I have to disagree with this. It sounds good on paper, however, in practice it would further limit fitting options for armor tankers. If you look at the slot layout for armor tank suits, they are extremely limited on the amount of High Slots, while shield tank suits generally have a decent number of lows. This is compounded by the fact that there are currently 10 out of 12 non armor non shield modules that are low slot modules.

This creates a disparity between fitting options of shields vs fitting options of armor. This would be further exacerbated if one began moving armor modules to high slots by limiting armor's ability to tank and gank.

While moving Reactive Plates to High Slots could free up a low slot, I don't feel like this would be the case. IMHO this would simply render the Reactive plates almost completely unused as armor tankers would tend to gravitate toward fitting damage modifiers instead if for no other reason than not being able to stack enough of the Reactive plates to make them viable.

While these are good arguments, I still don't feel like moving any armor modules to high slots is the proper route. Look at the Sentinel Suit. It only has 1 High Slot. Having these Reactive plates in high slots would not be beneficial at all. I would much rather be able to run a shield recharger, extender, or damage mod here and still be able to run the Reactive plates. Then again maybe the Sentinel should be reworked entirely because of this.

I'm sure other suits are extremely limited in their high slots, and would benefit more from having all armor as low slot modules. Then again maybe I'm wrong.

I do feel that the shield regulators should definitely be moved to high slots, along with several other utility type modules if my idea for the addition of a Medium slot is unfeasible.

At first this post made me mad due to it' being a "my uncle" story but as I thought about it, yes that guy is doing something we're not. If he has a pro logi then he has a free complex repper not to mention five open low slots. Does that mean the armor < shield argument is invalid? No. There's likely to be other reasons available for this man's superman like tanking skills not included in the story as well as the fact this doesn't solve armor for assaults, mediums, heavies, and sentinels. What I can say is that if being a pro logi makes armor tanking feasible then we have only reinforced the need for racial armor bonuses.

I think that if you start relying on reactives being in the high slots to balance the tank, there's something going slightly wrong - while shield regulators are found in the lows, they're not a massive thing that completely changes the balance. In addition, if there are movement penalty plates in both slots, you could be looking at huge speed penalties.
It's also had to balance, because if they're useful in the highslots you'd be able to achieve very very strong tanks by using a combination of highslots and lowslots just for your tank. While it reduces your other options, the tank strength would be a little beyond what I would see as reasonable. It would start exceeding heavy tanks as well (though you'd have similar speeds) because heavies have fewer slots.

I agree, they're unlikely to be used as the sole source of tank in a high slot, and therein lies the issue. To balance that out, the effectiveness would need to be such that using reactives or plate/rep combos as the sole source of tank would be ineffective, or setups with both would be overpowered.

I guess it does help a bit. I'm concerned that the tanks you'd get from dedicating all your slots to it would be too strong, but then you get a very large speed penalty...
It's not a great thing for heavies, but reactive plates were never going to help heavies that much anyway. I think heavies need their own love, more so than just armour tanking tweaks.
It's an interesting idea, even if it's difficult to balance properly. It definitely makes reactive plates have more of a role, and so I'm going to add this to P12.

I'm getting slightly confused with all the shield numbers coming in on armour tanks. Cross Atu - you're dual tanking, yeah?

Hypothetical Numbers For Current and New Armor Plates and Repairers

These are theoretical base stats for modules only, no skill buffs are taken into consideration. Any suggestions to CPU/PG usage are welcome.

Plates
Basic: ..............66 HP............ Penalty 3% Speed
Enhanced:.......99 HP.............Penalty 4.5% Speed
Complex:.........165 HP...........Penalty 7.5% Speed

Repairers
Basic:..............Regen 3 HP/s
Enhanced........Regen 6 HP/s
Complex..........Regen 9 HP/s

Ferroscale
Basic:..............33HP
Enhanced:......49HP
Complex:........82HP

Reactive
Basic:.............49HP........Penalty 1.5% Speed.......Regen 1.5 HP/s
Enhanced:......73HP.......Penalty 2.25% Speed......Regen 3 HP/s
Complex:........124HP.....Penalty 3.75% Speed.......Regen 4.5 HP/s

These numbers are probably OP or at least not the best option, but I gave it a shot. Notice how things progress evenly up the Tiers and that the numbers on the new plates are based off of the normal plates and repairers. What do you guys think.

Cheers

[P8] The new modules
The HP for the Reactive plates should be slightly higher than shields, with 3-4hp/s regen, putting it at slightly less regeneration than shields but slightly more HP.
The idea with Reactive plates is that they should either give more HP and less repair rate than a normal plate/rep fit, or they should give less HP and more repair rate than a normal plate/rep fit, so that there's a reason to use either depending on how you want to use your fitting.

Holy crap, those CPU/PG values are way to high! it would be impossible to fit more than 2 reactive plates on any suit and fitting 5 complex armor plates would leave you with no CPU for shields or even an ADV weapon, and I am calculating this using a Logistics suit!

I think this spreadsheet has some good numbers on the stats of things.

Spreadsheet

I think the best way to make it so reactives do not outstrip the armor/rep combo is to buff armor and repairers but give them higher CPU/PG costs, so in combination they would be more effective but also more expensive. This would also make specializing in pure armor and pure repair worthwhile.

I do agree the Gallente and Amarr should get a passive armor repair, I think Arkena accidentally left out the Amarr. Also the Amarr should get a Higher bonus than the Gallente since the Amarr have a very low shield recharge rate and a very long wait time. I think if a passive armor is added to these races it should be +3 Gallente and +5 Amarr, also removing the passive armor repair from the Logi Caldari and Logi Minmatar and giving them the +25% shield repair should be added. Also the Minmatar suits don't really work as I think they should, which is LOW HP, High speed, High regen. At the moment they get the 2nd highest HP of the medium suits, the Highest speed of all the suits, and the 2nd highest regen (but not by much), so balancing the Min suits would actually be outside the scope the armor repair dilemma. I think the Minmatar suits and the Gallente suits should have their speed buffed, their regen buffed and delay dropped slightly, and their HP dropped slightly.

While Im in favour of your arguments.

My concern is the dual tanking would confer an advantage that would out weigh the need for other modules, specifically damage mods. Especially since thier are shield regen bonuses on Assault suits.

Could I ask that you have a look at duel tanking in relation to your suggestions and see if dual tanking would create a situation were that strategy become overly optimal.

A lot of the suggested buff to reactive plates I'm seeing here are also drastic and even if they were moved to high slots they'd obsolete plate/rep comboes, and hell, you'd start seeing armour tanking shield suits if you did that stuff in the high slots.

Well my idea of a complex reactive would be to have the same or slightly higher hp than a Complex shield extender and a repair of 3, so in reality they would be like having a basic armor module with a ADV repairer, but I also think repairers should be buffed to 2/4/6 so in my "fantasy world" they would be like having a basic armor module + a slightly better basic repair module.

Repair bonuses aren't as effective as solid + bonuses, since repair is very low unless stacked. I don't think Gallente should get a HP buff per plate because then that would put them at very high HP even with low to no movement penalty, what they need ,in my opinion, is a movement speed buff by around 6% (With a 6% speed buff to the Minmatar suit also). The only suit that would deserve this buff is a Amarr suit.

I never said to remove their repair actually, I believe they should keep it at 1HP/s to slightly balance out the overall repairs, not completely but slightly, meaning no HP/s for Caldari suits sorry.

Well I am picking from my idea of racial bonuses so I am just going to list them all here so you can see what I have in mind for balancing suits racially.

Suit bonuses
Assault: 1% light damage increase per level
Logistics: 5% CPU/PG reduction on equipment per level
Scouts: 5% scan profile reduction per level
Heavies: 3% damage reduction per level

Caldari: Nada
Racial bonus: 5% shield regen per level
Racial bonus: 3% scan profile reduction


Gallente: 3% speed increase, 3 HP/s
Racial bonus: 1 HP/s repair per level
Racial bonus: 5% movement penalty reduction per level


Amarr: 5 HP/s, buff to overall EHP per suit
Racial bonus: 1HP/s repair per level
Racial bonus: 2% shield module efficacy increase per level 2% armor module efficacy per level

Minmatar: small reduction in EHP
Racial bonus: 5% shield regen per level
Racial bonus: 3% recharge delay reduction per level

The idea behing this is an obvious separation between role and race, each role is affected equally but each race gets a bonus pertaining to their defensive specialization, no bonuses in racial weapon to encourage changing weapons and not feeling penalized. Also no offensive bonuses to encourage offensive focused players to go assault, although 1% per level might seem low but people are willing to spend an extra 40K ISK for a 5% damage increase (Gek -> Duvolle is only 5% more damage) Also a 3% speed increase for the Gallente might seem like a lot but after stacking plates they would still be slow, and even with a movement penalty reduction on already small numbers the difference will slightly be felt by the armor user, but still remain relatively slower than a shield tank.

Also I decided a 6% speed buff would be to much and would require a speed buff for minmatar so 3% is fine.

On reactive plates I still think they should have Low HP- half the repair of a repairer of the same tier- low speed penalty- and medium CPU/PG costs compared to armor modules. The bonuses I suggested do not directly affect the usefulness of most modules, except the speed penalty reduction. And because I believe reactives should have low speed penalty a 25% reduction would barely be felt.

Yes the Gallente and Amarr are actually weaker than the Caldari and Minmatar, in my opinion and based on suit comparisons, unless the Gallente and Amarr take a huge hit in speed to "kinda" come close to the HP of both these suits.

I am a Gallente logistic, and once I get my lvl 5 CPU/PG skills and repair tool to level 5 I can equip a core focused repair tool without having to remove any modules or equipment. I tried this with other Logistic suits and they can't do this. Repair for Logistic suits I removed it as a racial because I believe Shield Logistic suits should not repair armor better than Armor suits, the best possible way I see to give them back this bonus is to give all suits a base repair tiered repair,and then reapply the logistic buff at a rate of 2HP/s instead of 5. Thus:

Caldari Assault: 0 HP/s
Caldari Logistic: 2 HP/s

Gallente Assault: 3 HP/s
Gallente Logistic: 5 HP/s

Minmatar Assault: 1 HP/s
Minmatar Logistic: 3 HP/s

Amarr Assault: 5 HP/s
Amarr Logistic: 7 HP/s

On the point of the hacking bonus, I honestly missed this one when going through the list on the top of my head. Although hacking speeds can be buffed suit side, I don't remember, but I recall the Logistics VK.0 (Chromosome) having a hacking speed bonus.

Have you seen the stats?
They're useless.

And also, they don't fix the core issues.

Don't forget about the Shield Energizer.. which will probably be another low module to help shield tankers even further. Smh

They're adding new stuff for shields.
I doubt it'll actually be effective given the stated purpose, but if it is good then that'll throw the balance even further out of whack.

At fanfest they said they'd reduce overall shield HP in favour of increasing regen. Somewhat like flux coils in EvE - which nobody uses, incidentally.

The Ferroscale Plates are basically equivalent to shield extenders....except they don't benefit from passive recharge of course so they have to make room for reppers so only hald as effective as shield extenders. CCP am I missing something or are you?

Not the enhanced.

Yes. You pretty much provided the solution.

A) Increase plating HP across the board.
B) Balance plating movement penalties.
C) Increase armor repairer rep amount, while causing it to diminish over time
D) Give Gallente (and Amarr?) dropsuits appropriate specs and bonuses
E) Overhaul these new plates

I would add

F) Move Armor Repairers to high slots

Lets be fair here, eve shields are vastly different things. The reason flux coils don't work is because shield regen is tied to a timer, not a set amount. What I'm trying to say spaceship shields go from zero to full in five minutes(for example), the more potential shields you have the more points you get per second. So if you're looking for high per second regen you have two options, less shields with a flux or more shields with about anything else. While mercenary shields receive a set amount of points per cycle.
I don't feel I've explained this well so I'm sorry. I'll try to answer any questions best as possible.

There's a rumour going around that flux coils will only affect base shield HP and not the HP given by extenders.
This would be quite bad. I'm going to see if I can get confirmation.

The Amarr dropsuits aren't particularly well done right now.

I haven't touched much on the state of Amarr suits because I haven't used them much personally.
It's possible to armour tank them, yeah - but I seem to encounter them as shield tankers more frequently. I'll edit to reflect the state of Amarr suits when I finish the next section.

More limited PG?
Dude, I wish my Gallente suit had the same CPU/PG you had.
You beat us on both CPU and PG, in addition for having one less slot meaning that you don't need as much.

Guys, I did not argue that rep tools or triage hives are the saving grace for armor tanking. There is no need to explain again why armor tanking is inferior to shield tanking, we have all come to that conclusion already.

What I'm saying is simply that armor tanking does have pros to it, and there's no shame in acknowledging them even in an 'armor is UP' thread. Fairness demands that the existence and situational effectiveness of rep tools and triage hives are mentioned when comparing armor to shields, otherwise the comparison risks to appear biased.

I think it's also fair to bring proto equipment into the equation when we are using HP values of complex mods in slot layouts of proto suits and dps values of proto ARs with AR proficiency at 5.

And what would you think if 2 heavies, each with 2000 HP and being repped for 100 HP/s are defending a choke point? You might think that's a little OP. I said keep it in mind when you propose changes like increasing armor HP by 100%.

Repping under fire is not about out healing the incoming dps, it's about letting you survive those few extra seconds longer that you need to take down the enemy before he takes down you. Then you reduce the incoming dps to 0 by going from partial to full cover, and heal up again before you engage the next enemy. Keep in mind the 600 dps of a proto AR are easily reduced to less than half of that when the enemy is engaging outside of optimal range and only 1 out of 2 bullets hit because you don't stand in the open like a moron.

There are also plenty of situations when not all people in a squad have line of sight to engage the enemy, or would block each other's shots in doing so. The repping logi is not a lost gun in that situation. And when you need every gun you can get, of course the logi player brings out his gun as well. You don't need a logi suit to use a repair tool, six assaults in a squad have 6 equipment slots at their disposal at any time.

You guys said it, it's all situational, and that's why nothing of this should simply be dismissed as a non-factor in this discussion. I think we can agree on that and I hope I made my point more clear now.

Cross Atu - Do you have Skype? I would very much like to invite you to a discussion group about balance. We're co-working on this thread and a few other similar length balance threads.
Your posts are consistently intelligent and I think we'd benefit from your opinion.

But it forces us to be very Logi dependant and our HP still doesn't exceed shields. In order for there to be a balance or a benefit different than shields we need to have equal HP and slightly lower repair, or Higher HP and lower repair.

Depending on how CCP chooses to fix the armor and shields debate, the high hp/low repair vs normal hp?/normal-high repair will be an option.

EDIT: Also before our higher HP ever means anything the damage to explosives, and armor killers needs to be toned down because we would technically need 35-50% higher HP than a shield suit to balance how fast it takes to take each of us down.

I am rigging my results, I omitted it just to create a bias to promote different playstyles. Yes you can use armor reppers, but if you are stacking regen then you are basically trying to turn your armor into shields and might as well just use shields. The whole plus I see of armor is the ability to have protection while stacking damage mods. Yes it is slow and you will just get grenaded, but as you see, you can indeed just stack 2 Armor plates to get the same health and then stack full damage mods, which the Caldari can't do.

Yes he can hide and regen, but thats the whole point of shields, hide and regen. The whole point I see with armor is you kill him so fast he can't regen. And then inbetween battles your logi or your other armor tanker friend both repair each other and move on.

Is It? The role of the Assault is like the DPS role in any other MMO. It's to apply Damage and apply it fast. If you wanted to tank damage then you would stack all shields and all armor or roll a Heavy.

If you are defending a location and the enemy is coming, you want to apply damage and apply it fast. So why would damage mods not trump everything. i seem to remember people losing their minds about the old LR and damage mods and how it melted people's faces.

Yes, but you can't just balance on solo play. Watch any pub match, the side that doesn't play as a team gets ROFLstomp Redlined almost immediately. its how the game works. The point is that 1v1 with alittle distance and no cover, the armor tank will wreck the shield tank and there should be some downside to that. And that the shield tank is more mobile is the downside, just like the scout can't stand up to the Assault, but the scout is faster. and can do the same things you have said. Should we ban the scout class?

Looking back to MMOs, you have Melee DPS and Kiting DPS (Kiting means to skirmish). Given again the job of Assault is to apply DPS, Shields with their regenitive nature are all about Skirmishing, you attack, you fall back, Attack, you are highly mobile. They are best used against people with NO REGEN because that is the nature of Skirmishing. if you attack and fall back and they just regen, you gain nothing.

Armor PLATES. HEAVY PLATES you wrap around your body, they make you slow. but in return you carry more firepower. So yes, you should have a higher EHP, no regen (Because really. Repairing an armor plate in 3 seconds? It can take hours and days at a repair shop). But you deal more damage and are more stationary. Just like a Heavy.

You are pretty funny, I like it

Look, check the high slots. You have Scanner, Shield and Damage. Scanner doesn't mean anything in midrange combat. I can see its use in sniper and shotgun close range building combat.

So that leaves you with a choice. Damage mods or Shields. For high slots, pick one. If you pick damage mods, you are an Armor Tank or a Speed Tank or Terrain/Profile Tank (Sniper). If you pick Shields, then you go from there.

So talk the "Slayer" talk all you want, Until CCP adds new High Slot modules

Damage or Shield.


[Edit]: Yea yea yea, you can run Damage AND shield. but you are gimping your tank.

It only happens when you jump, if it is the same glitch from Chromosome.

While very true that all gain better effectiveness from team work they do not gain equally. 5 shield tankers gain more damage some tactics and maybe ammo support. 5 armor tankers, if they are set up right, gain the exact same damage and ammo plus tactics. But they also gain enhanced ability to repair. Enough people together and this is many times higher than shields could ever reach. These make the 2 "different. "

Amarr has far superior PG/CPU, so while Gallente people may have to run around with Enhanced with maybe 1 complex mod, we can usually roll the opposite (Lots of complex with maybe 1 enhanced).

It balances out.. Eventually..

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94926&find=unread
I'll see you all in two weeks.

Because we shouldnt be forced to lose a low slot for armor repair, it should be an option. Also the differencw between 2 damage mods and 3 is 6.5%, so 3 damage mods is pretty good.

Great postings. I read the initial postings and didnt read the 29 pages after. So I have to ask was there any theorycrafting in the subsequent postings that took the shields of the armor tanker into account? If this is done then the discrepancy isn't as terrible as it looks. Although it still significantly favors shields.

Go on...

I wrote a post about it https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1086580#post1086580, that along with the changes you posted above would be really good for all suits, and even better for armor tanks. Armor tanking suits always nerd to have more HP than their shield counterparts, the fact our HP is the same means that damage to us needs to be the same but it is not, and it should not, but we should have a reason to actually have so much damage incoming.

Was playing academy yesterday and I noticed most new players are Gallente. I really hope they fix the suits soon because that might be part of the bad NPE.

It might even go as far as to where new players are told specifically not to level up Gallente and Amarr suits by other, experienced, players leading to a greater division between armor and shield tanking by player count alone. And then of course comes the part where the player base becomes comfortable with the majority being shield tankers that when armor tanking becomes useful players will cry OP and thus we will be nerfed So the sooner the fixes come the better.

EDIT: I feel I am threading close to the tinfoil debacle.

Well it depends on the mindset of both players but,
lets say a Caldari suits equip 3 slots with armor modules, then we have a Gallente suit and equips 3 armor modules this leaves him with the decision of sacrificing his only form of repair to his main tank for a bit of HP or sacrificing that HP for a small repair if he goes with the repairer, his overall repairing and HP is actually lower than the Caldari suit, while if he goes with armor his HP is only a tiny bit higher than the Caldari. If we had passive armor repair and some buffs to modules, then armor repairers would be a choice not a requirement just like regulators are to shields.

Although I personally think that buffing armor via racial bonuses would be the best option since it gives armor the choice of always being higher in HP, and makes it more significant to us and at the same time it gives us the ability to sacrifice it for repairers and active tank, or to build on it for buffer tanking.

I want to just tease out that point you made there Cross about armor and how the points that logis can get from armor tanks, in a way, shouldn't be disregarded as a side-benefit of an armor meta. Theoretically, armor tanking teams SHOULD be able to get orbitals faster, and in a way are REWARDED for taking extra damage, and even dieing in battle, if they can revive their teammates into survivable situations. Suits with more than 2x the armor HP as shield HP are better oriented to make use of injectors anyway.

Also, I'm spamming this in a lot of places, I REALLY think 'range' is an underestimated form of 'resistances' right now. Somebody with a weapon that allows them to both stack damage mods for ~20% extra effectiveness, while also taking -25% to -50% damage at >50m from AR can make the speed penalty from armor, and the slower armor regen not as much of an issue.

Please, please, please stop coming up with new module ideas. I'm not saying the ideas aren't creative, because they are, or have no use, because they could, but they sideline examining the actual problem. The problem is that those who spec into shields have a competitive advantage over those who choose armor. Until that ceases to be true adding new wrinkles with modules will only complicate the issue.
For example. It was put forward that the ferro and reactive plates would solve the armor tanking issue in uprising 1.2. They did not. The issue is a core issue and cannot be solved without looking at the the most basic components. Until repair rates, penalties and other armor issues are fixed there can be no magic-bullet-module that can help.
It's like fixing a motorcycle engine by adding a sidecar.



Tracking is a great idea to bring down from eve and if the modules found their way to high slots it would be even better. Though it seems many of the examples provided all seem to put two opponents at certain ranges from each other with little cover in between which is not how I've found Dust to play like. Very rarely do I get into a distances match, most of the time there's darting into cover. Cover, a shield tankers best friend.

Adding full-fledged tank mods to the high slots worries me, generally. They're not hugely powerful as such in this instance, but comparatively I'd say they're more powerful than shield regulators and combining that with a buff to other armour tanking capabilities tends to make me worry about buffs going too far.

It's tricky balancing a full on tank mod like a reactive plate in what is, effectively, a utility slot.

I completely agree with this.
That would be the best way.
Perhaps if reactive plates were rejigged as resistance modules then they'd have their own part to play.

What about some kind of nerf to shields? The time to kill is too long in this game (current explosives excluded). Limit the amount of shield extenders you can fit perhaps?

I think that the time to kill for the higher end, i.e. prototype, suits is fine. It's rarely instant or quick apart from with particularly high damage, and they can soak up a fair bit of normal fire.
The problem comes for the lower tiered suits. They have minimal HP compared to the prototype suits, and due to the way weapon scaling works dps remains similar (though it does increase) as you go up through the tiers. This means that while you can have a longish TTK for the protosuits, it's much much shorter for the militia and standard suits.

It's a little more of a problem when you need to restock your gear like you do - it's more frustrating to be instagibbed, even in a relatively cheap suit, than it is when that suit is free. That's not really a balance concern though.

The other problem with low-end gear coming up against high end gear is that the slightly lower dps, in addition to being used to softer targets, means that the high end gear seems practically invincible to the average newbie - A prototype suit can bully through a substantial amount of low-grade militia fire.

When thinking about TTK I would much prefer the toughness of lower tier gear to be increased specifically rather than do a blanket increase. Of course, with weapon nerfing TTK increases anyway, so over time I think we can expect TTK to go up a little bit.

I saw that. What the hell is wrong with people?

That was a rhetorical question lol. But as always you hit the nail on the head.

More like 567/461 at most.

you knwo they have a program that calculates fittings for you now. DEVs put the link up on tuesday.

Don't gang up on me I did that already on my Dual tanking post, but I will provide some links to fitting tools with comparisons of every suit whilst pure shield tanking, pure armor tanking, and pure dual tanking.

This is a modified version of the 3.3.1 fitting tool to include the new armor plate values. Going to use the Gallente and Caldari Assault suits only because the Amarr is meant to dual tank, only the Minmatar logistics has enough slots to dual tank, and the Gallente and Caldari logistics suits do not have an even slot distribution.

@ Cross Atu, I see what you mean now about costs and what they sacrifice etc etc, I seemed to have gotten tunnel vision when I was looking at a dual tanked suit vs a purely tanked suit that I didn't realize the costs of running dual tanked. Although a dual tanked Caldari is far better than a dual tanked Gallente, but that is mostly because of the bonus to shield recharge and no passive armor repairs.

Caldari Assault dual tanked

CPU- 344/394
PG- 72/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 392
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.72
Sprint- 6.94
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 945 | ISK: 91,800 | AUR: 0

Gallente Assault dual tanked

CPU- 267/394
PG- 62/79
Shield- 368
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 993 | ISK: 83,355 | AUR: 0

Caldari Assault shield tanked

CPU- 261/394
PG- 55/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 150
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 5
Sprint- 7.35
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 703 | ISK: 80,385 | AUR: 0

Gallente Assault armor tanked

CPU- 105/394
PG- 29/79
Shield- 150
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 775 | ISK: 70,530 | AUR: 0

If you are moving around and dodging, even if your opponent hits you with 10 shots, out of 60 (due to missing and spray and pray, for lower skilled players that number is much lower) your shields will start recovering before he finishes reloading.

I dare say you can take on 4 people at the same time and consistently in CQC just by being mobile and spraying a GEK because your tank is so effective! but, this is not OP because it is by design you need max level skills to be able to tank like this, and it cost you 100k ISK.

at longer ranges (preferably mid-range) you become a GOD due to damage fall off your shields and armor will take almost no damage from all save a sniper or forgun gun

wel, those are designed for OHK, cant argue with you there. my point is with an AR and this set up, its hard for people of a lower teir to compete. however, using shotguns, nades, forguns, and snipers are still effective. resulting in this build NOT being OP.

indeed, facing opponents in ADV gear can cut the life of proto gear very short. im just going to sum up my mentality this way. i was measuring the effective life span of the build against that of the basic suit. since nothing gets lower than milita. how many miltia suits is this proto of max level suit worth?

it occured to me that the aforementioed set up can easily decimate militia suits in seconds, in fact it can decimate them so fast that even fighting 3-4 of them at the same time isnt sufficient. unless of course your standing still for 2.2 seconds.

the thing is when medium frames have similar of equal ehp to those of a heavy they bring the only advantage a heavy has without any of the draw backs.

although turn speed is soon to be fixed, they still have a higher movement speed and smaller hit boxes than a heavy. So, when a medium frame can tank as hard as a heavy and still move at mach speed, with a small hit box its a problem.

it literally defeats the point to a heavy being a heavy. I haven't used the fitting calculator, but i added up the numbers my self. with maximum shield and armor core upgrades at lvl5, and shield and armor extenders and plates at lvl5 respectively. both the proto basic and proto sentinel achieve the same ehp of 1580. but at the cost of mobility (you literally move slower than a turret).
under miltia AR fire a heavy with the aforementioed ehp dies in 3.7 secs, the builds mentioed above survive up to 2.2 sec but move 2x as fast.

they have ~40% less ehp. but make up for that in almost double the movement speed, and as i mentioned a smaller hit box.

I'm pretty sure I've seen confirmation that hitboxes are different sizes based on suit size.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1141246#post1141246



I thought I've seen it before this, but this wasn't too long ago.

if you increase the hit box sizes, then tanking with a minmintar suit will be pointless.

The minmintar race shield tanks more than armor because this can help them to keep their movement speed high and still tank reasonably.

Agreed although 4/3 for the Minmatar seems more logical. But then again I like their 5/2.