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Cerebral Wolf Jr
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Posted - 2013.04.05 23:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, so i've been thinking about this for quite some time and i think it's about time i shared my feedback and thoughts on it. So be aware theirs an effort post below.
Clone pack prices:
My initial knee jerk reaction was that this is going to really impact smaller corps and it would be terrible because it's going to lock out a lot of corps from PC simply based on the cost of the clone packs now. Having said that, the more i think about it the better i think it is and the possibility's that come with this are great in addition to the exploits it's going to close such as using shell corps for taking districts and locking districts to stop people from attacking them etc.
A lot of the concerns in this thread seem to be around smaller corps not being able to get together the 80m together or that if they did, they could need multiple packs to take a district which could raise the price to 230m or even more. The first thing to point out is that it's really not that hard to raise 80m, even for a small corp. To take part in PC you should have a minimum of 16 members in your corp, non of this coalition stuff will work here, take it from the people that have been doing this stuff for years. It may work to start with but long term it won't and that's a discussion for another time. With 16 members who all want to do PC the price is about 5m each if everyone donates the same volume of isk and that's really not hard to do, even after Uprising launches it will be easier as i expect FW to have better rewards than current pubic games.
If you can't afford it and you can't get your members to donate or have less than 16 members you really shouldn't be taking part. I'm sorry that people are going to disagree with this but it's simply a fact. You may get a foot in the door but you'll never survive. You'll be easy pickings and targeted right off the bat because people have no idea who you are.
The main price for the pack as stated is to stop people using them within 6 jumps because of the attrition mechanics. If you attrition mechanics change and go up, expect the price of the clone pack to go up too to keep it balanced. As said above by SoxFour, it's mainly for people to hit districts that have moved clones elsewhere when they attack another district or something, it's going to add an excellent level of strategy to the game because new corps will hit clone light districts to get their foot in the door and older, more well established corps will also do the same to get a foot hold further afield, it adds an extra level of strategy to the game and complicates attacking even more as people will have to keep this in mind when launching an attack.
The price of the pack also stops "nomad" corps, who don't own districts and don't want to own districts from attacking people and raiding them just to make a profit. I know a lot of corps are interested in this but the issue comes with that they dont have anything to be attacked in return so they just keep making profit if they are good players. With the change in price, gear cost and biomass changes these corps are going to be looking at a minimum of 50m in losses per fight which opens up a nice market for corps to be hired for work. These people may complain about this but CCP said above the mechanics to get this into place are next on their list on the roadmap so it should be a non issue in the near future too. But people who don't want to hold districts have to have some disadvantage against people who do and this is that disadvantage, they can't make a profit unless someone pays them to do the job.
Clone stealing:
I like this because it adds another level of depth to the game, i feel that maybe 50% of clones generated by the district going to the attacker maybe a little much though, it's going to allow people to maintain constant attacks against people and i feel it should have some kind of isk sink to it in order t balance things out a little maybe?...
District locking on capture:
I don't like this at all personally, i think it's only fair that after the attacker puts the effort in to coordinate the attack and put their isk on the line for it that they should at least get the ability to pick their defense timers and bring it into their empire on their terms, they do control it after all. I'd be willing to accept that the timers don't change if the district can get clones generated on them though. The new owner should get something for the effort they put in, you're saying you don't want things to be a bluefest yet give the previous owners a huge advantage here by allowing them to counterattack at their prime time with no clone reinforcements to the district. Maybe allow clone packs to be used for reinforcement without allowing clones to regenerate maybe?....
New Attrition Rules:
Love them, think they are spot on personally.
EVE Bonus:
I think this requires a little more thought and possibly a thread of its own but it's going to depend on the percentages used but i think POS stuff maybe so niche right now based on current EVE/Dust corp relationships that it's going to take quite some time before any real impact from this is seen and has any real impact.
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Cerebral Wolf Jr
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Posted - 2013.04.06 00:21:00 -
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Then i'd have no issue with that personally. I assumed it would be an attack 24 hours after the district flipped with zero clone regen meaning you'd only have 50 clones there still. I'm terrible at math.
All in all, the more i think about it the more i think you've made the right calls personally. I'm interested in a rough number for FW payouts per player though post patch to see how that's going to impact peoples Isk flow and possibly PC commitments.
Whats the best and worst case scenario for getting corp tax in? I think that would fix a lot of peoples issues right off the bat and even a very rough idea would make people more comfortable with things.
It's also past your bed time. Welp.
Also, Looking at things EVE side PC is going to take place in Black Rise/Aridia or Lonetrek. I hope it's the latter. |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
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Posted - 2013.04.06 00:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ah not BR then, i just noticed the news today mentioned them a lot but i've not had time to check the details.
As for my reasons, I'd have to kill you if i told you. |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
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Posted - 2013.04.06 00:42:00 -
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CCP Nullarbor wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Goric Rumis wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Yeah, this is where the small, medium, and large casinos issue is helpful. I'll be honest, I'm still not entirely sure where the disincentive comes in. Is it merely the clone loss from shipping clones over long distances? You also have to consider that the largest corps will want to hold some of the most remote planets (because that's their territory in EVE). The disincentive comes from distance losses, yes, but also from the lack of rewards. I've long postulated that Genesis may be the first region for PC. If that is the case, then there are some pockets in that region: The minipocket constellation of Nazdirer (1 Temperate in Vecamia) is 5 jumps from the Mih midpocket (5 Temperates total). Nazdirer's is also 6 jumps from the Ashela midpocket (4 Temperates) and the Ubar minipocket (2 Temperates). The Nazdirer pocket is 8 jumps from the nearest part of the Monalaz-Meli-EVE megapocket and 12 jumps from the Aven-Makh-Kihkounad megapocket. A Kaiju corp is not likely to want to hold Vecamia because it is really far from any other planets and those corps can make a lot more money by owning most (or all) of a megapocket. Furthermore, their holdings in the megapocket are easier to reinforce from clones elsewhere in the pocket. By contrast, Vecamia (the Nazdirer minipocket) can only effectively rely on that one planet for reinforcements. At best, only 55% of the clones sent from the nearest other pocket (Mih) would arrive. That means that corps would more likely have to buy clones (at five times their street value) to make up the difference. If you are a Shark, then only having a couple of districts on Vecamia VIII is awesome. If you are a Kaiju, then defending districts on Vecamia via clone packs is a waste of money. You could much more cost-effectively attack nearby systems than trying to project force halfway across the region. In addition, the Shark corps (and Minnows who want to be Sharks) will very quickly realize this and focus their efforts on the minipockets. As a result, the minipockets will be filled with battles. This means that districts belonging to distant corps are likely to be the preferred targets of Minnows and Sharks hoping to win a district by attrition. Since those districts are a net loss for Kaijus and Monsters, the big boys are likely to let those pockets alone. Something we havn't mentioned yet is that our cost calculation skips high security systems provided they are along the shortest path between the districts. Having said that, I am neither confirming nor denying there will be high security systems in any paths, just explaining how it works 
You're a bad man. Go to bed. It's like 2am already. I'm trying to but Hans keeps talking at me. ;)
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Cerebral Wolf Jr
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Posted - 2013.04.06 11:07:00 -
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Pyzon Adama wrote:Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't see any reward for global, or even system conquest. There defiantly should be incentives on the Dust and Eve end for holding entire planets and even systems or whatnot, even if it is just bigger bonuses for more districts with a extra complete planet bonus.
Keeping the above in mind I think there maybe is an opportunity to tweak the entire system just a bit, fixing what I see as a bit of a fatal flaw in the current system. The flaw being alienating small corps. The tweak would be make it so a smaller districts on planets, can be held by a more traditional fps squad of 8 or so and give them a bit cheaper clone starting cost, while leaving the bigger districts requiring 16 competent defenders/attackers and the higher costs.
Doing this you can carve a little niche for those smaller fps clans that have been together for years, and don't want to double up, and/or for those who just think 16 is fun 32 is a crowd. I hope you think about it because I know you want to include as many as possible in your crowning jewel that is planetary conquest/eve interaction.
Just of the top of my head this could let small corps capture an 8 man team/16 man district, and hold it till a bigger corp buys it or takes it, for the planet bonus, that some serious evenessTM in dust.
Remember, this is just the initial launch, not the mechanics we'll have forever. CCP are looking into Planet, System and regional bonus's now but it may take some time.
Pyzon Adama wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:Small corps are good but if team can't fund its activities or field a full team then they shouldn't try to hold something they can't pay for or defend. Larger corps usually do have lots of money and members and I would say it is mostly taxes that make then rich. Someone wrote the fat get fatter and the poor get poorer. This is a true statement they both keep doing whatever it is that makes them fat or poor.
Corps should have been charging players from the start to be in the corp. Finally, just because you like having fun with friends you have known for a long time doesn't mean you should get a district. Just like in real life the bigger they are the more they have and can do. If you like having fun with your friends and don't want to tax your group then stay in random battles. If you want to own and hold districts then start taxing your mercs and recruiting. I am not being an ass but I am telling the truth. I am actually a 4year eve pilot and isk will not be a problem for me, once the real interaction switch is flipped, which will probably be around the same time dust corps can tax anyway. Also while you may be keen to leave me and everyone else that's played more traditional fps's out, I happen to know Dust514's Dev team as a whole is not. The idea could even be expanded upon to allow for some planets to have super districts that require 32 mercs to defend or attack. But being the first persistent fps mmo, I have played personally, not having a spot(district) in that persistent world, that me and my little fps clan can try to carve out for our own, would defiantly be disappointing if not a deal breaker.
A 4 year EVE pilot means nothing, it's about the tax percentages. I fully expect the EVE/DUST Tax link to be in the region of 90% to start with so even having several billion in your personal liquid isk stash will mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
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Posted - 2013.04.06 12:49:00 -
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KalOfTheRathi wrote:Taxes are not going to fly for a vast majority of Mercs I suspect. Mercs are actually real people and gamers at that. They play games to relax and one of their favorite things to do is to bend the rules; Of every single aspect of any game.
Don't be surprised when poor recruitment practices don't generate funds to operate PC.
Once taxes can be implemented expect a sudden reduction in membership for the Corp that chooses that option. That might not be true in countries outside of the US. But here, taxes will probably drive more players away than will actually help the Corp.
A system to track donations would make much more sense. That enables pride and bragging rights while taxes inspire revolution on this little piece of Old Earth.
80% of my corp is US based and they can't wait for us to get taxes because they know we're gonna have fun with that money and it's going to go towards paying them to lose tanks and protosuits.
If you can't get your members onside for tax etc then you shouldn't be leading a corp to be perfectly honest. Your job as leader is to convince your member base what needs to be done for the good of the corp, not bend over backwards and let your membership screw you from behind. |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
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876
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Posted - 2013.04.06 12:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:Ronan Elsword wrote:The way this is currently set up, the Eve players have a fairly minor role. Why can't you have an Eve player transport the clones as an option or something like that. Also the Dust players should have a bigger role in the planetary infrastructure system. Why would any DUST player trust any EVE player to transport clones? Unless those players are one and the same it makes no sense. EVE is built on backstabbing, thievery and never trusting EVE players. Just listen to the thieving clowns threaten you on your local chat. That should establish the quality of trust you can expect from the pod people.
Because that EVE side logistics will be needed for Dust in Nullsec. Not Lowsec. So it's not going to impact you PC guys anyway. |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
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876
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Posted - 2013.04.06 13:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Previous subject of orbital strike WP count.
NPC Warbarges being on a WP count is realistic. Player ships are not. Just lift the WP requirement, and put in place a siege bombardment module that takes a 3 minute cycle to load for strike. Cycling the module causes district alert as well as system alert in eve local.
Multiple ships provide multiple strikes, but doing so in lowsec provokes CONCORD due to mass destruction conventions. In other words, nullsec sky dominance allows strikes per minute, suicide ganking planets is in lowsec.
I'm putting together a thread about this right now. |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
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Posted - 2013.04.06 15:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
DoomLead wrote:
I think planetary conquest should work like rush on battlefield 3 (since skirmish is basically conquest from battlefield 3).
think about it they drop a couple CRUs as an insertion point and you steadily move up the planet hacking and holding objectives around a district. Districts are won when you hold all objectives. Planet is won when you win three or more districts depending on size of planet. In defense game is won when all of the enemy CRUs are either hacked or destroyed. If anybody can add to this give CCP your thoughts and maybe we can get more than a new game mode in the near future besides Team Deathmatch (Ambush) and Conquest(Skirmish).
or at least you can do instant battles like this cause this game is in need of a new game mode badly
Thats how the old skirmish use to work but it was taken out because it was unbalanced. |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
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Posted - 2013.04.08 20:25:00 -
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Any starter pack with a one purchase limit will get exploited by alt corps, thats the main reason behind the price change. |
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