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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 69 post(s) |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
405
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Posted - 2013.02.26 17:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Fantastic discussion peeps. I luuuuuuv to see the game mechanics discussions spanning EVE/DUST and making it obvious that we are really talking about life in New Eden.
It sounds like our erstwhile devs and designers have plans for Faction Warfare, which is very good news.
What follows is not a critisism, but more a 'New Eden is always evolving' kind of argument.
FW was brought out as a response to the questions:
'How do we motivate peeps to get out of hisec, engage in pvp, and maybe use that experience as a springboard to end up out in nullsec, where tbh we have invested a disproportionate amount of devtime?' and 'What the hell do we do with losec?'.
It's had its successes and failures, it provides LP rewards, can have standings repercussions, provides small-group pvp, gets peeps into losec, etc. FW has seen a couple of passes and various tweaks, and it does serve a role in the game to a not-insignificant group of players.
Imo it fails because it is arbitrary. It is not tied in to any larger political picture(even though some nullsec alliances have a FW presence), doesn't have much of an influence on resource extraction/manufacturing/research etc. Atm, it is basically unconnected to hi and nullsec. It was a solution to a game-design problem, and not integrated into the bones of New Eden in any meaninful way.
I can go on about this at length, but will spare you all the wall of text.
The short and sweet version of my proposal for the cure to this is geopolitics. This means tangible strategic resources and structures and also intangible benefits to logistic considerations(eg. the transport of minerals between hi and losec is problematic atm). And these resources/benefits should tie into both the null and hisec game, resulting in a more integrated New Eden ripe for emergent behaviours.
Lastly, the ultimate value of taking these planets should be synergistic - mutual co-development of terrestrial(by Mercs) and orbital resources(by Pilots) should increase the benefits of planetery ownership/losec sov by a strategically valuable amount. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
407
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Posted - 2013.02.27 06:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Free Beers wrote:I go and play dust and of course IWS ruins the most epic awesome thread of the year by posting in it Also no reinforcement timers will be here. CCP can give up dust if they do that and they wont they learned from nullsec already As I said before it will have to be a persistant control model where by districts have a loyalty or alligiance factor the ticks up for whose in control of it. while ticking down for everyone else. if not ccp is fail if they learned nothing from they way old fw was Lots of great material here for the devs.
Mechanics can vary and can be tweaked until we find a system that works, that stays dynamic and that can't be over-sploited. But unless the Districts are tied to relevant strategic resources, etc., it's all a paper tiger.
The motivations for district ownership have to be real, with repercussions felt by DUST and EVE corps/alliances.
It's the bones of the thing, and the single most important thing CCP needs to get right in this whole process. The rest can be adjusted later. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
407
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Posted - 2013.02.27 15:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:I'm also seeing possible scenarios where teams may post contracts for cheap to see if weak teams will take the bait to attack their own districts in hope that they make money on the salvage. I see nothing wrong with this, This may also work for the 'exponential' increase in the difficulty of maintaining large terrestrial empires, and tie into the new player experience.
The manpower required for regular 'patrols'(maybe rogue drone supression) could be made to scale with district area(or the exponetial of the area, it you want to keep empires really small), thus requiring larger/more frequent patrols.
Contracting out patrol duties feels like an organic way to integrate players of differing skills/experience/resources. These patrol contracts should not be cakewalks, and sucess or failure should have a real effect on the fortunes/headache level of the territory owner. I'd suggest the degradation/destruction of facilities required to upgrade the territory.
These patrol contracts would then function as an informal feeder mechanism for other corps - a good patrol contract record would show a merc or corp at least had a handle on the basic game mechanics.
But most importantly, this approach has a coherent storytelling aspect to it that integrates naturally with the New Eden backstory and ethos. That should be the principle driving and shaping force for any mechanics we come up with in this thread. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
408
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Posted - 2013.02.27 18:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
A'Real Fury wrote:A few quicks thoughts. Sorry if it has been mentioned before as this is a pretty long thread.
Outside of ideological reasons I think a lot of wars are fought over resources i.e you lack something you need or want something somebody else has.
Now to avoid nap fests going on too long you can limit the amount of resources that can be derived from a given district by gradually reducing the amount of it available until you hit a minimum baseline. This would result in a weakness that others can exploit, particularly if you link resource consumption to battles. The more fights in your district, even if you win, will result in repairs needing to be made and disruption to production. This could allow small corps or even individuals into Sovereign wars as they could be used for hit and run tactics, smash and grabs, and espionage to test out or even create instability into the system.
Also resource reduction will result in these static corps moving onto greener pastures. Once this district has changed hands the new corp could use new "methods" to gradually increase production to where it was before it gradually declines again.
With large corps employing small, deniable asset, corps in a low intensity war with sovereign nations will eventually lead to all out large scale conflicts because those nations will only see their resources being depleted through equipment loss etc. These small corps could also use low cost militia gear attacks with the intent to damage production and equipment with little Isk cost to them. This way the small corps can stay profitable because their costs are very limited and the big corp/nation can employ lots of them to attack districts etc.
Within district attacks you could even reduce it to attacking specific building e.g the building where the corp stores some or a lot of their tanks which could then be destroyed or even stolen, though more likely to steal dropsuits, weapons , modules or even the resource being produced.
I think it would be interesting to have specific skills available that would allow a player to increase resources that could be derived from that district making them particulary valuable to corps who want to hold districts even to the point of hiring them away from their current corps or skills like sabotage/high explosives to allow players to create a disproportionate amount of damage in sneak or hit and run campaigns.
Hopefully these possibilities would result in a more fluid battle environment. ^ This is the point exactly. +1.
It's the underlying resource politics that need to inform the discussion of mechanics. This is how you build a system for longevity and playability. These systems need to be built fron the bottom up if they are to have any kind of coherent structure to them.
If you make the design error of trying to paste an arbitrary set of mechanics onto an underlying set of resource mechanics what I'd expecty you to end up with is a system with inherent pathologies.
Done right, player actions are driven and connected to real politics and hence other players, and not merely driven by max/min-ing a ruleset. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
408
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Posted - 2013.02.27 19:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:It is a decent sized post with several points. Are you +1ing the whole thing or something specific? I'm really +1ing something general but important when trying to design for complex systems.
A'Real Fury's post is a perfect illustration of how if one implements a resource model that supports the kind of player dynamics you're looking for re: District conquest/ownership, mechanics naturally evolve out of that resource model.
We can see from the ideas developed in his post how naturally they flow once his resource model is set, and how fertile having a model is in terms of content development.
Now imagine trying to design the same kind of rich player behavior from a top-down Ruleset for District/Planet conquest and development. It's the back-engineering project from hell. And if anything needs to be changed later, god help you. Whereas a change to the resouce model propogates changes organically through your whole system.
And apologies if this is perfectly obvious to all concerned - i was getting worried with all the discussion about mechanics not grounded to anything. Maybe it's assumed in the discission and I'm just not seeing it. Better safe than sorry, though, so i'm making a point out of it. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
409
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Posted - 2013.02.28 17:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:just thinking more randomness here, what if timers were publicly known things? So if Friday comes around, you know you want to have a bunch of fights for your corp, so you attack different places spreading the attacks out over the time you know your corp will be online?
Just a thought, what do you guys think? Timers could be connected to the 'orbit' of your warbarge. Additionally, types of orbits that you choose ahead of time (or are even able to choose) would be based on other hostile district defenses, type of invading war barge, and location of the district on the planet. Geosynchronous/solar synchronous - period of orbit corresponds to rotation of planet, mainly equatorial in inclination. Advantage: low energy, easy to predict timing, more distance covered. Disadvantage: shorter windows of time in each time zone, move distance (threats) covered. Geostationary - no period of orbit, remains over one location. Time of attack could occur at any moment, vulnerable from district attack at all times. Polar orbit - can be used to remain in one hemisphere all day and in half the time zones 2x each day. Inclination is perpendicular to equator. Halo orbit - using other nearby objects along with organic propulsion for a customised orbit. Higher energy, but useful to precisely time exposure to a specific time zone. Minimal exposure to planetary counter attack. Then you have other degrees of inclination and eccentricity, closed and escape orbits etc. That 'could' be an aspect of designing an attack; creating an approach for your warbarge that makes it least vulnerable to attack while it is stationing. You could justify a 'stationing' orbital approach as required due to the sensitive nature of nanite equipment and consciousness transferral synchronicity. Most attacks could occur with a geostationary approach directly over a district, but if you had to stage a minimum of 3 hours ahead of time, that would mean your barge would have 3 hours it could be attacked from the district. Alternatively, you could choose from a customized variety of others to reduce your time over hostile districts, or the time your barge spends in outer-space vs. 'orbital/atmospheric space' vulnerable to eve pilots. Real physics-based orbital mechanics would add a hella lot to EVE & DUST on several different levels. We need it.
There are a couple of issues.
First & foremost is that the oldest legacy code in EVE is the pyhsucs/celestial mechanics engine, and it is entangled in a hideous cthulonic fashion(mmmmm.....tekspeak) with just about every other piece of EVE code. Please jump in Devs, been awhile since i've heard anyone speak directly to this.
The refactoring project required to fix this is huge, essentially a complete rewrite of the core EVE code. I like to think of it as the programming equivalent of the CCP viking-entity stripping naked, greasing itself up with seal fat, holding its knife between its teeth and wedging itself down through a wee fissure in the rocks so they can drop down onto the back of a primaeval cave-bear that has been terrorizing the village. Or something like that. Things could get messy.
Secondly, there is a valid concern that if this is done it would completely mess with the bookmark system in EVE. This is true, but i say tough cookies. The moral of the story is don't pick a fight with Issac Newton re celestial mechanics. Sooner or later, you'll loose. Time to bow your knee to the master, CCP. |
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