Dude, I honestly do not care. I shat my pants when I read that FW Economics is coming in the next build.

Dude, I honestly do not care. I shat my pants when I read that FW Economics is coming in the next build.

your math hinges that you hire a ground force that loses 100mil per match no matter the opponent.

not exactly reliable when some will hire some of the strongest corps available that would probably lose less and actually work as a deterrent for attacking the planet.

I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping

Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract?

How does that make any sense?

I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping

Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone.

think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do.

I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to.

thus our differeing philosophy

I just don't want to fight for the Caldari Corporate Dogs, or those deep south Amarr Slavers

Role playing aspect aside slap.

By picking a side you reduce what you get paid because you don't have the option to work for a differen't faction. If gallente controls all the planets there wont be contracts or very few. Lastly, you will have to defend planets when its required not when you want too. So if caldari likes to attack gallente during day or late at night are you going to always be on?

Sorry but being a highly skill merc and corp I don't get why you would want to be dictated what your paid and when you fight.

Dude, I honestly do not care. I shat my pants when I read that FW Economics is coming in the next build.

Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone.

think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do.

I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to.

thus our differeing philosophy

I don't see why Capsuleers can't just set up merc contracts to attack or defend districts, they put up the money, that way no new money is entering into the system, its just flowing from eve to Dust. And they could put a hard cap for the maximum amount "imposed by concord".

I believe more mercs would play for all sides and be "true" immortal mercenaries playing for the highest bidder if they offered some sort of faction specific rewards, be it through LP or added monetary incentives. I think, setting monetary aspect on a back burner, they need to first fully sync our FW system with Eve's by allowing eve corporations to host contracts on particular planets then picking which corp they want to go take the contract. This will remove the shotgun approach to FW that our current system takes and will allow corps to strategically pick which planet to take as well as the corp they want to hire to go take it. Hopefully if they just take baby steps fixing this, one step at a time, we will see a fully functional, worthwhile FW system.

Isn't roullette a money sink, but there is the incentive to play that you could get the big pay out? I saw the term of isk sink as you can dump money into it but you only have a chance for the pay out. Like gambaling.

So I think longer term this is an issue.

However I think you are mixing some issues in.

1 - I would lean towards thinking the Dust "sov" that we are getting in the short term isn't in fact in the FW systems but instead other parts of lowsec.

2 - The payouts will be in Dust ISK not Eve ISK

Yea I can also see the trouble here.

If dust battle is suppose to be EVE isk sink then Capsuleers won't do it because it won't benefit them.
If there is some benefit in hiring dust mercs then Dust isn't EVE isk sink but it will inflat EVE economic even more.

CCP concept of Dust is simply contradict itself

Did I miss something?

Post a link if possible.

EDIT: Nevermind found it.

1-Telc my concern is isk for the eve side FW corps. It has to be worth it to the corp to employ mercs. I know you and I and many many others are tired of pubs and want to do corp battles and take other peoples stuff. th

I tried to stay general because it gets real cloudly on how/if dust based or non FW corps can actually own districts. Just a lot of unknow questions and concerns.

I have no idea how nonFW lowsec will work or what value will be had.

2-isk will be generated eve side to the owners of districts and we will be paid by them (isk sinks) to take or defend said districts.

So to me the correct question is -

Is getting a 25% bonus to the capture status of a FW system worth giving dust mercs eve side ISK to do the capture work?

I don't know how worth it this really is.

Not a bad idea free beers but beta i guess is here to make new emerging corp and solidify foundation of other. Yes you have right corp battle system is terrible right now so why dont give 2xSP and 2x isk 3xsalvage more than pub in the next build, other corp will be more interested and the challenge and the diversification for corp will be better, you have absolutly right with the district system but i maintain my opinion, its too close , i want ccp talk about district come soon in the next build so that fix every dust player what is the kind of game ccp want to bring

So that is indirect benefits really telc. Indirect benefits such as PI bonus or higher LP conversion is for individuals not acutal corps in the militia. There needs to be direct benefits to the corp that owns or wants to own the district/planets for mercs to be employable on a consistant basis.

again so many unknows to work with but the fundamental philosophy of beind and isk sink to eve seems counter productive and broken now

Morathi I agree with the added bonus to dust mercs to play in the corp battles. That is a way to entice and reward with out more isk going to into eve. It just can't be all npc dust side rewards. There needs to be a balance and relationship between pilots/mercs

I know ccp is focused hard to deliver the best mechanics they can. However, if the econmic part isn't there worked out a head of time we could have the best faction warfare system possible and nobody will care.

I just don't want to fight for the Caldari Corporate Dogs, or those deep south Amarr Slavers

Not a bad idea free beers but beta i guess is here to make new emerging corp and solidify foundation of other. Yes you have right corp battle system is terrible right now so why dont give 2xSP and 2x isk 3xsalvage more than pub in the next build, other corp will be more interested and the challenge and the diversification for corp will be better, you have absolutly right with the district system but i maintain my opinion, its too close , i want ccp talk about district come soon in the next build so that fix every dust player what is the kind of game ccp want to bring

Sound good at first but it's actually the worst idea ever :p

Two sister corps will just sit there and farm the hell out of each other ^^"

No offense meant

Sound good at first but it's actually the worst idea ever :p

Two sister corps will just sit there and farm the hell out of each other ^^"

No offense meant

I truly appreciate Free Beers bringing up this topic because I feel it can not be discussed enough.

Some members of CCP did discuss that one of the purposes of Dust is to act as a type of ISK sink, however this is not its only role. Dust, like many things will have the proper incentives to motivation pilots to take part in it if they have "potential benefits" similar to what CCP has discussed previously. The key word here is "potential."

Like all things in Eve there has to be risk involved. Those successful and well coordinated should be able to profit while allowing those disorganized or overconfident to bite off more than they can chew. Right now CCP has only presented us with future ideas or potential benefits. FW is just the beginning and so harbors very small (if any) examples of this.

People not involved in FW in Eve may not truly understand what the purpose of FW truly is in Eve Online. FW is a place for unorganized groups to form-up, it is a place for small group pvp, it is a place of little risk and little reward. FW is only the beginning levels of true PvP and in no way represents the true combat of Eve Online nor will it be the primary gauge of combat for Dust 514 future. It is just what we have right now.

Make no mistake that FW when it comes to DUST/Eve interaction is little more than a test bed of what the future holds.

In the beginning I know there will be organization that will dump billion into Dust if for no other reason than just to say they own Planet A or completely Destroyed Planet B. That being said unless CCP comes forward with the true, tangible benefits and risks of planetry ownership then msot of us will jsut continue to speculate until we bore each other to death.

Theory crafting is great, but when there is a time for what-ifs and a time for substance. The time for real solid info and decision making is now. The whole don't worry it will be cool stuff won't cut it for much longer.

The thing is there has to be an ISK answer to the "why" of the Capsuleer putting up the contract. An Eve pilot isn't going to sink money into Dust corps fighting over districts out of the goodness of his heart.

District control affects FW capture status of the system.

I get Beers' point about the cost of a serious battle, but I suspect most district battles will be happy fun fun time with Zion vs. ScIdama or some other no name carebear corp.

Even if both corps are paid 25 mill for a 24v24 match the match is still bad when you add in vehicle/gear costs. Just using the planet being worth 2 bill a month makes district worth about 175 mill a month in isk. At that rate if the owner is attacked and forced to defend 7 times in a month there goes all the value of the district.

its not really about which corp its about any corp

I'm digging all the logic, Beers, but one question for you:

Are you assuming that every district of every planet will be fought over every month?

Do we even have a rough estimate on the total planets/districts?

From what I remember of my FW days, there were a whole hell of a lot of planets. If there's more than can be reasonably fought over (yes, there will always be hotspots, but speaking macroscopically, some planets will get more attention than others) there's going to be profit in it somewhere.

I imagine that battle hotspots will happen like a roving, incredibly hot spotlight.

I assume just like now districts will be able to be attacked when the attacker chooses. Which means you could have tons of corps laying seige to 1 district on 1 planet all in the same day.

I'm one of those eve nerds with all the spreadsheets so I always calculate the time, effort, reward in anything I do. Thus my concern

You bring up really good points.

At the moment its all temperate planets in FW space and each planet is suppose to have 10-14 districts on them (not to mention the rest of lowsec will have dust sov on planets). I assume just like now districts will be able to be attacked when the attacker chooses. Which means you could have tons of corps laying seige to 1 district on 1 planet all in the same day.

I'm one of those eve nerds with all the spreadsheets so I always calculate the time, effort, reward in anything I do. Thus my concern

Even if both corps are paid 25 mill for a 24v24 match the match is still bad when you add in vehicle/gear costs. Just using the planet being worth 2 bill a month makes district worth about 175 mill a month in isk. At that rate if the owner is attacked and forced to defend 7 times in a month there goes all the value of the district.

its not really about which corp its about any corp

This suddenly announced lowsec SOV for Dust mercs seems like CCP deciding that FW was too broken for us to even participate in.

ie with the broken state of it Eve side, there isn't enough passion to make Eve FW corps pay us to help them win.

Big problem for everyone.

The next build will be ..... Interesting

Or it could be we have different ideas for FW battles. If FW battles and those for control of SOV were identical in all aspects it would be a bit redundant. We want them both to offer something different and to be different than the instant battles. More on this soon.

So you are kinda giving confirmation that FW battles and player owned districts in low-sec are two very different things right ?
I wasnt there when the thread started but i had a few thoughts on how it could end up working based on the CSM minutes and the recent interviews and other podcasts.

FW fights : Opened to both corps and blueberries according to last CAST 514 with Null and Praetorian.
This obviously implies a change in how the whole system works as randoms can't possibly pay 10 Mil to accept a contract. Or a corp that decides to pay a 10 Mil collateral to try and get a specific district will probably not like the idea of seeing blueberries get in the fight on their side (i know i wouldnt like it.)

Also, having randoms being part of the FW fights means the Player Owned Districts (POD from now on) can't be tied to FW as i, and many other people i talked with, suspect.

So that leaves us with all the economics and mechanics question marks.

=> The way i see it : EVE side already has incentives to use mercs to fight in FW as it can help attacking\defending systems faster. Then, the profit comes from usual FW revenue. The main question is how to push players in diving into those fights as EVE corps wont be able to add any money to the mix to avoid massive flows of ISK being transfered from EVE to Dust that way.

So yeah, that pretty much leaves NPC ISK being added to the mix and with more interesting payouts that usual pub games.
In the end, i'm picturing FW as an evolved pub game.

Eve dude sets contracts for districts for free (or with a fixed broker fee). Those appears in mercenary tabs and then it's randoms and or teams diving in and fighting for more money than a classic pub game. Then district goes into some kind of reinforced state to avoid constant switching from side to side.

POD fights: Like many people said. Would happen in other low-sec systems. Probably not all of those available to avoid corps owning too quickly a vast territory and to make sure that fights happens and actually have a meaning. The scale of how many PO planets are available will be critical on that matter as there aint enough corps with real capabilities to own all of it and maintain enough frictions so that fights happen. You all know that wars (good ol wars, not crazy assed wars) happen when there's only a few of something everybody wants. Either space, or ressources. Or both to make it worse.

Then comes a bunch of questions :
- Revenue : probably a "get X amount of ISK in X time" for every district. "Get bonus Isk for owning the entire planet" etc...
- Attacking\defending Mechanics : The main question there is regarding the first attack on a possible POD. Will it be "i saw it first, i got it" ? Will it require two corps to challenge each other so the POD can be owned the first time ?

Then, i guess it's pretty simple :
- attack district
- reinforced timer then battle opens
- fight fight fight (or not if there aint no ennemies)
- district (doesnt) switch
- Goes into a longer reinforced timer so cannot be attacked again for a X amount of time.

The only part that should involve EVE on those POD fights in the first place are OB. Perhaps some PI bonuses regarding taxes or extraction rates for pilots of the alliance\corp but not much more. Then, when adding orbital artillery and other stuff in a later expansion, the interest for pilots that dont PI will rise. Pretty much like the vision of the 0.0 discussed in cast 514 where dusters are seen as a tool of war just like any other ship rather than another component of system SOV.

So yeah, i freakin can't wait to see that devblog !! Hurry up dudes, we're waiting !!

... O_O

I may have talked to much... Back to work for me.

... O_O

I may have talked to much... Back to work for me.

I know that feeling, Fox Four. Did it myself with a few info releases on the MechWarrior Living Legends forums while we were still developing.

BLARGITY!

Hey guys,

Been reading this thread and really want to respond. First and foremost thank you for this thread. These types of discussions are really awesome and help us a lot.

You guys make a lot of really valid points about FW corporation battles; unfortunately, or fortunately depending how you look at it, they won't apply to FW battles much longer. One of the design goals we have right now when it comes to battles that are not the instant battles is that the corporation paying for the fight should be the ones owning the district and controlling who gets in.

I am not going to go into much detail here because I and CCP Nullabor are writing a dev blog on it, but I want you guys to know that we agree with a lot of what you have said and are working on a lot of improvements.

I will also note that your estimate for how much a planet should generate is pretty close to what I have listed in my documentation right here... No matter how much a district makes though, we want to encourage people to attack other districts because giant NAP fests are terrible.

No promise on when the dev blog will be out though.

... O_O

I may have talked to much... Back to work for me.

Even if both corps are paid 25 mill for a 24v24 match the match is still bad when you add in vehicle/gear costs. Just using the planet being worth 2 bill a month makes district worth about 175 mill a month in isk. At that rate if the owner is attacked and forced to defend 7 times in a month there goes all the value of the district.

its not really about which corp its about any corp

Also we need to ability to transfer districts to other corps/alliances just like we do Custom Offices now in EvE.

YES! I think this may be addressed in that corporations can be allowed to take a district FOR you, but not own the district at the end of the battle.

I expect us to be very busy soon (and hopefully with no TM).

Dont worry you merely just confirm a few ideas. I ve been thinking of this for a long time now. ^^
And come on. Talking is good for the soul ;)

Or at least, just tell me if i m seeing all this the right way or if some stuff are very far from what you guyd are planning. Nullarbor woild be totally ok with you doing that i promess :D

BLARGITY!

... No matter how much a district makes though, we want to encourage people to attack other districts because giant NAP fests are terrible.

Well, again, I think your point as regards highly contested districts is valid- some districts will just not be worth fighting over.

On the other hand, I think MOST districts (after perhaps an initial flurry of activity) will be relatively stable, just like star systems in nullsec.

So, while a capsuleer might have to drop 175M ISK to defend District 4 on Intaki V, most will rarely have to do so.

Indeed, I talked with some capsuleer relatives (RP) and they said that they'd probably use the lowest bidder they could find to do jobs.

That suggests to me that if Corp A is expending 25M ISK in a battle and Corp B is expending 10M ISK, then Corp B is likely to win in the end because they can just keep pummeling Corp A until they go broke.

In my mind, this is how it's supposed to work. Corp battles and/or Merc Contracts should be about expending as little ISK as possible to do the job.

... O_O

I may have talked to much... Back to work for me.

Encouraging people to attack other districts is good but you can't stop multiple corps from just seiging a planet until the owner gives up. I'm a baddie and if somone want to pay me to make you give up your district/planets it will happen.

Thus is the way in EvE thus will it be in Dust

PS dust really needs a test server set up. It's best to let me break the game before it goes live

Oow, I love it when y'all talk too much.

Speaking of talking...

This topic of player owned districts was heavily discussed on the recent Boots on the Ground episode. I noticed we got a few hits from Iceland on my blog, so I'm guessing a few of you folks at CCP have listened to / read of our musings on the subject.

Are we close?

Will planetary districts ever be opened as "free roam" areas, where we can spawn as long as our corp / alliance owns the district and we haven't reached a defender limit (e.g. even if a battle isn't happening)?

Will EVE PI dudes ever be able to build the maps the Dust Bunnies fight over?

Can we just make war barges capitals? (Yeah, that one is really out there, I know...

I quiver in anticipation for this new Dev blog. Also the next patch.

Well, again, I think your point as regards highly contested districts is valid- some districts will just not be worth fighting over.

On the other hand, I think MOST districts (after perhaps an initial flurry of activity) will be relatively stable, just like star systems in nullsec.

So, while a capsuleer might have to drop 175M ISK to defend District 4 on Intaki V, most will rarely have to do so.

Indeed, I talked with some capsuleer relatives (RP) and they said that they'd probably use the lowest bidder they could find to do jobs.

That suggests to me that if Corp A is expending 25M ISK in a battle and Corp B is expending 10M ISK, then Corp B is likely to win in the end because they can just keep pummeling Corp A until they go broke.

In my mind, this is how it's supposed to work. Corp battles and/or Merc Contracts should be about expending as little ISK as possible to do the job.

You bring up something that has been really hard for us to figure out. There are so many factors that go into it and finding other examples to base ideas off is really hard because almost no one has done this before.

That something is how much will districts change hands once corporations can own them?

You bring up something that has been really hard for us to figure out. There are so many factors that go into it and finding other examples to base ideas off is really hard because almost no one has done this before.

That something is how much will districts change hands once corporations can own them?

Yes we know we can't stop multiple people ganging up, but can we make attacking more profitable than sitting there doing nothing?

This is where I see lp coming into play. To get LP and sweet gear/loot you need to do corp battles and such. Those wanting it will have to attack a district or planet.

Also I know I put this out last summer but I think mercs need FW and NPC corp tick down. Meaning every day they lose standing. So this means if they want to continue to have high standings and buy sweet loot for a cheaper price they need to fight.

If there is NPC reward/lp/isk/loot for corp battles then the corp paying for it will have ot play less. Thus the concern over dust corp battles being isk sinks that started this whole thread

I hope you are using a persistant control model and not a "attack it, win it, own it" model.

To be specific ill use my idea example

A district has a loyalty rating towards a corp from 0 to 100. You have to have a 60 to actually control it and make changes to it. The higher the number the more its worth.

corp A owns district and is attacked middle of night by corp B for UKland. They win by default since no one is on to defend. There is an 8 hour cooling off period after its been taken where the loyalty number doesn't change. After the 8 hours is up the current holders get a .5 increase per hour. All other corps loyalty will go down .5 per hour.

So it takes days of control to flip the district over. I would say make a corp only able to attack once per day but with the current mechanics of mercs in corp battles you could easily circumvent that by running multiple shell corps. Trust me if there is a way to freif I have planned for it

Couldnt a system like that be exploited ? I mean : Create a bogus corp, attack your district and thus "lock it". Or fight the bogus fight and get a bonus to your district "loyalty" as you put it.

that question of the defense\attack mechanics for Player Owned District and planets is probably the thing that occupies my mind the most since i first started to study dust 2 years back.

Beers, I think that the Distric and Planet Loyalty system (call it Allegiance so it doesn't get confused with LP) would solve tons of the exploitation issues.

Duh, I thought of it way back last summer scrub.

CCP confirms that Telc is right again.

GG newb

CCP confirmed something? Where! O_O

CCP confirmed something? Where! O_O

I'm new to the discussion, but as I see it the devs are going to have to make planetary ownership more expensive overall if they want DUST to be an ISK sink for EVE.

My reasoning;

It has to be cheaper for an EVE corp to employ DUST mercs than to just use their own ships to battle it out.

It there is no economic incentive it won't happen, and if there is an economic incentive it will be a net ISK gain for EVE.


So if no economic incentive curretnly exists to encourage hiring mercs, CCP has to add one.

They could increase the total cost of taking a planet with EVE resources only, or they could outright make it impossible if the other side hired mercs to defend it.

Then hiring mercs would end up costing EVE corps more than they spent in the past, but not as much as not hiring mercs.

There's a nail with a headache in here...

I think the key part you mentioned is EVE players not being able to take a district at all if enemy mercs are on the ground. If that were the case, then it would be a HUGE incentive to employ Dust mercs in any invasion, AND I think it has the added benefit of not having to add in any extra financial trickery with regards to increasing incentive. Doing so may break other things in the delicately balanced economy EVE's got right now.

So, an ISK incentive without an ISK faucet sounds like a pretty good plan to me. No mercs in the district you want? Cool, zoom your destroyer over the district and plant your flag (maybe a quick 10 to 15 min process?).

But if you do this, then whoever owns the district will get a distress message saying your district is under attack, and they have those 10 to 15 minutes to spawn their corp guys on the district and stop you. No Dust mercs logged on? Time to put up a contract and cross your fingers. Don't take space you can't keep.

Hi! I'll add my part in sort of a story.

So (fairly) recently there were merc battles between caldari and something else. I forget, but I'm sure someone remembers. It was for story stuff, there were unfortunately no rewards.

Player: Ok, if we are fighting for Caldari we have to AFK in the back
Me: wtf no
Player: come on, everyone is going to be doing it (insert wall of text here)
Me: Don't care.
Player: [i ]But you have to care! It's (insert more text here)[/i]
Me: Nope, still don't care. I'm here to shoot people in the face.
Player: But it's an important part of the story!
Me: Don't care about the story.

at this point the player became angry

Player: How can you play this game and not care about the story? There's so much going on. You shouldn't be playing it if you're not into the story (or something like that, forgot)
Me: Look, I just put over 1.5 mil ISK into play on the field, and I don't have unlimited time so I want to earn as much SP and ISK as I can per match. This stuff doesn't pay for itself.
Player: Look, if it's ISK you care about I'll reimburse you for your tank and give you 5mil if you run around killing blue dots and making it as easy as possible for the red dots to win.
Me: Oh? How much do I get if we still lose?
Player: I'll reimburse you for your tank and pay you 1mil.
Me: ok, NOW I care. **** the Calamari! DEATH TO ALL BLUE DOTS!

Anyways, I hope that you, the devs, will be able to make the fac war stuff not lose the merc aspect. I was extremely happy that this was happening, because (for me) this is how the game should be. I'm mercing stuff, idc for who or why.

The difficulty might be for corps that do stuff EVE side too. I'm in a corp and alliance that I'm pretty sure is in fac warfare. From what I've heard, they have to do a bunch of work to get on a side or something and fight for it, but once they are there it's hard to switch. I don't want this to happen with DUST. Sure, the corps can tell the Dust players what to do (and pay them!) but I would be very unhappy if the game did not allow me to merc for other sides/people, or made it hard to do so.

So please, do the stuff for peeps who care about Eve and lore. Hopefully you can also make it so that the people who care more about the $ and killing other mercs can enjoy fac warfare or whatever w/o getting forced (by the game) to care about lore and factions.

I'm not against corps choosing what they want their peeps to do, I just want to have the freedom for them to choose.

I got a bit worried about this because I saw stuff from Eve players (it was a meeting or something?) They said they were afraid that Dust mercs wouldn't care about who they were fighting for and why. I just don't want to be forced to care, unless of course, I'm getting as much ISK as I can from the highest bidder. =]

You may want to fight but have no one to fight so you get to pub stomp

Also, 15 to 25 mil ISK is the break-even point against a good team. (This includes tanks, gear, etc., etc.)

50m is where you start to make a good profit in 8 v 8. "Good profit" as in it's worth it for the players to go all out, and if they win they'll make enough money to pay for gear lost and additional gear for the next fight. Given 50 mil isk contracts, I feel like I would make enough ISK from proto vs proto battles against skilled players than I would from Pub stomping.

Sagaris and Surya (well fitted) are between 2mil and 3mil isk each. Lose three, and that's six to nine mil in tank alone. The good dropsuits (proto load out) seem to be around 200k ISK each. If each player dies five times, that's one mil isk lost for each player. For eight man teams, that's 8mil isk.

That also doesn't include other vehicles (like LAVs, dropships, etc., etc.)


The large contracts are unusual, but this is just what I've seen from the few large contracts that I have participated in.

=[ I thought we agreed that we'd be on different sides of fac warfare. I don't want to spend my whole life destroying noob corps and pub stomping!

Maybe we'll have to go talk to What the French. Hopefully they can take your place xD.

A lot of talk about mercs owning districts versus capsuleers owning districts. Speaking of which, mercs and capsuleers are both not part of my browsers dictionary and so have red lines... should add them...

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. DUST versus EVE ownership. STOP IT! Corporations own things. Corporations are in both games. Corporations can have DUST and EVE players. So yea, the question that needs to be asked is how do we get DUST players and EVE players to care about both sides of this. DUST players should care about things in space, and EVE players about things on the ground.

I came here to say something, forget what now because I saw this and had to respond to it. Bah, next time.

"

lol, but what if the corporation is pure dust side? still need a way to control the system

Now take that 8v8 and push it to 24 v 24 and you see my concern with it. I know what we lostvs teams in the tourny with 15 v 15 and its gets expensive quick.

I really think the only way for corp battles to important to mercs is if there is a lot of npc direct and indirect compensation. if the districts if only think of value then it will force dust mercs to have to hold/own districts to make a profit and frankly thats a horrid idea.

Not sure I follow what you mean. I mean, I know you mean DUST players need to control the system. If they want to do that get to know people in EVE. DUST players should not be able to control space without friends in space. Right? . Right?

I think anyways...

A lot of talk about mercs owning districts versus capsuleers owning districts. Speaking of which, mercs and capsuleers are both not part of my browsers dictionary and so have red lines... should add them...

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. DUST versus EVE ownership. STOP IT! Corporations own things. Corporations are in both games. Corporations can have DUST and EVE players. So yea, the question that needs to be asked is how do we get DUST players and EVE players to care about both sides of this. DUST players should care about things in space, and EVE players about things on the ground.

I came here to say something, forget what now because I saw this and had to respond to it. Bah, next time.

...So (fairly) recently there were merc battles between caldari and something else. I forget, but I'm sure someone remembers. It was for story stuff, there were unfortunately no rewards.

You guys are assuming, and maybe correctly so based on how things currently work, that corporation battles are only ISK sinks. Nice thing about EVE is the winner gets the losers loot... mmmmm loot.

don't they already have PI without us mercs?

ssooooo.......

mercs with PI, without eve capsuleers.....

PI is trash and is likely to be removed fro eve online soon.

This is something new both dust and eve players can build on temperate planets if they own them. Not random planet mining. Btw it's not planetary interaction, the features promised were never delivered, at ALL.

Finally eve players will be able to build outposts on planets to build tanks for dust players, which then feed into the real time market. If an area is at war so long it produces less tanks, the price goes up, wars are turned.

The only part that should involve EVE on those POD fights in the first place are OB. Perhaps some PI bonuses regarding taxes or extraction rates for pilots of the alliance\corp but not much more. Then, when adding orbital artillery and other stuff in a later expansion, the interest for pilots that dont PI will rise. Pretty much like the vision of the 0.0 discussed in cast 514 where dusters are seen as a tool of war just like any other ship rather than another component of system SOV.

So yeah, i freakin can't wait to see that devblog !! Hurry up dudes, we're waiting !!

Yes please also include getting back 10% of your own lost gear if you are on the winning side, just like in eve online.

Forgive my EVE ignorance as I've never played it, nor do I have much of an idea as to how our games will merge effectively, but would not a role for EVE pilots be to actually get Dust mercs to a planet in order to attack a rival Dust corp's district or planet? I know I have heard a bunch about EVE pilots needing mercs to take districts and planets, but I have heard about Dust mercs (possibly?) needing EVE pilots for orbitals. However, I haven't heard much about the mechanics of how we Dust bunnies will get to planets for conquest. I guess up until now I assumed there would be "NPC" ships that always successfully transport us mercs to our desired location. Thus, how we always start in our warbarge waiting to assault the planet in our MCC.

It would be alot more interesting, though, if we had have or contract our own EVE pilots to get us to attack destination safely and if there was a chance we didn't always make it due to intercepting spacecraft or planetary defenses.

Oh so here is one idea for the devs. Let corporations work for gaining a homebase district. This would require upkeep and large investment in building and player count. Say you need 200 mercs to start.

Then make it so your home system can not be taken. Untill you drop below 200 members. Meaning once you push a corp back to one district, you can only win the war by convincing them it's too expensive to stay in the corp and they bail, leaving the district open.

Long term this would be awesome. However we have to be REALLY careful about this type of thing. CCP stated a long time ago that the two games would be developed to not rely on one another. If one stopped existing for some reason, got hit with an asteroid for example (or had a circus elephant run through the server room. mad props if anyone gets that reference.) the other should still work.

Maybe a bonus for having EVE players do it though?
Or EVE players required to get DUST players to certain planets?. Discussion on this kind of topic is always awesome though. Love hearing how you guys think the games should interact.

he said it, they're working towards something like that, i KNEW it!

he said it, they're working towards something like that, i KNEW it!

was Caldari vs. MorduGÇÖs Legion.

We go into battle against several corps running all proto gear and I am convinced at the end of they day even though we lost the contract they lost more ISK. It's silly.

I view there being a tangible future benefit to DUST mercs being allied with specific corporations and alliances, in order to have a home, infrastructure, industry, etc. Meanwhile, a friend says that as "mercenaries", DUST players should be responsible to no one, not ally with any specific EVE forces, and work for the highest bidder, in whatever realm of space that might be.

Why just your stuff? If you hold the field why not loot the whole field? Honest question.

It is. That's why most peeps play pub matches in MLT gear. In corp battles, it's more like "don't be an idiot and lose it" or just don't use it at all. I like using weaker gear in pub games because it's more fun, but there needs to be some time when I can pull out the nice stuff.

I definitely agree that there needs to be a time to use all the nice stuff, but there also needs to be a place for start up corps to battle other corps around their level outside of public matches.

Right now there's almost never an ISK incentive to do a corp battle.

I like them, but I still have to get all of my isk from pub stomping. Giving me isk from pve isn't going to make me feel better either, as I want to have organized matches against decent opponents!

I DOUBLE POSTED! :D I feel initiated now.

This comes down to who is offering the reward and what is on the line as a risk for them. The fact that the best defense for FW is to not accept the defense contracts... is broken.

What would be awesome is an area of space that players own districts, make money, make more money by attacking, and the fighting is so intense that only the best survive. That would be awesome.

gbghg will feel so happy to have company

feeling lonely in the pot?( and it's my crappy wifi, there's a reason my ps3 has an ethernet cable in it

You seem to miss the point not every corp wants to own districts but still want to fight corp battles. What I am hearing is "this isk/reward is in owning the districts". So I assume thats passive isk/resources/lp to be earned for it? Which if I remember correctly is how nullsec became a big blue bag of fun.

Tell me where I am wrong?

You seem to miss the point not every corp wants to own districts but still want to fight corp battles. What I am hearing is "this isk/reward is in owning the districts". So I assume thats passive isk/resources/lp to be earned for it? Which if I remember correctly is how nullsec became a big blue bag of fun.

Tell me where I am wrong?

I should really finish that dev blog.

My apologies, I did miss understand that. You are correct though that not all DUST corporations will want to participate in owning districts when that eventually does come around.

We are aware of that. The really nice thing about corporation battles right now is that they allow two corporations just to set up an arena type match. If you remove the FW bit of them they can be fun with limited to no risks and rewards or extremely competitive with lots of ISK on the line. This is something we are aware of and are actively thinking about.

As for the null sec NAP fest: The problem with null sec in EVE as I see it is that an organization (corporation, alliance, coalition, whatever) will expand and take as much territory as they can hold, or think they can hold. Once they have reached that limit they stop. Then they start adding friends on so they they are even safer. There is no point in attacking anything except for the explosions (which I think are awesome) or for taking it. If you are extended to the limit though taking it is not really an option.

Stop for a moment, this is just random chit chat and discussion here, even though I know some of you will still run off as if this is all done and done, this is just me discussing stuff because discussion is fun.

Anyways, what if once you own whatever you think you can you still wanted to attack. Not because you want more stuff, but because after an attack the winner walks away with more than they would have if they sat there and did nothing. So you can sit there and just make money, but attacking without the intention to take ownership gives you the chance to make more money.

Thoughts?

Again, random discussion.

this is funner

I should really finish that dev blog.

My apologies, I did miss understand that. You are correct though that not all DUST corporations will want to participate in owning districts when that eventually does come around.

We are aware of that. The really nice thing about corporation battles right now is that they allow two corporations just to set up an arena type match. If you remove the FW bit of them they can be fun with limited to no risks and rewards or extremely competitive with lots of ISK on the line. This is something we are aware of and are actively thinking about.

As for the null sec NAP fest: The problem with null sec in EVE as I see it is that an organization (corporation, alliance, coalition, whatever) will expand and take as much territory as they can hold, or think they can hold. Once they have reached that limit they stop. Then they start adding friends on so they they are even safer. There is no point in attacking anything except for the explosions (which I think are awesome) or for taking it. If you are extended to the limit though taking it is not really an option.

Stop for a moment, this is just random chit chat and discussion here, even though I know some of you will still run off as if this is all done and done, this is just me discussing stuff because discussion is fun.

Anyways, what if once you own whatever you think you can you still wanted to attack. Not because you want more stuff, but because after an attack the winner walks away with more than they would have if they sat there and did nothing. So you can sit there and just make money, but attacking without the intention to take ownership gives you the chance to make more money.

Thoughts?

Again, random discussion.

Anyways, what if once you own whatever you think you can you still wanted to attack. Not because you want more stuff, but because after an attack the winner walks away with more than they would have if they sat there and did nothing. So you can sit there and just make money, but attacking without the intention to take ownership gives you the chance to make more money.

If it's an initial "NPC reward", corps can just attack themselves for $. Will the reward from attacking be more than not even if you lose control because the mercs you paid have finished their contract? It seems risky -.0

I think it's highly likely that you'll get a monopoly like IRL. Corps will just have agreements with each other not to attack themselves, because everyone will make more isk if no one has to spend resources to defend.

My apologies, I did miss understand that. You are correct though that not all DUST corporations will want to participate in owning districts when that eventually does come around.

We are aware of that. The really nice thing about corporation battles right now is that they allow two corporations just to set up an arena type match. If you remove the FW bit of them they can be fun with limited to no risks and rewards or extremely competitive with lots of ISK on the line. This is something we are aware of and are actively thinking about.

As for the null sec NAP fest: The problem with null sec in EVE as I see it is that an organization (corporation, alliance, coalition, whatever) will expand and take as much territory as they can hold, or think they can hold. Once they have reached that limit they stop. Then they start adding friends on so they they are even safer. There is no point in attacking anything except for the explosions (which I think are awesome) or for taking it. If you are extended to the limit though taking it is not really an option.

Stop for a moment, this is just random chit chat and discussion here, even though I know some of you will still run off as if this is all done and done, this is just me discussing stuff because discussion is fun.

Anyways, what if once you own whatever you think you can you still wanted to attack. Not because you want more stuff, but because after an attack the winner walks away with more than they would have if they sat there and did nothing. So you can sit there and just make money, but attacking without the intention to take ownership gives you the chance to make more money.

Thoughts?

Again, random discussion.

Dust needs to retain the fps part when it comes to simplicity. In eve its hurry up and wait for fleet battles or fleet roams. Hell even hisec wardecs are cat and mouse. In dust it is log in, count heads, find contracts, shoot face.

PLEASE LET US TRANSFER DISTRICTS TOO!!!! I would love to be able to buy/sell districts but there needs to be a actual build in contract tranfers and there needs to be roles/8 hour window for it

I fully support corps owning districts and planets and having rewards for maintaining them but the economy needs to function outside that. If you make is that all the isk/reward in controlling a district and it takes time to convert that district (I'm assuming again its not a win it, flip it model) then large corps/alliance will do to lowsec when we have done to nullsec.

a way to counter the above is to make defending pay more.

the more you own the more you make. the attackers don't make much initially, but if they manage to take control of the area, once they start getting attacked, they make the iskies(if they can hold it)

To be honest I would rather like to see it get harder and harder to take more space. Maybe even exponentially harder. Each district should represent something and none should feel entirely irrelevant. People new and small should feel like they are earning and single organizations shouldn't hold large swaths of space. That being said at every chance we get I want us to show who owns what. If someone owns a planet, or all the planets in a solar system, or all the systems in a constellation I want their logo EVERYWHERE. The corporations are so vitally important to the social nature of this game.

Few random thoughts....

One thing -

Talking about districts is a failure.

It's either you own the whole planet or its nothing.

Having to fight 14 simultaneous districts at a time to take or hold a planet would be complete crap.

In other words there needs to be a battlefront such that you can only attack one district at a time and you lose the right to keep attacking at some point after losing 1-3x.

One thing -

Talking about districts is a failure.

It's either you own the whole planet or its nothing.

Having to fight 14 simultaneous districts at a time to take or hold a planet would be complete crap.

In other words there needs to be a battlefront such that you can only attack one district at a time and you lose the right to keep attacking at some point after losing 1-3x.

have you forgotten that we will be dropping from orbit, there is no reason why we can't hit multiple districts simultaneously, and it will make things vastly more interesting as some districts will fall and others will be held leading to a patchwork of control across a planet. It will also prevent corps from deploying their a-teams in every battle and ensure much wider participation of players in battles over planets.

I have a theory that this is the initial cause of the nap fests.

You sure you want this?

24players x14 districts....

Why? We can look at planets as a unit or districts as a unit. Both are just units. Want to own a system own all the planets versus want to own a planet own all the districts. Six of one half a dozen of the other. Except if we do districts planets, solar systems, constellations, and regions are all bigger achievements. It really comes down to what do we want the first achievement to be, a district or a planet?

Again though, if you just own planets owning 14 planets is the same as owning 14 districts instead.

You sure you want this?

24players x14 districts....

It would force dust alliances to actually work together to hold territory, rather than having each corp trying to control it's own little empire, and imagine the scale things would reach if you tried to hit an entire system in one go, thinking about it gets me reaaly excited about what this game could become.

No, I meant that planets should be taken district by district until the entire planet is either owned or not. No income until the whole thing is owned.

When the planet is attacked its at one point ie a "landing" point. Ideally as the fight progresses across the surface multiple maps might open for a fight at the same time (2-3?)....

No, I meant that planets should be taken district by district until the entire planet is either owned or not. No income until the whole thing is owned.

When the planet is attacked its at one point ie a "landing" point. Ideally as the fight progresses across the surface multiple maps might open for a fight at the same time (2-3?)....

You sure you want this?

24players x14 districts....

24x14 = 336 players already to go into matches simultaneously.

Sounds...idiotic

My thoughts:

1) Using the gear/vehicle loses from the tourney teams I could easily forecast each side losing over 100mill isk in gear per match when we hit 24v24....

I think the progression idea is fine but only getting benefits if you own the entire planet doesn't work for me at all.

This.

If someone wants to take out America (without nukes) they would pick a landing zone or two on the same coast and hit them at the same time. They may take LAX and maybe PHX. They would gain the benifits fo the ports / harbors in LAX and well theres nothing to gain for PHX but you need to take it to move westward. You obviously cant drop right in on Dallas or Chicago and except to take the country from us silly well-armed Americans.

There should be key districts that could be wealth / resource centers that net the holding faction some sort of bonus. The bonus could be actual bonus or a determinant bonus. Using the example above if someone takes out DC well the military might be in a bit of a disarray for a bit which may make it easier to take some of the other coast line cities.

Bigger / more valuable planets would have more districts. You cant say every planet would have 14 districts, because that would assume every planet is the same and well nothing is the same in eve or in life. I think figuring out what benefits and district sizes is the start to really implementing them properly. After that progression is easy.

my .02 isk

This.

If someone wants to take out America (without nukes) they would pick a landing zone or two on the same coast and hit them at the same time. They may take LAX and maybe PHX. They would gain the benifits fo the ports / harbors in LAX and well theres nothing to gain for PHX but you need to take it to move westward. You obviously cant drop right in on Dallas or Chicago and except to take the country from us silly well-armed Americans.

There should be key districts that could be wealth / resource centers that net the holding faction some sort of bonus. The bonus could be actual bonus or a determinant bonus. Using the example above if someone takes out DC well the military might be in a bit of a disarray for a bit which may make it easier to take some of the other coast line cities.

Bigger / more valuable planets would have more districts. You cant say every planet would have 14 districts, because that would assume every planet is the same and well nothing is the same in eve or in life. I think figuring out what benefits and district sizes is the start to really implementing them properly. After that progression is easy.

my .02 isk

This.

If someone wants to take out America (without nukes) they would pick a landing zone or two on the same coast and hit them at the same time. They may take LAX and maybe PHX. They would gain the benifits fo the ports / harbors in LAX and well theres nothing to gain for PHX but you need to take it to move westward. You obviously cant drop right in on Dallas or Chicago and except to take the country from us silly well-armed Americans.

There should be key districts that could be wealth / resource centers that net the holding faction some sort of bonus. The bonus could be actual bonus or a determinant bonus. Using the example above if someone takes out DC well the military might be in a bit of a disarray for a bit which may make it easier to take some of the other coast line cities.

Bigger / more valuable planets would have more districts. You cant say every planet would have 14 districts, because that would assume every planet is the same and well nothing is the same in eve or in life. I think figuring out what benefits and district sizes is the start to really implementing them properly. After that progression is easy.

my .02 isk

Not sure I would put much effort into this for any kind of first pass at this kind of thing when we do get around to it. I can see the need for it, but I can also see the need for so many other things of higher priority.



You are correct and we are already thinking about this kind of stuff. It makes ones head spin though. I have said in a few other places how hard this kind of thing is. At least it is for me. Trying to find any kind of reference or example for this kind of stuff is just impossible. Gotta love having a research and statistics department though. Love those guys.