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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 69 post(s) |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1157
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Posted - 2013.02.26 16:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Telcontar Dunedain wrote:This suddenly announced lowsec SOV for Dust mercs seems like CCP deciding that FW was too broken for us to even participate in.
ie with the broken state of it Eve side, there isn't enough passion to make Eve FW corps pay us to help them win.
Big problem for everyone.
Or it could be we have different ideas for FW battles. If FW battles and those for control of SOV were identical in all aspects it would be a bit redundant. We want them both to offer something different and to be different than the instant battles. More on this soon.
So you are kinda giving confirmation that FW battles and player owned districts in low-sec are two very different things right ? I wasnt there when the thread started but i had a few thoughts on how it could end up working based on the CSM minutes and the recent interviews and other podcasts.
FW fights : Opened to both corps and blueberries according to last CAST 514 with Null and Praetorian. This obviously implies a change in how the whole system works as randoms can't possibly pay 10 Mil to accept a contract. Or a corp that decides to pay a 10 Mil collateral to try and get a specific district will probably not like the idea of seeing blueberries get in the fight on their side (i know i wouldnt like it.)
Also, having randoms being part of the FW fights means the Player Owned Districts (POD from now on) can't be tied to FW as i, and many other people i talked with, suspect.
So that leaves us with all the economics and mechanics question marks.
=> The way i see it : EVE side already has incentives to use mercs to fight in FW as it can help attacking\defending systems faster. Then, the profit comes from usual FW revenue. The main question is how to push players in diving into those fights as EVE corps wont be able to add any money to the mix to avoid massive flows of ISK being transfered from EVE to Dust that way.
So yeah, that pretty much leaves NPC ISK being added to the mix and with more interesting payouts that usual pub games. In the end, i'm picturing FW as an evolved pub game.
Eve dude sets contracts for districts for free (or with a fixed broker fee). Those appears in mercenary tabs and then it's randoms and or teams diving in and fighting for more money than a classic pub game. Then district goes into some kind of reinforced state to avoid constant switching from side to side.
POD fights: Like many people said. Would happen in other low-sec systems. Probably not all of those available to avoid corps owning too quickly a vast territory and to make sure that fights happens and actually have a meaning. The scale of how many PO planets are available will be critical on that matter as there aint enough corps with real capabilities to own all of it and maintain enough frictions so that fights happen.
Then comes a bunch of questions : - Revenue : probably a "get X amount of ISK in X time" for every district. "Get bonus Isk for owning the entire planet" etc... - Attacking\defending Mechanics : The main question there is regarding the first attack on a possible POD. Will it be "i saw it first, i got it" ? Will it require two corps to challenge each other so the POD can be owned the first time ?
Then, i guess it's pretty simple : - attack district - reinforced timer then battle opens - fight fight fight (or not if there aint no ennemies) - district (doesnt) switch - Goes into a longer reinforced timer so cannot be attacked again for a X amount of time.
The only part that should involve EVE on those POD fights in the first place are OB. Perhaps some PI bonuses regarding taxes or extraction rates for pilots of the alliance\corp but not much more. Then, when adding orbital artillery and other stuff in a later expansion, the interest for pilots that dont PI will rise. Pretty much like the vision of the 0.0 discussed in cast 514 where dusters are seen as a tool of war just like any other ship rather than another component of system SOV.
So yeah, i freakin can't wait to see that devblog !! Hurry up dudes, we're waiting !! |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1158
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 17:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:
... O_O
I may have talked to much... Back to work for me.
Dont worry you merely just confirm a few ideas. I ve been thinking of this for a long time now. ^^ And come on. Talking is good for the soul ;)
Or at least, just tell me if i m seeing all this the right way or if some stuff are very far from what you guyd are planning. Nullarbor woild be totally ok with you doing that i promess :D |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1159
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 18:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
What strikes me is that you guys are stuck on the question of EVE corp hiring dust corps through an ISK wage. But, it has been made clear that the flow of ISK going from EVE to Dust will remain blocked until they know the two side can be balanced economy wise.
So, talking about EVE corps hiring Dust corps for 20M or 75M is in my opinion useless at this time. As then, what would prevent an EVE corp to set a 10 Billions wage for a bogus district and sync with a Dust corp so it plays both sides and take that massive amount of money without trouble. Dont be delusional, if EVE corp can set contract and the reward that goes with it, it will be exploited and the Dust economy will be flooded with ISK. At least for big corps with actual support.
Thus why i think the next version of FW wont be even close to that model. Especially since we know randoms will become a part of it.
If you listen to the last CAST 514 once more, you'll hear that CCP plans to add a function so that EVE pilots engaged in FW can pinpoint the location they'd rather see mercs fighting for. If there were an actual contracting system planned, i dont think they would have said something like that.
Thus why i was saying earlier (and please do check my post, i'd like to have some feedback on how i see it) that FW rewards will still be mainly NPC ISK. Collateral is also something i dont see last much longer with the blueberries getting in. Or you'd suddenly pay the collateral as an individual and rewards would be paid individually as well.
Another question mark related to blueberries is about deploying a full corp in a FW team. How would that work ? Maybe by syncing squads on the same battle ? My guess is full corp fights will shift to planetary conquest.
Please go back to my previous post. Page 3 if i remember correctly. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1159
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 18:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Free Beers wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Free Beers wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote: I get Beers' point about the cost of a serious battle, but I suspect most district battles will be happy fun fun time with Zion vs. ScIdama or some other no name carebear corp.
Even if both corps are paid 25 mill for a 24v24 match the match is still bad when you add in vehicle/gear costs. Just using the planet being worth 2 bill a month makes district worth about 175 mill a month in isk. At that rate if the owner is attacked and forced to defend 7 times in a month there goes all the value of the district. its not really about which corp its about any corp Well, again, I think your point as regards highly contested districts is valid- some districts will just not be worth fighting over. On the other hand, I think MOST districts (after perhaps an initial flurry of activity) will be relatively stable, just like star systems in nullsec. So, while a capsuleer might have to drop 175M ISK to defend District 4 on Intaki V, most will rarely have to do so. Indeed, I talked with some capsuleer relatives (RP) and they said that they'd probably use the lowest bidder they could find to do jobs. That suggests to me that if Corp A is expending 25M ISK in a battle and Corp B is expending 10M ISK, then Corp B is likely to win in the end because they can just keep pummeling Corp A until they go broke. In my mind, this is how it's supposed to work. Corp battles and/or Merc Contracts should be about expending as little ISK as possible to do the job. You bring up something that has been really hard for us to figure out. There are so many factors that go into it and finding other examples to base ideas off is really hard because almost no one has done this before. That something is how much will districts change hands once corporations can own them? I hope you are using a persistant control model and not a "attack it, win it, own it" model. To be specific ill use my idea example A district has a loyalty rating towards a corp from 0 to 100. You have to have a 60 to actually control it and make changes to it. The higher the number the more its worth. corp A owns district and is attacked middle of night by corp B for UKland. They win by default since no one is on to defend. There is an 8 hour cooling off period after its been taken where the loyalty number doesn't change. After the 8 hours is up the current holders get a .5 increase per hour. All other corps loyalty will go down .5 per hour. So it takes days of control to flip the district over. I would say make a corp only able to attack once per day but with the current mechanics of mercs in corp battles you could easily circumvent that by running multiple shell corps. Trust me if there is a way to freif I have planned for it
Couldnt a system like that be exploited ? I mean : Create a bogus corp, attack your district and thus "lock it". Or fight the bogus fight and get a bonus to your district "loyalty" as you put it.
that question of the defense\attack mechanics for Player Owned District and planets is probably the thing that occupies my mind the most since i first started to study dust 2 years back. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1159
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 08:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Talruum Tezztarozza wrote:To comment to the Topic itself: How the FW will work
I understand that what we will get in next patch is Faction Warfare and not Player sovereign control yet, correct ? Although My EVE experience may be limited. In my understanding FW is actually a PvP between NPC corp ? (sound confuse, isn't it? :p) 4 NPC factions just hire players to fight for them right ? If this is the case, I doubt FW in the next patch will be that different than our current pub match.
It'll still be an NPC issued contact which take place in some planets/districts. When we won that NPC employer take control of it and move on. I don't think there is anything to do with player issued contact/ player controlled district yet. This will basicly be a pub match with more reward and (hopefully) more variety of maps to separate veteran player from newberries from the old pub match. don't get me wrong, this is great enough for now. I still keen to see how full players brawl in null sec will work out. That is where the real problem lies
Yeah, because player owned districts wont ever be tied to FW. They will be about different systems in low sec. And i agree that FW will probably be more alike pub games in its next version. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1160
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 15:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:D Roc43 wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:I'm also seeing possible scenarios where teams may post contracts for cheap to see if weak teams will take the bait to attack their own districts in hope that they make money on the salvage. There are going to be holes in any system that is put into effect, the goal is to make it the best system for the majority and just take the others with a grain of salt because no matter how much they change the system it will never be perfect. Yay sandbox!
exactly. And that's why all those talks about million here, million there make no sense to me. If the planetary conquest in Dust achieves to end up like EVE's 0.0 you 'll be able to say you succeed. As as flawed it may be, it's still a freakin damn good system for a single shard persistent universe with player oriented conquest !!
So devs, dont break you head. Go with something simple, dont add too many control system. And build from there. As you said before, what you should focus on is having something as tweakable as possible, and with as many layers as possible. Beyond that, it's all experimentations. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1160
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 15:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kazeno Rannaa wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Soght Toi wrote:Dude, I honestly do not care. I shat my pants when I read that FW Economics is coming in the next build. You should care. If the economic incentive isn't addressed properly there won't be FW contracts from Eve to drive Dusters to fight. Without the proper economic drivers in place Dust could very well die in the crib. No business arrangement can hope to continue to exist if the parties involved end up operating at a loss. The interaction between Dust and Eve MUST be mutually beneficial to both games. My hope is that the changes that CCP are working on take this into account and Beers is worrying over nothing, but hoping for the best does no good if we don't get the results that are needed to ensure Dust's growth and success. OK, so what you are HOPING for is a more perfect model of WHAT capitalism is, yet in review of the ACTUAL operations of capitalism it is CONSTANTLY operating at a LOSS. Even though this is the case, capitalism STILL PERSISTS. I find your logic in this case, especially in the fact that you are talking about warfare, which even in the context of human history HAS ALWAYS OCCURRED at a loss. War has only been profitable to a small number of people and the margin of profit in it is relative to that of a descent restaurant, which is to say running at a profit of 5-10% out of the kitchen at a cost of 20-35% total cost to the establishment for materials and labor, while the front of the house may net a 20-25% profit from the remaining 50-70% of total cost of operation. The real matter is, like other people have stated, you are basing this off of incomplete mathematical models that are COMPLETELY based on ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTIONS on what it will TYPICALLY cost a corp to provide defense or seizure services on provided contracts in Faction warfare. Kain and Beers; both of you ASSUME to much, and apparently you have forgotten what assumptions do: they make and ass out of you and them. The purpose of making this kind of interaction to run at such a potentially low margin of profit on both parts is to perpetuate the mining, wormhole exploration, trading, industrial production, and etc. that currently has grown stagnant in EVE. Once again the Imperfects have proven their name all to well by their attempt to present an INCOMPLETE picture or what is possible through their narrow vision and INCOMPLETE understanding of CCP's intentions. This is supposed to be a Hamster wheel, nothing more. If you don't like it, get OFF.
A bit harsh, but dude has a point. Too much speculation kills speculation. Especially when it doesnt even take into account stuff we already know :
1) Money wont flow between EVE and Dust for a while. So forget about EVE corps paying Dust corps directly through contracts. 2) Randoms added to FW mix : no contract anymore. 3) Planet sov : Wont use contract either. (dont ask me from where i know that) |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1160
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 15:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Beers, where do you see anything related to a SI-IMP grudge ? oO If the guy disagrees, like i do, and he's SI doesnt mean its because you're an IMP.
I get the tone is a bit rough, but what you're saying is just as embarrassing for you. If you cant handle someone disagreeing (which i know you can) then stop posting as well. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 09:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
=> I very much like the idea of attack capabilities being limited to the number of MCC a corp owns. Would avoid brainless spam of district attacks.
=> I very much like the idea of a corp attacking a district taking ownership of it over time if the defender never makes a move. And looting ISK from the wealth it generates. Mechanics of losing\not losing MCC though shouldnt be that strict. A corp should always have the opportunity to back out its MCC, just fleeing the field. (No ISK at all if fleeing)
=> I very much like the idea of standings for defensive contracts. Pretty much like devs already mentionned a long while back. Give standing requirement to districts so only specific folks can defend it when you decide to actually fight back the intruders.
=> Wardec, meh il like that less. Merc corps shouldnt need to declare war. THey're mercs, they fight. period.
Overall, those ideas are a good way to go i believe.
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