DUST Search - Announcement:Dev Blog: Planetary Conquest: An Update

KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:

Bones McGavins wrote:

I made this post in the general forum, but I'll make it here too since its in response to the dev blog.

My concern is, the cost of individual clones makes the difference between gear costs negliable. A starter clone costs over 500k ISK. So this means, a clone with equipment would range between like 510k and like 1M or so.

Point is, the balance between proto gear and lower gear made sense when the price increase was 10k to like 500k, 50X price for an advantage. But when its simply 2X, it wouldnt remotely make ANY sense to not use proto gear.

So whats the point of the lower gear even existing? Are you really gunna suit a 500k clone with cheap gear, ever? This also means that any corp with half a brain will only allow soldiers who have enough SP to run proto gear to use their clones. So now, newer players are pretty much cut off from enjoying the meta aspects of the game.

PC was already going to be an ISK sink due to arms races. Youd be throwing your best gear at PC, regardless of it a dude could only fit an advanced suit or a proto. But now, if I'm a corp, theres no way Im letting me fight in PC cause I dont have the SP to use proto gear. And Im not putting 10-50k gear in a 500k clone.

Are you intending to be using the Geno packs for all eternity?
CCP's announced intention is to guide people away from using Geno packs - once they have their own district.
At that stage every clone value can be estimated at 100k (the sell value).


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 35 post(s)
Bones McGavins Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2013.04.05 15:49:00 - [1] - Quote I made this post in the general forum, but I'll make it here too since its in response to the dev blog. My concern is, the cost of individual clones makes the difference between gear costs negliable. A starter clone costs over 500k ISK. So this means, a clone with equipment would range between like 510k and like 1M or so. Point is, the balance between proto gear and lower gear made sense when the price increase was 10k to like 500k, 50X price for an advantage. But when its simply 2X, it wouldnt remotely make ANY sense to not use proto gear. So whats the point of the lower gear even existing? Are you really gunna suit a 500k clone with cheap gear, ever? This also means that any corp with half a brain will only allow soldiers who have enough SP to run proto gear to use their clones. So now, newer players are pretty much cut off from enjoying the meta aspects of the game. PC was already going to be an ISK sink due to arms races. Youd be throwing your best gear at PC, regardless of it a dude could only fit an advanced suit or a proto. But now, if I'm a corp, theres no way Im letting me fight in PC cause I dont have the SP to use proto gear. And Im not putting 10-50k gear in a 500k clone.
Bones McGavins Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2013.04.05 16:08:00 - [2] - Quote Basically, the cost between various gear levels is marginalized by the cost of clones. Look at it this way: Currently lets say a typical starter fit costs 20k. A typical proto fit costs 400k (these numbers may be wrong, i dont use proto yet). So a proto fit costs 20X a starter fit. In PC, we have to factor in the cost of a clone. So roughly 500k. Now, a standard fit clone costs 520K, a proto fit clone costs 900k. Not even a 2X price. The price of equipment is marginal compared to the price of a clone. So if I am a corp, and my big ISK investment in attacking or defending is in the clone, not in the equipment, why would I ever fit a clone with anything but proto? And with that in mind, why would I ever let a player without the SP to run proto in a clone?
Bones McGavins Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2013.04.05 17:17:00 - [3] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: I made this post in the general forum, but I'll make it here too since its in response to the dev blog. My concern is, the cost of individual clones makes the difference between gear costs negliable. A starter clone costs over 500k ISK. So this means, a clone with equipment would range between like 510k and like 1M or so. Point is, the balance between proto gear and lower gear made sense when the price increase was 10k to like 500k, 50X price for an advantage. But when its simply 2X, it wouldnt remotely make ANY sense to not use proto gear. So whats the point of the lower gear even existing? Are you really gunna suit a 500k clone with cheap gear, ever? This also means that any corp with half a brain will only allow soldiers who have enough SP to run proto gear to use their clones. So now, newer players are pretty much cut off from enjoying the meta aspects of the game. PC was already going to be an ISK sink due to arms races. Youd be throwing your best gear at PC, regardless of it a dude could only fit an advanced suit or a proto. But now, if I'm a corp, theres no way Im letting me fight in PC cause I dont have the SP to use proto gear. And Im not putting 10-50k gear in a 500k clone. Are you intending to be using the Geno packs for all eternity? CCP's announced intention is to guide people away from using Geno packs - once they have their own district. At that stage every clone value can be estimated at 100k (the sell value). 100K reduces the problem quite a bit. Especially since biomass can be resold and you can steal clones. But im not entirely sure where the 100k number comes from. Why is that the estimated value?
Bones McGavins Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2013.04.05 17:33:00 - [4] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: I'm still concerned about larger corps with lots of resources being able to beat down a district by simple attrition. In other words, fighting a series of losing battles strictly for the purpose of reducing the number of clones on a district. If you can consistently kill 150 clones (which isn't hard if null cannon damage is adjusted so battles last 30 minutes or longer), you're going to wear down even a defender that manages to win every time. Sure it will be costly for you, but if you already have 5 or more districts you're producing enough clones that you'll never be putting one of your existing districts at risk of a gank. Meanwhile the defender is unable to reinforce because you're constantly locking the district with attacks (which I admit is a necessary mechanic, at least for a losing district). For established corps with several districts, this will just be another part of gameplay, but for a new corp with only one or two districts, this means it will be nigh-impossible to get established if the other corp(s) on the planet are at all alert. Once you acquire a district, you'll simply get shut out of taking any more. But if your losing 300 clones, the defending corp gets 300 clones in biomass. Plus whatever biomass they get from their own clone losses means they will more than recoup their losses. They can then buy new clones with the excess cash from the biomass spoils. Not to mention the loot they will salvage to replace the equipment they lost. Overall it will be very hard to win through sheer attrition. If you are just a little bit less skilled, then yah, you could. But if they are signifigantly better in any way, you will likely be handing them your ISK by attacking over and over.
Bones McGavins Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2013.04.05 18:08:00 - [5] - Quote My last concern is this: I thought DUST was going to allow for merc corporations to have a role in PC without the desire to actually own districts. Basically the ability to be contracted out for defense or attacks to gain or protect distrcits for other corps, especially EVE corps without any feet on the ground. Is this not the case? If so, how will this aspect of it work? How will a corporation be able to act as a mercenary corp to defend or attack districts? Will they be using their own clones, or the clones of the corp they are working for?
Bones McGavins Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 48	Posted - 2013.04.05 18:54:00 - [6] - Quote So its "soon" but not part of the upcoming PC with the caveat of being able to bring friends into PC via the squad system. Cool. Last question(s): Clones are sold for 100K. Is this done manually or automatically when you have more clones than the district can support? Also, can other corps buy these clones, or is this just a sink (like biomass, but outside of the fight)? Basically if I'm a corp, holding onto a few districts, can I buy the excess clones off another corp if my clone supplies run low? Or if not, can I buy some of the starter clones to reinforce? Or am I only allowed the clones my districts can create?
Bones McGavins Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 48	Posted - 2013.04.05 19:10:00 - [7] - Quote jamstar saa187 wrote: Bones, you've moved from 'Last Concern' to 'Last Question(s)'....... i suspect we should expect a 'Last Musing' and 'Last Query' next right? lol (just messing with you dude! ) Hey im no longer concerned! Just inquisitive now!