so if the attacker loses, all the clones sent on the attack are lost even if you were to send like 250 clones since 150 are taken no matter what if you lose leaving you with 100 then the enemy takes 50% leaving you with 50 which then just die in the coldness of space.

there should be a way to save those 50 clones

if i'm doing this math right that is

Is the lock on the district eternal or is it unlocked after some time?

wow, from 20mil to 80mil per clone package... neat way to get the smaller corps completly out of PC, thanx guys! *sarcasm*

ill admit it fucks up smaller corps
they will already have a hard time holding 1 district the price for re-entry should they get the boot will keep them out which imo is a bad move

ill admit it fucks up smaller corps
they will already have a hard time holding 1 district the price for re-entry should they get the boot will keep them out which imo is a bad move

Don't the defenders lose an additional 50 to the ether for the min clone loss?

So... What region is PC starting in?

With these numbers a won match will give you 12 million ISK at a minimum. 80k ISK in biomass * 150 clones lost.

On top of that you get both standard ISK payout and loot. The loot will for the most part be useless until we get trading though, but the standard ISK payout can easily exceed 1 million ISK per player, if the other team is in full prototype gear.

So overall each player on the winning side are guaranteed to get at least 1,75 million ISK, if the other team is in full prototype gear. They might even get more than that, since the standard ISK payout might be bigger than what I outlined. On top of that there will be loot (which will be more or less useless to start with).

Just read post #32 (my bad)

Can we get a Dev to confirm that if you win. you get all of the following:
1. "Standard" or "Regular" ISK payouts like we see in pub matches
2. ISK from the Biomass of clones
3. Loot from the battle

Can you confirm that a winning player is likely to walk away with about 1.75m ISK?

Apologies for being so dense.

That's not what you answered the other day?

Now it won't be worth it? 12 million ISK is nothing.

You can't really use the loot for this math until we get trading. Clones stolen makes up for the clones lost in the battle, and is not a profit for the individual in the match.

With only 12 million split on the 16 players, the individual will be at a huge ISK loss each battle.

true only if pubs were actually fun to play atm
fighting other corps is the only fun thing in dust atm

Disagree

Taxes will help and I hope are added into the game, but if your corp can sustain itself without taxes than you may need to rethink you management style.

If you can't get your corp to pull together 80m ISK than you need to either reconsider your corps involvement with PC or start recruiting.

80m ISK / 16 man tema = 5m ISK per person. Most people can get 5m ISK in about 2/3 nights worth of pubs...

I didn't know the clones the winners lost would count as biomass reward as well. That makes it slightly higher than 12 million ISK, but I still don't think that's enough of a reward to the winning side.

Also you said (or implied) that we would have standard ISK payouts in this post (my biomass number is actually wrong in thread, just ignore that):

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=667045#post667045

Yes, thank you. I was in the middle of my post when you replied and then I went back in to edit my fail.

Well, someone beat me too it.

The absence of corporation management tools and interface has been an ongoing irritation. Pertinent to this discussion is:

-the inability to set tax rates
-the inability to track player donations
-the inability to set roles and limit access to the main wallet while preserving other helpful abilities of directors (the only role available)
-the inability to email your corporation en masse (unless you have an EVE side director or CEO -even then you have to do a work around).

CCP you have done very little to enable corporations to manage and develop their economic interests and I feel that your internal calculations about PC required a lot of unjustifiable presumptions.

At a minimum, you have just raised the entry requirements to PC in a way that disadvantages small and medium sized corporations (assuming an even donation rate across the player base).

Warning: I ramble a lot and I often dont make sense.



I am seriously conflicted about what this means.

I like how, with the new price, it makes it so if you are a large corp with a lot of ISK and you decide to just start throwing your money at something the game will happily let you and it might work for the short term. Having districts maxed out with clones right off the bat (or close to it) If you decide to do it is a good way to ensure you can hold said district (at least for a day or two). Its a shortcut based on spending far more ISK than is sane, which I dont mind as long as it cant be kept up forever (in which case its annoying).

I am worried about what this does to smaller corps trying to get their feet wet. I know you said you will be watching this. But I guess a good question is why do you only have the one clone pack to buy? Why not have two packs. A Starter Genolution Pack, usable only if you dont have a district yet and at a cheaper cost (Maybe not 20M, as that might be a little low but still lower than 80M). And then a Standard Genolution Pack at 80M ISK than can be used even with a district. It should lower the barrier to entry a little while still making it tough to buy your way into a huge foothold.

I really dont like how.. based on my understanding of the Clone Packs, Someone could purchase a clone pack at any point and by using it to attack could then bypass the attrition rate. Anywhere could be attacked by anyone regardless of where they are located in the region without suffering from the normal limitations of attrition. I dont think allowing someone to just pay ISK to bypass normal limitations is a good thing. If you use the Genolution clone pack to attack someone at least have it suffer some kind of attrition based on the nearest district you own (unless you dont own one).

Spending isk to spead up the process of getting clones where you have them? or expanding faster? I am Okay with that. Its a game about mercs. Spending more money should be able to speed things along a little. Spending isk to be able to ignore a part of the game and strategy? And attack people you otherwise couldnt have attacked at all due to distance? Not okay with that.

This update presents a huge problem-the unlimited starter packs kills the strategic aspect to PC that came with attrition. Before, this update, attrition presented a very cool strategic element into PC by limiting the range of across which an established corp could move. This would have forced corps to be strategic both in what districts they target and in what districts they take.

Now this strategic element is gone-players can just rain clone starter packs on any and all districts, anywhere that they are open. You might as well just scrap attrition altogether. This system makes surface research labs next to pointless. What was originally so cool about PC was that if you wanted said district 5 jumps away, but didn't want to give up those you had, you had to make a "bridge" between the two districts in order to reach the other district without paying the attrition cost.

Sadly now, this great strategic game mode, which could have been so cool will never be.

This tiny bit made me wonder... are the exact planets where PC is going to take place be announced prior to May 6th or we will have a stressed out gold rush in the 1st day with Corps having to very rapidly and in a rush make a very quick decision on what the best place to conquer is? Or alternatively reveal before the date and have corps investigate and consider best places to capture, maybe even with a few corps strategically coordinating, calling dibs, bluffing about where they'll go to attack first and other mental games?

This would be good to know I was under the impression that the initial PC systems were going to be a small 6jumps apart !?

Is this not correct anymore/or never the case ? With the current news about the EVE Bonuses it sounds like PC is going to be spread throughout multiple systems null/low ?

My last concern is this: I thought DUST was going to allow for merc corporations to have a role in PC without the desire to actually own districts. Basically the ability to be contracted out for defense or attacks to gain or protect distrcits for other corps, especially EVE corps without any feet on the ground.

Is this not the case?

If so, how will this aspect of it work? How will a corporation be able to act as a mercenary corp to defend or attack districts? Will they be using their own clones, or the clones of the corp they are working for?

Random Idea, Separate the clone packs into two different packs:

Genolution Colonization pack: 80m ISK

150 Clones
Corp can buy as many as they want. Can be placed anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to colonize unoccupied districts.

Genolution Assault pack: 20m ISK

150 clones
Can only be purchased if your corp has no districts.
Can assault anywhere in region
ONLY allowed to attack occupied districts.

What happens in this scenario?

A corp without any districts buys a clone pack and attacks a district held by another corp with 300 clones.

The attacker wins, now here's where I get confused.

If the attacker loses less clones than they steal (40 or 50 depending); then they have enough to attack the next day.

If they lose more than they recover from thievery they will have less than 150 clones, can they still attack the next day or do the clones automatically get sold back to the NPC corp. If they get sold back does that mean they would have to buy another clone pack to attack the next day.

Basically how does a corp that doesn't own a district break into PC once all of the districts are full?

I don't think it necessarily does. The incentive by players to use alt corps with the previous iteration was to accelerate a land grab of unoccupied districts on release day. After most of the districts have been claimed that incentive to rush districts no longer will exist. Then the only use of alt corps after that time would be to harass other corporations at distance, but if you split them up the assault pack will have no use for land grab(and thus alt corps) and still have a lower barrier to entry(20m) for smaller corps.

Well. This has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons and no mistake.

Now aside from the additional cost the clones packs (which is a total killjoy for the more modest corps hoping to take part in this), the unlimited purchase of them has just given the larger corps exclusive rights to PC and totally destroys any chance of this being a strategic game mode. Within a week less than 10 corps will hold all the districts and with the winnings and ISK from the clones they're just going to get richer, better equipped and more likely to club together to prevent anyone breaking their monopoly.

Congrats and well done for giving Dust immovable power blocs. Smart move.




Now this is something I have a problem with.

Its now looking very likely we need a corporation Tax? It's only just looking likely?!!That suggests to me that at some point the need for corporation tax hadn't even occurred to you? Was that the same day it occurred to CCP that corps only needed two roles, didn't need corp mail, mailing lists or a wallet system that didn't have a transaction history?!!

What PC is increasing doing in point of fact, is demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of what is required by corps to run and fund their corps in the first place! All of which has a direct impact on being able to do PC at all.

It's not that you've build a house with no foundations, it's the fact your expecting the second floor to hover in the air above where the ground floor should be.

I'd be willing to accept that the timers don't change if the district can get clones generated on them though.

The disincentive comes from distance losses, yes, but also from the lack of rewards.

I've long postulated that Genesis may be the first region for PC. If that is the case, then there are some pockets in that region:

The minipocket constellation of Nazdirer (1 Temperate in Vecamia) is 5 jumps from the Mih midpocket (5 Temperates total). Nazdirer's is also 6 jumps from the Ashela midpocket (4 Temperates) and the Ubar minipocket (2 Temperates). The Nazdirer pocket is 8 jumps from the nearest part of the Monalaz-Meli-EVE megapocket and 12 jumps from the Aven-Makh-Kihkounad megapocket.

A Kaiju corp is not likely to want to hold Vecamia because it is really far from any other planets and those corps can make a lot more money by owning most (or all) of a megapocket. Furthermore, their holdings in the megapocket are easier to reinforce from clones elsewhere in the pocket.

By contrast, Vecamia (the Nazdirer minipocket) can only effectively rely on that one planet for reinforcements. At best, only 55% of the clones sent from the nearest other pocket (Mih) would arrive. That means that corps would more likely have to buy clones (at five times their street value) to make up the difference.

If you are a Shark, then only having a couple of districts on Vecamia VIII is awesome. If you are a Kaiju, then defending districts on Vecamia via clone packs is a waste of money. You could much more cost-effectively attack nearby systems than trying to project force halfway across the region.

In addition, the Shark corps (and Minnows who want to be Sharks) will very quickly realize this and focus their efforts on the minipockets. As a result, the minipockets will be filled with battles. This means that districts belonging to distant corps are likely to be the preferred targets of Minnows and Sharks hoping to win a district by attrition. Since those districts are a net loss for Kaijus and Monsters, the big boys are likely to let those pockets alone.

Please reconsider that 'jumping over hisec'.
It feels unnecessary and reduces the feeling of location.
It wouldn't be bad if there would be sort of islands of lowsec instead of everything connected. Just different. I feel that it would be nice to have clear borders etc.