DUST Search - FW Economic Model Concerns -CCP Nothin-

D Roc43 wrote:

Free Beers wrote:

slap26 wrote:

Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract?

How does that make any sense?

I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping

Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone.

think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do. Roll

I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to.

thus our differeing philosophy

I believe more mercs would play for all sides and be "true" immortal mercenaries playing for the highest bidder if they offered some sort of faction specific rewards, be it through LP or added monetary incentives. I think, setting monetary aspect on a back burner, they need to first fully sync our FW system with Eve's by allowing eve corporations to host contracts on particular planets then picking which corp they want to go take the contract. This will remove the shotgun approach to FW that our current system takes and will allow corps to strategically pick which planet to take as well as the corp they want to hire to go take it. Hopefully if they just take baby steps fixing this, one step at a time, we will see a fully functional, worthwhile FW system.

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Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1029	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:01:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Nothin GÇô I admit I have no idea what changes are coming but I have real concerns about the FW economics model as it exists now. I donGÇÖt envy your tasks here. While the mechanics should be there in the next build I donGÇÖt see the isk or the motivation in it. IGÇÖll explain, but I am only focused on NPC and direct isk (and value of LP) to dust mercs and isk value to FW corps. The indirect benefits such as PI bonuses and LP for FW pilots are irrelevant since they are individual and do not benefit the actual corps controlling a district or planet. -I understand that corp battles were intended to be isk sinks for eve pilots. I am having a hard time seeing how that is going to actually be possible though. My thoughts: 1) Using the gear/vehicle loses from the tourney teams I could easily forecast each side losing over 100mill isk in gear per match when we hit 24v24. 2) I know the npc isk rewards at end of the of the corp battle helps cover some cost of the battle but not a significant amount. 3) From the merc stand point their payment is 3 fold. NPC rewards, LP, and their cut from the corp contract. So 2 of these are isk in from npc sources and 1 from the FW militia corp 4) There is LP coming for individuals (and corps?) that participates in corp battles for FW but it would have to be worth a lot of isk to matter. If the value of LP and faction gear is high then the majority of the cost for battles will be covered by npc rewards and not FW militia corps. So more isk into the system in dust via corp battles 5) To put the 100 mill isk gear cost in perspective IGÇÖll use the most valuable item in EvE a tech moon. Right now it is worth about 11 bill isk a month to its owners. If ONE FW planet was worth 11 bill a month here is the break down -11 bill/14 districts = ~785 mill isk a month per district (wow lots of isk right?) -That means the owners can pay to have the district defended 7 times and still make a small amount of profit for their troubles. 6) In reality CCP wouldnGÇÖt make a FW planet worth a tech moon. So let me try a more reasonable number of say a planet is worth 2 bill a month to the FW Militia corp. -2 bill/14 districts = ~142 mill isk a month per district (so enough to pay a merc corp to defend the planet once and make a profit) It has to be more profitable to hold a district then it would be to take it and I donGÇÖt see that. Here is why Beers guide to abuse FW mechanics vol 1 Minmatar FW Corp Scrub1 holds district 4 on a planet. An Amarr FW corp pays Zion TCD to attack district. Zion TCD fails to take it but the defense of the district cost 100 mill isk. Next day a different Amarr FW corp is paid to attack the district. Win or lose for Scrub1 corp then have now lost isk on the district that month. Say Scrub1 corp still hold district. Day 3 and a different Amarr FW corp pays PFBHz to take the district and are successful. Day 4 Scrub2 and different Minmatar corp pays PFBHz to take district 4 for them. Every one of the FW corps get abused and lose isk on the deal. Merc corps profit slightly but why would FW corps want to be bothered with it To be continuedGÇª
Soght Toi Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 14	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:05:00 - [2] - Quote Dude, I honestly do not care. I shat my pants when I read that FW Economics is coming in the next build.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1029	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:09:00 - [3] - Quote Soght Toi wrote: Dude, I honestly do not care. I shat my pants when I read that FW Economics is coming in the next build. Please go back to eating crayons then. If you actually read what I wrote and understand my concerns you would see that there is no economic motivation under current model for FW militia corps to actually want to pay mercs to take or defend districts. TL:DR No merc contracts
calisk galern KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 9	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:11:00 - [4] - Quote your math hinges that you hire a ground force that loses 100mil per match no matter the opponent. not exactly reliable when some will hire some of the strongest corps available that would probably lose less and actually work as a deterrent for attacking the planet.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 893	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:19:00 - [5] - Quote Soght Toi wrote: Dude, I honestly do not care. I shat my pants when I read that FW Economics is coming in the next build. You should care. If the economic incentive isn't addressed properly there won't be FW contracts from Eve to drive Dusters to fight. Without the proper economic drivers in place Dust could very well die in the crib. No business arrangement can hope to continue to exist if the parties involved end up operating at a loss. The interaction between Dust and Eve MUST be mutually beneficial to both games. My hope is that the changes that CCP are working on take this into account and Beers is worrying over nothing, but hoping for the best does no good if we don't get the results that are needed to ensure Dust's growth and success.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1029	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:19:00 - [6] - Quote calisk galern wrote: your math hinges that you hire a ground force that loses 100mil per match no matter the opponent. not exactly reliable when some will hire some of the strongest corps available that would probably lose less and actually work as a deterrent for attacking the planet. I was being very simplistic in my discussion. In reality better corps will get higher fees and will be more profitable playing against average opponents. My concern wasn't towards merc corp but the FW corp footing the actual bill. If you are a FW corp and having to put out isk to defend a district? Would you just want to pay 40 mill to bad corp a hope they protect you or pay 100 mill and know you will keep your district. There are a lot of average corps at best in dust only a hand full of very good ones that can win consistantly
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 460	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:32:00 - [7] - Quote Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract? How does that make any sense? I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 893	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:37:00 - [8] - Quote slap26 wrote: I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping + Infinity The system should work to where if corps decide they never want to set foot in a pub match they should be able to do so and remain economically viable. This is key to making sure that Vets and New players are segregated in a thoughtful way to minimize pub stomping (it'll happen to some extent no matter what).
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1029	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:43:00 - [9] - Quote slap26 wrote: Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract? How does that make any sense? I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone. think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do. I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to. thus our differeing philosophy
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 460	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:51:00 - [10] - Quote Free Beers wrote: slap26 wrote: Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract? How does that make any sense? I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone. think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do. I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to. thus our differeing philosophy I just don't want to fight for the Caldari Corporate Dogs, or those deep south Amarr Slavers

Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1029	Posted - 2013.02.25 19:57:00 - [11] - Quote slap26 wrote: Free Beers wrote: slap26 wrote: Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract? How does that make any sense? I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone. think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do. I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to. thus our differeing philosophy I just don't want to fight for the Caldari Corporate Dogs, or those deep south Amarr Slavers Role playing aspect aside slap. By picking a side you reduce what you get paid because you don't have the option to work for a differen't faction. If gallente controls all the planets there wont be contracts or very few. Lastly, you will have to defend planets when its required not when you want too. So if caldari likes to attack gallente during day or late at night are you going to always be on? Sorry but being a highly skill merc and corp I don't get why you would want to be dictated what your paid and when you fight.
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 460	Posted - 2013.02.25 20:28:00 - [12] - Quote Free Beers wrote: slap26 wrote: Free Beers wrote: slap26 wrote: Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract? How does that make any sense? I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone. think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do. I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to. thus our differeing philosophy I just don't want to fight for the Caldari Corporate Dogs, or those deep south Amarr Slavers Role playing aspect aside slap. By picking a side you reduce what you get paid because you don't have the option to work for a differen't faction. If gallente controls all the planets there wont be contracts or very few. Lastly, you will have to defend planets when its required not when you want too. So if caldari likes to attack gallente during day or late at night are you going to always be on? Sorry but being a highly skill merc and corp I don't get why you would want to be dictated what your paid and when you fight. Role playing aside, I completely agree. They need to allow orbital strikes without being tied to a Faction. The main non roleplaying reason why we like to fight for Gallente is that we know we will have support in space. Be it a lone guy to blap people on the planet, or an entire fleet to make sure our guy stays alive.
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 282	Posted - 2013.02.25 20:29:00 - [13] - Quote Soght Toi wrote: Dude, I honestly do not care. I shat my pants when I read that FW Economics is coming in the next build. Did I miss something? Post a link if possible. EDIT: Nevermind found it.
D Roc43 L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 4	Posted - 2013.02.25 21:04:00 - [14] - Quote Free Beers wrote: slap26 wrote: Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract? How does that make any sense? I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone. think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do. I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to. thus our differeing philosophy I believe more mercs would play for all sides and be "true" immortal mercenaries playing for the highest bidder if they offered some sort of faction specific rewards, be it through LP or added monetary incentives. I think, setting monetary aspect on a back burner, they need to first fully sync our FW system with Eve's by allowing eve corporations to host contracts on particular planets then picking which corp they want to go take the contract. This will remove the shotgun approach to FW that our current system takes and will allow corps to strategically pick which planet to take as well as the corp they want to hire to go take it. Hopefully if they just take baby steps fixing this, one step at a time, we will see a fully functional, worthwhile FW system.
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 282	Posted - 2013.02.25 21:09:00 - [15] - Quote I don't see why Capsuleers can't just set up merc contracts to attack or defend districts, they put up the money, that way no new money is entering into the system, its just flowing from eve to Dust. And they could put a hard cap for the maximum amount "imposed by concord".
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 908	Posted - 2013.02.25 21:38:00 - [16] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: I don't see why Capsuleers can't just set up merc contracts to attack or defend districts, they put up the money, that way no new money is entering into the system, its just flowing from eve to Dust. And they could put a hard cap for the maximum amount "imposed by concord". The thing is there has to be an ISK answer to the "why" of the Capsuleer putting up the contract. An Eve pilot isn't going to sink money into Dust corps fighting over districts out of the goodness of his heart.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1044	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:08:00 - [17] - Quote D Roc43 wrote: Free Beers wrote: slap26 wrote: Also say your corp is active in FW eve side, they guys eve side can only fight for that faction, but the guys dust side can take any contract? How does that make any sense? I just hope FW gets implemented in a way that we can just fight those battles over pubstomping Mercs are never going to be tied to a 1 faction. I do think a corp and mercs should have faction standing but they should never be prohibited from working for anyone. think back before when Gallente took all the planets. If ROFL is tied to Gallente and no one is fighting for caldari then you wont have to do. I guess I just dont get why mercs would want to pledge for 1 side. In reality it means you isk will be lower since you can only work for 1 faction and that you will have to fight to defend planets when its needed instead of when you want to. thus our differeing philosophy I believe more mercs would play for all sides and be "true" immortal mercenaries playing for the highest bidder if they offered some sort of faction specific rewards, be it through LP or added monetary incentives. I think, setting monetary aspect on a back burner, they need to first fully sync our FW system with Eve's by allowing eve corporations to host contracts on particular planets then picking which corp they want to go take the contract. This will remove the shotgun approach to FW that our current system takes and will allow corps to strategically pick which planet to take as well as the corp they want to hire to go take it. Hopefully if they just take baby steps fixing this, one step at a time, we will see a fully functional, worthwhile FW system. Mechanics is not my concern ccp is fully aware of what they need to do. What we have now is a "tech demo" (to steal hans line). The issue is that ccp has stated time and time again that corp battles are isk sinks to them. Problem is that is they are isk sinks for dust mercs and eve pilots they where is the motivation to play? Trust me I play pubs to get sp and thats it. why would I pub stomp to earn isk to just corp battle. I mean thats basically the corp battle system we have now that everyone hates.
Dr Debo Galaxy GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 201	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:15:00 - [18] - Quote Isn't roullette a money sink, but there is the incentive to play that you could get the big pay out? I saw the term of isk sink as you can dump money into it but you only have a chance for the pay out. Like gambaling.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1044	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:23:00 - [19] - Quote Dr Debo Galaxy wrote: Isn't roullette a money sink, but there is the incentive to play that you could get the big pay out? I saw the term of isk sink as you can dump money into it but you only have a chance for the pay out. Like gambaling. Isk sink in ccp terms is isk out of the eve/dust universe. In corp battles its dust merc burning thru gear and vehicles. Yes there is some npc money, lp, and fw isk coming in but the net is intended to decrease isk in new eden between the 2.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:40:00 - [20] - Quote So I think longer term this is an issue. However I think you are mixing some issues in. 1 - I would lean towards thinking the Dust "sov" that we are getting in the short term isn't in fact in the FW systems but instead other parts of lowsec. 2 - The payouts will be in Dust ISK not Eve ISK

Talruum Tezztarozza Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 74	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:43:00 - [21] - Quote Yea I can also see the trouble here. If dust battle is suppose to be EVE isk sink then Capsuleers won't do it because it won't benefit them. If there is some benefit in hiring dust mercs then Dust isn't EVE isk sink but it will inflat EVE economic even more. CCP concept of Dust is simply contradict itself
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1044	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:46:00 - [22] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: So I think longer term this is an issue. However I think you are mixing some issues in. 1 - I would lean towards thinking the Dust "sov" that we are getting in the short term isn't in fact in the FW systems but instead other parts of lowsec. 2 - The payouts will be in Dust ISK not Eve ISK 1-Telc my concern is isk for the eve side FW corps. It has to be worth it to the corp to employ mercs. I know you and I and many many others are tired of pubs and want to do corp battles and take other peoples stuff. th I tried to stay general because it gets real cloudly on how/if dust based or non FW corps can actually own districts. Just a lot of unknow questions and concerns. I have no idea how nonFW lowsec will work or what value will be had. 2-isk will be generated eve side to the owners of districts and we will be paid by them (isk sinks) to take or defend said districts.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1044	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:48:00 - [23] - Quote Talruum Tezztarozza wrote: Yea I can also see the trouble here. If dust battle is suppose to be EVE isk sink then Capsuleers won't do it because it won't benefit them. If there is some benefit in hiring dust mercs then Dust isn't EVE isk sink but it will inflat EVE economic even more. CCP concept of Dust is simply contradict itself FINALLY!!!!! You are now my forum friend if you like it or not
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1027	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:49:00 - [24] - Quote If capsuleers don't care, that's half the game gone right there. And we all know that gameplay alone will never hold it up as it is right now.
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1027	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:50:00 - [25] - Quote Capsuleers should get something special for the FW battles. Mercs can be bought over with officer gear for example.
Disturbingly Bored Universal Allies Inc. 93	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:53:00 - [26] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: Did I miss something? Post a link if possible. EDIT: Nevermind found it. Do share please. This is all intriguing and confusing at the same time.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:53:00 - [27] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: So I think longer term this is an issue. However I think you are mixing some issues in. 1 - I would lean towards thinking the Dust "sov" that we are getting in the short term isn't in fact in the FW systems but instead other parts of lowsec. 2 - The payouts will be in Dust ISK not Eve ISK 1-Telc my concern is isk for the eve side FW corps. It has to be worth it to the corp to employ mercs. I know you and I and many many others are tired of pubs and want to do corp battles and take other peoples stuff. th I tried to stay general because it gets real cloudly on how/if dust based or non FW corps can actually own districts. Just a lot of unknow questions and concerns. I have no idea how nonFW lowsec will work or what value will be had. 2-isk will be generated eve side to the owners of districts and we will be paid by them (isk sinks) to take or defend said districts. So to me the correct question is - Is getting a 25% bonus to the capture status of a FW system worth giving dust mercs eve side ISK to do the capture work? I don't know how worth it this really is.
Morathi III Rebelles A Quebec 57	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:58:00 - [28] - Quote Not a bad idea free beers but beta i guess is here to make new emerging corp and solidify foundation of other. Yes you have right corp battle system is terrible right now so why dont give 2xSP and 2x isk 3xsalvage more than pub in the next build, other corp will be more interested and the challenge and the diversification for corp will be better, you have absolutly right with the district system but i maintain my opinion, its too close , i want ccp talk about district come soon in the next build so that fix every dust player what is the kind of game ccp want to bring
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1044	Posted - 2013.02.25 22:59:00 - [29] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: Free Beers wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: So I think longer term this is an issue. However I think you are mixing some issues in. 1 - I would lean towards thinking the Dust "sov" that we are getting in the short term isn't in fact in the FW systems but instead other parts of lowsec. 2 - The payouts will be in Dust ISK not Eve ISK 1-Telc my concern is isk for the eve side FW corps. It has to be worth it to the corp to employ mercs. I know you and I and many many others are tired of pubs and want to do corp battles and take other peoples stuff. th I tried to stay general because it gets real cloudly on how/if dust based or non FW corps can actually own districts. Just a lot of unknow questions and concerns. I have no idea how nonFW lowsec will work or what value will be had. 2-isk will be generated eve side to the owners of districts and we will be paid by them (isk sinks) to take or defend said districts. So to me the correct question is - Is getting a 25% bonus to the capture status of a FW system worth giving dust mercs eve side ISK to do the capture work? I don't know how worth it this really is. So that is indirect benefits really telc. Indirect benefits such as PI bonus or higher LP conversion is for individuals not acutal corps in the militia. There needs to be direct benefits to the corp that owns or wants to own the district/planets for mercs to be employable on a consistant basis. again so many unknows to work with but the fundamental philosophy of beind and isk sink to eve seems counter productive and broken now
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1044	Posted - 2013.02.25 23:03:00 - [30] - Quote Morathi III wrote: Not a bad idea free beers but beta i guess is here to make new emerging corp and solidify foundation of other. Yes you have right corp battle system is terrible right now so why dont give 2xSP and 2x isk 3xsalvage more than pub in the next build, other corp will be more interested and the challenge and the diversification for corp will be better, you have absolutly right with the district system but i maintain my opinion, its too close , i want ccp talk about district come soon in the next build so that fix every dust player what is the kind of game ccp want to bring Morathi I agree with the added bonus to dust mercs to play in the corp battles. That is a way to entice and reward with out more isk going to into eve. It just can't be all npc dust side rewards. There needs to be a balance and relationship between pilots/mercs I know ccp is focused hard to deliver the best mechanics they can. However, if the econmic part isn't there worked out a head of time we could have the best faction warfare system possible and nobody will care.



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