DUST Search - FW Economic Model Concerns -CCP Nothin-

Vrain Matari wrote:

Beren Hurin wrote:

CCP FoxFour wrote:

just thinking more randomness here, what if timers were publicly known things? So if Friday comes around, you know you want to have a bunch of fights for your corp, so you attack different places spreading the attacks out over the time you know your corp will be online?

Just a thought, what do you guys think?

Timers could be connected to the 'orbit' of your warbarge. Additionally, types of orbits that you choose ahead of time (or are even able to choose) would be based on other hostile district defenses, type of invading war barge, and location of the district on the planet.

Geosynchronous/solar synchronous - period of orbit corresponds to rotation of planet, mainly equatorial in inclination. Advantage: low energy, easy to predict timing, more distance covered. Disadvantage: shorter windows of time in each time zone, move distance (threats) covered.

Geostationary - no period of orbit, remains over one location. Time of attack could occur at any moment, vulnerable from district attack at all times.

Polar orbit - can be used to remain in one hemisphere all day and in half the time zones 2x each day. Inclination is perpendicular to equator.

Halo orbit - using other nearby objects along with organic propulsion for a customised orbit. Higher energy, but useful to precisely time exposure to a specific time zone. Minimal exposure to planetary counter attack.

Then you have other degrees of inclination and eccentricity, closed and escape orbits etc. That 'could' be an aspect of designing an attack; creating an approach for your warbarge that makes it least vulnerable to attack while it is stationing. You could justify a 'stationing' orbital approach as required due to the sensitive nature of nanite equipment and consciousness transferral synchronicity.

Most attacks could occur with a geostationary approach directly over a district, but if you had to stage a minimum of 3 hours ahead of time, that would mean your barge would have 3 hours it could be attacked from the district. Alternatively, you could choose from a customized variety of others to reduce your time over hostile districts, or the time your barge spends in outer-space vs. 'orbital/atmospheric space' vulnerable to eve pilots.

Real physics-based orbital mechanics would add a hella lot to EVE & DUST on several different levels. We need it.

There are a couple of issues.

First & foremost is that the oldest legacy code in EVE is the pyhsucs/celestial mechanics engine, and it is entangled in a hideous cthulonic fashion(mmmmm.....tekspeak) with just about every other piece of EVE code. Please jump in Devs, been awhile since i've heard anyone speak directly to this.

The refactoring project required to fix this is huge, essentially a complete rewrite of the core EVE code. I like to think of it as the programming equivalent of the CCP viking-entity stripping naked, greasing itself up with seal fat, holding its knife between its teeth and wedging itself down through a wee fissure in the rocks so they can drop down onto the back of a primaeval cave-bear that has been terrorizing the village. Or something like that. Things could get messy.

Secondly, there is a valid concern that if this is done it would completely mess with the bookmark system in EVE. This is true, but i say tough cookies. The moral of the story is don't pick a fight with Issac Newton re celestial mechanics. Sooner or later, you'll loose. Time to bow your knee to the master, CCP.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 69 post(s)
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 183	Posted - 2013.02.26 17:37:00 - [1] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: You bring up something that has been really hard for us to figure out. There are so many factors that go into it and finding other examples to base ideas off is really hard because almost no one has done this before. That something is how much will districts change hands once corporations can own them? Wouldn't the upper limit there be something like, "As much as your composite/aggregate corp forces are determined to fight...?" That is first a manpower question, then it is will have other constraints just like SOV warfare. -What % of people want to participate in flipping districts/ how easy is it to participate? O wouldn't be suprised if numbers here are similar to Eve demographics in terms of nullsec vs. highsec participation. -What will be the incentive threshold that pushes people out of the PvE content toward PvP POD warfare? -How much can people participate before burnout sets in? -How many people does it take to flip a district/vs defend your own? The more you flip the more vulnerable you are... -How do the mechanics being built help to constrain/enhance corporations' efforts in the above?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 183	Posted - 2013.02.26 23:01:00 - [2] - Quote Free Beers wrote: My thoughts: 1) Using the gear/vehicle loses from the tourney teams I could easily forecast each side losing over 100mill isk in gear per match when we hit 24v24.... What about MCCs being destroyed each match? That's going to have to be a big cost of losing.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 184	Posted - 2013.02.27 15:08:00 - [3] - Quote I'm also seeing possible scenarios where teams may post contracts for cheap to see if weak teams will take the bait to attack their own districts in hope that they make money on the salvage.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 190	Posted - 2013.02.28 14:23:00 - [4] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: just thinking more randomness here, what if timers were publicly known things? So if Friday comes around, you know you want to have a bunch of fights for your corp, so you attack different places spreading the attacks out over the time you know your corp will be online? Just a thought, what do you guys think? Timers could be connected to the 'orbit' of your warbarge. Additionally, types of orbits that you choose ahead of time (or are even able to choose) would be based on other hostile district defenses, type of invading war barge, and location of the district on the planet. Geosynchronous/solar synchronous - period of orbit corresponds to rotation of planet, mainly equatorial in inclination. Advantage: low energy, easy to predict timing, more distance covered. Disadvantage: shorter windows of time in each time zone, move distance (threats) covered. Geostationary - no period of orbit, remains over one location. Time of attack could occur at any moment, vulnerable from district attack at all times. Polar orbit - can be used to remain in one hemisphere all day and in half the time zones 2x each day. Inclination is perpendicular to equator. Halo orbit - using other nearby objects along with organic propulsion for a customised orbit. Higher energy, but useful to precisely time exposure to a specific time zone. Minimal exposure to planetary counter attack.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 190	Posted - 2013.02.28 14:25:00 - [5] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Tau painted white and blue. On topic: But a fight when no one is defending is not really a fight is it? I SWARE!!!! if you put reinforcement timers into dust, i will paint your server pink, and advertise free pink shiny stuff on the web! Isn't it structure grinding that makes timers annoying in Eve? Not the timers themselves?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 190	Posted - 2013.02.28 14:47:00 - [6] - Quote Skihids wrote: How much time does it require to move a war barge into place and launch an MCC, and at what point would that be detectable by the defenders? It would seem to me that defines a minimum attack timer because you can't just drop from an empty sky. I'm not an EVE player, but it's also logical to assume that you can keep track of how many of what kinds of ships are moving through the gates, perhaps even employing spies to keep tabs on enemy war barges. That would result in a greater warning. I'm hoping they would work this way: War barges have one of many states they could be in at any moment: Reserve (invulnerable): orbiting around someplace benign or friendly (a moon w/o a POS, or an unsettled barren planet). Detectable if scanned down or on planetary/moon grid. In route (invulnerable): traveling to its next location based on the type of war barge and distance this takes a predefined time, automatic, detectable, and no pilot is needed. Outer orbital approach: (Eve-vulnerable only): A narrow window of time (minutes) that the barge will give a warning to planetary district owners. It will also appear on grid over the planet. Once in this phase, barge owners cannot change it's flight plan. Stationing orbit (Dust vulnerable only): period of time before a barge is only in planetary orbit. It can only be targetted above districts with planetary defenses. Would have a minimum stationing orbit period. Owning multiple districts with defenses would make this more difficult depending on the orbit of approach. A barge could be in this mode for as long as it could survive the planetary defenses it is over. The strongest planetary defenses would barely allow for an average war barge to last much longer than an hour over its district, which would mean a corp would have to enter stationing obit just out side of the districts range, do a 23 hour orbit, and then get a single chance to attack. Weaker defenses would be able to kill barges after multiple passes. Barges could only be healed in freindly districts. Stationed (Dust vulnerable only): The barge is active and in the window where it can launch an attack on its intended district. Its possible to make an orbit over multiple districts where multiple stationed timers could occur.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 193	Posted - 2013.02.28 18:49:00 - [7] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: just thinking more randomness here, what if timers were publicly known things? So if Friday comes around, you know you want to have a bunch of fights for your corp, so you attack different places spreading the attacks out over the time you know your corp will be online? Just a thought, what do you guys think? Timers could be connected to the 'orbit' of your warbarge. Additionally, types of orbits that you choose ahead of time (or are even able to choose) would be based on other hostile district defenses, type of invading war barge, and location of the district on the planet. Geosynchronous/solar synchronous - period of orbit corresponds to rotation of planet, mainly equatorial in inclination. Advantage: low energy, easy to predict timing, more distance covered. Disadvantage: shorter windows of time in each time zone, move distance (threats) covered. Geostationary - no period of orbit, remains over one location. Time of attack could occur at any moment, vulnerable from district attack at all times. Polar orbit - can be used to remain in one hemisphere all day and in half the time zones 2x each day. Inclination is perpendicular to equator. Halo orbit - using other nearby objects along with organic propulsion for a customised orbit. Higher energy, but useful to precisely time exposure to a specific time zone. Minimal exposure to planetary counter attack. Then you have other degrees of inclination and eccentricity, closed and escape orbits etc. That 'could' be an aspect of designing an attack; creating an approach for your warbarge that makes it least vulnerable to attack while it is stationing. You could justify a 'stationing' orbital approach as required due to the sensitive nature of nanite equipment and consciousness transferral synchronicity. Most attacks could occur with a geostationary approach directly over a district, but if you had to stage a minimum of 3 hours ahead of time, that would mean your barge would have 3 hours it could be attacked from the district. Alternatively, you could choose from a customized variety of others to reduce your time over hostile districts, or the time your barge spends in outer-space vs. 'orbital/atmospheric space' vulnerable to eve pilots. Real physics-based orbital mechanics would add a hella lot to EVE & DUST on several different levels. We need it. There are a couple of issues. First & foremost is that the oldest legacy code in EVE is the pyhsucs/celestial mechanics engine, and it is entangled in a hideous cthulonic fashion(mmmmm.....tekspeak) with just about every other piece of EVE code. Please jump in Devs, been awhile since i've heard anyone speak directly to this. The refactoring project required to fix this is huge, essentially a complete rewrite of the core EVE code. I like to think of it as the programming equivalent of the CCP viking-entity stripping naked, greasing itself up with seal fat, holding its knife between its teeth and wedging itself down through a wee fissure in the rocks so they can drop down onto the back of a primaeval cave-bear that has been terrorizing the village. Or something like that. Things could get messy. Secondly, there is a valid concern that if this is done it would completely mess with the bookmark system in EVE. This is true, but i say tough cookies. The moral of the story is don't pick a fight with Issac Newton re celestial mechanics. Sooner or later, you'll loose. Time to bow your knee to the master, CCP. I don't think you have to mess with Eve physics. I currently don't know how you get to the districts in Eve, but it'd work the same way for finding war barges. The barges wouldn't appear on their paths in Eve, but only through a HUD in Dust.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 198	Posted - 2013.03.04 15:04:00 - [8] - Quote Has anyone suggested a sort of slow going mode kind of like 'slay' from the PS Home game of the week? There would be significant amounts of open land between the main money making districts, and moving would sort of be turn/timer based...?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors Reverberation Project 497	Posted - 2013.05.30 19:24:00 - [9] - Quote I'm still concerned about how important it is to make FW relevant. The current added value of FW right now is 85% Eve side and the 15% Dust side is mostly social. The longer queue times and battle lengths and odds of getting into a battle you want means that you end up making less if you plan on stringing FW battles together. You could make the argument that what you lose in isk efficiency you can make up in coordination experience. Either way, I think a large group of people are looking for an update or at least a sign from the CPM that this is something that is going to be iterated on soon.