Is the lock on the district eternal or is it unlocked after some time?

so if the attacker loses, all the clones sent on the attack are lost even if you were to send like 250 clones since 150 are taken no matter what if you lose leaving you with 100 then the enemy takes 50% leaving you with 50 which then just die in the coldness of space.

there should be a way to save those 50 clones

if i'm doing this math right that is

Is the lock on the district eternal or is it unlocked after some time?

wow, from 20mil to 80mil per clone package... neat way to get the smaller corps completly out of PC, thanx guys! *sarcasm*

We did the math and for corporations that have enough active members to play planetary conquest they should be able to afford this price. It might take them a week or so to get the ISK from scratch, but they can.

ill admit it fucks up smaller corps
they will already have a hard time holding 1 district the price for re-entry should they get the boot will keep them out which imo is a bad move

ill admit it fucks up smaller corps
they will already have a hard time holding 1 district the price for re-entry should they get the boot will keep them out which imo is a bad move

We did the math and for corporations that have enough active members to play planetary conquest they should be able to afford this price. It might take them a week or so to get the ISK from scratch, but they can.

It will be challenging but not impossible. It's kind of like small corps in EVE saving up for their first POS. Its a big investment for them and at the same time very exciting. However unlike POS's provided you can field a strong 16 man team you have just as much chance of maintaining your district as the big guys.

In this example I have smartened right up, trained more skills, practiced against others, bought the right gear, and am going to win:

• I attack your district with 150 clones.
• Your district has the full 300 clones and a production facility which generates 100 clones per day.
• I win by MCC destruction and only lose 50 clones in the process, because I am now pro.
• The defender lost 100 clones during the battle.
• Because I won the defender does not generate their 100 clones on the next reinforcement cycle.
• They would have generated 100 clones though so I get 50 of them; 50% of what would have been generated.
• I return home with 150 clones, plus ISK from the biomass, and plus loot from the battle.

It will be challenging but not impossible. It's kind of like small corps in EVE saving up for their first POS. Its a big investment for them and at the same time very exciting. However unlike POS's provided you can field a strong 16 man team you have just as much chance of maintaining your district as the big guys.

ill admit it fucks up smaller corps
they will already have a hard time holding 1 district the price for re-entry should they get the boot will keep them out which imo is a bad move

Foxfour, im sorry but i dont think you are getting my point. We (corporations) have a flawed way of getting isk, donations arent the answer, taxes are. Until that and as i said before, relying on the charity of enough players wont get small corps, poor corps, into PC.

It will become an ISK sink.

Don't the defenders lose an additional 50 to the ether for the min clone loss?

So... What region is PC starting in?

This is the purpose of DUST.

If you go back to the earliest announcements, CCP was very particular that they wanted Dust to suck money out of EVE once the two economies were interwoven.

Foxfour, im sorry but i dont think you are getting my point. We (corporations) have a flawed way of getting isk, donations arent the answer, taxes are. Until that and as i said before, relying on the charity of enough players wont get small corps, poor corps, into PC.

then whats the point of corps in dust with no EVE backing even trying to play?
again.....screws the little guy

With these numbers a won match will give you 12 million ISK at a minimum. 80k ISK in biomass * 150 clones lost.

On top of that you get both standard ISK payout and loot. The loot will for the most part be useless until we get trading though, but the standard ISK payout can easily exceed 1 million ISK per player, if the other team is in full prototype gear.

So overall each player on the winning side are guaranteed to get at least 1,75 million ISK, if the other team is in full prototype gear. They might even get more than that, since the standard ISK payout might be bigger than what I outlined. On top of that there will be loot (which will be more or less useless to start with).

With these numbers a won match will give you 12 million ISK at a minimum. 80k ISK in biomass * 150 clones lost.

On top of that you get both standard ISK payout and loot. The loot will for the most part be useless until we get trading though, but the standard ISK payout can easily exceed 1 million ISK per player, if the other team is in full prototype gear.

So overall each player on the winning side are guaranteed to get at least 1,75 million ISK, if the other team is in full prototype gear. They might even get more than that, since the standard ISK payout might be bigger than what I outlined. On top of that there will be loot (which will be more or less useless to start with).

The biomass ISK payment replaces the normal ISK payment you get from instant battles.

So biomass + loot + possible stolen clones going to the corp

Just read post #32 (my bad)

Can we get a Dev to confirm that if you win. you get all of the following:
1. "Standard" or "Regular" ISK payouts like we see in pub matches
2. ISK from the Biomass of clones
3. Loot from the battle

Can you confirm that a winning player is likely to walk away with about 1.75m ISK?

Apologies for being so dense.

That's not what you answered the other day?

Now it won't be worth it? 12 million ISK is nothing.

You can't really use the loot for this math until we get trading. Clones stolen makes up for the clones lost in the battle, and is not a profit for the individual in the match.

With only 12 million split on the 16 players, the individual will be at a huge ISK loss each battle.

80m ISK / 16 man tema = 5m ISK per person. Most people can get 5m ISK in about 2/3 nights worth of pubs...

Where did I say what?

true only if pubs were actually fun to play atm
fighting other corps is the only fun thing in dust atm

So what we are going to do is let you always at any time buy clone starter packages from Genolution. So go ahead, grab as many districts as you think you can hold, but you will have to defend them or you are just going to lose them and have spent the initial ISK for nothing.

Q) Can starter packs of clones be used on your own district?
A) If you feel like spending all that ISK, yes.

Im sorry but you are wrong in that assumption, you assume that with the current flawed way of corporations getting isk ( by donation) works with everyone polling in, but thats not the case as there are no doubt some cheap members in any corp and also i have no way to track who has donated (this seriously needs to get implemented).Without taxes and just relying in the good faith of all the corp members any small to medium corp (mine is i think at 35 members) is at a risk of not getting the isk needed to start in PC. And as you just said "for corporations that have enough active members", by active you cant infer donations. Im sorry for the rant but all i see is mega corps and alliances who already are rich beyond my wildest ideas just getting richer, and small corps who arent able to get donations but have active members, completly out of one of the strong points of why me and certainly many players have kept playing Dust, for not what it is now, but for what it can become.

My post #32 does that no?

The only ISK payment from a match is the number of clones destroyed * biomass value.

Keep in mind the losing side needs to lose a minimum of 150 clones, but the attackers are going to lose clones killing those and they are added on top.

So say you win. You kill 150 clones and lose 100 doing it. That is 250 clones killed at a rate of 80,000 ISK. That is 20M ISK divided by 16 players for 1.25M ISK per player.

On top of that you get 50% of the loot from the other team.

true only if pubs were actually fun to play atm
fighting other corps is the only fun thing in dust atm

Disagree

Taxes will help and I hope are added into the game, but if your corp can sustain itself without taxes than you may need to rethink you management style.

If you can't get your corp to pull together 80m ISK than you need to either reconsider your corps involvement with PC or start recruiting.

80m ISK / 16 man tema = 5m ISK per person. Most people can get 5m ISK in about 2/3 nights worth of pubs...

Foxfour, im sorry but i dont think you are getting my point. We (corporations) have a flawed way of getting isk, donations arent the answer, taxes are. Until that and as i said before, relying on the charity of enough players wont get small corps, poor corps, into PC.

I didn't know the clones the winners lost would count as biomass reward as well. That makes it slightly higher than 12 million ISK, but I still don't think that's enough of a reward to the winning side.

Also you said (or implied) that we would have standard ISK payouts in this post (my biomass number is actually wrong in thread, just ignore that):

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=667045#post667045

Money sinks will never work in dust or eve why... Because this game is all about getting as much isk as possabile so why would Anyone take part in a isk sink it. defeats the whole core of eve

so nobody else is bothered by the : You win, you're stuck.
Nobody else thinks inter-region fights are gonna be discouraged by the offered "Counter Attack Day" due to the lock after a district is taken ?

Taking a district should prompt the corp with a "'congrats ! you took the district. So, what RT would you like ?"

Yes, thank you. I was in the middle of my post when you replied and then I went back in to edit my fail.

Well, someone beat me too it.

The absence of corporation management tools and interface has been an ongoing irritation. Pertinent to this discussion is:

-the inability to set tax rates
-the inability to track player donations
-the inability to set roles and limit access to the main wallet while preserving other helpful abilities of directors (the only role available)
-the inability to email your corporation en masse (unless you have an EVE side director or CEO -even then you have to do a work around).

CCP you have done very little to enable corporations to manage and develop their economic interests and I feel that your internal calculations about PC required a lot of unjustifiable presumptions.

At a minimum, you have just raised the entry requirements to PC in a way that disadvantages small and medium sized corporations (assuming an even donation rate across the player base).

My apologies for the confusion, I appear to have misread your post.

We will keep an eye on how these things go post launch and continue to balance the numbers. Hopefully with how open we have been with this design we have proven we are willing and able to make changes based on feedback. That won't stop with the launch of planetary conquest on May 6th. Our roadmap specifically has balancing and iterating on Planetary Conquest as something we continue to do post release.

I assume the 1 hour window will remain the same so if you were able to attack in that window, you should be able to defend in that window until you are prompted to change the attack window. (am I missing the question?)

Factional Warfare fights are going to become a much bigger thing with Uprising and, we hope, be used a lot more for this sort of thing when not fighting corporation battles for planetary conquest.

Warning: I ramble a lot and I often dont make sense.



I am seriously conflicted about what this means.

I like how, with the new price, it makes it so if you are a large corp with a lot of ISK and you decide to just start throwing your money at something the game will happily let you and it might work for the short term. Having districts maxed out with clones right off the bat (or close to it) If you decide to do it is a good way to ensure you can hold said district (at least for a day or two). Its a shortcut based on spending far more ISK than is sane, which I dont mind as long as it cant be kept up forever (in which case its annoying).

I am worried about what this does to smaller corps trying to get their feet wet. I know you said you will be watching this. But I guess a good question is why do you only have the one clone pack to buy? Why not have two packs. A Starter Genolution Pack, usable only if you dont have a district yet and at a cheaper cost (Maybe not 20M, as that might be a little low but still lower than 80M). And then a Standard Genolution Pack at 80M ISK than can be used even with a district. It should lower the barrier to entry a little while still making it tough to buy your way into a huge foothold.

I really dont like how.. based on my understanding of the Clone Packs, Someone could purchase a clone pack at any point and by using it to attack could then bypass the attrition rate. Anywhere could be attacked by anyone regardless of where they are located in the region without suffering from the normal limitations of attrition. I dont think allowing someone to just pay ISK to bypass normal limitations is a good thing. If you use the Genolution clone pack to attack someone at least have it suffer some kind of attrition based on the nearest district you own (unless you dont own one).

Spending isk to spead up the process of getting clones where you have them? or expanding faster? I am Okay with that. Its a game about mercs. Spending more money should be able to speed things along a little. Spending isk to be able to ignore a part of the game and strategy? And attack people you otherwise couldnt have attacked at all due to distance? Not okay with that.

There's no need for a tax because when you go over the clone limit on a district the extra clones are sold automatically which then funds your corp without needing to tax your members

I wish you guys would reconsider the starting price.

There's no need for a tax because when you go over the clone limit on a district the extra clones are sold automatically which then funds your corp without needing to tax your members

Well, someone beat me too it.

The absence of corporation management tools and interface has been an ongoing irritation. Pertinent to this discussion is:

-the inability to set tax rates
-the inability to track player donations
-the inability to set roles and limit access to the main wallet while preserving other helpful abilities of directors (the only role available)
-the inability to email your corporation en masse (unless you have an EVE side director or CEO -even then you have to do a work around).

CCP you have done very little to enable corporations to manage and develop their economic interests and I feel that your internal calculations about PC required a lot of unjustifiable presumptions.

At a minimum, you have just raised the entry requirements to PC in a way that disadvantages small and medium sized corporations (assuming an even donation rate across the player base).

So you don't see a use for a source of income not relating to PC for, oh I dunno, corps not involved in PC?

@KatanaPC & @xLTShinySidesx:

What terms are you using to define "small" and "niche" corps?

I agree with you that I want small and niche corps to be able to compete in PC. Scrap together 80m ISK and then with your elite niche players, hold your single district and use your alliance members to help you hold it like you said. You literally have over 30 days of playing before PC launches. If you truly wanted to be a part it, it seems very reasonable to me that each of your "dedicated" and "niche" corp mates can generate 10m ISK

(quotation marks were not used in a derogatory or demeaning way)

They don't have any way to share gear right now. What else would they spend it on?

This is why it was necessary:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=671394#post671394

Without the increase, the largest corps were going to be able to buy EVERYTHING on the first day by using shell corporations. This is not speculation- we already heard that a number of big boys were planning to do so.

This at least slows them down and gives a few other corporations a shot at getting a foot in the door.

The solution, from a small corp standpoint, is recruitment, leadership, and peer pressure.

If your corp can't raise 80M ISK, then you really didn't have a shot under the old system either.

I'm not trying to be mean, just accurate.

My corp has 35 members.
I cannot force a good player to donate, nor can i control when he did.

Pretty much this. Like FoxFour said, we've done the math. If your corp can't save 5-10 mil per player to pay for 2 or 3 starter packs then you probably can't sustain being involved in PC anyway.

We like that its a big group investment too, diplomacy and recruitment is as much a part of PC as the ground battle.

This is why it was necessary:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=671394#post671394

Without the increase, the largest corps were going to be able to buy EVERYTHING on the first day by using shell corporations. This is not speculation- we already heard that a number of big boys were planning to do so.

This at least slows them down and gives a few other corporations a shot at getting a foot in the door.

The solution, from a small corp standpoint, is recruitment, leadership, and peer pressure.

If your corp can't raise 80M ISK, then you really didn't have a shot under the old system either.

I'm not trying to be mean, just accurate.

I'll go into details later on but just one thing.

Having a district being locked when it's captured strikes me as very very odd and not very rewarding at all...
A corp that manage to take a district from an enemy will hardly get the chance to set the time of battle to the time they wish as the former owner will take advantage of this 24h lock time to strike back at a time he knows suits him better.

So, you get a district, and you dont even have the luxury of defending it when you want ?

This wouldnt be a problem if we all lived in the same part of the world. But when members of a corp will invest more time than usual in Dust 514 to steal a district of interest and fight at a unusual time, they wont have the chance to change the time they will defend it when they manage to conquer it ? Even after spending millions of ISK worth of clones and fee of genolution clone transport ?

To be honest, i dont see the point in adding this. From the DB i understand it's to avoid corps taking a lot of district day one and switching their RT so massive time blocks are created instantly. This is all good and nice, but it will only work if people actually go and attack them. And with everything corps will have to do day one, there's a good chance that the first 24h will be pretty much fight free. And then, everyone will change its districts RT.

But so be it. maybe this is a good idea when taking an unoccupied district. But for districts taken after an actual fight, i would have gone the opposite way and give the new owner a 24h free of fight period during which he could set RT peacefully. That sounds like the LEAST you should get from successfully assaulting a district.


This has only one goal : Create and permanent war and flipping of districts. On the paper it sounds nice. But it may very well kill the persistence. As if you dont have a chance to hold one to what you own, then it's not persistence. it's just glorified corp battles with no meaning. Taking that district, losing it again, taking the other losing. Losing another one coz even when defending successfully, you end getting screwed.

Not liking this even a bit.

Rest of the changes, i already discussed. the change to clone generation is close to the 75 we were all already working on and wont change anything to the wear off effect of attackers on defenders. And wont rescue defenders when winning. So overall, PC becomes a "Go,dont think, attack" and then a "uh ? dont think. strike back" mode.

It will become an ISK sink.

@KatanaPT & @xLTShinySidesx:

What terms are you using to define "small" and "niche" corps?

I agree with you that I want small and niche corps to be able to compete in PC. Scrap together 80m ISK and then with your elite niche players, hold your single district and use your alliance members to help you hold it like you said. You literally have over 30 days of playing before PC launches. If you truly wanted to be a part it, it seems very reasonable to me that each of your "dedicated" and "niche" corp mates can generate 10m ISK

(quotation marks were not used in a derogatory or demeaning way)

blame your member for being cheap

This is such a load of crap!!

If they would go back to one genolution pack for each corp if you don't own a district we don't have this problem.

But since they've made it unlimited genolution clones, you're right... All the big corps will snatch up all the districts day 1

they are having trouble with members benevolently donating to the corp (i assume)

What member? Imagine i have 10 guys in corp chat saying they donated 1mil each, and i go to corp walled and only saw 1mil donated. Shall i expel them all for lying? Promote them for being dirty bastars? Say thank you and go away? Im not saying you arent correct, which you are, you have nailed it in the head, too many players being cheap. But no way of controlling who isnt.

Please note the bolded and underlined phrase.

The big corps were going to found a million shell corporations that had 20M ISK in the bank and those shell corps were going to each buy ONE starter pack and take over ONE district.

They were then going to "lose" those districts to the "mother" corporation.

With trying to encourage people to donate, it would be nice if I could see a record of donations, and then keep those players in mind when the time comes for the actual corp battles.

If someone doesn't donate, you don't let them in your squads.

Currently I can't see. I can just ask and pray that people are honest.

This is such a load of crap!!

If they would go back to one genolution pack for each corp if you don't own a district we don't have this problem.

But since they've made it unlimited genolution clones, you're right... All the big corps will snatch up all the districts day 1

Most of our alliance corps have 4-25 recruits, we're the biggest with 44 members but only about 15 active players

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just clear.

I do not see an "alliance" underneath your corporation name. That means you are in a "coalition".

Alliance has a very specific, game mechanics-driven definition in New Eden.

This! ....

That's fine but at least our small corps would be given the opportunity to get in, now we aren't which just makes the problem worse.

We have an alliance of 8 corps that are banded together to help defend our districts, with the 20 mil isk starting point, it would have been sustainable but at 80 it just isn't.

Correct, I'm just a little angry right now.

My advice is to merge the corporations into just one or two.

I'm not saying this to be mean, just practical. If you look at successful EVE-side corporations, those that hold territory are HUGE and they are part of HUGE alliances.

--
Here's a link to the largest alliance in EVE:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Goonswarm_Federation/corporations

This alliance has 190 member corporations. Their largest corporation, GoonWaffe, has over 4,000 members.
--

It might also help to get an EVE alliance to take you in. That will, as the games tie closer together, give you certain advantages.

Please see this post here

You could consolidate your corps into one (mine). Or join an Alliance (mine).

Look, I understand the whole shell corp thing but the mad dash for districts is going to be worse now and cost the corps less money... Before the change, these corps would be losing 20 mil isk for every "shell corp" taking a district for them, now they won't be losing any money because they don't have to go fight and take the district away from there shell corp.

All raising the price does is keep the little guys out.

Every argument I've seen against my stance has been from big corps.

I undertsand wanting to make the bigger corps work a little more, but raising the price by 60M ISK just completely takes us smaller corp's out of the game. The corp I'm in currently has around 30 members, 5 of which are pretty active. I doubt 5 of us could raise that much.

I undertsand wanting to make the bigger corps work a little more, but raising the price by 60M ISK just completely takes us smaller corp's out of the game. The corp I'm in currently has around 30 members, 5 of which are pretty active. I doubt 5 of us could raise that much.

You do seem to be forgetting that now, for every district, the ebil big corps have to shell out 80 mill rather than 20 - cutting the potential initial land grab by 75%

I doubt 5 of you could hold a single district...

I undertsand wanting to make the bigger corps work a little more, but raising the price by 60M ISK just completely takes us smaller corp's out of the game. The corp I'm in currently has around 30 members, 5 of which are pretty active. I doubt 5 of us could raise that much.

I doubt 5 of you could hold a single district...

Money sinks will never work in dust or eve why... Because this game is all about getting as much isk as possabile so why would Anyone take part in a isk sink it. defeats the whole core of eve

I made this post in the general forum, but I'll make it here too since its in response to the dev blog.

My concern is, the cost of individual clones makes the difference between gear costs negliable. A starter clone costs over 500k ISK. So this means, a clone with equipment would range between like 510k and like 1M or so.

Point is, the balance between proto gear and lower gear made sense when the price increase was 10k to like 500k, 50X price for an advantage. But when its simply 2X, it wouldnt remotely make ANY sense to not use proto gear.

So whats the point of the lower gear even existing? Are you really gunna suit a 500k clone with cheap gear, ever? This also means that any corp with half a brain will only allow soldiers who have enough SP to run proto gear to use their clones. So now, newer players are pretty much cut off from enjoying the meta aspects of the game.

PC was already going to be an ISK sink due to arms races. Youd be throwing your best gear at PC, regardless of it a dude could only fit an advanced suit or a proto. But now, if I'm a corp, theres no way Im letting me fight in PC cause I dont have the SP to use proto gear. And Im not putting 10-50k gear in a 500k clone.

It looks to me, with this current system of clones costing much more and the attacker gaining so much when they win, that defending is almost pointless. Corps can just jump district to district and gain huge amounts of clones, ISK, and loot and not bother to risk losing it by defending a district. Since attacking can be so incredibly profitable, what does someone gain by holding a district, or even many districts in a system beyond gaining clones from unsuccessful attackers?

I undertsand wanting to make the bigger corps work a little more, but raising the price by 60M ISK just completely takes us smaller corp's out of the game. The corp I'm in currently has around 30 members, 5 of which are pretty active. I doubt 5 of us could raise that much.

I doubt 5 of you could hold a single district...

A. It will cost you 80M to jump around without owning a district.
B. You need a district to take back the clones you won.
C. Owning a district generates you ISK which allows you to expand.

We don't want to consolidate, we like our corps and that's why we did the coalition.. All of our corps are small friend based corps that want to get all the fun out of the game, however, I feel like things here run like they do in our government, the fat get fatter and the poor get poorer.

)

My corp has 35 members.
I cannot force a good player to donate, nor can i control when he did.

We actually will have a round table at Fanfest this year specifically dedicated to discussing this stuff. Discussing what DUST corporations need to manage their corporations and more than that what DUST players need to communicate and enhance the social experience. So if you know any DUST players coming to Fanfest please be sure to have them keep a lookout for that round table. :)

Please bear in mind that the Factional Warfare (FW) mechanic is also changing.

Your corp will be able to participate in FW battles that affect territorial control between the big factions.

Small corps are not cut off from the persistent universe of New Eden, just from PC.

Corps that couldn't raise 80M from their members didn't have a snowball's chance in PC anyway even if the price had stayed the same.

Please bear in mind that the Factional Warfare (FW) mechanic is also changing.

Your corp will be able to participate in FW battles that affect territorial control between the big factions.

Small corps are not cut off from the persistent universe of New Eden, just from PC.

Corps that couldn't raise 80M from their members didn't have a snowball's chance in PC anyway even if the price had stayed the same.

Are you accounting for the loss of clones needed to send to take the shell corp district?

You're still missing my point though, yeah it does make it a little less attractive for big corps to take multiple districts but it makes it impossible for a small corp to take one at all.

Looks to me like clones are of little purpose. I rarely if ever see a MCC match win through clone count. Even more so in Corp battles as people are more aware of picking up their squad members.

I don't see any corps having more than the lowest number of clones since losing to clone count is quite rare and the clones themselves are quite expensive.

It doesn't seem to bear any advantage to having more clones.

Also there doesn't seem to be any advantage to being in PC from the dust side other than having some gudfights. The costs seem more prohibitive than what you get out of them. It will be an isk sink that I don't see having many rewards.

.
.

Our coalition has backing from large corporations, we were going to be able to hold our districts.

Day One:
Mama Corp buys its starter pack. The Babies do the same, all eighty of them. Thirty of those fail because of timing.

Day Two:
Mama Corp attacks Baby 1 using most of the clones from the starter pack and leaving just the produced clones.
Baby 2 attacks Baby 3 the same way.
Baby 4 attacks Baby 5.
etc., etc., etc.

Day Three:
Mama Corp attacks Baby 2.
Baby 2 attacks Baby 4.
Baby 4 attacks Baby 6.
etc., etc., etc.

This finishes in about a week and Mama Corp has not had to buy any additional clones. Even if it had, it is recouping some of its losses through the biomass that the Babies are yielding by not fighting at all.

Firstly, if they really back you, like for serious real, the big corp can transfer money to a member- "Bob". Bob can then join your corp, donate the money, and then transfer back to his corp. That's the method that Kain Spero was talking about for his money transfer service.

Second, this is New Eden. I suspect that they are using you as one of the "Baby" corporations. They let YOU foot the bill for a starter pack, knowing that they could mow you down in a heartbeat. This means one less shell corporation that they had to create under the old system.

nom nom nom

Not how it is, the backing we have is from a class act, he has proven to be on here and in game multiple times.

And if it did go down that way, shame on them but it wouldn't happen again

You can buy 10 Genolution clone's packs with 1 corporation, this is not sustainable anymore.

80M for 150 clones.
District produce 80 clones a day
A district can hold a maximum of 300 clones, hit in 2 days (without any attack), and earn your first million from the district (80x2 = 160 + 150 = 310, so 10x100,000 = 1M)
Always without any attack, 80 clones per day = 8M a day, you need 10 days to get your money back.

All thoose math without any SI.

This sounds good to me.

You can buy 10 Genolution clone's packs with 1 corporation, this is not sustainable anymore.

It's looking very likely we will introduce corporation tax, just a question of when.

Exactly.

I was demonstrating how easily the old system was abusable and how the new, higher hurdle (while a pain to small corps) is actually better for avoiding an instant NAP Fest in which three Kaiju Corps hold everything by May 13.

This update presents a huge problem-the unlimited starter packs kills the strategic aspect to PC that came with attrition. Before, this update, attrition presented a very cool strategic element into PC by limiting the range of across which an established corp could move. This would have forced corps to be strategic both in what districts they target and in what districts they take.

Now this strategic element is gone-players can just rain clone starter packs on any and all districts, anywhere that they are open. You might as well just scrap attrition altogether. This system makes surface research labs next to pointless. What was originally so cool about PC was that if you wanted said district 5 jumps away, but didn't want to give up those you had, you had to make a "bridge" between the two districts in order to reach the other district without paying the attrition cost.

Sadly now, this great strategic game mode, which could have been so cool will never be.

I made this post in the general forum, but I'll make it here too since its in response to the dev blog.

My concern is, the cost of individual clones makes the difference between gear costs negliable. A starter clone costs over 500k ISK. So this means, a clone with equipment would range between like 510k and like 1M or so.

Point is, the balance between proto gear and lower gear made sense when the price increase was 10k to like 500k, 50X price for an advantage. But when its simply 2X, it wouldnt remotely make ANY sense to not use proto gear.

So whats the point of the lower gear even existing? Are you really gunna suit a 500k clone with cheap gear, ever? This also means that any corp with half a brain will only allow soldiers who have enough SP to run proto gear to use their clones. So now, newer players are pretty much cut off from enjoying the meta aspects of the game.

PC was already going to be an ISK sink due to arms races. Youd be throwing your best gear at PC, regardless of it a dude could only fit an advanced suit or a proto. But now, if I'm a corp, theres no way Im letting me fight in PC cause I dont have the SP to use proto gear. And Im not putting 10-50k gear in a 500k clone.

Oh my God, my prayers were answered!! Thanks for that

Are you accounting for the loss of clones needed to send to take the shell corp district?

You're still missing my point though, yeah it does make it a little less attractive for big corps to take multiple districts but it makes it impossible for a small corp to take one at all.

While the starter pack allows you to strike anywhere

This tiny bit made me wonder... are the exact planets where PC is going to take place be announced prior to May 6th or we will have a stressed out gold rush in the 1st day with Corps having to very rapidly and in a rush make a very quick decision on what the best place to conquer is? Or alternatively reveal before the date and have corps investigate and consider best places to capture, maybe even with a few corps strategically coordinating, calling dibs, bluffing about where they'll go to attack first and other mental games?

This update presents a huge problem-the unlimited starter packs kills the strategic aspect to PC that came with attrition. Before, this update, attrition presented a very cool strategic element into PC by limiting the range of across which an established corp could move. This would have forced corps to be strategic both in what districts they target and in what districts they take.

Now this strategic element is gone-players can just rain clone starter packs on any and all districts, anywhere that they are open. You might as well just scrap attrition altogether. This system makes surface research labs next to pointless. What was originally so cool about PC was that if you wanted said district 5 jumps away, but didn't want to give up those you had, you had to make a "bridge" between the two districts in order to reach the other district without paying the attrition cost.

Sadly now, this great strategic game mode, which could have been so cool will never be.

This tiny bit made me wonder... are the exact planets where PC is going to take place be announced prior to May 6th or we will have a stressed out gold rush in the 1st day with Corps having to very rapidly and in a rush make a very quick decision on what the best place to conquer is? Or alternatively reveal before the date and have corps investigate and consider best places to capture, maybe even with a few corps strategically coordinating, calling dibs, bluffing about where they'll go to attack first and other mental games?

This would be good to know I was under the impression that the initial PC systems were going to be a small 6jumps apart !?

Is this not correct anymore/or never the case ? With the current news about the EVE Bonuses it sounds like PC is going to be spread throughout multiple systems null/low ?

Exactly.

I was demonstrating how easily the old system was abusable and how the new, higher hurdle (while a pain to small corps) is actually better for avoiding an instant NAP Fest in which three Kaiju Corps hold everything by May 13.

It looks to me, with this current system of clones costing much more and the attacker gaining so much when they win, that defending is almost pointless. Corps can just jump district to district and gain huge amounts of clones, ISK, and loot and not bother to risk losing it by defending a district. Since attacking can be so incredibly profitable, what does someone gain by holding a district, or even many districts in a system beyond gaining clones from unsuccessful attackers?

For attack to become profitable:
first, you have to win it
second, you have to win it with good margin (not to have pyrrhic victories)


About defending a district,
read the posts of people complaining Geno pack price. Getting those clones 'free' helps profitability.

1 low sec region that is not a FW region.

Are you intending to be using the Geno packs for all eternity?
CCP's announced intention is to guide people away from using Geno packs - once they have their own district.
At that stage every clone value can be estimated at 100k (the sell value).

100K reduces the problem quite a bit. Especially since biomass can be resold and you can steal clones. But im not entirely sure where the 100k number comes from. Why is that the estimated value?

Attribute Name Original Numbers New Numbers
Clone sell value 100,000 ISK --> No change!
Biomass sell value 50,000 ISK --> 80,000 ISK

100K reduces the problem quite a bit. Especially since biomass can be resold and you can steal clones. But im not entirely sure where the 100k number comes from. Why is that the estimated value?

On the contrary my experiences and those of some of my peers that skirmishes/corp battles on serious level are almost exclusively ending on clone count.

Source: Corp and tournament battles vs great corps (not to be named in this thread)



PC might change that though as it adds some emphasis on MCC control winning - good.
Also, while above being said clone count winning, I find it bit unlikely for corps to risk more clones than minimum loss.
Considering both those facts might prove interesting game balance!

It's looking very likely we will introduce corporation tax, just a question of when.

Dont forget that if you win as an attacker then you are locked, therefore you cant reinforce but you can be attacked. Now as I understand it you should get a chance to produce clones at the next reinforcement window because of the 24 hour minimum notice so you cant be attcked for nearly 2 days but you will remain locked until after attack with only the clones you brought with you and 1 production cycle.

which brings me to my point, that is your reason to bring more than the minimum loss number of clones so that you have a good number to defend with if you win but had high clone attrition.

This just occurred to me, and i'm just putting it out there to further the discussion. (devil's advocate, if you will)

if the problem with the 80 Mil entry point is that it is prohibitive to the smaller corps (and i agree with this point BTW, as i'm from one of those smaller Corps), how exactly will the tax help in the grand scheme or things?

i ask this because, should a tax be implemented, i assume it would not be dependent on the corp size. (ie. every corp will now have a tax levy) so the larger corps will be receiving the tax also. if you follow this to it's logical conclusion this would mean that a large corp will be increasing their revenues also, plus at a higher rate than the smaller corps, 'cus.... well they have more members to tax.

so how does this actually help the smaller corps? yeah they get to make ISK faster, but so do the Big Boys, and i'd assume they would be in an even better position to dominate after the influx of the new ISK tax.

This just occurred to me, and i'm just putting it out there to further the discussion. (devil's advocate, if you will)

if the problem with the 80 Mil entry point is that it is prohibitive to the smaller corps (and i agree with this point BTW, as i'm from one of those smaller Corps), how exactly will the tax help in the grand scheme or things?

i ask this because, should a tax be implemented, i assume it would not be dependent on the corp size. (ie. every corp will now have a tax levy) so the larger corps will be receiving the tax also. if you follow this to it's logical conclusion this would mean that a large corp will be increasing their revenues also, plus at a higher rate than the smaller corps, 'cus.... well they have more members to tax.

so how does this actually help the smaller corps? yeah they get to make ISK faster, but so do the Big Boys, and i'd assume they would be in an even better position to dominate after the influx of the new ISK tax.

I'm still concerned about larger corps with lots of resources being able to beat down a district by simple attrition. In other words, fighting a series of losing battles strictly for the purpose of reducing the number of clones on a district. If you can consistently kill 150 clones (which isn't hard if null cannon damage is adjusted so battles last 30 minutes or longer), you're going to wear down even a defender that manages to win every time. Sure it will be costly for you, but if you already have 5 or more districts you're producing enough clones that you'll never be putting one of your existing districts at risk of a gank. Meanwhile the defender is unable to reinforce because you're constantly locking the district with attacks (which I admit is a necessary mechanic, at least for a losing district).

For established corps with several districts, this will just be another part of gameplay, but for a new corp with only one or two districts, this means it will be nigh-impossible to get established if the other corp(s) on the planet are at all alert. Once you acquire a district, you'll simply get shut out of taking any more.

This just occurred to me, and i'm just putting it out there to further the discussion. (devil's advocate, if you will)

if the problem with the 80 Mil entry point is that it is prohibitive to the smaller corps (and i agree with this point BTW, as i'm from one of those smaller Corps), how exactly will the tax help in the grand scheme or things?

i ask this because, should a tax be implemented, i assume it would not be dependent on the corp size. (ie. every corp will now have a tax levy) so the larger corps will be receiving the tax also. if you follow this to it's logical conclusion this would mean that a large corp will be increasing their revenues also, plus at a higher rate than the smaller corps, 'cus.... well they have more members to tax.

so how does this actually help the smaller corps? yeah they get to make ISK faster, but so do the Big Boys, and i'd assume they would be in an even better position to dominate after the influx of the new ISK tax.

It will only affect the small corps.

The large corps will still grab 20-30 districts on opening day.

I don't see how this is any better, at least before it was going to be a total pain in the ass for corps to get multiple districts, now the flood gates are open.

I'm done with this topic now, agree to disagree but this only f**** the little guys.

I agree this change in effect ensured that only corps with a MINIMUM of 50 members has any chance to participate in PC. If the numbers work out to the attacker making around 1.25 mill isk for a successful attack for each of the 16 members why on earth would those 16 mercs ever consider investing 5 mill isk each to recoup 25% of their investment.

I really was looking forward to PC my corp has right under that 50 member mark but I honestly doubt we will participate in PC until we are at least double our present size and taxes are enabled.

Have fun big corps with the new mechanic made only for you.

This is a double post but hope to get a answer :



Tried to get a understanding of this, but its not easy, I have some few questions :


I buy a starter pack at 80mill and can take a unoccupied district yes? YES, you can take an unoccupied if one is available or choose the district you with to attack


A random very good corp can attack me at a time I decide by using timeinforcer , but I can loose all in 15min if they kill all our clones? YES, you set a 1 hour window of when your district is vulnerable to be attacked. If your district loses all of its clones then you no longer own the district.


The defender dont have any adventage then that attacker is loosing clones on the way to attack us? Kinda, Your district can have up to i think 450 clones, so if an attacker only lands with 150 clones, you can hopefully outlast them...


If I have have control in space can I call in OB as I am pleased, or is there a limit on it? I believe you still need to earn OB with war points and call them in as needed


So bottom line we put 80mil on the table and have nearly no advantage before the battle, is this how I should understand it? I do not believe that is a fair evaluation of the situation.

Sorry but I am to old to understand all the datasheet, hope you have time to answer this for me, as we are looking in to this. Thanks in advanced.Big smileBig smileBig smile

They are asking for Corp CEO's to be able to tax their own members because they have members who do not donate to the corp wallet.

ex: after a pub match, in your winnings, it will automatically take 5% and give to corp wallet. It is more an an internal corp management issue...

you set your own rate of tax or dont tax at all, ceo choice, balance between keeping corps members happy and keeping corp afloat

It's likely that corps are able to set their own Dust Tax rate.

Taxes, as you know, don't generate isk by itself.
The members have the same money etc.


This is only to help manage the fundraising.


It could be argued, but I'd say that

If you have 20 people you might be happy with 1 district. Two donaters giving 50M would be enough.

from a larger pool of people (eg 200) you are more likely to find enough individuals who donate over 50M. But, you might not necessarily be aiming for 10 districts. Rather, 3? In that case you could afford to have more lazy people in.


Taxes guarantee that corps get at least something

I'm still concerned about larger corps with lots of resources being able to beat down a district by simple attrition. In other words, fighting a series of losing battles strictly for the purpose of reducing the number of clones on a district. If you can consistently kill 150 clones (which isn't hard if null cannon damage is adjusted so battles last 30 minutes or longer), you're going to wear down even a defender that manages to win every time. Sure it will be costly for you, but if you already have 5 or more districts you're producing enough clones that you'll never be putting one of your existing districts at risk of a gank. Meanwhile the defender is unable to reinforce because you're constantly locking the district with attacks (which I admit is a necessary mechanic, at least for a losing district).

For established corps with several districts, this will just be another part of gameplay, but for a new corp with only one or two districts, this means it will be nigh-impossible to get established if the other corp(s) on the planet are at all alert. Once you acquire a district, you'll simply get shut out of taking any more.

Random Idea, Separate the clone packs into two different packs:

Genolution Colonization pack: 80m ISK

150 Clones
Corp can buy as many as they want. Can be placed anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to colonize unoccupied districts.

Genolution Assault pack: 20m ISK

150 clones
Can only be purchased if your corp has no districts.
Can assault anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to attack occupied districts.

I have different opinion on those things.
The state of newly captured district being locked is a good good thing.

It adds the element of caring how well I win that final capture battle, instead of 'if I get it no matter how bloody my new district is instantly easy to defend'.

Sure, it adds more fighting. But that's not bad, is it? Worse for the game would be that it would make sense to attack under very specific conditions.

It's looking very likely we will introduce corporation tax, just a question of when.

My last concern is this: I thought DUST was going to allow for merc corporations to have a role in PC without the desire to actually own districts. Basically the ability to be contracted out for defense or attacks to gain or protect distrcits for other corps, especially EVE corps without any feet on the ground.

Is this not the case?

If so, how will this aspect of it work? How will a corporation be able to act as a mercenary corp to defend or attack districts? Will they be using their own clones, or the clones of the corp they are working for?

Random Idea, Separate the clone packs into two different packs:

Genolution Colonization pack: 80m ISK

150 Clones
Corp can buy as many as they want. Can be placed anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to colonize unoccupied districts.

Genolution Assault pack: 20m ISK

150 clones
Can only be purchased if your corp has no districts.
Can assault anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to attack occupied districts.

Subcontracting corporations to help attack and defend is next on our roadmap for PC features.

You can also currently do this using squads, if you have one of your corp members create a squad and pull people from outside of your corp into the battle they can fight for you and will be paid their share of the biomass rewards if you win.

We actually will have a round table at Fanfest this year specifically dedicated to discussing this stuff. Discussing what DUST corporations need to manage their corporations and more than that what DUST players need to communicate and enhance the social experience. So if you know any DUST players coming to Fanfest please be sure to have them keep a lookout for that round table. :)

[/i]If I have have control in space can I call in OB as I am pleased, or is there a limit on it? I believe you still need to earn OB with war points and call them in as needed

So a medicore corp that is not super great in shoot in face will never get many enough WP to really get use of OB, that could mybe be the best card on hand for the defender. And the defending corp should be alowed to use OB more frequently if they have lined up ships in space, that would even out the battle.

If not what is the use of ships that can not fire and help you

If you turn it around IF a medicore corp have control in space they could attack a better corp that dont have it, it would be ok if the big corps also had to have EVE connection, if not they could get punished by a smaller corp with OB support.

Bones, you've moved from 'Last Concern' to 'Last Question(s)'.......
i suspect we should expect a 'Last Musing' and 'Last Query' next right? lol
(just messing with you dude! )

think of the "Precision Strikes" you have seen in pub matches. they are the militia type OBs you get if there are no EVE pilots to help you. if you have EVE ships in orbit that can accept your OB request, they can use bigger and better weapons for more destruction. THAT is the advantage of having EVE pilots helping you.

My last concern is this: I thought DUST was going to allow for merc corporations to have a role in PC without the desire to actually own districts. Basically the ability to be contracted out for defense or attacks to gain or protect distrcits for other corps, especially EVE corps without any feet on the ground.

Is this not the case?

If so, how will this aspect of it work? How will a corporation be able to act as a mercenary corp to defend or attack districts? Will they be using their own clones, or the clones of the corp they are working for?

Alt corps crop up and will get around that "no districts" restriction.

Genolution Assault pack: 20m ISK
150 clones
Can only be purchased if your corp has no districts.
Can assault anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to attack occupied districts.

This tiny bit made me wonder... are the exact planets where PC is going to take place be announced prior to May 6th or we will have a stressed out gold rush in the 1st day with Corps having to very rapidly and in a rush make a very quick decision on what the best place to conquer is? Or alternatively reveal before the date and have corps investigate and consider best places to capture, maybe even with a few corps strategically coordinating, calling dibs, bluffing about where they'll go to attack first and other mental games?

I hope that we get some time.

That's why I keep speculating about the kitten region.