Foxfour, im sorry but i dont think you are getting my point. We (corporations) have a flawed way of getting isk, donations arent the answer, taxes are. Until that and as i said before, relying on the charity of enough players wont get small corps, poor corps, into PC.

then whats the point of corps in dust with no EVE backing even trying to play?
again.....screws the little guy

With these numbers a won match will give you 12 million ISK at a minimum. 80k ISK in biomass * 150 clones lost.

On top of that you get both standard ISK payout and loot. The loot will for the most part be useless until we get trading though, but the standard ISK payout can easily exceed 1 million ISK per player, if the other team is in full prototype gear.

So overall each player on the winning side are guaranteed to get at least 1,75 million ISK, if the other team is in full prototype gear. They might even get more than that, since the standard ISK payout might be bigger than what I outlined. On top of that there will be loot (which will be more or less useless to start with).

My post #32 does that no?

The only ISK payment from a match is the number of clones destroyed * biomass value.

Keep in mind the losing side needs to lose a minimum of 150 clones, but the attackers are going to lose clones killing those and they are added on top.

So say you win. You kill 150 clones and lose 100 doing it. That is 250 clones killed at a rate of 80,000 ISK. That is 20M ISK divided by 16 players for 1.25M ISK per player.

On top of that you get 50% of the loot from the other team.

so nobody else is bothered by the : You win, you're stuck.
Nobody else thinks inter-region fights are gonna be discouraged by the offered "Counter Attack Day" due to the lock after a district is taken ?

Taking a district should prompt the corp with a "'congrats ! you took the district. So, what RT would you like ?"

There's no need for a tax because when you go over the clone limit on a district the extra clones are sold automatically which then funds your corp without needing to tax your members

This is why it was necessary:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=671394#post671394

Without the increase, the largest corps were going to be able to buy EVERYTHING on the first day by using shell corporations. This is not speculation- we already heard that a number of big boys were planning to do so.

This at least slows them down and gives a few other corporations a shot at getting a foot in the door.

The solution, from a small corp standpoint, is recruitment, leadership, and peer pressure.

If your corp can't raise 80M ISK, then you really didn't have a shot under the old system either.

I'm not trying to be mean, just accurate.

My corp has 35 members.
I cannot force a good player to donate, nor can i control when he did.

This is such a load of crap!!

If they would go back to one genolution pack for each corp if you don't own a district we don't have this problem.

But since they've made it unlimited genolution clones, you're right... All the big corps will snatch up all the districts day 1

My advice is to merge the corporations into just one or two.

I'm not saying this to be mean, just practical. If you look at successful EVE-side corporations, those that hold territory are HUGE and they are part of HUGE alliances.

--
Here's a link to the largest alliance in EVE:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Goonswarm_Federation/corporations

This alliance has 190 member corporations. Their largest corporation, GoonWaffe, has over 4,000 members.
--

It might also help to get an EVE alliance to take you in. That will, as the games tie closer together, give you certain advantages.

I undertsand wanting to make the bigger corps work a little more, but raising the price by 60M ISK just completely takes us smaller corp's out of the game. The corp I'm in currently has around 30 members, 5 of which are pretty active. I doubt 5 of us could raise that much.

I made this post in the general forum, but I'll make it here too since its in response to the dev blog.

My concern is, the cost of individual clones makes the difference between gear costs negliable. A starter clone costs over 500k ISK. So this means, a clone with equipment would range between like 510k and like 1M or so.

Point is, the balance between proto gear and lower gear made sense when the price increase was 10k to like 500k, 50X price for an advantage. But when its simply 2X, it wouldnt remotely make ANY sense to not use proto gear.

So whats the point of the lower gear even existing? Are you really gunna suit a 500k clone with cheap gear, ever? This also means that any corp with half a brain will only allow soldiers who have enough SP to run proto gear to use their clones. So now, newer players are pretty much cut off from enjoying the meta aspects of the game.

PC was already going to be an ISK sink due to arms races. Youd be throwing your best gear at PC, regardless of it a dude could only fit an advanced suit or a proto. But now, if I'm a corp, theres no way Im letting me fight in PC cause I dont have the SP to use proto gear. And Im not putting 10-50k gear in a 500k clone.

It looks to me, with this current system of clones costing much more and the attacker gaining so much when they win, that defending is almost pointless. Corps can just jump district to district and gain huge amounts of clones, ISK, and loot and not bother to risk losing it by defending a district. Since attacking can be so incredibly profitable, what does someone gain by holding a district, or even many districts in a system beyond gaining clones from unsuccessful attackers?

You can buy 10 Genolution clone's packs with 1 corporation, this is not sustainable anymore.

80M for 150 clones.
District produce 80 clones a day
A district can hold a maximum of 300 clones, hit in 2 days (without any attack), and earn your first million from the district (80x2 = 160 + 150 = 310, so 10x100,000 = 1M)
Always without any attack, 80 clones per day = 8M a day, you need 10 days to get your money back.

All thoose math without any SI.

This sounds good to me.

For attack to become profitable:
first, you have to win it
second, you have to win it with good margin (not to have pyrrhic victories)


About defending a district,
read the posts of people complaining Geno pack price. Getting those clones 'free' helps profitability.

100K reduces the problem quite a bit. Especially since biomass can be resold and you can steal clones. But im not entirely sure where the 100k number comes from. Why is that the estimated value?

This just occurred to me, and i'm just putting it out there to further the discussion. (devil's advocate, if you will)

if the problem with the 80 Mil entry point is that it is prohibitive to the smaller corps (and i agree with this point BTW, as i'm from one of those smaller Corps), how exactly will the tax help in the grand scheme or things?

i ask this because, should a tax be implemented, i assume it would not be dependent on the corp size. (ie. every corp will now have a tax levy) so the larger corps will be receiving the tax also. if you follow this to it's logical conclusion this would mean that a large corp will be increasing their revenues also, plus at a higher rate than the smaller corps, 'cus.... well they have more members to tax.

so how does this actually help the smaller corps? yeah they get to make ISK faster, but so do the Big Boys, and i'd assume they would be in an even better position to dominate after the influx of the new ISK tax.

I agree this change in effect ensured that only corps with a MINIMUM of 50 members has any chance to participate in PC. If the numbers work out to the attacker making around 1.25 mill isk for a successful attack for each of the 16 members why on earth would those 16 mercs ever consider investing 5 mill isk each to recoup 25% of their investment.

I really was looking forward to PC my corp has right under that 50 member mark but I honestly doubt we will participate in PC until we are at least double our present size and taxes are enabled.

Have fun big corps with the new mechanic made only for you.

This is a double post but hope to get a answer :



Tried to get a understanding of this, but its not easy, I have some few questions :


I buy a starter pack at 80mill and can take a unoccupied district yes? YES, you can take an unoccupied if one is available or choose the district you with to attack


A random very good corp can attack me at a time I decide by using timeinforcer , but I can loose all in 15min if they kill all our clones? YES, you set a 1 hour window of when your district is vulnerable to be attacked. If your district loses all of its clones then you no longer own the district.


The defender dont have any adventage then that attacker is loosing clones on the way to attack us? Kinda, Your district can have up to i think 450 clones, so if an attacker only lands with 150 clones, you can hopefully outlast them...


If I have have control in space can I call in OB as I am pleased, or is there a limit on it? I believe you still need to earn OB with war points and call them in as needed


So bottom line we put 80mil on the table and have nearly no advantage before the battle, is this how I should understand it? I do not believe that is a fair evaluation of the situation.

Sorry but I am to old to understand all the datasheet, hope you have time to answer this for me, as we are looking in to this. Thanks in advanced.Big smileBig smileBig smile

Random Idea, Separate the clone packs into two different packs:

Genolution Colonization pack: 80m ISK

150 Clones
Corp can buy as many as they want. Can be placed anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to colonize unoccupied districts.

Genolution Assault pack: 20m ISK

150 clones
Can only be purchased if your corp has no districts.
Can assault anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to attack occupied districts.

Yeah, this is where the small, medium, and large casinos issue is helpful.

If the 250 districts of PC space are divided into small, medium, and large pockets rather than contiguous, then we have a potential solution.

The biggest and most powerful ("Kaiju") corps will likely gravitate to the largest pockets because they can dominate those with minimal clone loss in transit.

The big, but not HUGE corps will aim towards the middle-sized pockets because they can defend those.

The smaller, but not tiny corps will tend to shoot for the smallest pockets.

Even over time, this principle will likely hold true. If you are a Kaiju, it's not worth trying to conquer a mid-sized pocket because the rewards aren't that awesome. You might attack them for fun or because the owners have annoyed you, but you aren't likely to try zerging it.

Big, but not top-name ("Monster") corps that want to knock the Kaijus down a peg will need the resources of a medium pocket to have a shot at attacking a big pocket. These corps might have started by conquering a small pocket, but they will shift their focus to the medium pocket as soon as possible.

This leaves the smallest pockets for the strong but small corps ("Sharks") to fight over. In order for a Shark to have a chance of becoming a Monster, they will need to conquer the whole pocket. However, if there are enough small pockets, there will be a lot of churn in these spots and plenty of opportunity for "Minnows" to try and become Sharks.