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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11477	Posted - 2014.11.17 08:27:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, When we added the additional Vehicle Awareness Circle in 1.9, a new code logic was implemented that allowed different passive scan settings. After posting the EWAR ideas thread, the community proposed using these to mimic dynamic precision falloff. I had asked for the same thing in the past, and was told it was too difficult and number intensive to do. Well, the good news is, that we have managed to do exactly this in code. I have been pretty coy about it until we properly QA'd it, but today was a success of demonstrating dropsuits of various roles, and module combinations, moving in and out of these passive ranges, demonstrating fairly dynamic behavior. The system is fairly straightforward. We define the "absolute value" of each dropsuit's Passive Scan with Precision, Profile and Range. (We have this already defined) We define one smaller circle and another larger circle using a Range modifier. We then define the Precision within these two new circles, using a Precision modifier. Done. See this simplified picture: We retain the current meta in the middle circle where everything is as it was. At other ranges, things are quite different. In theory, we have completely moved out of the GÇ£scanned versus not scannedGÇ¥ meta and into a much changed EWAR environment, where everyone and anyone can utilize any of the EWAR modules to some extent, further reinforcing the GÇ£waves of opportunityGÇ¥ game design principle. A Sentinel trading a few lows for a few meters of very strong Precision, an Assault using a Dampener or two to get into through long and even medium range, etc. You get the picture. Now for the numbers. We are in uncharted territory, if you will, the combinations of dropsuits and modules, who scans whom, how and when. I asked our resident EWAR expert, Haerr to setup a dynamic spreadsheet where the final numbers can be browsed, with the exact number of complex modules needed to evade scans at different scan radii. We donGÇÖt have those numbers nailed down yet, but we have the framework to discuss them here. In this spreadsheet we have some preliminary numbers to play with. Those can and will be changed. There may be other changes that are deemed necessary, such as Scout Skills (Amarr, Caldari, Gallente), Dropsuit Skills (all 3) or even Modules (looking at you mr. Amplifier). This is all, we believe, for the greater good of DUST 514. The CPM has called for it, the Community has called for it and CCP has wanted it for a long time. LetGÇÖs discuss calmly and have a bit of fun with this. ItGÇÖs not every day a big change like this can shake up the meta. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1630	Posted - 2014.11.17 08:59:00 - [2] - Quote Honestly, I don't really mind this idea, but the ewar system is still largely borked because of reasons: CeeJ Mantis wrote: I came up with an idea. One of the problems with scouts is that their ewar is so good, and it is always on. I made a post about how I disliked the idea of cloak fields reducing scan range as it cancels out your ewar skills and mods to have it active. THis means you're less likely to use them, and more likely to brick out instead of use things they get bonuses to. What if instead things went like this: 1. Take scout's base ewar range to 10m, and increase their profile to 40db. 2. Add a multiplier to scanning range while cloaked, and add a minimum cloak duration (maybe 3 seconds). 3. (optional) Increase cloak dampening by 5% per tier (or add +1% cloak field dampening per level of the cloak field skill) This gives scouts 2 modes. Combat ready with relatively poor ewar, and defenseless, high ewar mode. You can cloak up to gather information, but to engage an enemy you loose ewar effectiveness. A minimum cloak duration prevents quick activation so you can't just get quick pulses of intel, and it encourages use of better cloak fields for scouting. You can possibly scale ewar range bonus to equipment tier, or add different types of cloaks with different modifiers to duration, range, dampening, cooldown etc. In short, scouts will be encouraged to use their scout cloak field bonus. They can provide intel and be stealthy (what scouts want) but only temporarily. Any scout that wants to be a stealthy brawler can try, but they won't have the massive ewar stats while doing it. Part of fixing the ewar system is making it so that suits don't have permanent high-reward high-power scans in 45-70m circles around them. Binding scanning range INCREASES (in short, knock scout scan range down to 10m, and cause cloak to buff it by 100%) to cloaking devices means that scouts either get to scan or get to fight, they don't get to do both at the same time, which is a large part of the issue with current design. They can see anything within 50m quite frequently and get to pick off stragglers for forever. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Kuruld Sengar Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 43	Posted - 2014.11.17 09:04:00 - [3] - Quote I'm really liking this idea,but I was wondering. Do the dropsuit ewar skills apply to the base value without starting the stacking penalty process, or do the dropsuit skills count as an additional penalized modifier?

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11478	Posted - 2014.11.17 09:08:00 - [4] - Quote Kuruld Sengar wrote: I'm really liking this idea,but I was wondering. Do the dropsuit ewar skills apply to the base value without starting the stacking penalty process, or do the dropsuit skills count as an additional penalized modifier? Skills only affect the base number, and stacking penalties then apply against a higher base, but do not inflict further stacking penalties. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3131	Posted - 2014.11.17 09:23:00 - [5] - Quote Why isnt there a smiley representing a nerdgasm? I will go with this one: Dev Hax for the win. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Kuruld Sengar Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 43	Posted - 2014.11.17 09:24:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Skills only affect the base number, and stacking penalties then apply against a higher base, but do not inflict further stacking penalties. Thank you Rattati. That clears things up nicely.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 661	Posted - 2014.11.17 09:56:00 - [7] - Quote so... heavies cant use ewar assaults are better off dampening logistics are better off using range amps scouts > all where's the racial logic here? buff the racial suits base stats by 5 units according to their respective ewar. all amarr suits should have better precision all gallente suits should have better profile all caldari suits should have better range
Appia Nappia 1473	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:02:00 - [8] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: We're also still dealing with residual effects of the scout suit going from 45 profile to 35 profile way back when they got their buffs. I see the first passenger on the short-bus has arrived. See that underlined, bolded, and italicized part? You're clearly making things up as you go or are completely ignorant of what the numbers were for Scout's Scan Profile pre-1.8. The old Role Bonus for Scouts was -5% per level to Scan Profile. What that did, was take that base 45 and multiply it by 0.75, which would bring the Scout's Profile, assuming level 5 in that specific dropsuit operation skill, to 33.33. That got rounded down to 33 as all EWAR values are rounded to the nearest whole number. So, in fact, the Scan Proflie from 1.7 to 1.8 received a nerf. The real change, was the addition of racial scout bonus to precision and the Gal-logi bonus to active scanner precision, because if the Scouts's had kept base 45 precision and no racial bonus existed, the abysmally bad active scanner would still have been spammed just as much as it was during 1.5-1.7. Additionally, it only took a basic dampener for a Scout to get under active scans pre-1.8. Now it takes 2 complex dampeners to get the same effect of a single module slot. And don't forget the Amarr Scout's precision bonus, that means Min and Amarr Scouts need 3 slots (either 3 complex dampeners or 2 complex dampeners and a prototype cloak) to get the same effect that a single module slot from 1.7. Cloak was a game changer, hyper-vigilant passives scans were not. The hyper vigilant scans just took away the 2x complex dampener option away from Assaults and Logistics and increased the tax on scout's to remain undetected. Basically, you're bullshitting this thread by giving out false information as a premise for any following proposals or arguments. So very tired
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2180	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:02:00 - [9] - Quote I proposed something similar here, take from it what you will. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1632	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:04:00 - [10] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: We're also still dealing with residual effects of the scout suit going from 45 profile to 35 profile way back when they got their buffs. I see the first passenger on the short-bus has arrived. See that underlined, bolded, and italicized part? You're clearly making things up as you go or are completely ignorant of what the numbers were for Scout's Scan Profile pre-1.8. The old Role Bonus for Scouts was -5% per level to Scan Profile. What that did, was take that base 45 and multiply it by 0.75, which would bring the Scout's Profile, assuming level 5 in that specific dropsuit operation skill, to 33.33. That got rounded down to 33 as all EWAR values are rounded to the nearest whole number. So, in fact, the Scan Proflie from 1.7 to 1.8 received a nerf. The real change, was the addition of racial scout bonus to precision and the Gal-logi bonus to active scanner precision, because if the Scouts's had kept base 45 precision and no racial bonus existed, the abysmally bad active scanner would still have been spammed just as much as it was during 1.5-1.7. I had actually forgotten about that bonus. However, the thing was you needed to be very invested in scouts to get that twelve point drop... (it was actually also maintained briefly with the 25% profile reduction cloaks used to give). The difference between then and now is that while old proto scouts were exceptionally hard to scan, now anyone can grab a light frame and be unable to be picked up by other non-scout suits. In fact with minimal skillpoint investment (zero if you use MLT light frames) you can dodge basic and adv scanners. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

iKILLu osborne Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 468	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:10:00 - [11] - Quote +1, this would really give medium suits a chance. It has also been brought to my attention that scouts (gal included) are no longer unscannable, that a gal logi with the proper skill lvl and equipment can see it all, if this is true tyvm. I would like a conformation before I skill into it if you don't mind rattati lp cal scout i demand it z platoon, cfw channel
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 105	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:19:00 - [12] - Quote I donGÇÖt understand why the commando have less scanning ability than a sentinel. Not if we respect the logic -½-áless tank better scanning-áprecision-+. I also have questions about EWAR, but itGÇÖs about vehicleGÇÖs active scanners. First, why isnGÇÖt it share to the whole team like the infantry active scanner ? Second, would it be possible to have the scanner precision getting better with the growing tiers (something like 40 STD - 35 ADV - 30 PRO). The aim of those suggestions is not to replace the infantry AS (thatGÇÖs why IGÇÖm giving less precision at each tier), but to be both a complement and a must to have module for transport pilot (dropship). My guess is that if you have a mobile CRU and people are spawning in it to be dropped, they must be aware of what is waiting for them. Eve 21 day Trial Dust 514 win 5M ISK for 100.000WP
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 90	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:20:00 - [13] - Quote +1 really happy to see EWAR being a true fitting option are the numbers for the ranges of the circles final (being +/- 10%)? Also, can you add more detection circles? (Like another longer ranged one with even lower precision)? Also, how do vehicles interact with it (How do infantry detect vehicles? do vehicles have a Scan Profile as well? if so, will you be adding EWAR mods to vehicles in the future?) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Regis Blackbird Dust University Ivy League 448	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:25:00 - [14] - Quote Here, take all my likes +1+1+1+1 This change is much needed.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3132	Posted - 2014.11.17 10:33:00 - [15] - Quote Now you just need to apply racial variation in precision/range/dampening across all classes of suits. Then we will have an incredibly interesting meta. Perhaps the commando suit should be a scanning platform to scan mediums and heavy suits? Perhaps the assault should be a "scout hunter"-suit? Perhaps scouts should be an "assault hunter" suit? Perhaps heavies could dampen and use burst HMG to stealthgank? Wow. So many ideas. So little time! EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Jebus McKing Tribal Ground Forces 990	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:04:00 - [16] - Quote I really like the differences in precision values and I think this has the potential to change things up quite a bit. But I have the feeling that without base scan radius changes this new system, while looking really cool in regards to the db values, would not change gameplay too much. At ranges of <10m you are almost in hand-to-hand combat range, and at these ranges you are probably dead before your better precision will help you. So my proposal would be to make the short range modifier 30% and set base scan radius to 15m for all suits. This means that we'd end up at almost 10m short range scan radius if 1x amplifier is equipped. Assault / Logi / Scout / Sentinel // @JebusMcKing
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13259	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:07:00 - [17] - Quote Me, as I read this thread Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13259	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:09:00 - [18] - Quote To Rattati Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
iKILLu osborne Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 468	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:09:00 - [19] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Me, as I read this thread lmfao you sir have made my day a good one lp cal scout i demand it z platoon, cfw channel
Appia Nappia 1473	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:12:00 - [20] - Quote TL;DR version Return base Scan Range values from Chromosome to all frames. 20/20/25 for Heavy/Medium/Light. Scanning is inherently aggressive and broad, which should cost more than dampening. Dampening is inherently defensive and singular Precision is too strong on scouts for Medium Frames to participate in EWAR so long as Passive Scans are shared (Which CCP Rattati said was not something that could be reasonably done.) Dampening Racial Bonus is too important, return it to a Role bonus or remove and re-balance around its absence. CCP Rattati wrote: Now for the numbers. We are in uncharted territory, if you will, the combinations of dropsuits and modules, who scans whom, how and when. I asked our resident EWAR expert, Haerr to setup a dynamic spreadsheet where the final numbers can be browsed, with the exact number of complex modules needed to evade scans at different scan radii. We donGÇÖt have those numbers nailed down yet, but we have the framework to discuss them here. In this spreadsheet we have some preliminary numbers to play with. Those can and will be changed. There may be other changes that are deemed necessary, such as Scout Skills (Amarr, Caldari, Gallente), Dropsuit Skills (all 3) or even Modules (looking at you mr. Amplifier). This is all, we believe, for the greater good of DUST 514. The CPM has called for it, the Community has called for it and CCP has wanted it for a long time. LetGÇÖs discuss calmly and have a bit of fun with this. ItGÇÖs not every day a big change like this can shake up the meta. I really like the concept. Back in 1.6 and 1.7 I was running a Gallente Logistics suit with passive scan modules. I liked the dynamic from back them. Things to be cautious of: Hyper-vigilant precision This could be from a Gal-Logi precision bonus and scanner spam, which now with shared team it's. . . not really a problem but it is very common. Or it can be a Scout having precision that is too strong (low value) where a Medium Frame can't compete in EWAR. Like any Scout receiving a bonus to precision or even buffing Precision enhancers to 15/20/25 If we were all running Assault suits as solo players, the only time we would see an enemy on the radar would be if they were in directed Line-of-Sight (LoS). Enter the Active Scanner. You make a momentary trade of killing power for information on enemies' locations. (ignoring the over-nerf it got to cooldown) The Active Scanner was the first step in breaking the status quo of only having LoS cause enemies to show on the Tacnet. That makes the use of an Active Scanner an Aggressive move. To protect one's state, they need to employ Profile Dampeners. While The active Scanner temporarily trades killing power for information, the Profile Dampeners trade survivability (HP, Mobility, recovery) to maintain the status quo. Enter the Precision Enhancer. This module trades in HP or DPS (Because there are 4 different things that go in high slots) for permanent aggressive action of gaining information. For every slot you give up the other guys has to give up one too. Adding teammates: Now we have teammates, squad-mates too! Now, instead of the status quo being LoS only detection and the Electronic Warfare, which was a 1v1 game of attrition, only a single person has to make any sort of sacrifice Adding a Scout: The Scout has little sacrifice to break the status quo, yet demands a huge investment to maintain the natural state of being unscanned. Regardless of Skill Bonuses, even the proposed range modifications mean its a 2:1 module cost for Medium Frames to protect themselves from passive scans when at the long range of a scout. Specific suggestions: I think the "inner circle" where precision is enhanced should just be a static range of 15m, It should have some usefulness against CQC types like the dreaded 3x damped sentinel or a shotgun user that dampened to get into range. There exists some lag with tacnet. People usually don't appear until a few seconds after they entered your range while they stay lit up for a few seconds after passing out of your max range. Considering 3 suits have a base of 10m, I really think that needs to be returned to the Chromosome value of 20m for Heavy and Mediums and 25m for Scout. It would also bring the base range up to a point where an Assault suit could make use of a range amplifier. So very tired

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13259	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:14:00 - [21] - Quote Put the Assault range at 15m base and you WILL see me use dual precision on my Gal Assault :P Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17737	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:17:00 - [22] - Quote Yesh my cal stealthed assault with the RR can be effective now and nail people without being easily as seen anymore. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Jebus McKing Tribal Ground Forces 990	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:17:00 - [23] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: +1, this would really give medium suits a chance. It has also been brought to my attention that scouts (gal included) are no longer unscannable, that a gal logi with the proper skill lvl and equipment can see it all, if this is true tyvm. I would like a conformation before I skill into it if you don't mind rattati Gal/Cal scouts need 2x complex damps + active proto cloak field (3x if no cloak) to become truely unscannable. This is how it works right now and this won't change. Assault / Logi / Scout / Sentinel // @JebusMcKing
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13259	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:21:00 - [24] - Quote As a sidenote, didn't you say that Assault Profile will be reduced to 45dB? It says 50dB base, and which is the current number, but the Logi range isn't the current range? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 173	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:29:00 - [25] - Quote As far as I am aware, I can already evade adv scans with my amarr heavy with 3 proto damps, aprox 28 scan profile I think. I also use 3 proto damps on std assault amarr suits, approx 23 scan profile. Both these ewar fits have something scouts don't. My assault has more hp for 23 profile. My amarr scout cant get 23 profile with same hp. it can only get 23 profile and by faster with higher scan range etc. My stealth assault is a tanky scout shotgun fitting. My stealth heavy is a slow flanker in pubs that is a game changer when it works. (its a pub, not pc competent yet, if it could evade scans from equipment active scanners at 70m ranges to flank from behind that would be awesome.) Please apply your idea of Dynamic range vs precision Rattati to active scanner equipment.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 173	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:30:00 - [26] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: As a sidenote, didn't you say that Assault Profile will be reduced to 45dB? It says 50dB base, and which is the current number, but the Logi range isn't the current range? With dampening skills at 5 your assault scan profile is 45. not 50.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13259	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:32:00 - [27] - Quote WeapondigitX V7 wrote: Cat Merc wrote: As a sidenote, didn't you say that Assault Profile will be reduced to 45dB? It says 50dB base, and which is the current number, but the Logi range isn't the current range? With dampening skills at 5 your assault scan profile is 45. not 50. I'm talking about base numbers. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Jebus McKing Tribal Ground Forces 990	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:34:00 - [28] - Quote WeapondigitX V7 wrote: Cat Merc wrote: As a sidenote, didn't you say that Assault Profile will be reduced to 45dB? It says 50dB base, and which is the current number, but the Logi range isn't the current range? With dampening skills at 5 your assault scan profile is 45. not 50. In that other EWAR thread the proposal was to change the base profile of Assaults to 45db. This and the base scanrange changes still need to happen IMO. Assault / Logi / Scout / Sentinel // @JebusMcKing
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 173	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:38:00 - [29] - Quote Please make scouts be unscannable if they are beyond 45m ranges with 2 complex damps. (for enemies with ewar dedicated fittings) With 3 complex damps please make scouts unscannable within 15 meters of the enemy (if enemy has Ewar dedicated fits) The nova knive scouts should be viable in PC. Make scouts need 4 complex damps to be unscannable within approx 10 meters. (when enemy is using ewar dedicated fits) All the above refers to passive scanning. Scouts sacrifice a lot using ewar dedicated fits. Be paranoid and look around a lot while in a squad and you''ll kill that sneaky scout sometimes. (if they use no hp mods and you have good aim, little lag)
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 173	Posted - 2014.11.17 12:34:00 - [30] - Quote Having assaults and heavies have a scan range of 17m as a base and scouts having a base of 23m seems like a good idea. It would make all frame be able to make use of range amps. Perhaps increase the stacking penalty of range amplifiers to 82% instead of approx 88.5%.

Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 857	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:06:00 - [31] - Quote WeapondigitX V7 wrote: Please make scouts be unscannable if they are beyond 45m ranges with 2 complex damps. (for enemies with ewar dedicated fittings) With 3 complex damps please make scouts unscannable within 15 meters of the enemy (if enemy has Ewar dedicated fits) The nova knive scouts should be viable in PC. Make scouts need 4 complex damps to be unscannable within approx 10 meters. (when enemy is using ewar dedicated fits) All the above refers to passive scanning. Scouts sacrifice a lot using ewar dedicated fits. Be paranoid and look around a lot while in a squad and you''ll kill that sneaky scout sometimes. (if they use no hp mods and you have good aim, little lag) ...Unless I am reading the spreadsheet completely wrong, with these numbers, scouts with 2 complex damps would be unscannable at all ranges, even by a logi with 4 precision enhancers. And it would even take 3 enhancers to catch a scout with only one dampener at short-medium range. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4855	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:17:00 - [32] - Quote This is interesting and will certainly help to remove the 'black and white' nature of passive scans. Good stuff. Are we not going to see adjustments to the base dropsuit passive scans then? I was looking forward to my assault being slightly less terrible at detecting people. My advice to you, playa...

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11505	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:25:00 - [33] - Quote It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Haerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 1919	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:27:00 - [34] - Quote @CCP Rattati Hi! Could you check your twitter real quick?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4860	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:33:00 - [35] - Quote It is awesome that you made this work. It is a great improvement to the foundation of how scanning works. I am sure this will be messy when released. We are bound to miss something in the planning and find something is completely OP or UP when this feature is released, but with a bit of iteration we will get it right. In the end this will be a major improvement in scanning and make DUST a better game. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 573	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:49:00 - [36] - Quote @CCP. I really appreciate hearing about your current projects and plans. I'm skeptical about the Range Amplifiers, especially STD or ADV, being used on Assault Suits. I'll try it out, but using a slot for a few extra meters will still feel like a wasted slot....they work great on Scouts though. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4855	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:51:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Okay then I see you posted that the assault scan range is going to be 10m. I think this would be better if it was made 15m. 10m is basically right in front of your face. Unless I am willing to spend valuable slots on range amplification my short range scan is 3.75m... that's 1.25m away from being knifed. Luk Manag wrote: I'm skeptical about the Range Amplifiers, especially STD or ADV, being used on Assault Suits. I'll try it out, but using a slot for a few extra meters will still feel like a wasted slot....they work great on Scouts though. My idea would also make range amplifiers more attractive to fit. Was that better? My advice to you, playa...
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13260	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:03:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' Well, I was at school when I first made my posts, and typing my thoughts on an iPad isn't very fun :P I can't write now either since I have business to attend to, so the soonest I will be able to write what I want to write is in 24~ hours. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Haerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 1920	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:07:00 - [39] - Quote Scan Table - New_EWAR All skills are level 5 in this spreadsheet. The columns that are labeled No / STD / ADV / PRO / PIR Refers to which cloak is active. Cells are labeled dempending on which, and how many, dampeners are required to hide from the scanner. B = Basic Profile Dampener E = Enhanced Profile Dampener C = Complex Profile Dampener Cells are also coloured depending on which dampeners are being used. Scan Profiles and Scan Precisions for suits are found on the "input" sheet. How to play around with the numbers. "File" -> "Make a Copy..." Type in a name and press "OK" Since the tables rely on a script for sorting and colouring you will have to start the script and allow it to run. "Tools" -> "Script Editor..." "Run" "Continue" "Accept" After you have done this the tables will automatically be updated, sorted, and coloured when you change the value in one of the cells with black background colour in the input sheet. Once you have changed a value wait for the loading bar in the top right of the window to finish before you change an other value.
Jebus McKing Tribal Ground Forces 994	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:12:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' I'm sorry that you are disappoint. I did my very best. Please, stop shouting. lies down, tries not to cry, cries a lot Assault / Logi / Scout / Sentinel // @JebusMcKing

Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4860	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:14:00 - [41] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: I'm sorry that you are disappoint. I did my very best. Please, stop shouting. lies down, tries not to cry, cries a lot /me glares at Rattati... LOOK WHAT YOU DID! You are tearing this family apart! My advice to you, playa...

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11512	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:14:00 - [42] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: It is awesome that you made this work. It is a great improvement to the foundation of how scanning works. I am sure this will be messy when released. We are bound to miss something in the planning and find something is completely OP or UP when this feature is released, but with a bit of iteration we will get it right. In the end this will be a major improvement in scanning and make DUST a better game. I agree 100%, we may not get this right in the first go, so let's prepare to be patient. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 662	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:23:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' i did
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4861	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:25:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers Also, I see the Commandos' scan precision is 60dB. I think this would be better if it were 55dB. The commando fulfills a similar role to the assault. They have a limited slot layout so fitting EWAR modules is very difficult for them. I don't believe it should be quite as good as the assaults' scan precision, but at least make it on par with senitnels'. My advice to you, playa...
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2570	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:26:00 - [45] - Quote Can the Cal scout get its precision bonus back now? Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 860	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:42:00 - [46] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' Sure, just as it can be quite frustrating to ask for changes to the scanning system that would make it less black and white and would make ewar somewhat viable for non scouts, and keep getting told "it's not possible". Instead of, say, " we are actively working on a way to make that feasible". Just saying. But, as it is now possible, here are some comments. You imply you want medium suits to have a meaningful way of using ewar. However, these numbers don't really reflect that. A logi with even 4 precision enhancers is unable to detect a scout with 2 dampeners even at close range. And 3 enhancers would be needed to overcome just one dampener at medium-close range. So, there is hardly a point in trying to use passive scans to detect scouts, so now it becomes a matter of whether sacrificing health/other utility is worth it just to detect some potential other medium frames that are using dampeners. In pre-1.8 conditions, this was useful, as medium frames, even dampened ones, were the most common on the battlefield. With the current 'balance' of scouts>heavies>everything else... it's hard to see the utility of fitting enhancers just to detect the odd medium frame, not when it has fat chance of detecting the scouts that are actually the major threat. Now, an assault with dampeners will have some utility, though I don't see the trend of self-prescribed 'slayers' choosing a scout suit over an assault suit (with exceptions, of course, always existing) really being overcome by these changes alone. I can't offer you a perfect solution, but in my opionion a place to start looking at would be increasing scout base profile. The scan ranges are another issue. With scan precision 'degrading' over range, I do think there is a case to be made for an overall increase in base ranges, at least for the medium frames. Not a major one, but something to push the short range out a little bit more. Or at least reconsider the short range to be more in the area of 35-40% of the total range... With the proposed numbers, an assault with 2 range extenders and 4 enhancers would detect a scout with 1 dampener at about 7.5m meters... well within shotgun optimal, if I'm not mistaken. There, that's my 0.02isk. I am not into spreadsheets, and I believe as I am not a member of the Barbershop, going into such detail in a matter somewhat relating to scouts would be a wasted effort anyway Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5088	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:02:00 - [47] - Quote I love this game, and I have been running complex dampeners on my logi/assault...heck even my sentinel sometimes even if it is a waste of a module when you do the math. I want this idea to work, but the current system is so complicated that not everyone is willing to do the math on these things in order to figure out if certain modules are worth it to use. SO PLEASE RATTATI Can we finally get e-war stats added to the fitting screen? Because if doing a complete overhaul of e-war isn't an option then we at least need to have a way to look at numbers and create numbers in-game rather than sitting here calculating then every time we want to discuss e-war? Don't get me wrong, I love math, but I hate providing feedback on this subject simply because of this reason. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 662	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:07:00 - [48] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' Sure, just as it can be quite frustrating to ask for changes to the scanning system that would make it less black and white and would make ewar somewhat viable for non scouts, and keep getting told "it's not possible". Instead of, say, " we are actively working on a way to make that feasible". Just saying. But, as it is now possible, here are some comments. You imply you want medium suits to have a meaningful way of using ewar. However, these numbers don't really reflect that. A logi with even 4 precision enhancers is unable to detect a scout with 2 dampeners even at close range. And 3 enhancers would be needed to overcome just one dampener at medium-close range. So, there is hardly a point in trying to use passive scans to detect scouts, so now it becomes a matter of whether sacrificing health/other utility is worth it just to detect some potential other medium frames that are using dampeners. In pre-1.8 conditions, this was useful, as medium frames, even dampened ones, were the most common on the battlefield. With the current 'balance' of scouts>heavies>everything else... it's hard to see the utility of fitting enhancers just to detect the odd medium frame, not when it has fat chance of detecting the scouts that are actually the major threat. Now, an assault with dampeners will have some utility, though I don't see the trend of self-prescribed 'slayers' choosing a scout suit over an assault suit (with exceptions, of course, always existing) really being overcome by these changes alone. I can't offer you a perfect solution, but in my opionion a place to start looking at would be increasing scout base profile. The scan ranges are another issue. With scan precision 'degrading' over range, I do think there is a case to be made for an overall increase in base ranges, at least for the medium frames. Not a major one, but something to push the short range out a little bit more. Or at least reconsider the short range to be more in the area of 35-40% of the total range... With the proposed numbers, an assault with 2 range extenders and 4 enhancers would detect a scout with 1 dampener at about 7.5m meters... well within shotgun optimal, if I'm not mistaken. There, that's my 0.02isk. I am not into spreadsheets, and I believe as I am not a member of the Barbershop, going into such detail in a matter somewhat relating to scouts would be a wasted effort anyway i think that the closer you get to someone the higher the chance of you getting picked up on their scans. the dampeners should help you get in closer to them without being picked up, but there should be a range where you get picked up no matter what. range amps should be for buffing you scan. range basic IS your scan strength. you can have all the greatest precision in the world but if your range is 10m, then your scans are useless. precision mods should be for directly countering dampened units or scouts. it would make ewar easier and more of a more functional extension of the suits capabilities, much like adding plates or extenders.
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 107	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:10:00 - [49] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: amarr = precision caldari = range galeente = dampenrs minmatar = running Corrected Eve 21 day Trial Dust 514 win 5M ISK for 100.000WP
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 860	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:10:00 - [50] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: I love this game, and I have been running complex dampeners on my logi/assault...heck even my sentinel sometimes even if it is a waste of a module when you do the math. I want this idea to work, but the current system is so complicated that not everyone is willing to do the math on these things in order to figure out if certain modules are worth it to use. SO PLEASE RATTATI Can we finally get e-war stats added to the fitting screen? Because if doing a complete overhaul of e-war isn't an option then we at least need to have a way to look at numbers and create numbers in-game rather than sitting here calculating then every time we want to discuss e-war? Don't get me wrong, I love math, but I hate providing feedback on this subject simply because of this reason. This. So very much this. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7944	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:12:00 - [51] - Quote \o/ We've been asking for this for awhile. This should mean that high precision high range scouts wont completely dominate the meta, and that assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on. The battlefield is going to get a lot more dynamic on the eWAR side, and I LIKE IT. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 860	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:25:00 - [52] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: \o/ We've been asking for this for awhile. This should mean that high precision high range scouts wont completely dominate the meta, and that assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on. The battlefield is going to get a lot more dynamic on the eWAR side, and I LIKE IT. 2 precision mods, if we go by the proposed numbers. And still not at full scan range. As in, an undampened scout can get to 11m of an assault who has 2 enhancers equipped before being detected... Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 81	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:38:00 - [53] - Quote i like the general design though based on the precision values of the various suits, i think more than 10% differentiation between levels is needed if the numbers remain at 25% and 75% and 100% for the various levels of range. like 80% 100% 125% or something because as it stands even with a range amp an assault is having a scout be at 5m before they are in the "close" circle, and with only a 10% reduction in precision that likely won't help them spot said scout with their base precision of 45 to their 31.5, as you'd get to 40.5. so then lets assume the assault is running a range enhancer AND a precision enhancer. now they can still not see the scout, but even though they have 0 e war mods. (and this is in the close circle mind you) just seems scouts still have too much a super advantage when they fit one damp, and the assault would need 3+ slots to see them ever even in their close circle of 5m at that point, 3.75 w/o the range amp (still solid SG range though) just my thoughts :) personally i think the range amp should be more usable on suits other than scouts, because as it is it is pretty sadly unerperforming unless you are running 2+ complex
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 662	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:02:00 - [54] - Quote the whole ewar system is based on being scanned or not being scanned at ALL ranges. ewar could have been done in such a way that no one can be unscannable, including scouts, but that stealth via cloaks and damps allow you to move about more freely while within someone scan radius. either to get closer to them to kill them or to bypass them entirely. the current system says put on damps on a scout suit and youll be invisbile to everyone even when stand next to them and breathing up their butt. there should be a minimum range when damps are completely ineffective. 5m would be a start. combined with the new spotty cloak delay, this would be the last line of defense against shot gun scout with cloaks
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4862	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:13:00 - [55] - Quote Evan Gotabor wrote: I donGÇÖt understand why the commando have less scanning ability than a sentinel. Not if we respect the logic -½-áless tank better scanning-áprecision-+. I also have questions about EWAR, but itGÇÖs about vehicleGÇÖs active scanners. First, why isnGÇÖt it share to the whole team like the infantry active scanner ? Second, would it be possible to have the scanner precision getting better with the growing tiers (something like 40 STD - 35 ADV - 30 PRO). The aim of those suggestions is not to replace the infantry AS (thatGÇÖs why IGÇÖm giving less precision at each tier), but to be both a complement and a must to have module for transport pilot (dropship). My guess is that if you have a mobile CRU and people are spawning in it to be dropped, they must be aware of what is waiting for them. I wonder if there is a way of sharing vehicle active Scans with Squad and non squad members who are in the vehicle? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 302	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:24:00 - [56] - Quote @ Falloff Design This is really excited stuff. +1 @ Haerr Your scan table suggests that falloff will apply to Active Scanners. Is this intended? If not, is it possible?
iWanderer PT-BR 10	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:25:00 - [57] - Quote I have 3 comments to Haers table for now: - Why do commandos have a worst profile than sentinels. Commandos are between assault and sentinels. - I see a possible problem with the medium range/precision ratio. Example: Assault. Today you have a 50db precision to maximum of 10m. In this new proposal the 50db precision is now at 7,5m? shorter. Or see it inversed, at the now 10 meters, the precision is worsened to 55db. The first cenario could be a problem especially between scouts and other suits. The second between assaults and sentinels.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 995	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:27:00 - [58] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' Are you calling me out? #shotsfired I'm posting on one of your feedback threads. There are some things that stand out to me about this suggestion as a whole: It's going to be super hard and time-consuming to balance. Under the described system you go from tracking 3 interrelated values to tracking 7. There's a lot of room over the span of the entire EWAR module base, suit bonuses, etc. to slip up and insert something that obsoletes whatever complexity is left in the rest of the system. Your "it's pretty straightforward" in the OP is charming, because it's certainly a straightforward concept to understand for people already acquainted with EWAR. I wouldn't be so sure that EWAR even without additional numbers to track is easy to explain to anyone who doesn't want to read up on it. Also, even if the CONCEPT may be straightforward, the battlefield effects are anything but straightforward. I think it's a major detriment to this system that it would induce a scenario where it's very difficult to understand why a particular person was or was not visible to you at any given point in time. There become an even bigger number of potential combinations of things which could give a particular result. That limits dynamic gear-switching as a response to current battle conditions, since you really won't ever know what kind of thing you would need to "fix" your current EWAR problem. There's no benefit to being conditionally visible for medium frames if they're still going to be pinged out by scouts most of the time. If you're concerned about being stealthy, scouts are very viable. Sacrificing slots on a medium frame is a huge penalty. Why not just go to scout, get the speed boost, and be even HARDER to spot? Even if mediums become "conditionally visible", this is a significantly less useful state than being "essentially invisible" (current scouts). Say I'm an assault player, and I fit a profile dampener under this new system. I now get a "jump" advantage on other assaults, lose some amount of utility vs scouts (since they can see me and negate my dampener), and still have a "jump" advantage on heavies. It's just not a winning proposition. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19149	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:31:00 - [59] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on. It requires 2 precision mods, from what I am reading. I don't think many assaults will sacrifice two slots so they can scan a shotgunner or knifer at ranges where they're about to have their spleen removed. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4862	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:32:00 - [60] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Now you just need to apply racial variation in precision/range/dampening across all classes of suits. Then we will have an incredibly interesting meta. Perhaps the commando suit should be a scanning platform to scan mediums and heavy suits? Perhaps the assault should be a "scout hunter"-suit? Perhaps scouts should be an "assault hunter" suit? Perhaps heavies could dampen and use burst HMG to stealthgank? Wow. So many ideas. So little time! I believe the high level meta was supposed to be: Rock = Sentinel Paper = Scouts Scissors = Assault But in the balance of things GÇ£ScissorsGÇ¥ has not been very effective at cutting paper for a while now. Recent Assault buffs have helped, but Assault donGÇÖt have any specific advantages over Scout right now, which is why you donGÇÖt see a lot of Assault in PC (based on what I have read, as I don't do PC). I think giving Assaults the tools to be Scout Hunters is what is needed. One idea is to give Assaults better Scan Precision but not the ability to share their passive scans on the Tac-Net. Of course I am not sure if this is technically possible. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4862	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:34:00 - [61] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: I really like the differences in precision values and I think this has the potential to change things up quite a bit. But I have the feeling that without base scan radius changes this new system, while looking really cool in regards to the db values, would not change gameplay too much. At ranges of <10m you are almost in hand-to-hand combat range, and at these ranges you are probably dead before your better precision will help you. So my proposal would be to make the short range modifier 30% and set base scan radius to 15m for all suits. This means that we'd end up at almost 10m short range scan radius if 1x amplifier is equipped. I definitely agree on changing base for all suits to 15m. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
iWanderer PT-BR 10	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:38:00 - [62] - Quote 15m range base for assaults could work batter against scouts. 15m is the the new scout proposed medium range
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4863	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:50:00 - [63] - Quote iWanderer wrote: 15m range base for assaults could work batter against scouts. 15m is the the new scout proposed medium range I am fine with that, actually. Scouts probably should have longer range, but Assaults definitely need more than 10m base range. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2558	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:52:00 - [64] - Quote I realize that it's not possible to have a gradual precision curve and that precision radii have to occur in hard-defined bands. I assume this is largely for performance reasons. I do wonder if it would be possible to introduce an element of randomness in the current proposal. Calls to rand() are pretty efficient and it might make things more interesting. So these values of your proposal would affect the chance of success/failure. Also some players have been advocating for buffing Sentinel's Ewar. I'm very much against this. IMO sentinels are supposed to be absolute beasts in their optimals, with huge EHP and DPS. The trade off is they're supposed to be dependent on support and slow. If we make it so scouts aren't good at killing sentinels in CQC via buffs to the heavy's precision and scan radius, then we're going to see even more heavy spam. Keep them blind in, and make them dependent on squad mates' passive/active scans for Ewar. Edit: I forgot to mention, overall I love this direction. Great work CCP Rattati! Best PvE idea ever!
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 849	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:54:00 - [65] - Quote 1. I like the basic design. It really helps breaking the binary nature of eWar. On the other hand that makes the system relatively hard to understand unless you read a wiki-article on it. In general I absolutely support the design. 2. I agree with the general layout of the three scan areas. Ranges at 25, 75 and 100% and precision modifiers at 90, 100 and 110, to be specific. That means an enhanced dampener puts you from the far scan range to the close one. This seems appropriate for a start. It is important that the radius of increased precision (short range) is comparatively small so we don't influence the Scout meta too heavily. 3. The design states that 100% scan range coincides with 110% precision. This equals a 10% precision nerf across the boardt. I support this because I like the game better with less eWar. However I'd still like to point this out so other people may voice their probably deviating - and wrong - opinion.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 181	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:18:00 - [66] - Quote I am very glad to see this idea come to fruition, good work CCP and most of all Rattati. I know you probably want to bring down scan ranges across the board and see this as an opportunity to at least dumb down everyone's current max scan range by 10%. If that's the case, I agree with the numbers you propose for ranges, but I would buff the inner most circle to 80% instead of 90% Precision. Just to give people more accuracy in their absolute immediate area. To be clear: 80% precision inner most circle (is 85% a better compromise?) 100% precision middle circle 110% precision outer most circle. +1 on prepare to be patient, take it easy guys.
JIAF-PR 113	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:22:00 - [67] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, When we added the additional Vehicle Awareness Circle in 1.9, a new code logic was implemented that allowed different passive scan settings. After posting the EWAR ideas thread, the community proposed using these to mimic dynamic precision falloff. I had asked for the same thing in the past, and was told it was too difficult and number intensive to do. Well, the good news is, that we have managed to do exactly this in code. I have been pretty coy about it until we properly QA'd it, but today was a success of demonstrating dropsuits of various roles, and module combinations, moving in and out of these passive ranges, demonstrating fairly dynamic behavior. The system is fairly straightforward. We define the "absolute value" of each dropsuit's Passive Scan with Precision, Profile and Range. (We have this already defined) We define one smaller circle and another larger circle using a Range modifier. We then define the Precision within these two new circles, using a Precision modifier. Done. See this simplified picture: [img]http://puu.sh/cUhwi/f10bd82636.png[/img] We retain the current meta in the middle circle where everything is as it was. At other ranges, things are quite different. In theory, we have completely moved out of the GÇ£scanned versus not scannedGÇ¥ meta and into a much changed EWAR environment, where everyone and anyone can utilize any of the EWAR modules to some extent, further reinforcing the GÇ£waves of opportunityGÇ¥ game design principle. A Sentinel trading a few lows for a few meters of very strong Precision, an Assault using a Dampener or two to get into through long and even medium range, etc. You get the picture. Now for the numbers. We are in uncharted territory, if you will, the combinations of dropsuits and modules, who scans whom, how and when. I asked our resident EWAR expert, Haerr to setup a dynamic spreadsheet where the final numbers can be browsed, with the exact number of complex modules needed to evade scans at different scan radii. We donGÇÖt have those numbers nailed down yet, but we have the framework to discuss them here. In this spreadsheet we have some preliminary numbers to play with. Those can and will be changed. There may be other changes that are deemed necessary, such as Scout Skills (Amarr, Caldari, Gallente), Dropsuit Skills (all 3) or even Modules (looking at you mr. Amplifier). This is all, we believe, for the greater good of DUST 514. The CPM has called for it, the Community has called for it and CCP has wanted it for a long time. LetGÇÖs discuss calmly and have a bit of fun with this. ItGÇÖs not every day a big change like this can shake up the meta. I think the image have the % of efficency inverted in the presicion scale; I would like to see the Long range presicion in 80%, the medium in 100% and the short in 120%. I would make some changes to the suits base numbers as: I would put all dropsuit base radius on 17m with exception of the Scout and the Sentinel I would put them on 20m. Assault suit base profile on 45dB Commando suit base precision and base profile on 55dB. Scout suit base profile on 40dB. For Scout balance I would put the codebreaker in the High slots to do the MinScout more competitive, because the MinScout is the only Scout without eWar bonus (radius, precision or profile); And an increase the sprint speed of MinScout a 0.09m/s I'm a MinScout, sorry if I.m trying give some power to him. Quote: Pienso que la imagen tiene los % invertidos en la escala de presicion; Me gustaría ver la precision en largo alcance en 80%, en medio 100% y en corto 120% Yo le haría algunos cambios a los números base de los trajes: Le pondría a todos los trajes su radio base en 17m con excepción de el Explorador y el Centinela que los pondría en 20m. Trajes Combate sus emisiones base en 45dB. Traje Comando su precisión base y sus emisiones base en 55dB. Traje Explorador sus emisiones base en 40dB. Para balancear los Exploradores pondría los descodificadores en los modulos de alta potencia para hacer el Explorador Minmatar mas competitivo, porque es el único Explorador sin bonificación de eWar (alcance, precision o emisiones) For Scout balance I would put the codebreaker in the High slots to do the MinScout more competitive, because the MinScout is the only Scout without eWar bonus (radius, precision or profile); and Y un aumento en la velocidad de correr del Explorador Minmatar de 0.09m/s Soy un Explorador Minmatar, disculpas si estoy tratando de darle algo de poder. "Los grandes no son grandes sino porque estamos de rodillas. Levantémonos" GÇô Pedro Albizu Campos
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 304	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:23:00 - [68] - Quote iWanderer wrote: 15m range base for assaults could work batter against scouts. 15m is the the new scout proposed medium range Scan Falloff and MedFrame EWAR Improvement are both fantastic ideas. I'd like to see both implemented, but whether one is implemented before, during or after the other will be of little long-term consequence. Hooray for both, whenever they come.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7247	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:26:00 - [69] - Quote First of all (and yes this is warranting of all caps) ****ING THANK YOU Now that that burst of emphatic glee is out of the way. I love this change, honestly. It's exactly what I had in mind as far as an 'uncertainty' factor when it comes to EWAR because it is entirely too binary. However, the numbers are far off from adding anything of the sort to that uncertainty factor when it takes dramatically more range/amplifier modules to hunt down problem scouts by comparison to how many dampeners and inherent skill bonuses they receive. I feel I have a really elegant solution though I'm not sure if it's entirely possible: Adding cross bonuses to amplifiers and range enhancers. I.E: If I have a range enhancer (dunno the numbers by heart so bear with me) which gives me 45% increased range as well as 5-10% better precision. This takes some of the edge of having to stack -so many- modules without having to go back and change too many base numbers one the suits/modules. Alternatively, without strictly speaking numbers, I do echo a lot of the sentiment other players in the community are saying in that scan ranges need to be furthered out a bit to be more useful. 15m isn't enough, anything within that radius has already seen you and is likely already shooting you. Precision needs to be looked at as well so that it's more useful as it's too difficult to try and make useful when considering range restrictions. The inevitable flaw with trying to go EWAR is that it's not going to help you if you're already dead, so there needs to be a decent balance. Essentially, we need more of the Rock Paper Scissors aspects. HP/Recovery/EWAR/Damage, in this case. You can specialize and be really good at it but be lacking in the other departments, or go for a well rounded balance. Tanking preference has a lot to do with it as well; Shield tankers will inherently be better at dampening as they can fit both HP/Recovery and Dampening; whereas Armor tankers will be better at Precision because... Well. It's the only module they can put in their high slots outside of damage modules to complement their HP/Recovery. I don't think this can be solved without cross bonuses as I stated above or individually going in and changing the suits' base EWAR capabilities at the -RACIAL- level and not just at the -CLASS- level. Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Cass Caul 1583	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:29:00 - [70] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on. It requires 2 precision mods, from what I am reading. I don't think many assaults will sacrifice two slots so they can scan a shotgunner or knifer at ranges where they're about to have their spleen removed. I used to but that was because scouts only used 1 basic module back in 1.7 so i needed 3 to scan proto scouts On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt

matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 82	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:42:00 - [71] - Quote ran some numbers via the sheet, assault range -> 15 assault profile -> 45 assault precision -> 45 logi profile -> 45 logi precision ->40 commando precision ->50 and 75% precision at 25% range, 100% precision at 75% range 125% precision at 100% range seems to work very nicely if a medium fits NO ew and a scout fits NO ew the scout pops up on close, but if the scout fits a damp he is pretty far ahead, but a medium with 2 precision mods can spot him still on close seems a decent trade off also the medium - medium play looks ok, heavies don't work as well but seems workable as well, i like the curves really, in terms of it's hard for any suit to fit enough mods they are ALWAYS invisible, or ALWAYS see everyone http://goo.gl/JNGFOJ
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:00:00 - [72] - Quote Shouldn't the chances of being detected increase the closer you get instead of the opposite? It seems to me that the picture and spreadsheet have the wrong stats.
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 82	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:06:00 - [73] - Quote Terry Webber wrote: Shouldn't the chances of being detected increase the closer you get instead of the opposite? It seems to me that the picture and spreadsheet have the wrong stats. the probability of detect does go up. precision going down implies better detection of the enemy if their profile is static. :P
Iron Toast Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:16:00 - [74] - Quote I think range extenders should be a fixed distance in the 10-15 m range (for complex). Changing this would allow a buff to medium suit (and commando?) precision while keeping their range very small. Medium suits then must use range extenders and possibly additional precision to make use of it. I prefer adding uncertainty in EWAR through additional modules that change the information shown on tac-net, such as decoys / displacement of position / jammers.
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:20:00 - [75] - Quote matsumoto yuichi san wrote: Terry Webber wrote: Shouldn't the chances of being detected increase the closer you get instead of the opposite? It seems to me that the picture and spreadsheet have the wrong stats. the probability of detect does go up. precision going down implies better detection of the enemy if their profile is static. :P So precision is actually stronger in close range where the number is low and weaker at long range where the number is high? Also how does the precision vs. dampening mechanic work exactly? I'm sort of unclear on that.
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 83	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:30:00 - [76] - Quote Terry Webber wrote: matsumoto yuichi san wrote: Terry Webber wrote: Shouldn't the chances of being detected increase the closer you get instead of the opposite? It seems to me that the picture and spreadsheet have the wrong stats. the probability of detect does go up. precision going down implies better detection of the enemy if their profile is static. :P So precision is actually stronger in close range where the number is low and weaker at long range where the number is high? Also how does the precision vs. dampening mechanic work exactly? I'm sort of unclear on that. yes the math is if precision <= profile you are detected so lower profile than precision invisible, lower precision than profile detected. damps thus lower profile making you harder to detect.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 307	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:31:00 - [77] - Quote Terry Webber wrote: Also how does the precision vs. dampening mechanic work exactly? I'm sort of unclear on that. If a hunter's Scan Precision is less than or equal to the hunted's Scant Profile, then the hunter will see the hunted on TacNet (so long as the hunted is within the hunter's Scan Range). Whether hunting and hunted, the lower your dB value, the better. Profile Dampeners (and related skills) improve/decrease your Scan Profile. Precision Enhancers (and related skills) improve/decrease your Scan Precision.
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:35:00 - [78] - Quote Now I understand. Thanks for clearing things up. This proposal would make EWAR a lot more interesting.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 899	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:36:00 - [79] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers Also, I see the Commandos' scan precision is 60dB. I think this would be better if it were 55dB. The commando fulfills a similar role to the assault. They have a limited slot layout so fitting EWAR modules is very difficult for them. I don't believe it should be quite as good as the assaults' scan precision, but at least make it on par with senitnels'. Based on this thread, it looks like Commando will get a better sig profile (-5) than current Sentinels and Sentinels will have better precision (+5) - skirmisher vs point defense. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3140	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:38:00 - [80] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I think giving Assaults the tools to be Scout Hunters is what is needed. Yep. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".

Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3140	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:40:00 - [81] - Quote Crazy idea: 1. Dampeners reduce your scan range. 2. Range amps reduce your precision. 3. Precision enhancers reduce your scan range. eWAR solved for ever. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 308	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:42:00 - [82] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Crazy idea: 1. Dampeners reduce your scan range. 2. Range amps reduce your precision. 3. Precision enhancers reduce your scan range. eWAR solved for ever. Because people are spamming EWAR modules. Or they might. We better nerf 'em. (All Hail King HP.)
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3140	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:44:00 - [83] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Crazy idea: 1. Dampeners reduce your scan range. 2. Range amps reduce your precision. 3. Precision enhancers reduce your scan range. eWAR solved for ever. Because people are spamming EWAR modules. Or they might. We better nerf 'em. (All Hail King HP.) This makes sense from a physics perspective also, if you think about it. Buff eWAR modules, but make them have drawbacks also. Perhaps a complex range amp give you +100% range, but increase your base precision by 10 dB or something? (3) is already implemented for the cloak, so why wouldnt passive profile damp modules follow that model? EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 972	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:50:00 - [84] - Quote Base Modifiers: Short Range: 60% range; 85% precision Long Range: 140% range; 115% precision Scouts Profile 40 Precision 45 Range 15 Assault Profile 45 Precision 50 Range 15 Logistics Profile 55 Precision 45 Range 20 Commando Profile 55 Precision 50 Range 15 Sentinel Profile 60 Precision 50 Range 10 Why: Firstly, the two new radii need to be significantly different from the base stats, otherwise we'll see no difference in effective gameplay. A 15% precision difference is an advanced module each way: this gives the worse precision the opportunity to scan the lower profiles without ridiculous sacrifice, while the reduction gives the higher profiles the potential to move about without being immediately noticed. The range difference again needs to be noticeable. A 40% change from base is hefty, but with the relatively low numbers (10m - 20m) we are working with, a sizeable proportion is needed. 40% means that even a 10m base without skills gives a reasonable radius, especially if combined with the possible changes to plates/extenders giving EWar penalties. Reducing the Scout radius slightly gives them something that they are capable, but are not utterly dominant, at while we can give another role that advantage without the same profile/precision advantages. Similarly, this also stops the CalScout bonus from perma-scanning everything in an enormous area. Increasing the base radius of all suits to a minimum of 15m means that all can take advantage of range amplifiers to some degree. The alterations to profile mean that some sacrifice is required to avoid most scans when in the optimal range, but long range scans are avoidable without too much sacrifice. My thoughts are that if EWar is to be improved, more people should be scanning similar enemies, such that Dampeners give a substantial advantage in line with their HP trade-off. Either you tank up and get scanned more easily, or you sacrifice and have an advantage against the tougher opponent. That's my two pence anyway. I have made a spreadsheet full of the numbers I've suggested, though it's not even vaguely as complex (or good) as Haerr's. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3217	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:59:00 - [85] - Quote Let me know if i'm wrong. From what i understand you have 3 chances (1 chance for each circle) of scanning someone else, the more one get close, the higher are the chance to scan him. Is it like that?
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Capital Punishment. 374	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:14:00 - [86] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on. It requires 2 precision mods, from what I am reading. I don't think many assaults will sacrifice two slots so they can scan a shotgunner or knifer at ranges where they're about to have their spleen removed. ^ All this sounds good, Awesome! As of now the strongest dynamic of ewar (or lack of) is all classes vs scouts, it's great to have more dynamism between non scout classes and vehicles sure, but from what I see with the current numbers, it won't help us much where it hurts the most other classes vs scouts. I can't digest the whole new system yet and I just quickly narrowed my view to what I usually run: Assault and how it could help me out vs scouts. Assuming all 5th level skills, If I add a complex precision (32.40 dB) I won't be able to see an undampened scout even at short range (3.75m)? usually a scout has speeds close to 10m/s, having the capacity to close into knife or shotgun range in less then a second makes any attempt to passively scan them pointless. I'd need to add two complex precision modules (29.74 dB) and a range amplifier to scan one at medium range (16.31 m) and I'm talking about an undampened scout which can realistically close the distance in less than 2 seconds. This is highly unappealing since while still being an easy target to scouts, now I'd be an easier target for pretty much anything else In my opinion, we need something more like rock paper scissors. www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 308	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:16:00 - [87] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Let me know if i'm wrong. From what i understand you have 3 chances (1 chance for each circle) of scanning someone else, the more one get close, the higher are the chance to scan him. Is it like that? "Chances" sounds like a dice roll or opportunity. Such as Heavies gets three chances to respond to Shotgun Scouts before dying. These mechanics are less like chances and more like concentric circles, wherein the innermost ring has higher intensity scans than the outermost.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2869	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:17:00 - [88] - Quote Great, just nerf the scan precision of the amarr scout bonus to 4% so that I can still knife them, and well be good. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2574	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:17:00 - [89] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Let me know if i'm wrong. From what i understand you have 3 chances (1 chance for each circle) of scanning someone else, the more one get close, the higher are the chance to scan him. Is it like that? No. Each suit has a decibel (dB) value for both profile (being scanned) and precision (scanning; active scanners also have dB values). When the profile dB is less than the precision dB, you're not scanned. When precision is equal or lower, you are scanned. Therefore scans are an "all-or-none" mechanic, either you are or your aren't. Currently, passive scans have a consistent dB reading the full range, so my 90m passive scanning Cal Scout will have the same dB reading across the whole distance. What this change will do is make my passive scans at the last 25% of my range be 10% less accurate (110% dB reading), while the nearest 25% distance be 10% stronger (90% dB reading). Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 185	Posted - 2014.11.17 21:01:00 - [90] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Crazy idea: 1. Dampeners reduce your scan range. 2. Range amps reduce your precision. 3. Precision enhancers increase your Profile. eWAR solved for ever. fixed for better rock paper scissors

matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 83	Posted - 2014.11.17 21:15:00 - [91] - Quote I am sad literally no one had any comments for or against my proposed numbers, does that mean everyone thinks they are good since there was no flaming ? :P
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3221	Posted - 2014.11.17 21:16:00 - [92] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: shaman oga wrote: Let me know if i'm wrong. From what i understand you have 3 chances (1 chance for each circle) of scanning someone else, the more one get close, the higher are the chance to scan him. Is it like that? No. Each suit has a decibel (dB) value for both profile (being scanned) and precision (scanning; active scanners also have dB values). When the profile dB is less than the precision dB, you're not scanned. When precision is equal or lower, you are scanned. Therefore scans are an "all-or-none" mechanic, either you are or your aren't. Currently, passive scans have a consistent dB reading the full range, so my 90m passive scanning Cal Scout will have the same dB reading across the whole distance. What this change will do is make my passive scans at the last 25% of my range be 10% less accurate (110% dB reading), while the nearest 25% distance be 10% stronger (90% dB reading). Understood, i would like something more progressive, more circles for instance, but i guess it's a lot of work for a PS3 system. A series of circles each at -2% +2% would be great.
Cass Caul 1583	Posted - 2014.11.17 21:48:00 - [93] - Quote 1) Scout range and Scout dampening does not need a Nerf. 2) as a closed beta Scout, that's been a Gallente Scout for more than 2 years now, after the removal of shared LoS and the buff to 16m scan range and a bonus of +50% to scan range, let me tell you how much 15 meters sucks. Because it does. It's not a significant change and it really won't help regardless of the number of people exited simply from seeing it as a buff. Anything sort of 16 is crap. Trust me, 15m won't make enough of a change. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 362	Posted - 2014.11.17 22:07:00 - [94] - Quote I'm inclined to say scout dampening bonuses should be scrapped. It's just too hard to balance EWAR otherwise. Dampening is such a fundamental stat for scouts it doesn't work to have some scouts better at it than others. It doesn't even matter about Caldari scout's lack of low slots, no scout should have to fit more than 2 dampeners anyway. Focused scanners should be countered by positioning and timing rather than dampening.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4632	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:07:00 - [95] - Quote I honestly think heavies and commando's could use 15m base scan range and scouts/assaults get 20 and logi's get slightly more. Scanners cost a ** ton of resources to fit (afaik the focused is 18 ***** pg 0_0) (but honestly I'd be fine if all but the flux scanners were squad only) Passive scans being shared needs to get blown to smithereens. I don't know what it will take...but it just needs to happen. So long as you can have one person sacrifice to be the dude with the best passive scans and just share the investment with everyone around you at all times...e-war will never be truly balanced. Precision on Scouts need to be worse than assaults and assaults worse than logi's. not terribad, but yes they need to give up the edge in precision game. Scouts were given an extra slot in 1.8. and they can all choose to get under all scans (sans gallogi focused) with 2 slots being used. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
iKILLu osborne Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 473	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:11:00 - [96] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Can the Cal scout get its precision bonus back now? i miss my precision too, i now look at gal scouts with a hatred that can only be eased with 4 eye stew lp cal scout i demand it z platoon, cfw channel
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2578	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:23:00 - [97] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: I honestly think heavies and commando's could use 15m base scan range and scouts/assaults get 20 and logi's get slightly more. Scanners cost a ** ton of resources to fit (afaik the focused is 18 ***** pg 0_0) (but honestly I'd be fine if all but the flux scanners were squad only) Passive scans being shared needs to get blown to smithereens. I don't know what it will take...but it just needs to happen. So long as you can have one person sacrifice to be the dude with the best passive scans and just share the investment with everyone around you at all times...e-war will never be truly balanced. Precision on Scouts need to be worse than assaults and assaults worse than logi's. not terribad, but yes they need to give up the edge in precision game. Scouts were given an extra slot in 1.8. and they can all choose to get under all scans (sans gallogi focused) with 2 slots being used. Scouts need longer range than every other suit. It shouldn't be too OP since virtually every suit can get under most combat-fit scout's scans. 25m should be fine. Passive sharing is fine, about as fair as a perma-scanning GalLogi. What's so wrong about sacrificing one player's usefulness in combat (no ehp due to all scan mods) to help the team with passives? If anything is to be done with passives, make them ony available on the mini-map and make active scans show on both the mini-map and HUD. That should be mor balanced. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 174	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:32:00 - [98] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: WeapondigitX V7 wrote: Please make scouts be unscannable if they are beyond 45m ranges with 2 complex damps. (for enemies with ewar dedicated fittings) With 3 complex damps please make scouts unscannable within 15 meters of the enemy (if enemy has Ewar dedicated fits) The nova knive scouts should be viable in PC. Make scouts need 4 complex damps to be unscannable within approx 10 meters. (when enemy is using ewar dedicated fits) All the above refers to passive scanning. Scouts sacrifice a lot using ewar dedicated fits. Be paranoid and look around a lot while in a squad and you''ll kill that sneaky scout sometimes. (if they use no hp mods and you have good aim, little lag) ...Unless I am reading the spreadsheet completely wrong, with these numbers, scouts with 2 complex damps would be unscannable at all ranges, even by a logi with 4 precision enhancers. And it would even take 3 enhancers to catch a scout with only one dampener at short-medium range. You've confused me, are you saying that we should get less benefit with 2 proto damps but same benefit as now with 3 damps and the same benefit as now with 4 damps? The std amarr scout only has 3 low slots. I was hoping corps that didn't have proto suits could still run ewar fits with proto mods and be competent at some level in PC by being able to evade any scans at certain ranges.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4638	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:34:00 - [99] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Scouts need longer range than every other suit. It shouldn't be too OP since virtually every suit can get under most combat-fit scout's scans. 25m should be fine. Passive sharing is fine, about as fair as a perma-scanning GalLogi. What's so wrong about sacrificing one player's usefulness in combat (no ehp due to all scan mods) to help the team with passives? If anything is to be done with passives, make them only available on the mini-map and make active scans show on both the mini-map and HUD. That should be mor balanced. Umm...because an amarr scout only needs to sacrifice 3 slots that cost about...that 100 cpu/0 pg? Vs a gal logi focused who using 4 slots and about what...72 PG before bonuses and a **** ton of CPU to get 5 seconds windows of opportunity with a long cooldown. You can't feasibly keep them up the whole time. and you're sacrificing tank as well due to the fitting costs. My double precision amarr scout? Stil 500 ehp on my scan fit. for perma scans. The underlined is cool...as an aside. But no passive scans need to be for yourself. I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war. What if Assaults had the best base range and logi's had the best base precision but 5m less range? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 315	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:36:00 - [100] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war. Somewhat confused. Why can't squishy scouts be better at EWAR than 1000+ HP units?

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:46:00 - [101] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war. Somewhat confused. Why can't squishy scouts be better at EWAR than 1000+ HP units? And if Zatara had his way, what would want Scouts to do in PC? Oh they absolutely should. Who insinuated otherwise? But when a squishy scout has the meta in all three aspects of e-war then you get to today in PC...where scouts are only not the most spammed thing in PC because when assaulting a point heavies ehp/hmg dps >cloak/re scouts. What should their purpose in PC be? You take scouts in 1.7 and add in the extra high or low and the equip slot...to say nothing of the cloak..and 1.7 woulda been awesome. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 318	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:04:00 - [102] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war. Somewhat confused. Why can't squishy scouts be better at EWAR than 1000+ HP units? And if Zatara had his way, what would want Scouts to do in PC? Oh they absolutely should. Who insinuated otherwise? But when a squishy scout has the meta in all three aspects of e-war then you get to today in PC...where scouts are only not the most spammed thing in PC because when assaulting a point heavies ehp/hmg dps >cloak/re scouts. What should their purpose in PC be? You take scouts in 1.7 and add in the extra high or low and the equip slot...to say nothing of the cloak..and 1.7 woulda been awesome. I'm still not seeing what you want from Scouts in PC. The general consensus is that the Scout should be penalized for HP tank. Shame on you, Assault Lite, but thank you for your help clearing out that Heavy Spam. So if they aren't supposed to run tank to kill heavies, what's the next best thing we can do for you? Run precision amps and range extenders; share those strong passives with the killers and try to stay out-of-the-way. Right? Apparently not. So ... sneak around with low HP and a low profile and pop/place uplinks? I don't see the value, but if you say so ...
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5925	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:10:00 - [103] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war. Somewhat confused. Why can't squishy scouts be better at EWAR than 1000+ HP units? And if Zatara had his way, what would want Scouts to do in PC? Oh they absolutely should. Who insinuated otherwise? But when a squishy scout has the meta in all three aspects of e-war then you get to today in PC...where scouts are only not the most spammed thing in PC because when assaulting a point heavies ehp/hmg dps >cloak/re scouts. What should their purpose in PC be? You take scouts in 1.7 and add in the extra high or low and the equip slot...to say nothing of the cloak..and 1.7 woulda been awesome. I am by no means a PC player, but when cloaks are intimately tied to EWAR (all except for Gal), and you at the very least have a higher occurrence of Gal Logi's with Focused scanners and Amarr with max precision than pubs/FW, then you in essence force them to use the cloaks. No maybe there is some fluke where PC players aren't maxing their passive and active scanning abilities, I don't know. But it seems to me that in PC, of all places, because of the likelyhood to max out suit fittings, and having EWAR tied up in cloaks, that it is only natural that is what they would use. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:11:00 - [104] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: ... Again with insinuations that I am not asserting. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:19:00 - [105] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war. Somewhat confused. Why can't squishy scouts be better at EWAR than 1000+ HP units? And if Zatara had his way, what would want Scouts to do in PC? Oh they absolutely should. Who insinuated otherwise? But when a squishy scout has the meta in all three aspects of e-war then you get to today in PC...where scouts are only not the most spammed thing in PC because when assaulting a point heavies ehp/hmg dps >cloak/re scouts. What should their purpose in PC be? You take scouts in 1.7 and add in the extra high or low and the equip slot...to say nothing of the cloak..and 1.7 woulda been awesome. I am by no means a PC player, but when cloaks are intimately tied to EWAR (all except for Gal), and you at the very least have a higher occurrence of Gal Logi's with Focused scanners and Amarr with max precision than pubs/FW, then you in essence force them to use the cloaks. No maybe there is some fluke where PC players aren't maxing their passive and active scanning abilities, I don't know. But it seems to me that in PC, of all places, because of the likelyhood to max out suit fittings, and having EWAR tied up in cloaks, that it is only natural that is what they would use. On paper gal logi's look really appetizing in attempting to play a role in detecting scouts.. In practice...they are useless at detecting scouts...and amarr aren't much better. The % of the time you're going to scan a scout in PC because you used a gallogi focused is lol...and then it's 5 seconds with a long cooldown. So yeah..all scouts in PC use 2 damps + cloak...what's your point? Unless facing an opponent who you presume is a noob (pubs)..there's very little reason -not- to run 2 damps and a cloak in all situations..unless you're purposefully brick tanking it. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 319	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:34:00 - [106] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: ... Again with insinuations that I am not asserting. I'm not intending to assert or insinuation anything. Simply seeking clarification. Assuming Shared Passives cannot be disabled: 1. Do you think Scouts should be penalized when they HP tank? 2. Do you think Scout Scan Precision should be made inferior to Assault Scan Precision?
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:41:00 - [107] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: ... Again with insinuations that I am not asserting. I'm not intending to assert or insinuation anything. Simply seeking clarification. Assuming Shared Passives cannot be disabled: 1. Do you think Scouts should be penalized when they HP tank? 2. Do you think Scout Scan Precision should be made inferior to Assault Scan Precision? Umm...should there be opportunity costs for scouts brick tanking? Yes. Do I think assaults should have better precision than scouts? either better...or the same. If not assaults. Give the best precision to logi's. They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. I also think range amplifiers should be a set amount of meters! B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 320	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:52:00 - [108] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. I'd expect the opposite, as MedFrames have a good 'bit more base HP and better slot count than Scouts. So, what would prevent high HP units from running high-intensity, shared passive scans? If high-intensity, shared passive scans have to exists, wouldn't it be best to restrict them to easy-to-squish units?
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 426	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:53:00 - [109] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' According to your numbers Scout with 3 Enhancer's (21.08 dB short range) can not scan up 4 Damped Assaults and Logistics(21.05 dB), and 2 Enhancer Scout can not detect 4 Damped Sentinels (25.26 dB) - So I am very curious about new Scout bonuses.. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5930	Posted - 2014.11.18 01:01:00 - [110] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Edit: Yeah I don't know what exactly of my post you're responding to/contesting. Care to clarify? I think my mind may have cobbled together an argument about only seeing a cloak, which I either miss read, or pulled out of my brains RAM from another post I saw inadvertently. OR I had a good reason, but can't remember what it is at the moment. My apologizes. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4640	Posted - 2014.11.18 01:08:00 - [111] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. I'd expect the opposite, as MedFrames have a good 'bit more base HP and better slot count than Scouts. So, what would prevent high HP units from running high-intensity, shared passive scans? If high-intensity, shared passive scans have to exists, wouldn't it be best to restrict them to easy-to-squish units? I was comparing medium to assault combat. Scouts would still just damp up and own mediums from behind like they already do. What prevents HP ehp units from running high intensity, shared passive scans? Well...for one assaults and logi's rarely get more than 800 ehp. a scout fully damped can get around 500-600ehp. so you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision? this is working very poorly for balance indeed. Scouts need to retain the meta on dampening, but surrender the meta on precision and either share the meta, or surrender it on scan range. I have already expressed my thoughts on passive scanning...I think they need to find a way to turn it off. But if there's going to be a meta of passive scanning...it should be assaults or logi's. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 174	Posted - 2014.11.18 01:35:00 - [112] - Quote After reading approx. 5 pages I think this proposal would have a more positive effect than Rattatis proposals of the outer and inner circles ranges and precision. Active scanner equipment should have the idea of better precision to detect enemies the closer they are. Just like what Rattati is proposing for passive scans. I would propose EQ scanners have a 100% precision modifier at 95% of there current range. With 70% precision modifier at 47% of there current range. With 20% precision modifier at 25% of current range. This allows gal logis to scan scouts that are very close to allies (just aim the scanner in direction the allies backs are facing). It allows gal logis to scan scouts in line of sight at low ranges and, in effect, call for help to the entire allied team because the entire team may converge on the scout cause they see it. This allows all classes with scanners to call for help in killing targets at close range because of the scanners high precision at close range (basically it fulfills the role of calling for help on the microphone to other allies with microphones, except allies magically have a microphone at that instant every time, this incentivizes team work while putting those with scanners in danger because of the low range combined with high precision.) For passive scanning: make the inner circle have better qualities, give a precision modifier of approx. 70% with a range of approx. 42%. Make the outer circle have a precision modifier of 120% with a range of approx. 140%. Make middle circle have a precision modifier of 100% and range modifier of 100%. This would make players be able to better realistically apply there ewar stats in battle. With max lvl 5 skills: Assault base scan precision: 50dB Assault base scan range: 15m Assaults with a proto range amp would get 7.5 extra meters of range in additon to 15m base range with 100% precision modifier (22m range rounded down with 50dB precision), while also getting a precision of 35 dB at a range of 13m (9m penalty rounded up). They also get a precision of 60dB at a range of 31m allowing them to detect undamped heavies at a good range. With 1 proto precision mod and 1 proto range mod, it gets way better for all classes: Assaults: 50dB x 0.8 x 0.7 at range of 13m: 28dB scan precision 50dB x 0.8 x 1.2 at range of 31m: 48dB scan precision, thus all moderately dampened heavies are scanned at 31m 50db x 0.8 at range of 22m: 40dB scan precision, tanked assaults are scanned which are around the corner in corridors. These proposed changes would have a larger positive effect. A std amarr assault with 3 proto damps gets a scan profile of approx. 23 dB if I remember correctly.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 330	Posted - 2014.11.18 02:13:00 - [113] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. I'd expect the opposite, as MedFrames have a good 'bit more base HP and better slot count than Scouts. So, what would prevent high HP units from running high-intensity, shared passive scans? If high-intensity, shared passive scans have to exists, wouldn't it be best to restrict them to easy-to-squish units? I was comparing logi to assault combat. Scouts would still just damp up and own mediums from behind like they already do. What prevents high ehp units from running high intensity, shared passive scans? TL;DR opportunity cost on the slots. Well...for one assaults and logi's rarely opt for more than 800 ehp. A high e-war suit is probably gonna knock that down to...about 500-600? a scout fully damped can get around 500-600ehp. so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision? this contradicts the assertion that scouts need to be squishy to run the gambit on all three levels of e-war. this is working very poorly for balance indeed. Scouts need to retain the meta on dampening, but surrender the meta on precision and either share the meta, or surrender it on scan range. I have already expressed my thoughts on passive scanning...I think they need to find a way to turn it off. But if there's going to be a meta of passive scanning...it should be assaults or logi's. For PC, I run an AM Scout with 2 Precision Enhancers and 2 Range Extenders. For my last two lows, I choose between Damps or HP. I could run recon using another Scout, say Gallente or Caldari, but then I couldn't claim to have "competitive" scan precision so FC would probably pass me up, min / max and all. All that to say, I can't think of a single, competitive recon scout who can simultaneously run tank, precision and damps . Would it be too much to ask for you to cook one up for me? I ask because you say ... so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision? ... and I'd like to learn precisely what you mean by this.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2565	Posted - 2014.11.18 02:24:00 - [114] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: ... Again with insinuations that I am not asserting. I'm not intending to assert or insinuation anything. Simply seeking clarification. Assuming Shared Passives cannot be disabled: 1. Do you think Scouts should be penalized when they HP tank? 2. Do you think Scout Scan Precision should be made inferior to Assault Scan Precision? Umm...should there be opportunity costs for scouts brick tanking? Yes. Do I think assaults should have better precision than scouts? either better...or the same. If not assaults. Give the best precision to logi's. They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. I also think range amplifiers should be a set amount of meters! I think Ewar efficacy should be something like: 1. Scout 2. Assault 3. Commando & Logi 4. Sentinel Logis get the CPU/PG to fit scanners, and GalLogis get the efficacy bonus too. They don't need suit stats as well, and should want a scout or assault in their squad to round out the group's situational awareness. If you don't think active scanners are good at scanning, then that should be addressed via improving active scanners. We don't need Logi good at everything again. Best PvE idea ever!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2187	Posted - 2014.11.18 02:35:00 - [115] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: ... Again with insinuations that I am not asserting. I'm not intending to assert or insinuation anything. Simply seeking clarification. Assuming Shared Passives cannot be disabled: 1. Do you think Scouts should be penalized when they HP tank? 2. Do you think Scout Scan Precision should be made inferior to Assault Scan Precision? Umm...should there be opportunity costs for scouts brick tanking? Yes. Do I think assaults should have better precision than scouts? either better...or the same. If not assaults. Give the best precision to logi's. They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. I also think range amplifiers should be a set amount of meters! I think Ewar efficacy should be something like: 1. Scout 2. Assault 3. Commando & Logi 4. Sentinel Logis get the CPU/PG to fit scanners, and GalLogis get the efficacy bonus too. They don't need suit stats as well, and should want a scout or assault in their squad to round out the group's situational awareness. If you don't think active scanners are good at scanning, then that should be addressed via improving active scanners. We don't need Logi good at everything again. Logis don't NEED any advantage in a combat situation. They can fit light weapons, but combat is their secondary role to support. I also disagree with removing shared passive scans. That will make the cloaky scout issue much worse. As attack power increases, EWAR should decrease. Sentinels have the worst EWAR for best attack power, scouts should have the best EWAR in exchange for crap attack power. Therefore, logis should have better EWAR than assaults, unless we want logos having better attack power than assaults? The idea is that these suits cannot function well independently, and need each other. The assault is vulnerable without the EWAR logo backing it up, and the logo needs the assault to defend it in a straight up fight. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2487	Posted - 2014.11.18 02:44:00 - [116] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: As attack power increases, EWAR should decrease. Sentinels have the worst EWAR for best attack power, scouts should have the best EWAR in exchange for crap attack power. Therefore, logis should have better EWAR than assaults, unless we want logos having better attack power than assaults? The idea is that these suits cannot function well independently, and need each other. The assault is vulnerable without the EWAR logo backing it up, and the logo needs the assault to defend it in a straight up fight. What? How do Scouts have crap attack power? You're an invisible all-seeing death machine. Sneaking up on someone that can't see you and blasting them in the back with a shotgun is pretty strong attack power. If anything, I think Assaults should have lowered scan profile and Logis should have lowered scan precision. For ex. give Assaults 40 dB scan profile and Logis 40 dB scan precision such that they could fit modules in those respective areas and actually have use for them. Right now fitting scan modules on any medium frame suit is awful compared to just bricking it. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2187	Posted - 2014.11.18 02:50:00 - [117] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: As attack power increases, EWAR should decrease. Sentinels have the worst EWAR for best attack power, scouts should have the best EWAR in exchange for crap attack power. Therefore, logis should have better EWAR than assaults, unless we want logos having better attack power than assaults? The idea is that these suits cannot function well independently, and need each other. The assault is vulnerable without the EWAR logo backing it up, and the logo needs the assault to defend it in a straight up fight. What? How do Scouts have crap attack power? You're an invisible all-seeing death machine. Sneaking up on someone that can't see you and blasting them in the back with a shotgun is pretty strong attack power. If anything, I think Assaults should have lowered scan profile and Logis should have lowered scan precision. For ex. give Assaults 40 dB scan profile and Logis 40 dB scan precision such that they could fit modules in those respective areas and actually have use for them. Right now fitting scan modules on any medium frame suit is awful compared to just bricking it. Bolded, italicized, and underlined the operative word you missed. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2308	Posted - 2014.11.18 03:38:00 - [118] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: I love this game, and I have been running complex dampeners on my logi/assault...heck even my sentinel sometimes even if it is a waste of a module when you do the math. I want this idea to work, but the current system is so complicated that not everyone is willing to do the math on these things in order to figure out if certain modules are worth it to use. SO PLEASE RATTATI Can we finally get e-war stats added to the fitting screen? Because if doing a complete overhaul of e-war isn't an option then we at least need to have a way to look at numbers and create numbers in-game rather than sitting here calculating then every time we want to discuss e-war? Don't get me wrong, I love math, but I hate providing feedback on this subject simply because of this reason. This. So very much this. Also have to support this, it's a big issue for the NPE. If new player uptake/retention is an issue or better yet a goal, we have to address the large volume of hidden character information in DUST. These intricate and interesting systems we're developing can & will drive players away, but an interactive intuitive fitting screen can leverage those complex systems into a theorycrafting, OCD-exploiting player retention mechanic. It's a big ask right now, too big imo, iirc there were serious database issues in accessing some of the information we're asking for. But worth keeping in mind for the future. Re: the thread topic. Beautiful! Would like to see the base scan range of medium suits such that range extenders were a reasonable temptation. Love the dynamics that this mechanic introduces, but we always have to ask ourselves: 'What does this mean for the wallhackiness of DUST?' Imo wallhacking results in fatalities primarily at short ranges and it looks like under this mechanic strong ewar types will gain a differential advantage: i.e. the 10% increase in their prey's precision will not affect the dynamics of that situation. As with all things ewar, the lag in the tacnet takes a bit of the shine off what will one day be one of the crown jewels of DUST's gameplay: the information war. Lastly, we go through an awful lot of contortions to compensate for the scout's ability to brick tank. I would be tempted to make brick tanking work directly against the scout's strengths: mobility and scan profile. PSN: RationalSpark
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5942	Posted - 2014.11.18 03:47:00 - [119] - Quote @ Zatara If you were to take 2 of the 3 EWAR aspects away from scouts, scanning and range, and give them to medium frames: 1) What would the Caldari (Range), and Amarr (Precision) get in return for their sacrifice? 2) What would the medium frames getting these added bonuses be giving up? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7248	Posted - 2014.11.18 04:09:00 - [120] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war. Somewhat confused. Why can't squishy scouts be better at EWAR than 1000+ HP units? And if Zatara had his way, what would want Scouts to do in PC? Oh they absolutely should. Who insinuated otherwise? But when a squishy scout has the meta in all three aspects of e-war then you get to today in PC...where scouts are only not the most spammed thing in PC because when assaulting a point heavies ehp/hmg dps >cloak/re scouts. What should their purpose in PC be? You take scouts in 1.7 and add in the extra high or low and the equip slot...to say nothing of the cloak..and 1.7 woulda been awesome. I am by no means a PC player, but when cloaks are intimately tied to EWAR (all except for Gal), and you at the very least have a higher occurrence of Gal Logi's with Focused scanners and Amarr with max precision than pubs/FW, then you in essence force them to use the cloaks. No maybe there is some fluke where PC players aren't maxing their passive and active scanning abilities, I don't know. But it seems to me that in PC, of all places, because of the likelyhood to max out suit fittings, and having EWAR tied up in cloaks, that it is only natural that is what they would use. On paper gal logi's look really appetizing in attempting to play a role in detecting scouts.. In practice...they are useless at detecting scouts...and amarr aren't much better. The % of the time you're going to scan a scout in PC because you used a gallogi focused is lol...and then it's 5 seconds with a long cooldown. So yeah..all scouts in PC use 2 damps + cloak...what's your point? Unless facing an opponent who you presume is a noob (pubs)..there's very little reason -not- to run 2 damps and a cloak in all situations..unless you're purposefully brick tanking it. Edit: Yeah I don't know what exactly of my post you're responding to/contesting. Care to clarify? I really hate that team-scans were implemented, honestly. At first I was excited because I was like, "Yay, my Gal Logi bonus actually helps the team and not just the squad" and "Yay, more WP finally I can be like the other Logis" Annnnd then I come to find out everyone and their mother is just *****ing about being perma-scanned and we don't even get WP for it anyway. Soooo kill the team scans with fire, allow Gal Logis to actually be able to scan Scouts with a Focused (I still think it was the dumbest decision ever to make it to where all scouts could get underneath that) and then balance the passive scans accordingly. Gal Logi needs to be good at -something- and considering -no one uses the focused scanner anyway-..... Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs

medomai grey WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1088	Posted - 2014.11.18 04:39:00 - [121] - Quote E-war does need changes and I am glad that it's being looked over. But I would prefer if "player action" influenced E-war instead of another static, best number wins system. What do I mean by "player action"? An example would be a player running or firing a weapon would experience a increase in profile while a player who is still or crouching would experience a lower profile. Having E-war influenced by "player action" will create better "waves of opportunity" than using another set of static mechanics that will have outcomes determined in fitting menus. How to balance cloaks.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2567	Posted - 2014.11.18 04:39:00 - [122] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I realize that it's not possible to have a gradual precision curve and that precision radii have to occur in hard-defined bands. I assume this is largely for performance reasons. I do wonder if it would be possible to introduce an element of randomness in the current proposal. Calls to rand() are pretty efficient and it might make things more interesting. So these values of your proposal would effect the chance of success/failure. I know it's tacky to self-quote but I just wanted to expand on this a bit. This is just an example, the numbers are up for debate. Let's say for example that as your precision approaches their dampening your chances of seeing them get better. Here's a rough idea of how it might work Precision is +1 greater than damps you have a 30% chance to detect them each "roll" Precision is +2 greater than damps you have a 22% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +3 greater than damps you have a 17% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +4 greater than damps you have a 13% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +5 greater than damps you have a 10% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +6 greater than damps you have a 7% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +7 greater than damps you have a 5% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +8 greater than damps you have a 3% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +9 greater than damps you have a 2% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +10 greater than damps you have a 1% chance to detect them for each "roll" Precision is +11 or more, you cannot detect them. If Precision == damps it's 50/50 Precision is -1 less than damps you have a 70% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -2 less than damps you have a 78% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -3 less than damps you have a 83% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -4 less than damps you have a 87% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -5 less than damps you have a 90% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -6 less than damps you have a 93% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -7 less than damps you have a 95% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -8 less than damps you have a 97% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -9 less than damps you have a 98% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -10 less than damps you have a 99% chance to detect them on each "roll" Precision is -11 or less, you always detect them. Best PvE idea ever!
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 174	Posted - 2014.11.18 04:47:00 - [123] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. I'd expect the opposite, as MedFrames have a good 'bit more base HP and better slot count than Scouts. So, what would prevent high HP units from running high-intensity, shared passive scans? If high-intensity, shared passive scans have to exists, wouldn't it be best to restrict them to easy-to-squish units? I was comparing logi to assault combat. Scouts would still just damp up and own mediums from behind like they already do. What prevents high ehp units from running high intensity, shared passive scans? TL;DR opportunity cost on the slots. Well...for one assaults and logi's rarely opt for more than 800 ehp. A high e-war suit is probably gonna knock that down to...about 500-600? a scout fully damped can get around 500-600ehp. so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision? this contradicts the assertion that scouts need to be squishy to run the gambit on all three levels of e-war. this is working very poorly for balance indeed. Scouts need to retain the meta on dampening, but surrender the meta on precision and either share the meta, or surrender it on scan range. I have already expressed my thoughts on passive scanning...I think they need to find a way to turn it off. But if there's going to be a meta of passive scanning...it should be assaults or logi's. For PC, I run an AM Scout with 2 Precision Enhancers and 2 Range Extenders. For my last two lows, I choose between Damps or HP. I could run recon using another Scout, say Gallente or Caldari, but then I couldn't claim to have "competitive" scan precision so FC would probably pass me up, min / max and all. All that to say, I can't think of a single, competitive recon scout who can simultaneously run tank, precision and damps . Would it be too much to ask for you to cook one up for me? I ask because you say ... so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision? ... and I'd like to learn precisely what you mean by this. Edit: While we're on the subject of AM Scout ... this is a unit who was once without a role, but (thanks to Rattati) now it has one. What happens to the AM Scout if Precision gets yanked from Scouts? I would also like to know what happens to the amarr scout because I run amarr everything. I need 3 proto damps and 2 precision to be damped well and have short range defensive scanning at a competitive level, with 1 proto rep and adv cloak so my fit is sustainable. My passive scan range is 30m so I cant support my squad with good scans at good ranges. Thus I don't think I can retain 500 hp while having competitive precision, dampening, and range. I just don't have the mod slot count or the PG/CPU to do that.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 175	Posted - 2014.11.18 04:58:00 - [124] - Quote Edited a post on page six with some updated calculations about my proposed EQ scanner changes and updated assault calculations by changing assault precision from 50 to 45dB with max lvl 5 skills. These proposed changes make gal logis with focused scanners able to scan anything but at reduced ranges while having the current precision at longer ranges. It allows people to call for help by showing close enemies to the whole allied team etc.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3145	Posted - 2014.11.18 05:55:00 - [125] - Quote I think we all agree that scouts cant be best at every eWAR aspect in the game, while at the same time being the fastest suits with smallest hitboxes. Something gotta give. Question for other scouts: What is the eWAR stat you want scouts to excel at? Dampening? Scan range? Dampening makes most sense, so lets assume that scout = dampening experts. Who is then a range expert, which class is a precision expert, etc? EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
Ace Boone Capital Acquisitions LLC 385	Posted - 2014.11.18 06:19:00 - [126] - Quote As soon as scouts get nerfed into the ground because of the community whining, I'm out. So sick of classes like ADS or scout getting hit with the nerf hammer. We've been nerfed over, and over again. The huge delay between cloaking and firing, the terribad nerf to precision while cloaked, cal precision nerf, the big delay between throwing remotes and detonating them. Easy mode is pretty much gone, it actually takes a fair amount of skill to run a scout. I still get shredded by HMGs, scrambler rifles, assault rifles and pretty much every projectile weapon, and plasma cannons.. If we have good eWar, we're probably under 400 eHP. and if I'm getting scanned. All of the OP scouts, the ones dropping 40 bombs every pub, are probably running no more than 400 eHP. I ******* hate this community. Only loyal to the republic.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2569	Posted - 2014.11.18 06:50:00 - [127] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I think we all agree that scouts cant be best at every eWAR aspect in the game, while at the same time being the fastest suits with smallest hitboxes. Something gotta give. Question for other scouts: What is the eWAR stat you want scouts to excel at? Dampening? Scan range? Dampening makes most sense, so lets assume that scout = dampening experts. Who is then a range expert, which class is a precision expert, etc? Rattati: Is it possible to make the "scan bands" have a stronger precision further out than close by? This would be really cool on commando suits. Be able to do long range scans, but not see enemies up close. We certainly don't all agree with that. I think buffing assault's Ewar enough so running a couple modules is worth the EHP sacrifice is a good place to start, as is this proposal by CCP Rattati. Sorry but scouts should be Ewar kings, there just needs to be a class that's an Ewar queen to keep them in check. Best PvE idea ever!
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8501	Posted - 2014.11.18 08:15:00 - [128] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: the base stats should reflect some racial preference buff the racial suits base stats by 5 units according to their respective ewar. that would open up things alot better than scouts only for ewar. the point is that each role racial suit should be able to get some functional benefit from using single ewar module. all amarr suits should have better precision all gallente suits should have better profile all caldari suits should have better range EDIT: each races suits are styled differently, some are better armor tankers, some are better shield tankers. why would they not also have a preference with how they handle ewar? Rattati, please do this. Make Ewar based more on Race and Role and not solely just All Assaults universally have this eWar ability. It's alreay immersion breaking when all Factions color code their suits the same way. eWar doesn't need to follow this trait. Plus, eWar depending on Race and Role provides a lot more diversity to this game and as a True Gallente it's inherit that I think:Diversity = Good CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 364	Posted - 2014.11.18 08:52:00 - [129] - Quote What about a compromise. Instead of giving scouts the best of all three EWAR elements, or just one, how about they have the best of 2. I would propose dampening and range. Buff assault range to 15 and profile to 45. Buff logi precision to 40ish. Nerf scout precision to 45ish. Logis can fit scan mods to scan scouts who don't damp much, little effect on assaults who generally attack logis from range. With scout precision nerfed and assault profile buffed assaults can fit damps to avoid scout scans. They can also fit scan mods to scan medium and heavy suits. Scouts are encouraged to fit precision to counter damped mediums rather than scouts. Countering scouts is about logis, not more scouts. Even without profile bonuses (that I suggested removing earlier) scouts could still avoid passive scans with 2 damps. Swap gal bonus for cloak regen, Cal bonus for cloak duration. Keep the prec and range bonuses. Whilst I'm at it. Gal logi precision bonus needs to go (replace with cooldown or angle buff). Otherwise it's too hard for mediums to avoid active scans. Focused scanners should be buffed to 15db. Add an advanced focused scanner. EWAR = sorted.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 462	Posted - 2014.11.18 09:36:00 - [130] - Quote On a phone so haven't read all posts. Does the new coding allow you/ ccp to make the suits / profile more dynamic? I think uf you are 5/7m from any player/ suit you should be seen even if your behind them. Just on the basis of the electrical gear you are carrying. Though if you were a scout with just knives maybe not. Basically can a profile be attached to equipment/ weapons H/l slots etc that increase your profile? So if you run bare bones you don't get picked up but adding equipment etc increases your profile? And if you shoot your weapon you should be lit up for 5 seconds.

Kuruld Sengar Y.A.M.A.H 44	Posted - 2014.11.18 11:40:00 - [131] - Quote As this is in the features and discussion section I assume it's intended as a sort of think tank thread? If so I have a couple ideas. If it is more intended towards tweaking the numbers in that spreadsheet, without the possibility of additional/alternate features, I'll leave it to you unless I can figure out how to make a dynamic spreadsheet with excel... If it is possible to add or tweak the features themselves such as number of range zones, skill/module rebalances, or even bring new ideas to your attention, then I have a bit more to say :P May I have some clarification which of the two it is? Or if the intent is something else entirely? Thank you for your time.
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 181	Posted - 2014.11.18 12:30:00 - [132] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is all, we believe, for the greater good of DUST 514. The CPM has called for it, the Community has called for it and CCP has wanted it for a long time. I honestly don't have much to add to this topic, e-war flies over my head for the most part, but I've thought about similar concepts on a very vague level that I never bothered developing- I assumed it was impossible and would never happen. I'm pretty happy about the direction of these changes, but even more happy that I was wrong and you're taking on the challenge. Thank you for listening to the players and lots of kudos to Haerr.
Haerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 1929	Posted - 2014.11.18 12:41:00 - [133] - Quote * Added Squad and Team sharing Active Scanners to the spreadsheet. Can Active scanners do 3 scans instead of 1? Just like the new passive scans? Oh and is it possible to move Range Amplifiers to high slots? It would neatly counterbalance being able to have both precise and long distance passive scans at the same time. I think that an Assault suit with 3cPDs should be able to avoid all passive scans @ medium range that a Max Precision Scout can throw at them. I also think that allowing an Assault suit with 3cPDs to avoid a Gallente Logistics Prototype Active Scanner @ Medium range is a good idea, what do you think?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 343	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:00:00 - [134] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I think we all agree that scouts cant be best at every eWAR aspect in the game, while at the same time being the fastest suits with smallest hitboxes. That's a fantastic mischaracterization. We don't all agree. Being the best at EWAR is no more sound basis for a nerf than Heavies being the best at stacking HP, Logis being the best at dropping EQ and Assaults being the best at frontline slaying. What does a Scout contribute to squad if not his passive scans?
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7257	Posted - 2014.11.18 14:46:00 - [135] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: I think we all agree that scouts cant be best at every eWAR aspect in the game, while at the same time being the fastest suits with smallest hitboxes. That's a fantastic mischaracterization. We don't all agree. Being the best at EWAR is no more sound basis for a nerf than Heavies being the best at stacking HP, Logis being the best at dropping EQ and Assaults being the best at frontline slaying. What does a Scout contribute to squad if not his passive scans? Spleen removing CQC accompanied by insanely low profile and cloaks, two equipment slots providing 'Logi-Lite' gameplay, able to stack as much EHP as some Assault's while still maintaining a faster speed. I feel like Iron Man talking to Thor right now. We're cool with Scouts being the best at -SOME- EWAR but being the best at all of it - let alone all of it at once - is just stupid. It's treading on too many toes of other roles and it's created a particular viability decrease in a lot of those roles. Knowing in the back of my mind how -useless- the Focused Scanner is and the fact that I can't even scan down any scout that decides to fit his suit a certain way..? Pointless. Might as well just run Amarr Scout. Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 344	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:02:00 - [136] - Quote No Scout can "be the best" in every EWAR capacity at once. But let's assume one could. He'll have 250HP and will die instantly when's spotted. He will favor hiding to fighting. When he hides using cloak, he will be blind. He will contribute scans to his squad, but will earn no WP. He will place at the bottom of every leaderboard every match. How can we compare this to a Logi?
iWanderer PT-BR 10	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:42:00 - [137] - Quote Haerr wrote: * Added Squad and Team sharing Active Scanners to the spreadsheet. Can Active scanners do 3 scans instead of 1? Just like the new passive scans? Oh and is it possible to move Range Amplifiers to high slots? It would neatly counterbalance being able to have both precise and long distance passive scans at the same time. I think that an Assault suit with 3cPDs should be able to avoid all passive scans @ medium range that a Max Precision Scout can throw at them. I also think that allowing an Assault suit with 3cPDs to avoid a Gallente Logistics Prototype Active Scanner @ Medium range is a good idea, what do you think? Been messing around with your sheet and I think I almost got my proposal readable. Can only post later at night. But I can share a few outcomes: Example: A Gal scout with 1 damp can evade a Gal scout with no damp at medium range. This fixes the kind of things in your sheet where a sentinel would need to have 4 complex precision to see a Gal Scout at medium range. Basically I raised the dampening requirements on scouts to become closer to assaults. I also expanded the precision range because it was getting tight to fit all in between the previous values of 12db to 60, and now use 12 to 66, plus a few other tweaks. Another exemple: Amarr/Min Scout need 1 enhanced damp to evade a assault with 2 complex precision. Post it later.
Haerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 1945	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:21:00 - [138] - Quote One way of encouraging Scouts to use a cloak is to have inactive cloaks give a passive bonus to dampening and larger bonus to dampening when active. Figured I'd just throw it out there. Edit: So instead of attaching the dampener bonus to one scout or another it is given to any scout who fits a cloak.
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:43:00 - [139] - Quote Haerr wrote: One way of encouraging Scouts to use a cloak is to have inactive cloaks give a passive bonus to dampening and larger bonus to dampening when active. Figured I'd just throw it out there. Edit: So instead of attaching the dampener bonus to one scout or another it is given to any scout who fits a cloak. I disagree! The cloak just by itself it a great visual trick mastery reserved only for suits who have the requirements. There are suits in your own sheet that don-¦t have a equipment slot but you still calculated a cloak scenario that is impossible. Cloaks just by themselves are great things and I don-¦t think they need added bonus except maybe one, fitting reduction for all suits or dampening for all suits. Even today I still notice you can release a shot while the cloak animation is running, and I think under the 1 second mark. If really cloaked or not I dont know.
KenKaniff69 2502	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:59:00 - [140] - Quote Where is Haerr's spreadsheet? ?

iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:02:00 - [141] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2464720#post2464720 Awsome work!
Lloyd Orfay SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 221	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:12:00 - [142] - Quote I had an idea for this EWAR falloff system. It's about weaponry. The idea is to give weaponry a percent-based multiplier based on their damage stat. This multiplier will incease the user's scanner profile the closer they get to the normal and strong ranges of the circle. Say there are high damaged long ranged weaponry. These weapons will have a high multiplier, which will increase the scanner profile of the user to a point where they are prompted to shoot opponents at longer ranges. So say there is a person that gets many kills from CQCing a scrambler rifle. With this system, because of the scrambler rifle's damage their scanner profile will increase significantly enough for their next victim to be ready against the attack. Due to the increased profile, any other players near the victim will notice. The CQC scrambler player will be fought off and prompted to start using the rifle at longer ranges to engage enemies. This will also promote the use of dampening. Now, say there is someone with an assault combat rifle. Since the ACR has a low damage statistic, they will be less likely to be scanned from the multiplier's effect. More players may use certain weapons for this benefit, promoting the use of precision modules. Even with lower damage weaponry, the percentage multiplier still exists, putting risk to extreme CQC/surprise attack tactics. Very powerful advanced/prototype weaponry will be setback by this, as the multiplier will slightly increase in correlation to this depending on how major the damage increase is. This will also essentially effect scouts in a way so that they cannot apply their stealth to shotguns, or any high damage weaponry, thus lowering their killing potential. The system will alongside work for vehicles, where vehicles with speciic turrets that are high damage can't hide, and those with lower damage turrets can. AV are included in this, by making them unable to hide against a vehicle driver/pilot. This will prevent vehicles from being heavily ambushed as they are now. Finally, placing certain equipment, like bombs, will increase the scanning profile by a great magnitude when a player brings them out, putting an end to players stealth bombing other players with RE's, and warning vehicle drivers further. Everyone is affected and put on a grounds to plan more tactically as a result.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13285	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:40:00 - [143] - Quote General Goal in this idea: When I thought of the falloff idea, it was meant for detecting tanks and heavies at longer distances that the pitiful 15m my Assault gets, because it makes sense that such large units will be detected at longer distances than an Assault or Scout suit. You fixed the tank problem, but Sentinels will still be practically invisible to Assaults, no matter how many precision enhancers you put on. I also want suits with a lot of precision enhancers and a lot of dampeners to be rewarded, but not so rewarded that other modules become obsolete. I also want so that at very short distances, scanning becomes VERY strong. At shotgun range, a scout runs the risk of meeting a logistics suit with a lot of precision mods on, meaning they will be detected. Overall, I want to create a more dynamic battlefield with a much larger fitting diversity. Design Choices: I gave Logis and Scouts the same stats in terms of scan range and precision. In a rock paper scissors game, I don't believe making scouts the counter to scouts is the best idea, hence giving them both the best profile and the best scanning is a ludicrous idea. In my suggestion they will still have one of the best (instead of THE best) scanning, while staying the stealthiest units on the field. I have also increased the base ranges on all the suits. The reason being that in order to have ANY use out of precision enhancers, you need to put on range amps, unless you're a scout. This means that unless you're a scout, you're much less likely to fit precision enhancers. I want a proper EWAR counterplay, and so fitting enhancers should be viable. Range amps + Precision enhancers should be costly but powerful, but not so powerful as to shun people away from dampeners. (That's where falloff comes in) In addition, I reduced the range bonus you get from the skill, and increased base range to compensate. A design choice for new players. It will still be a highly valuable skill, 25% extra range (instead of 50%) is quite a bit. Lastly, I nerfed range amps from 45% to 30%. Due to the nature of percentages, with the increased base ranges, range amps got out of control out at 45%. They were originally balanced for much smaller base ranges, and so I decided that it's a good idea to tone them down a bit. They will still be powerful, just not powerful enough to push ranges to ludicrous numbers. Changes done: Precision modifiers changed to: 60%/100%/130% Range modifiers changed to 20%/100%/125% Assault Suit base scan range upped to 24m Commando Suit base scan range upped to 24m Scout suit base scan range upped to 30m Scout suit base precision upped to 45dB Logistics suit base scan range upped to 30m Assault suit base profile changed to 45dB Commando suit base profile changed to 50dB Sentinel base scan range upped to 18m Range Amps have been nerfed from 45% to 30% *Notes:* -An Assault with one precision enhancer will detect an unmodded Heavy at long range -An Assault with 2 enhancers will detect a heavy with one dampener at long range -An Assault with 3 enhancers will not detect a heavy with 2 dampeners at long range -A Sentinel with 1 enhancer will detect an unmodded Assault at Medium Range -A Sentinel with 2 enhancers will not detect an Assault with a profile dampener at Medium range This is just a general idea of the kind of counter play you will be able to expect. I will not list everything (Though I might make a spreadsheet), as I think the above few points will allow you to get the idea. Here is a spreadsheet with the modified numbers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit?usp=sharing Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
The Telling Truth Second Stage Turbine Blade 0	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:49:00 - [144] - Quote Unless this proposal shakes up scout from always having the best starting point in precision vs mediums and allows a context for mediums to damp up from scouts this will do nothing to change the current meta of scouts beating every suit I own except my heavy suit and only that has a chance when i'm in a group of people watching my back. e-war with a few changes {scouts needing less damps to get under focused and fixing the 360 scans} was a much better system pre 1.8.
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:48:00 - [145] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: General Goal in this idea: Changes done: Precision modifiers changed to: 60%/100%/130% Range modifiers changed to 30%/100%/125% Assault Suit base scan range upped to 24m Commando Suit base scan range upped to 24m Scout suit base scan range upped to 30m Scout suit base precision upped to 45dB Logistics suit base scan range upped to 30m Assault suit base profile changed to 45dB Commando suit base profile changed to 50dB Sentinel base scan range upped to 18m Range Amps have been nerfed from 45% to 30% I tried to fit your values in Haerrs sheet and got negative values. Not quite sure what whent wrong but maybe you final objective can be seen in my proposal. I use Haerrs sheet because it enables do relative diferente suits. Again I think in a way its getting to the same objective with diferent values.
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:58:00 - [146] - Quote Ok. Here a new revised Haerr sheet to try and balace every suit in the game. Again, it s a try. There are some tweaks to be done, example problem with Gallogi. I don-¦t have much time myself but if you spend some time on it I think you can get a general picture. Notes: - I balanced it based only on medium range and no cloak. - Problems with Gallogi - Haven-¦t decided on Commando and Sentinel - Didn-¦t pay much attention to the cloak effect because, in my opinion the dampening effect should be scrubbed because it should not be scout exclusive since we are changing things. Have fun and please comment constructivly... link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHVEFIUjh0akg2UXM/view?usp=sharing
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5951	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:11:00 - [147] - Quote Haerr wrote: One way of encouraging Scouts to use a cloak is to have inactive cloaks give a passive bonus to dampening and larger bonus to dampening when active. Figured I'd just throw it out there. Edit: So instead of attaching the dampener bonus to one scout or another it is given to any scout who fits a cloak. At this point I would prefer the opposite and get rid of the cloak profile reduction so I am not forced to even use them. I find them to be more of a liability now. Especially considering I get the damn cloak delay even when switching from an inactive cloak. The Telling Truth wrote: Unless this proposal shakes up scout from always having the best starting point in precision vs mediums and allows a context for mediums to damp up from scouts this will do nothing to change the current meta of scouts beating every suit I own except my heavy suit and only that has a chance when i'm in a group of people watching my back. e-war with a few changes {scouts needing less damps to get under focused and fixing the 360 scans} was a much better system pre 1.8. The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen. If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers. Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps. It is ONLY when you get to scouts with 2 Complex PEs that you begin to have a problem, as at that point Medium Frames can't beat Amarr scans, BUT you have to consider that Amarr are sacrificing all their High Slots to get this advantage AND that this is their role! Caldari and Minamatar with 2 Complex Precision Enhancers can STILL be beaten with 3 Complex Dampeners. Gallente scans can STILL be beaten, but you have to sacrifice 5 slots for Complex Dampeners to do so, there again Gallente are sacrificing ALL THEIR HIGH SLOTS, and you can STILL beat their scans!! It is ONLY when Caldari and Minmatar sacrifice ALL their High Slots that you cannot beat their scans! Even then, if tied precision/dampening went to the dampener instead of the scanner you could beat them! TL;DR wrote: There is plenty of room for Medium Frames in the EWAR picture as it currently stands. Simply changing the mechanics such that scanner/dampener ties favored the dampener and not the scanner would go a long way towards increasing the flexibility for EWAR under the current system. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13298	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:33:00 - [148] - Quote Question to Rattati: Will adding more rings reduce performance or something? I think a bit of fine tuning with say, 5 rings, would be great. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19170	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:38:00 - [149] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen. If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers. Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps. It is not even remotely reasonable to demand that someone spend 4 low slots on complex modules to counter the effect of a single bonused module. These are obscene module counts that you are suggesting to counter minor investments by scouts. 4 complex dampeners is utterly crippling to any medium frame - 1 precision enhancer is not. If an Amarr scout is required to throw on just one precision enhancer and then medframes are obligated to spend 4 modules to evade it, the medframes are not going to spend the modules to evade it. To suggest that they would is absurd. That Amarr scout can then comfortably out-tank any medframe stupid enough to try evading scout scans, while maintaining huge EWAR advantages and all the other wonders that scout suits confer. Quote: It is ONLY when you get to scouts with 2 Complex PEs that you begin to have a problem, 'Begin' to have a problem? Quote: as at that point Medium Frames can't beat Amarr scans, BUT you have to consider that Amarr are sacrificing all their High Slots to get this advantage AND that this is their role! Caldari and Minamatar with 2 Complex Precision Enhancers can STILL be beaten with 3 Complex Dampeners. Gallente scans can STILL be beaten, but you have to sacrifice 5 slots for Complex Dampeners to do so, there again Gallente are sacrificing ALL THEIR HIGH SLOTS, and you can STILL beat their scans!! It is ONLY when Caldari and Minmatar sacrifice ALL their High Slots that you cannot beat their scans! Even then, if tied precision/dampening went to the dampener instead of the scanner you could beat them! Oh no, someone is sacrificing two high slots! That's 'ALL THEIR HIGH SLOTS' and you can still beat their scans... If you're mad enough to fit five low slot modules. How can you possibly claim that medframes can compete on the EWAR scene with such utterly mad numbers? Nobody is going to fit that many damps. Nobody. As a scout, you already complain about the crippling effects of being forced to fit two or more dampeners, but you think that fitting five isn't crippling? Quote: TL;DR wrote: There is plenty of room for Medium Frames in the EWAR picture as it currently stands. Simply changing the mechanics such that scanner/dampener ties favored the dampener and not the scanner would go a long way towards increasing the flexibility for EWAR under the current system. No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
XxVEXESxX 63	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:46:00 - [150] - Quote Lets get numbers on penalties for plates and shields then will say this is okay. Great job on the change. Looks promising once we get the meta down. PSN: XxVEXESxX Minmatar loyalist MK.0 A/C/L

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5952	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:49:00 - [151] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment. That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing. They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so. Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so! Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13299	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:00:00 - [152] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment. That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing. They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so. Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so! Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. The rest, in order to use their precision, MUST remain uncloaked, and therefore scanable. If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP. Except you sacrifice 200HP, which isn't the same as ABSOLUTE superiority. Not to mention you have increased speed and a smaller frame that negate that HP gap. Sure, Assaults have the advantage in 1v1 standing engagement, but when you start strafing, that HP gap turns to nothing. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
13ard Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:05:00 - [153] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing. They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so. Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so! Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP. What a load of bologna All scouts aside from cal can be 100% damped. What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods? We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies.
Haerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 1952	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:13:00 - [154] - Quote Scan Table - New_EWAR - this is the full table Scan Table - New_EWAR_Slim - this is a slimmed down version that removes a lot of less interesting things and only cares about complex dampeners Provided you use google docs and enable the script that comes with the table it will be updated, sorted, and coloured automatically.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 368	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:20:00 - [155] - Quote 13ard wrote: What a load of bologna All scouts aside from cal can be 100% damped. What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods? We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies. Not sure how to parse this. To beat all scans, all Scouts except one have to run straight damps and a proto cloak.
Militia Locus Grenade Militia BPO's 45	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:27:00 - [156] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: 13ard wrote: What a load of bologna All scouts aside from cal can be 100% damped. What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods? We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies. Not sure how to parse this. To beat all scans, all Scouts except one have to run straight damps and a proto cloak. to beat all scans everyone needs only 3 damps...where you get the idea they need 3 damps and a cloak is beyond me. Straight damps? So amarr with 4 damps needs cloak as well? Lulzy this thread is going places
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 369	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:29:00 - [157] - Quote Like I said, I don't understand what your buddy above meant by 100% damped. To beat all scans (which includes GA Logi + Focused at 15dB), all Scouts excluding Gallente need to run straight damps and a proto cloak. To beat the best passives (AM Scout at 18dB), CA/MN Scouts need to run straight damps and AM Scout needs to run 3 damps.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 186	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:32:00 - [158] - Quote Haerr wrote: Scan Table - New_EWAR - this is the full table Scan Table - New_EWAR_Slim - this is a slimmed down version that removes a lot of less interesting things and only cares about complex dampeners Provided you use google docs and enable the script that comes with the table it will be updated, sorted, and coloured automatically. The community cannot thank you enough for your efforts Haerr. Thank you.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1996	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:38:00 - [159] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, When we added the additional Vehicle Awareness Circle in 1.9, a new code logic was implemented that allowed different passive scan settings. After posting the EWAR ideas thread, the community proposed using these to mimic dynamic precision falloff. I had asked for the same thing in the past, and was told it was too difficult and number intensive to do. Well, the good news is, that we have managed to do exactly this in code. I have been pretty coy about it until we properly QA'd it, but today was a success of demonstrating dropsuits of various roles, and module combinations, moving in and out of these passive ranges, demonstrating fairly dynamic behavior. The system is fairly straightforward. We define the "absolute value" of each dropsuit's Passive Scan with Precision, Profile and Range. (We have this already defined) We define one smaller circle and another larger circle using a Range modifier. We then define the Precision within these two new circles, using a Precision modifier. Done. See this simplified picture: [img]http://puu.sh/cUhwi/f10bd82636.png[/img] We retain the current meta in the middle circle where everything is as it was. At other ranges, things are quite different. In theory, we have completely moved out of the GÇ£scanned versus not scannedGÇ¥ meta and into a much changed EWAR environment, where everyone and anyone can utilize any of the EWAR modules to some extent, further reinforcing the GÇ£waves of opportunityGÇ¥ game design principle. A Sentinel trading a few lows for a few meters of very strong Precision, an Assault using a Dampener or two to get into through long and even medium range, etc. You get the picture. Now for the numbers. We are in uncharted territory, if you will, the combinations of dropsuits and modules, who scans whom, how and when. I asked our resident EWAR expert, Haerr to setup a dynamic spreadsheet where the final numbers can be browsed, with the exact number of complex modules needed to evade scans at different scan radii. We donGÇÖt have those numbers nailed down yet, but we have the framework to discuss them here. In this spreadsheet we have some preliminary numbers to play with. Those can and will be changed. There may be other changes that are deemed necessary, such as Scout Skills (Amarr, Caldari, Gallente), Dropsuit Skills (all 3) or even Modules (looking at you mr. Amplifier). This is all, we believe, for the greater good of DUST 514. The CPM has called for it, the Community has called for it and CCP has wanted it for a long time. LetGÇÖs discuss calmly and have a bit of fun with this. ItGÇÖs not every day a big change like this can shake up the meta. an excelent proposal... just a shame you dropped the ball on Equipment :\| [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 997	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:52:00 - [160] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment. They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so. Dude, scouts get speed boosts and cloaks as well. This preconception that scouts should easily be able to be invisible all the time at all ranges with zero drawbacks is absurd. Frankly I feel confident in saying that the game would be a lot more enjoyable if everyone passive scanned everyone else with 12-15m of each other. I guess all the shotgunning has gone to some scouts players' heads. The class is stealthy so that you can use your stealth to get a tactical advantage before you engage, and so that you can be where your opponent is not. It's not so that you can sneak up to within 2 inches of someone, off them with a shotgun, and run away without their having a chance of spotting you. That's not gameplay, nor skill. If you can't use your invisibility on the map to get into a good position at 15m and then take advantage, then you probably just shouldn't be playing scout. Should scouts have an EWAR advantage? I think that's fair. Should scouts be the only viable EWAR class (essentially what gets suggested over and over)? No. Should EWAR grant infinite invisibility? Also no. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4716	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:52:00 - [161] - Quote 13ard wrote: What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods? We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies. This can't really be overstated. 1.8 made it scout 514 unless you blob heavies. Assaults can get by in pubs but they are lol in a competitive environment when you aren't facing blueberries. I couldn't agree more with that assessment. Compare that to 1.7 where scouts did not have cloaks, the meta on precision (and mediums were participants in the e-war game) and more...and scouts in the competitive scene were VERY much viable and had a critical role. The gal logi focused meta should replace the meta of focused scanners in 1.7 and it SHOULD take you three damps to get below it (or 2 complex and a basic or cloak IMO for gal) because of the HUGE disadvantages a focused has. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5958	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:56:00 - [162] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: 13ard wrote: What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods? We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies. This can't really be overstated. 1.8 made it scout 514 unless you blob heavies. Assaults can get by in pubs but they are lol in a competitive environment when you aren't facing blueberries. I couldn't agree more with that assessment. Compare that to 1.7 where scouts did not have cloaks, the meta on precision (and mediums were participants in the e-war game) and more...and scouts in the competitive scene were VERY much viable and had a critical role. The gal logi focused meta should replace the meta of focused scanners in 1.7 and it SHOULD take you three damps to get below it (or 2 complex and a basic or cloak IMO for gal) because of the HUGE disadvantages a focused has. I apologize in advance if you already answered these and I missed it. 1) What do the Amarr (Precision) and Caldari (Range) get for sacrificing their current roles? 2) What sacrifices will the Medium Frames make to get this new bonus? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 369	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:58:00 - [163] - Quote @ Zatara Rought Scouts post-1.8 were certainly overpowered. But what's your basis for claiming that pre-1.8 scouts were VERY much viable?
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19175	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:59:00 - [164] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment. That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing. They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so. It was your own assertion that medframes could compete with EWAR, not mine. I haven't said a word about whether they should be able to or not - but your assertion that medframes can compete with scout EWAR is blatantly wrong. Quote: Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so! Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. The rest, in order to use their precision, MUST remain uncloaked, and therefore scanable. If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP. Let's talk about those perceived HP discrepancies. Our scanner will be an Amarr scout with two precision enhancers. For this hypothetical scenario, we'll use a Galscout. Naturally, to evade our scanner, our Galscout will be fully dampened and equipped with a cloak. It only actually needs the cloak to evade short scans, but we'll just ignore that for now. This leaves the Galscout free to fit two complex plates and two complex extenders, leading to a total of approximately 700 EHP. Our second victim will be, say, a Galassault. To avoid the Amarr scout scans it will use 5 dampeners. It won't actually avoid them even on long but let's just consider that a minor detail for now. This enables it to fit three shield extenders, leading to a total of 750 HP. Truly, a massive HP discrepancy and something crippling to the class. 50 HP is so massive we'll just ignore the smaller hitbox of the Galscout, the superior passive scans of the Galscout helping it with other threats, the fact that the Galassault still can't actually evade that scan, the quicker shield recovery of the Galscout, the better equipment flexibility should it choose to forgo the probably unnecessary cloak, etc etc. Also, the Amarr scout can happily tank up while running around with these scans. Before you turn around in indignation again and claim that I am suggesting scouts should be terrible at EWAR or something, let me remind you what I am proving here. Here is a direct quote from you: One Eyed King wrote: There is plenty of room for Medium Frames in the EWAR picture as it currently stands. You are wrong. Medium frames cannot compete with scout EWAR. Whether they should or not is irrelevant - stating that they presently can is simply untrue. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4720	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:07:00 - [165] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Zatara Rought Scouts post-1.8 are certainly overpowered. But what's your basis for claiming that pre-1.8 scouts were VERY much viable? Without going into a much more detailed post... Because in the most competitive PC matches...3-4 scouts were used on either side. When team composition was being determined...where NOW the question is "do we have enough scouts and heavies?" the question then was "do we have enough heavies?" "who we have enough logi's?" "do we have enough scouts?" Scouts were an integral part of PC meta. Now...they've been buffed to the point they are the only integral part of any PC team aside from heavies. BTW FTFY B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4720	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:13:00 - [166] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I apologize in advance if you already answered these and I missed it. 1) What do the Amarr (Precision) and Caldari (Range) get for sacrificing their current roles? 2) What sacrifices will the Medium Frames make to get this new bonus? Umm.. Great question. Cal scout is very much welcome to retain the meta on range. but it's precision will be such that without mods it should only pick up heavies and all equips...barring investment into precision mods. Amarr scout could retain it's bonus...simply moving the bar back (again on precision) would make it as competitive in the precision game as a 1 complex precision invested assault or logi (whichever one get's the best innate base precision) So it would be covering a weakness and turning it into a mild strength...instead of it being the meta of passive scans. As for mediums giving up stuff? Logi's/Assaults in non lol blueberry environments are horrifically UP. What did scouts give up in exchange for the cloak...an extra slot...and extra equip..after 1.7? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 999	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:19:00 - [167] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Zatara Rought Scouts post-1.8 are certainly overpowered. But what's your basis for claiming that pre-1.8 scouts were VERY much viable? Without going into a much more detailed post... Because in the most competitive PC matches...3-4 scouts were used on either side. When team composition was being determined...where NOW the question is "do we have enough scouts and heavies?" the question then was "do we have enough heavies?" "who we have enough logi's?" "do we have enough scouts?" Scouts were an integral part of PC meta. Now...they've been buffed to the point they are the only integral part of any PC team aside from heavies. BTW FTFY I was the hipster scout-using FC before it was cool, so I can say the following with confidence. In a competitive environment the SPEED of the scout suit is a huge tactical advantage when applied appropriately. Scouts can quickly get into strange positions, place uplinks, and then vanish. They can get to that outside letter. And they can guard exterior letters pretty effective as well with modest EWAR bonuses, because they can hide 20+m away from an objective and then pop out of hiding when someone hacks it. Most of this usage scenarios have vanished in the past year and half as these aspects of scout gameplay have been replaced with the rather bizarre mind set that scouts should be a combat-primary class, and should be able to get within sneezing distance of people without the slightest sign. The cloak has had something to do with this, but so have EWAR changes that almost completely obsoleted any scanning except scout passive scanning. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13301	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:33:00 - [168] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Zatara Rought Scouts post-1.8 are certainly overpowered. But what's your basis for claiming that pre-1.8 scouts were VERY much viable? Without going into a much more detailed post... Because in the most competitive PC matches...3-4 scouts were used on either side. When team composition was being determined...where NOW the question is "do we have enough scouts and heavies?" the question then was "do we have enough heavies?" "who we have enough logi's?" "do we have enough scouts?" Scouts were an integral part of PC meta. Now...they've been buffed to the point they are the only integral part of any PC team aside from heavies. BTW FTFY I was the hipster scout-using FC before it was cool, so I can say the following with confidence. In a competitive environment the SPEED of the scout suit is a huge tactical advantage when applied appropriately. Scouts can quickly get into strange positions, place uplinks, and then vanish. They can get to that outside letter. And they can guard exterior letters pretty effective as well with modest EWAR bonuses, because they can hide 20+m away from an objective and then pop out of hiding when someone hacks it. Most of this usage scenarios have vanished in the past year and half as these aspects of scout gameplay have been replaced with the rather bizarre mind set that scouts should be a combat-primary class, and should be able to get within sneezing distance of people without the slightest sign. The cloak has had something to do with this, but so have EWAR changes that almost completely obsoleted any scanning except scout passive scanning. Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4721	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:39:00 - [169] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much. I honestly don't think so. And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war. We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5961	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:56:00 - [170] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I apologize in advance if you already answered these and I missed it. 1) What do the Amarr (Precision) and Caldari (Range) get for sacrificing their current roles? 2) What sacrifices will the Medium Frames make to get this new bonus? Umm.. Great question. Cal scout is very much welcome to retain the meta on range. but it's precision will be such that without mods it should only pick up heavies and all equips...barring investment into precision mods. Amarr scout could retain it's bonus...simply moving the bar back (again on precision) would make it as competitive in the precision game as a 1 complex precision invested assault or logi (whichever one get's the best innate base precision) So it would be covering a weakness and turning it into a mild strength...instead of it being the meta of passive scans. As for mediums giving up stuff? Logi's/Assaults in non lol blueberry environments are horrifically UP. What did scouts give up in exchange for the cloak...an extra slot...and extra equip..after 1.7? Cal scout doesn't HAVE any bonus to precision. It gets the same as a Minja. It just has the ability to use 4 High Slots that the other suits don't posess. Where would you move the bar back to? If they get to keep their bonus, and yet Medium frames can have superior precision, you simply make them Assault Lite. Given the high value of HP, and their having inferior HP to Assaults, what incentive would anyone have to use an Amarr scout? I believe that the equipment changes mentioned will go a long way to making them the best support role again (without having to change EWAR meta). Also, there is plenty of room to reduce scout regen, particularly with shields, and make sure that Assaults have superior regen. This would also be a buff to that need not nerf EWAR. It s not that I think Medium frames are fine, its just that I don't believe changing EWAR roles to be an answer. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5961	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:58:00 - [171] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much. I honestly don't think so. And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war. We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content. I personally don't care for where the cloak is right now. As far as I am concerned, you can reduce the fitting costs on it such that everyone can fit it the same way a scout can. Let them run around with it and see how over rated it is now. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4725	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:00:00 - [172] - Quote post is having issues. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5961	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:04:00 - [173] - Quote There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14786	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:06:00 - [174] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much. I honestly don't think so. And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war. We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content. Has incentivising the Cloak as a Tactical tool as opposed to a Short Range Weapons Delivery System been discussed. Things like for example -Reducing mobility while cloaked? - Stationary Cloaking only? -Perhaps not even a Visual cloak but an EWAR clock that knocks your scan profile off of the map. I only suggest it, admittedly knowing little about scouts, so that the cloak remains as a useful and thematic tool for the role while impressing on scouts its importance/usefulness without conveying too many benefits. I mean it is one of the (essentially speaking) only class specific modules in the game right now. "The moment passed in thunder and calamitous intent and yet no order was given to retreat or give their ground"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5961	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:10:00 - [175] - Quote There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4727	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:14:00 - [176] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much. I honestly don't think so. And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war. We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content. Has incentivising the Cloak as a Tactical tool as opposed to a Short Range Weapons Delivery System been discussed. Things like for example -Reducing mobility while cloaked? - Stationary Cloaking only? -Perhaps not even a Visual cloak but an EWAR clock that knocks your scan profile off of the map. I only suggest it, admittedly knowing little about scouts, so that the cloak remains as a useful and thematic tool for the role while impressing on scouts its importance/usefulness without conveying too many benefits. I mean it is one of the (essentially speaking) only class specific modules in the game right now. Personally I'd prefer to give the cloak back it's 90 second duration at proto and make it so that the current visual effect obtained from standing still was consistent the entire time even when sprinting...but in exchange you needed to wait 2-3 seconds after decloaking (fix firing from cloak and the currently messed up decloak sound delay) and a delay to recloak of like 5 seconds after firing or other 'offensive' actions. So the cloak is intended for recon and insertion. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 382	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:18:00 - [177] - Quote True Adamance wrote: More cloak nerfs Problem: 600+ HP "Assault Lite" Scouts are OP. Complaint: Assault Lite are out-assaulting Assault. Solution: Nerf cloak and remove Scout scans. Outcome: Problem Scouts are unaffected; all other Scouts are rendered less effective.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14791	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:20:00 - [178] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: True Adamance wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much. I honestly don't think so. And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war. We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content. Has incentivising the Cloak as a Tactical tool as opposed to a Short Range Weapons Delivery System been discussed. Things like for example -Reducing mobility while cloaked? - Stationary Cloaking only? -Perhaps not even a Visual cloak but an EWAR clock that knocks your scan profile off of the map. I only suggest it, admittedly knowing little about scouts, so that the cloak remains as a useful and thematic tool for the role while impressing on scouts its importance/usefulness without conveying too many benefits. I mean it is one of the (essentially speaking) only class specific modules in the game right now. Personally I'd prefer to give the cloak back it's 90 second duration at proto and make it so that the current visual effect obtained from standing still was consistent the entire time even when sprinting...but in exchange you needed to wait 2-3 seconds after decloaking (fix firing from cloak and the currently messed up decloak sound delay) and a delay to recloak of like 5 seconds after firing or other 'offensive' actions. So the cloak is intended for recon and insertion. Consequently the opposite could be done in say 10-15 second visual cloak pulses, with X second down time with the idea to move from cover to cover rather than move across open steppes. "The moment passed in thunder and calamitous intent and yet no order was given to retreat or give their ground"
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4727	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:23:00 - [179] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: True Adamance wrote: More cloak nerfs Problem: 600+ HP "Assault Lite" Scouts are OP. Complaint: Assault Lite are out-assaulting Assault. Solution: Nerf cloak and remove Scout scans. Outcome: Problem Scouts are unaffected; all other Scouts are rendered less effective. See...this is where you're missing the point.. It's not 600 ehp tanky scouts owning everything in PC as the number 2 infantry killer behind HMG. It's invisible shotgun scouts....with minimal mod tank ehp. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 385	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:28:00 - [180] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: True Adamance wrote: More cloak nerfs Problem: 600+ HP "Assault Lite" Scouts are OP. Complaint: Assault Lite are out-assaulting Assault. Solution: Nerf cloak and remove Scout scans. Outcome: Problem Scouts are unaffected; all other Scouts are rendered less effective. See...this is where you're missing the point.. It's not 600 ehp tanky scouts owning everything in PC as the number 2 infantry killer behind HMG. It's invisible shotgun scouts....with minimal mod tank ehp. The only minimal HP Shotgun Scouts I've seen in PC are the ones I've OHK'd. The very best Shotgun Scouts I've seen in PC (Marauder, Roner, Fusion) all stacked plates. I personally prefer a Gal w/2 damps, 2 plates and 2 extenders, and that's way more than "minimal HP" in my book. All anecdotal, I know. So is the quote above based upon actual data, or is it based on your personal observation/expectation/etc? My point is, adding drawbacks to HP modules would shake the very foundation of the PC shotgun scout. By my math, at least. Nerfing my passive scans or cloak, on the other hand, would have no affect whatsover on my SG fits. That'd only slam my non-combat-oriented Amarr Scout loadouts.

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4730	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:39:00 - [181] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: The only minimal HP Shotgun Scouts I've seen in PC are the ones I've OHK'd. The very best Shotgun Scouts I've seen in PC (Marauder, Roner, Fusion) all stacked plates. I personally prefer a Gal w/2 damps, 2 plates and 2 extenders, and that's way than "minimal HP" in my book. All anecdotal, I know. So is the quote above based upon actual data, or is it based on your personal observation/expectation/etc? Fusion and Marauder did not stack plates...lol Marauder ran a damp, a repair mod, a kin kat, and a plate. that I know for sure. Because he posted it in the war room. Fusion stacking plates? lol, no. At least...not currently. Last i checked he ran 2 damps a kin kat and a reactive. Frost Kitty runs 2 reactive afaik and 1 damp and 1 kin kat...but he pubs i'm sure he uses 2 damps in PC. Point is...no they aren't brick tanked scouts suits. It's quick, invis/damped, kin katted, shotgun scouts. Not 'assault lite's' i can ask roner what he ran...but yeah. Nerfing the scout into having worse innate precision (and this is ALL dependent on mediums being buffed into having a chance at dampening *not the meta) along with fixing the cloak (delay to fire bug...decloak sound bug...passive/active scanning negating the purpose of their profile being reduced while in cloak) would do wonders. We need to recognize the issue...we are in scout 514...and it isn't scout 514 because brick tank lol scouts with AR's. It's 500 (around) ehp scouts zipping around with a proto cloak on NEVER having the disadvantage of being detected until they are shooting 2 shotgun blasts into someone's back before they can react. The scout was not infinitely far from being balanced in 1.7...it wasn't horrendously UP. Scouts were in a better position in 1.7 competitively than assaults and logi's are in 1.8. If you were to pull the participation rates in PC for scouts in 1.7 vs the assaults in 1.8...would you be surprised to know that scouts were used more widely? I mean roner and marauder dropped 20 bombs like nobodies business. I know you're angry and think this is all propaganda but seriously! B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 385	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:58:00 - [182] - Quote Marauder and Roner ran plates and kincats; they didn't even bother with damps. Competitive shotgun scouts running under 500HP is news to me. That's OHK range if pitted against another shotgunner. Sounds like it'd be uncommon, but who knows? (I'll bet the data knows). If you're right, you're right. But right or wrong, we're still nerfing A in response to B. In what way would nerfing Scout Scans affect the potency of a lightly armored and dampened shotgun scout? He still sees what whoever's running recon sees.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4730	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:17:00 - [183] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Marauder and Roner ran plates and kincats; they didn't even bother with damps. Lol. Competitive shotgun scouts running under 500HP is news to me. That's OHK range if pitted against another shotgunner. Sounds like it'd be uncommon, but who knows? (I'll bet the data knows). If you're right, you're right. But right or wrong, we're still nerfing A in response to B. In what way would nerfing Scout Scans affect the potency of a lightly armored and dampened shotgun scout? He still sees what whoever's running recon sees. I mean...i dunno how you fit your fittings...but 500 isn't that hard to get to... 3 complex shield extenders 2 complex damps 1 complex kin kat proto cloak advanced RE adv shotty adv flaylock and i'm at 430 on a min scout...the squishiest of the 4. I could trade out the kin kat for a reactive and have 500. Gal scout exacerbates this...but caldari? 450 shields and like 90 armor with 2 damps on the lows. And YES...removing precision would do nothing to scouts when not lone wolfing it...unless passive's are not shared anymore...something I am DEEPLY a beleiver in. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4730	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:25:00 - [184] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Marauder and Roner ran plates and kincats; they didn't even bother with damps. Lol. Competitive shotgun scouts running under 500HP is news to me. That's OHK range if pitted against another shotgunner. Sounds like it'd be uncommon, but who knows? (I'll bet the data knows). If you're right, you're right. But right or wrong, we're still nerfing A in response to B. We point to the shotgun scout (whether lightly or heavily plated) as our basis for a nerf to Scout Scans. In what way would nerfing Scout Scans affect the potency of a shotgun scout? He runs damps (not scans) and he still sees what whoever's running recon sees. We nerfed the wrong guy. SMH...he posted that in the barbershop. If you need more proof I can go digging. He didn't plate stack. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 386	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:29:00 - [185] - Quote If that's what the data shows you, Zatara, I'd be amazed. Unarmored, shield-tanked Scouts shotgunning in PC? I'd hazard a guess that 1st place Shotgun Scout award goes to GalScouts running > 500HP. And of that 500, most of it will be armor. Not because Gallente, but because Shotgun. But who knows?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 386	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:30:00 - [186] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Marauder and Roner ran plates and kincats; they didn't even bother with damps. Lol. Competitive shotgun scouts running under 500HP is news to me. That's OHK range if pitted against another shotgunner. Sounds like it'd be uncommon, but who knows? (I'll bet the data knows). If you're right, you're right. But right or wrong, we're still nerfing A in response to B. We point to the shotgun scout (whether lightly or heavily plated) as our basis for a nerf to Scout Scans. In what way would nerfing Scout Scans affect the potency of a shotgun scout? He runs damps (not scans) and he still sees what whoever's running recon sees. We nerfed the wrong guy. SMH...he posted that in the barbershop. If you need more proof I can go digging. He didn't plate stack. Right. Because Marauder ran basic gear in PC.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4731	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:34:00 - [187] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Marauder and Roner ran plates and kincats; they didn't even bother with damps. Lol. Competitive shotgun scouts running under 500HP is news to me. That's OHK range if pitted against another shotgunner. Sounds like it'd be uncommon, but who knows? (I'll bet the data knows). If you're right, you're right. But right or wrong, we're still nerfing A in response to B. We point to the shotgun scout (whether lightly or heavily plated) as our basis for a nerf to Scout Scans. In what way would nerfing Scout Scans affect the potency of a shotgun scout? He runs damps (not scans) and he still sees what whoever's running recon sees. We nerfed the wrong guy. SMH...he posted that in the barbershop. If you need more proof I can go digging. He didn't plate stack. Right. Because Marauder ran basic gear in PC. I asked if you needed more. Here's Roner...looking for marauder. Edit: Found it! So he either ran 2 plates 2 repairers...or 1 plate 1 damp 2 repair. And he aimed for about 560 ehp. Sounds about like what the gal is pulling today. And the Cal right behind it...and the Min behind that. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7268	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:39:00 - [188] - Quote Originally, CCP wanted players to be able to shoot while cloaked (I have a quote that I can link if you guys need proof) and the community shot that down in a hurry. What we got as a result was... Well, being able to shoot before the de-cloak animation even finished. It's been said several times that the Shotgun isn't what's over-powered and it's not, it was hardly ever changed since it's inception. What did change however is the Scouts, more importantly the implementation of the cloaking device. Which isn't bad, but the way the CPM 0 wanted the cloaking device to work was for movement from point a to point b. Not predator / 'gotcha' kills. Rightfully so as the entire gameplay mechanic is **** poor, annoying, and silly. Cloaking is also a nice subject of debate. Judge Rhadamanthus (sp?) brought up the Toupee Fallacy: "The arguer claims that they can always recognize when something is present. This is likely a fallacy because the arguer is not aware of all of the times that he/she did not recognize it." The same applies to cloaking. How could you ever know of the times you -DID NOT- see a cloaked scout if the entire premise is that you did not see them? That being said, we have to consider the factor that the cloaking device was, by the CPM 0 standards, meant for movement and not combat. So the exact contradiction is that cloaking devices are more powerful, visually, when standing still as opposed to moving. I think we could honestly reverse that to discourage camping by making them glow a brighter blue shade (more obvious) when holding still and the cloak being more powerful (perfect invisibility) when moving. Now, hold your horses because I realize that this sounds contrary to a 'nerf' toward Scouts. The reason being for this change would be to open up more opportunities to hit the de-cloak harshly. Talking several seconds before the user can pull their weapon and begin firing. This way, we encourage the cloaking device for low-profile movement while at the same time encouraging more critical thinking on the Scout's behalf. It would encourage players to want to decloak -BEFORE- entering combat zones instead of making themselves vulnerable when they're already within the optimal range of their shotgun. Or as Arkena Wyrnspire put it, "the spleen removal zone". Just my 0.02 ISK Long-Term Roadmap This Player is Against Proto BPOs
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5465	Posted - 2014.11.19 02:00:00 - [189] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Originally, CCP wanted players to be able to shoot while cloaked (I have a quote that I can link if you guys need proof) and the community shot that down in a hurry. What we got as a result was... Well, being able to shoot before the de-cloak animation even finished. It's been said several times that the Shotgun isn't what's over-powered and it's not, it was hardly ever changed since it's inception. What did change however is the Scouts, more importantly the implementation of the cloaking device. Which isn't bad, but the way the CPM 0 wanted the cloaking device to work was for movement from point a to point b. Not predator / 'gotcha' kills. Rightfully so as the entire gameplay mechanic is **** poor, annoying, and silly. Cloaking is also a nice subject of debate. Judge Rhadamanthus (sp?) brought up the Toupee Fallacy: "The arguer claims that they can always recognize when something is present. This is likely a fallacy because the arguer is not aware of all of the times that he/she did not recognize it." The same applies to cloaking. How could you ever know of the times you -DID NOT- see a cloaked scout if the entire premise is that you did not see them? That being said, we have to consider the factor that the cloaking device was, by the CPM 0 standards, meant for movement and not combat. So the exact contradiction is that cloaking devices are more powerful, visually, when standing still as opposed to moving. I think we could honestly reverse that to discourage camping by making them glow a brighter blue shade (more obvious) when holding still and the cloak being more powerful (perfect invisibility) when moving. Now, hold your horses because I realize that this sounds contrary to a 'nerf' toward Scouts. The reason being for this change would be to open up more opportunities to hit the de-cloak harshly. Talking several seconds before the user can pull their weapon and begin firing. This way, we encourage the cloaking device for low-profile movement while at the same time encouraging more critical thinking on the Scout's behalf. It would encourage players to want to decloak -BEFORE- entering combat zones instead of making themselves vulnerable when they're already within the optimal range of their shotgun. Or as Arkena Wyrnspire put it, "the spleen removal zone". Just my 0.02 ISK I like this, would like to explore furtherGÇª made a thread MOAR Ladders
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 387	Posted - 2014.11.19 03:17:00 - [190] - Quote @ Zatara An Alternative Approach: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sajpeeck1ppMwz_uvW9LeXEzF2ipF4X0y2xeZf01mS0/edit?usp=sharing Rather than nerfing EWAR Scouts, why not make EWAR more accessible to MedFrames by simply buffing MedFrame EWAR? Assaults: * 10dB buff to Profile * 5dB buff to Precision * 5m buff to Range Logis: * 5dB buff to Profile * 5dB buff to Precision * 5m buff to Range

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4739	Posted - 2014.11.19 05:52:00 - [191] - Quote I need sleep. But atm I'm much more interested in cat mercs spreadsheet TBH. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0 However...If we cannot get shared passive scanning removed...it's all for nought. All the e-war changes would simply be about rebalancing for dampening...as unless you're lone wolfing the meta will inevitably involve finding the best passive precision and putting a bunch of range mods on in and keep it on a catwalk or in the most secure place...and then everyone else's passive's matter none. Removing shared passive scanning is a must... B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2002	Posted - 2014.11.19 08:23:00 - [192] - Quote Now this is the kind of substantive change to e-war that might just make non-scout & heavy frames viable once again. It will definitely require more than a little tweaking to get it just right though. Please keep us abreast of any changes to your plans on this topic as you are currently doing something that redefines dust on a fundamental level and many in the community are going to want to be involved. Now with more evil.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1647	Posted - 2014.11.19 09:45:00 - [193] - Quote finally non binary EWAR mechanic! I like.
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.19 10:42:00 - [194] - Quote Haerr wrote: Scan Table - New_EWAR - this is the full table Scan Table - New_EWAR_Slim - this is a slimmed down version that removes a lot of less interesting things and only cares about complex dampeners Provided you use google docs and enable the script that comes with the table it will be updated, sorted, and coloured automatically. There seems to be a difference between the slim and full sheets In one, a assault with 2 complex prec. corresponds to galscout with 1 complex damp In thefull sheet the same corresponds to galscout with 1 basic damp. I am going to work with the full, because I think an assault with 2 complex prec. should already see a galscout or something arround that...
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:59:00 - [195] - Quote Haerr wrote: Scan Table - New_EWAR - this is the full table Scan Table - New_EWAR_Slim - this is a slimmed down version that removes a lot of less interesting things and only cares about complex dampeners Provided you use google docs and enable the script that comes with the table it will be updated, sorted, and coloured automatically. I have been tweaking things. Post my sheet later at night. I had only one way to do things and that was forget the cloak. If we want e-war across the board for all suits, I had to start without it. Especially with the new range variation proposal this is even more significant. The cloak bonus if has to exist cannot be related to e-war, and, frankly don-¦t know what to do with it still. Maybe when I upload the sheet I-¦ll have something to propose if possible. Maybe forget all cloak bonuses and keep it simple, the better the cloak, the longer you-¦re cloaked....
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 195	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:25:00 - [196] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much. I honestly don't think so. And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war. We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content. Has incentivising the Cloak as a Tactical tool as opposed to a Short Range Weapons Delivery System been discussed. Things like for example -Reducing mobility while cloaked? - Stationary Cloaking only? -Perhaps not even a Visual cloak but an EWAR clock that knocks your scan profile off of the map. I only suggest it, admittedly knowing little about scouts, so that the cloak remains as a useful and thematic tool for the role while impressing on scouts its importance/usefulness without conveying too many benefits. I mean it is one of the (essentially speaking) only class specific modules in the game right now. I would LOVE a cloak with less mobility and significantly less shimmer when moving.
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:52:00 - [197] - Quote Here goes the latest revision; https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHZHlUa3BhRW5IV3c/view?usp=sharing The changes are in the input tab in blue. Basic changes are: - Good bye cloak (for now) - Change damp values - Change Scan Radius Modifier and scan precision modifier - Changes to profiles and ranges Basically, just tried to level it out between everybody. I admit it-¦s not perfect but it-¦s a work in progress. If you zoom out, you get the general picture of what I think is the objective. A scale. As to the cloak, I have no ideias but to scrap the bonus. This was need to balance. I think the main problem with this all is that a balance is really hard using precision and dampening value ranges between 10 and 60, you end up getting repeting values on what should be a larger scale, so then all the bonuses have little ou too much effect to really balance this all out in the end. Another thing to factor in is slot configuration and respective race bonuses. There are case that are impossible ou practically impratical. It-¦s not the best, just a way of trying...
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 249	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:35:00 - [198] - Quote I've been testing all day and even within a few m of me uplinks and players do not appear on my cal and gal scouts passive scans. I have max ewar skills but still my range is a lot smaller than I expect it was. Did you do a stealth nerf to ewar range? Right now uplinks go shady about 5m from m and 15 m away assaults are invisible to my cal scout NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4985	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:50:00 - [199] - Quote This idea gained traction in another thread, so I am reposting here: What if the directional Arrow only displayed on the inner 25% short range circle? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 490	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:51:00 - [200] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: This idea gained traction in another thread, so I am reposting here: What if the directional Arrow only displayed on the inner 25% short range circle? 100% in favor.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4991	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:18:00 - [201] - Quote Also, make the size of the Dot proportional to the Profile of the suit. This would allow Assault suits to avoid Sentinels, or engage Sentinels in a more tactical manner. It would also give Sentinels a reason to use Dampener Modules, to alter their signature on the Radar map to look like Assault suits. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 199	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:30:00 - [202] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Also, make the size of the Dot proportional to the Profile of the suit. This would allow Assault suits to avoid Sentinels, or engage Sentinels in a more tactical manner. It would also give Sentinels a reason to use Dampener Modules, to alter their signature on the Radar map to look like Assault suits. Brilliant.
Haerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 1971	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:49:00 - [203] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Also, make the size of the Dot proportional to the Profile of the suit. This would allow Assault suits to avoid Sentinels, or engage Sentinels in a more tactical manner. It would also give Sentinels a reason to use Dampener Modules, to alter their signature on the Radar map to look like Assault suits. Awesome! +1 I ran over Jebus McKing in FW The game said -50WP But it felt like +over 9000 WP
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 710	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:18:00 - [204] - Quote I completely agree with Fox's statement. Zatara previously mentioned that, among other reasons, he liked the cloak because it gave players an active means of changing their scan profile. I believe that Fox's change would be the next best thing for other suits, allowing them to dynamically (On a suit-to-suit basis) change their scan profile. However, I do think that one addition needs to be made: We should have combat actions like shooting and sprinting increase your scanning profile and dot size, and passive actions like crouching or standing still decrease your scanning profile and dot size. I like the idea of a Heavy deceiving other players into thinking it is a medium suit by wearing dampeners. However, I would also like an Assault to deceive other players into thinking it was a heavy because it did actions to enlarge its dot size Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1014	Posted - 2014.11.21 04:23:00 - [205] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I completely agree with Fox's statement. Zatara previously mentioned that, among other reasons, he liked the cloak because it gave players an active means of changing their scan profile. I believe that Fox's change would be the next best thing for other suits, allowing them to dynamically (On a suit-to-suit basis) change their scan profile. However, I do think that one addition needs to be made: We should have combat actions like shooting and sprinting increase your scanning profile and dot size, and passive actions like crouching or standing still decrease your scanning profile and dot size. I like the idea of a Heavy deceiving other players into thinking it is a medium suit by wearing dampeners. However, I would also like an Assault to deceive other players into thinking it was a heavy because it did actions to enlarge its dot size Yes, this would be the actually logical way to implement this. But y'know resource constraints. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:33:00 - [206] - Quote So, have we hit the point in here where base range on mediums and heavies gets significantly buffed yet? Anybody who has actually run ewar knows prec without range is almost worthless and seeing a guy who moves @ 8m/s in the last 10 m for a second = not much help. If its been covered, just say, I haven't read through the entire thread Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 536	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:10:00 - [207] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: So, have we hit the point in here where base range on mediums and heavies gets significantly buffed yet? Anybody who has actually run ewar knows prec without range is almost worthless and seeing a guy who moves @ 8m/s in the last 10 m for a second = not much help. If its been covered, just say, I haven't read through the entire thread lol, nothing? Was just asking.... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 873	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:26:00 - [208] - Quote Ok, in the last few days I have talked and thought about various ways we could try and make the EWAR system work. It really is hard to find a balance between scouts dedicating their fits to being properly stealthy getting rewarded for doing so and medium frames being able to have a chance at actually participating in EWAR. As we stand now, even with the proposed changes, scouts will continue to easily, with practically no sacrifices, beat any and all attempts from medium frames at participating in the EWAR game. There have been many interesting propositions in this thread for making EWAR more dynamic, including things like actions directly affecting profile. But seems we are, for now, due to technical imitations stuck with a more static system. I have a general outline in my head that I have been toying with, that I find very appealing, though I know most people who even bother to read this will probably disagree with it. But hey, loads of people have made all sorts of suggestions here, so why not. First of all, let's keep the concentric circle system, with the reduced scan precision at longest ranges. But instead of just slightly higher precision in the smallest circle, I propose (as have some others) that everything, no matter the profile, is visible in the short range. I think this is not an inconvenience to even the stealthiest of playstyles, because no matter how many dampeners you stack on, you still have to use your brains to decide on direction and timing of approaches, use situational awareness and speed to maximum effect, take advantage of windows of opportunity created by the actions of other players. And the short range we are talking about here is quite short, distances a scout can close almost instantaneously. Now, you might say, why would anyone use precision enhancers if everything is can be scanned regardless? Well, precision enhancers would still work to improve your passive scans at medium to long range, and can serve to give you an advance warning about danger heading your way. So, they'd still be just as useful. On the other hand, what does it matter if your scans show you a scout that's about to remove your spleen when they are already within the very short scan range of the inmost circle? Well, it might not, in some cases. But I do think that it may give one a fighting chance, due to the split second of being able to start to react, turn, dodge, whatever when that red blip shows up on your radar instead of only after the scout in question is already happily running off with your kidneys in hand, on his way to find a black market trader for clone mercenary organs... Now, ranges. I think the current base ranges for medium frames (and possibly heavies, however I am not so much concerned about them, as they do have their massive HP and insanely high dps as defences :P) need to be improved on. 3.something meter short range scans are meaningless, both in Rattati's system, and in my theoretical one. I propose assaults and logis both should have a BASE range somewhere around 20m (at the very least over 15m), just so their short scan radius reaches a useful distance... Of course scout base ranges could also be adjusted upwards to retain their superiority to medium frames in this aspect. Though I do also see that if we increase base ranges too much, range amplifier modules may become ridiculous at their current percentages, but they could be adjusted to work with longer base ranges. My aim with this is that a medium frame with max skills would have a passive short range scan of at least about 7-8m. Well within shotgun range, barely an eyeblink for a nova knifer to close in. So, how does this help medium frame participation in EWAR? Well, I personally don't think medium frames can or should compete with scouts in stealth... Assaults can choose to dampen to try and hide themselves from active scanners/other mediums/heavies etc. But they don't need to reach the levels of dampening a scout can. But mediums should have a decent chance at detecting scouts, yes, even dampened ones. And the numbers we have seen really don't include a decent chance for that, 1 or 2 dampeners would be enough to competely hide a scout from any scans a medium frame is capable of. So, sacrificing slots for enhancers seems rather pointless. But if a medium frame can see a scout in their short range scans, the dynamic becomes less one-sided. Now everyone can choose to increase their effectiveness against stealthy players by increasing their scan range... as increased scan range would also slightly increase the radius of the short range scans. Now, I happen to think that shared passive scans would break this system... But I also think that shared passive scans already break the game, a little. I would be happy to see them go, and make EWAR a little more interesting at the same time. I know I'm not going into a lot of detail as far as numbers are concerned, and I don't have a spreadsheet to show my work, but I don't see the point for something that is entirely just a throw away idea :) Well, anyway, essay over, my other 0.02isk, whatever. Tell me I'm an idiot. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:47:00 - [209] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Ok, in the last few days I have talked and thought about various ways we could try and make the EWAR system work. It really is hard to find a balance between scouts dedicating their fits to being properly stealthy getting rewarded for doing so and medium frames being able to have a chance at actually participating in EWAR. As we stand now, even with the proposed changes, scouts will continue to easily, with practically no effort, beat any and all attempts from medium frames at participating in the EWAR game. There have been many interesting propositions in this thread for making EWAR more dynamic, including things like actions directly affecting profile. But seems we are, for now, due to technical imitations stuck with a more static system. I have a general outline in my head that I have been toying with, that I find very appealing, though I know most people who even bother to read this will probably disagree with it. But hey, loads of people have made all sorts of suggestions here, so why not. First of all, let's keep the concentric circle system, with the reduced scan precision at longest ranges. But instead of just slightly higher precision in the smallest circle, I propose (as have some others) that everything, no matter the profile, is visible in the short range. I think this is not an inconvenience to even the stealthiest of playstyles, because no matter how many dampeners you stack on, you still have to use your brains to decide on direction and timing of approaches, use situational awareness and speed to maximum effect, take advantage of windows of opportunity created by the actions of other players. And the short range we are talking about here is quite short, distances a scout can close almost instantaneously. Now, you might say, why would anyone use precision enhancers if everything is can be scanned regardless? Well, precision enhancers would still work to improve your passive scans at medium to long range, and can serve to give you an advance warning about danger heading your way. So, they'd still be just as useful. On the other hand, what does it matter if your scans show you a scout that's about to remove your spleen when they are already within the very short scan range of the inmost circle? Well, it might not, in some cases. But I do think that it may give one a fighting chance, due to the split second of being able to start to react, turn, dodge, whatever when that red blip shows up on your radar instead of only after the scout in question is already happily running off with your kidneys in hand, on his way to find a black market trader for clone mercenary organs... Now, ranges. I think the current base ranges for medium frames (and possibly heavies, however I am not so much concerned about them, as they do have their massive HP and insanely high dps as defences :P) need to be improved on. 3.something meter short range scans are meaningless, both in Rattati's system, and in my theoretical one. I propose assaults and logis both should have a BASE range somewhere around 20m (at the very least over 15m), just so their short scan radius reaches a useful distance... Of course scout base ranges could also be adjusted upwards to retain their superiority to medium frames in this aspect. Though I do also see that if we increase base ranges too much, range amplifier modules may become ridiculous at their current percentages, but they could be adjusted to work with longer base ranges. My aim with this is that a medium frame with max skills would have a passive short range scan of at least about 7-8m. Well within shotgun range, barely an eyeblink for a nova knifer to close in. So, how does this help medium frame participation in EWAR? Well, I personally don't think medium frames can or should compete with scouts in stealth... Assaults can choose to dampen to try and hide themselves from active scanners/other mediums/heavies etc. But they don't need to reach the levels of dampening a scout can. But mediums should have a decent chance at detecting scouts, yes, even dampened ones. And the numbers we have seen really don't include a decent chance for that, 1 or 2 dampeners would be enough to competely hide a scout from any scans a medium frame is capable of. So, sacrificing slots for enhancers seems rather pointless. But if a medium frame can see a scout in their short range scans, the dynamic becomes less one-sided. Now everyone can choose to increase their effectiveness against stealthy players by increasing their scan range... as increased scan range would also slightly increase the radius of the short range scans. Now, I happen to think that shared passive scans would break this system... But I also think that shared passive scans already break the game, a little. I would be happy to see them go, and make EWAR a little more interesting at the same time. I know I'm not going into a lot of detail as far as numbers are concerned, and I don't have a spreadsheet to show my work, but I don't see the point for something that is entirely just a throw away idea :) Well, anyway, essay over, my other 0.02isk, whatever. Tell me I'm an idiot. I dig it. I'm into sharing passives, but I'm not scared of ewar OR infowar. Umm...you're an idiot? XD Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 876	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:53:00 - [210] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Umm...you're an idiot? XD Thank you Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.22 08:45:00 - [211] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: ...So, how does this help medium frame participation in EWAR? Well, I personally don't think medium frames can or should compete with scouts in stealth... Assaults can choose to dampen to try and hide themselves from active scanners/other mediums/heavies etc. But they don't need to reach the levels of dampening a scout can. But mediums should have a decent chance at detecting scouts, yes, even dampened ones. And the numbers we have seen really don't include a decent chance for that, 1 or 2 dampeners would be enough to competely hide a scout from any scans a medium frame is capable of. So, sacrificing slots for enhancers seems rather pointless. But if a medium frame can see a scout in their short range scans, the dynamic becomes less one-sided. Now everyone can choose to increase their effectiveness against stealthy players by increasing their scan range... as increased scan range would also slightly increase the radius of the short range scans. You shoukd see my proposal: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=https%3a%2f%2fdrive.google.com%2ffile%2fd%2f0ByLpG42z7QGHZHlUa3BhRW5IV3c%2fview%3fusp%3dsharing&domain=google.com and see if the ranges are what you were saying. As to the rest, you are to focused on range and precision and forget damps. And also remember slot configuration. Take the opposites, Caldari, lots of high slots means precision mods for all suits and the scouts have the range. Gallente, low slots, lots of damps and range if needed, scout have a precision bonus because of a few high slots The other two are in between. See the sheet and think on it.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 876	Posted - 2014.11.22 11:54:00 - [212] - Quote iWanderer wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: ...So, how does this help medium frame participation in EWAR? Well, I personally don't think medium frames can or should compete with scouts in stealth... Assaults can choose to dampen to try and hide themselves from active scanners/other mediums/heavies etc. But they don't need to reach the levels of dampening a scout can. But mediums should have a decent chance at detecting scouts, yes, even dampened ones. And the numbers we have seen really don't include a decent chance for that, 1 or 2 dampeners would be enough to competely hide a scout from any scans a medium frame is capable of. So, sacrificing slots for enhancers seems rather pointless. But if a medium frame can see a scout in their short range scans, the dynamic becomes less one-sided. Now everyone can choose to increase their effectiveness against stealthy players by increasing their scan range... as increased scan range would also slightly increase the radius of the short range scans. You shoukd see my proposal: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=https%3a%2f%2fdrive.google.com%2ffile%2fd%2f0ByLpG42z7QGHZHlUa3BhRW5IV3c%2fview%3fusp%3dsharing&domain=google.com and see if the ranges are what you were saying. As to the rest, you are to focused on range and precision and forget damps. And also remember slot configuration. Take the opposites, Caldari, lots of high slots means precision mods for all suits and the scouts have the range. Gallente, low slots, lots of damps and range if needed, scout have a precision bonus because of a few high slots The other two are in between. See the sheet and think on it. I think you maybe missed the point a little, I was purely talking about changes that would give medium frames a chance at EWAR, my post had nothing to do with balancing the scout class internally. And I stated that dampening, in my opinion, is not a specialty in which mediums can or should compete with scouts. The ranges I proposed were very conservative to start with, the ones in the spreadsheet Cat Merc posted are closer to what I really had in mind, though I think he balances the effect of longer base ranges by reducing the skill bonus instead of toning down the range amplifier module bonus. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4846	Posted - 2014.11.22 21:52:00 - [213] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I completely agree with Fox's statement. Zatara previously mentioned that, among other reasons, he liked the cloak because it gave players an active means of changing their scan profile. I believe that Fox's change would be the next best thing for other suits, allowing them to dynamically (On a suit-to-suit basis) change their scan profile. However, I do think that one addition needs to be made: We should have combat actions like shooting and sprinting increase your scanning profile and dot size, and passive actions like crouching or standing still decrease your scanning profile and dot size. I like the idea of a Heavy deceiving other players into thinking it is a medium suit by wearing dampeners. However, I would also like an Assault to deceive other players into thinking it was a heavy because it did actions to enlarge its dot size I have already broached this with CCP when this idea was presented. This was my first thought as well. The more ways you provide players to actively influence their profile, the better. But this only plays a factor if ultra passive scans are nerfed to have smaller ranges...or shared passive scanning killed. I have recently come to the knowledge what killing shared passive would be in terms of dev time...and am reconciled it's just NOT worth the time investment atm. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4846	Posted - 2014.11.22 21:53:00 - [214] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This idea gained traction in another thread, so I am reposting here: What if the directional Arrow only displayed on the inner 25% short range circle? 100% in favor. Also 100% in favor. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4846	Posted - 2014.11.22 21:55:00 - [215] - Quote I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0 Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.23 14:40:00 - [216] - Quote [quote=Zatara Rought]I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0[/quote I admit its interresting. Ive put the values in Haerrs sheet. There are problems, for example the pro max GalLogi sees all and thats not right for scouts. It should at least have a contestant in the same range. Thats why I use Haerrs, it covers all the possibilities. Here is Cat Mercs values in the sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM/view?usp=sharing Later I-¦ll post a tweaked version.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13354	Posted - 2014.11.23 22:13:00 - [217] - Quote iWanderer wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought]I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0[/quote I admit its interresting. Ive put the values in Haerrs sheet. There are problems, for example the pro max GalLogi sees all and thats not right for scouts. It should at least have a contestant in the same range. Thats why I use Haerrs, it covers all the possibilities. Here is Cat Mercs values in the sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM/view?usp=sharing Later I-¦ll post a tweaked version. It sees all but 4x dampened Gallente Scout. This is a very specialized and unwieldy piece of equipment (Focused scanner), put on a suit that has no other reason to exist. If you don't use a scanner, you might as well use a different Logi suit. Hence it's fitting that getting under it is extremely hard. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13354	Posted - 2014.11.23 22:14:00 - [218] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0 Zatara Rought wrote: Cet Mercs brilliant work here Zatara Rought wrote: Cet Merc Cet Merc, pls Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3554	Posted - 2014.11.24 11:31:00 - [219] - Quote Personally I think the scouts are still to hard to detect. Even if I put 4 enhancers on an Assault a Scout only needs 1 dampener to avoid me at all ranges. 4 enhancers? Not forgetting the cloak also gives a dampening bonus. If anything I think you need to up the variation in Scanning differences. Personally I think it should be the following A Sentinel can catch a Commando at Medium range A Sentinel can catch a Logisitcs at Short range A Sentinel can catch an Assault at Short range, by using 1 enhancer (no dampeners) A sentinel can catch a Scout at Short range, by using 2 enhancers (no dampeners) A Commando can catch a Sentinel at Long range A Commando can catch a Logistics at Medium range A Commando can catch an Assault at Short range A Commando can catch a Scout at Short ramge by using 1 enhancer A Logistics can catch a Sentinel at Long range A Logistics can catch a Commando at Medium range A Logistics can catch an Assault at Medium range A Logistics can catch a Scout at Short range by using 1 enhancer An Assault can catch a Sentinel at Long range An Assault can catch a Commando at Long range An Assault can catch a Logistics at Medium range An Assault can catch a Scout at Short range A Scout can catch a Sentinel/Commando at Long range A Scout can catch a Assault/Logistics at Medium range Each dampener will move you 1 detection range further away. Each Enhancer will move your opponents 1 detection range closer. As such most players will want to equip 2 dampeners to their suits. With those prioritising eHP taking 1 and those prioritising stealth taking 3. In addition you can add hybrid armour modules that act as plating and a dampener at rate of 60% eHP of standard plates and 50% of standard dampener bonus. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3554	Posted - 2014.11.24 11:35:00 - [220] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This idea gained traction in another thread, so I am reposting here: What if the directional Arrow only displayed on the inner 25% short range circle? 100% in favor. Also 100% in favor. Seconded! They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3

Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 203	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:12:00 - [221] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ...removed but wonderful words... I just want to insert into the discussion that if any suit is allowed to be 100% undetectable it will continue to result in shotgun abuse that makes the game incredibly unfun and makes assault and commando suits completely useless in highly competitive environments. A scout or logi (or assault or commando?) fitted out with detection gear should be able to see any unit within its closest precision circle, and that range needs to extend out far enough to realistically see and react to a shotgunner before they are a free kill. Also I think active scanners need to use precision enhancers to gain some of their precision, its silly that a single equipment slot can counter multiple modules/equipment slots stacking together.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4879	Posted - 2014.11.25 04:13:00 - [222] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: iWanderer wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought]I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0[/quote I admit its interresting. Ive put the values in Haerrs sheet. There are problems, for example the pro max GalLogi sees all and thats not right for scouts. It should at least have a contestant in the same range. Thats why I use Haerrs, it covers all the possibilities. Here is Cat Mercs values in the sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM/view?usp=sharing Later I-¦ll post a tweaked version. It sees all but 4x dampened Gallente Scout. This is a very specialized and unwieldy piece of equipment (Focused scanner), put on a suit that has no other reason to exist. If you don't use a scanner, you might as well use a different Logi suit. Hence it's fitting that getting under it is extremely hard. I also think for example that just because the gal scout is the only scout that could avoid such scans in the sheet does not mean that this won't further be influenced (hopefully) by other actions that scouts could take to reduce profile further...ex crouching. I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly. I agree the focused scanner on the gal logi suit...while being 14 PG...that's 5 seconds or so on 1/8 of the radius of the map. With the long cooldown time Even with 4 you can't keep "perma scans up" and even if you could keeping them up would be limited...again..by the 1/8th of the map you can see with the 45 degrees the focused covers. If it did prove to be OP i'd reduced it so that the min and amarr could be unscannable with 3 damps + proto cloak. But the focused does little beyond "keep the enemy honest" in it's current iteration. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6155	Posted - 2014.11.25 05:05:00 - [223] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: iWanderer wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought]I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0[/quote I admit its interresting. Ive put the values in Haerrs sheet. There are problems, for example the pro max GalLogi sees all and thats not right for scouts. It should at least have a contestant in the same range. Thats why I use Haerrs, it covers all the possibilities. Here is Cat Mercs values in the sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM/view?usp=sharing Later I-¦ll post a tweaked version. It sees all but 4x dampened Gallente Scout. This is a very specialized and unwieldy piece of equipment (Focused scanner), put on a suit that has no other reason to exist. If you don't use a scanner, you might as well use a different Logi suit. Hence it's fitting that getting under it is extremely hard. I also think for example that just because the gal scout is the only scout that could avoid such scans in the sheet does not mean that this won't further be influenced (hopefully) by other actions that scouts could take to reduce profile further...ex crouching. I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly. I agree the focused scanner on the gal logi suit...while being 14 PG...that's 5 seconds or so on 1/8 of the radius of the map. With the long cooldown time Even with 4 you can't keep "perma scans up" and even if you could keeping them up would be limited...again..by the 1/8th of the map you can see with the 45 degrees the focused covers. If it did prove to be OP i'd reduced it so that the min and amarr could be unscannable with 3 damps + proto cloak. But the focused does little beyond "keep the enemy honest" in it's current iteration. The problem with this is the same problem with many of the other nerfs. The Gal scout IS the problem. It is the OP suit. Not the Amarr or the Minja. The Cal has it's own separate issues. These kind of changes only increase imbalance by making Gal scouts the most viable. In what way will you ensure that these changes will actually nerf what the problem is without further eroding, and once again dismissing, the group of people dedicated to those roles? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13387	Posted - 2014.11.25 06:01:00 - [224] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: iWanderer wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought]I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0[/quote I admit its interresting. Ive put the values in Haerrs sheet. There are problems, for example the pro max GalLogi sees all and thats not right for scouts. It should at least have a contestant in the same range. Thats why I use Haerrs, it covers all the possibilities. Here is Cat Mercs values in the sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM/view?usp=sharing Later I-¦ll post a tweaked version. It sees all but 4x dampened Gallente Scout. This is a very specialized and unwieldy piece of equipment (Focused scanner), put on a suit that has no other reason to exist. If you don't use a scanner, you might as well use a different Logi suit. Hence it's fitting that getting under it is extremely hard. I also think for example that just because the gal scout is the only scout that could avoid such scans in the sheet does not mean that this won't further be influenced (hopefully) by other actions that scouts could take to reduce profile further...ex crouching. I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly. I agree the focused scanner on the gal logi suit...while being 14 PG...that's 5 seconds or so on 1/8 of the radius of the map. With the long cooldown time Even with 4 you can't keep "perma scans up" and even if you could keeping them up would be limited...again..by the 1/8th of the map you can see with the 45 degrees the focused covers. If it did prove to be OP i'd reduced it so that the min and amarr could be unscannable with 3 damps + proto cloak. But the focused does little beyond "keep the enemy honest" in it's current iteration. The problem with this is the same problem with many of the other nerfs. The Gal scout IS the problem. It is the OP suit. Not the Amarr or the Minja. The Cal has it's own separate issues. These kind of changes only increase imbalance by making Gal scouts the most viable. In what way will you ensure that these changes will actually nerf what the problem is without further eroding, and once again dismissing, the group of people dedicated to those roles? So umm, since the Gal Scout can avoid a highly specialized scan that happens every 40 or so seconds, and even then it needs to have all of its low slots fitted with dampeners, it means it's OP? What about the Cal Scout in my design being practically a walking radar with a max range of 150 meters? Mind you, the Amarr Scout can detect the Gal Scout within its short range scanners with two precision enhancers. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:15:00 - [225] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: So umm, since the Gal Scout can avoid a highly specialized scan that happens every 40 or so seconds, and even then it needs to have all of its low slots fitted with dampeners, it means it's OP? What about the Cal Scout in my design being practically a walking radar with a max range of 150 meters? Mind you, the Amarr Scout can detect the Gal Scout within its short range scanners with two precision enhancers. Heys guys. I-¦m still tweaking Cat Mercs sheet values and had to try something out because as you could see assaults and heavys had no chance in that last sheet (example, sentinel would need 2 complex damps to evade another sentinel...) Since all bonuses are percentage based, I had to use a dampening and precision scale from 1 to 200. I still have problems with the Gal Logi, its bonus needs to be scrapped and the precision values, per suit and scanner, have to be fixed or else it doesn-¦t fit well in the scale. Beacause of so many variables, I favor scrapping the cloak bonus. I can already say the result for mediums and heavys and provisional amarr/min scout values look like this: To not be seen on TACNET: Sentinel needs 1B damp versus Commando in short range Commando needs 1B damp versus Sentinel in short range (this could be tweaked so not so) Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus assault in short range Comm/Sent needs 1B damp versus assault in medium range Comm/Sent needs 1C+E damp versus Cal/Min Scout in short range Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus Cal/Min Scout in medium range Comm/Sent needs 3C damp versus Gal Scout in short range Comm/Sent needs 2C damp versus Gal Scout in medium range Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus Gal Scout in long range Comm/Sent needs 2C damp versus 2 complex precision assault in medium range Assault needs 1E damp against another assault in short range. In Medium nothing is needed Assault needs nothing against comm/sent with 1 complex precision in medium range Assault needs 1C damp against Cal/Min Scout in short range and 1E in medium Assault needs 1C damp against Gal Scout in medium range, 1E in long. 2C in short range Assault needs 1C+E damp against 2 complex precision assault Assault needs 2C damp or more against 2 complex precisions Logi Assault needs 2C+B damp against Amarr Scout in medium range, 1C in long range Assault needs 1C+E against Cal/Min Scout in medium range, 2C+1B in short range A/M Scout needs 1B damp against assault in short range, nothing in medium A/M Scout needs 1E damp against Comm/Sent in short range These are "sort of values" because of the cloak. Post the new sheet later.
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:36:00 - [226] - Quote The rest for now: A/M Scout needs 1C damp against Cal/Min Scout in short range, 1B in medium A/M Scout needs 1C damp against Assualt and Logi in short range, 1E in medium A/M Scout needs 1C+1E damp against Cal/Min Scout with 1C in short range, 1C in medium, 1E in long A/M Scout needs 3C damp against Gal Scout with 1C in short range, 1C in medium, 1E in long A/M Scout needs 2C+E damp against Assault with 3C in short range, 1C+E in medium, 1C in long A/M Scout needs 3C damp against Cal Scout with 2C in short range, 2C in medium, 1C in long A/M Scout cannot evade Gal Scout with 2C in short range, needs 3C+1B in medium, 2C in long C/G Scout needs 1B damp against comm/sent with 1C in the short range, nothing in medium C/G Scout needs 1E damp against cal/min scout short range, nothing in medium C/G Scout needs 1B damp against comm/sent with 1C in the short range, nothing in medium C/G Scout needs 1C damp against comm/sent with 2C in the short range, needs 1B in medium, nothing in long C/G Scout needs 1C+1B damp against Gal Scout in short, needs 1C/E in medium, 1B in long range C/G Scout needs 1C+1E damp against 2C assault in the short range, needs 1C in medium, 1B in long C/G Scout needs 2C damp against Amarr Scout in short range, needs 1C in medium, needs 1E/B in the long range C/G Scout needs 2C+1E damp against Cal/Min Scout with 2C in short range, needs 1C+1E in medium, 1C in the long range C/G Scout needs 3C+1B damp against Cal/Min Scout with 3C in short range, needs 2C+1B in medium, 1C in the long range C/G Scout needs 3C+1B damp against Cal/Min Scout with 3C in short range, needs 2C+1B in medium, 1C in the long range C/G Scout needs 4C damp against Amarr Scout with 1C in short range, needs 2C+1E in medium, 1C+1E in the long range C/G Scout needs 4C damp against Gal Scout with 2C in short range, needs 2C+1E in medium, needs 1C+1E in the long range C/G Scout needs 4C damp against Cal Scout with 4C in short range, needs 2C+1E in medium, needs 1C+1E in the long range C/G Scout has no defense against Amarr Scout with 2C in short range, needs 4C in medium, needs 2C+1E in the long range ...sigh.... I-¦ve decided to post two sheets later. They will be the same, only difference is one will not have cloak dampening. This is for two reasons: haven-¦t really decided on the cloak bonus and the general principle of dampening between suits is better to understand with no bonus applied.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13389	Posted - 2014.11.25 18:15:00 - [227] - Quote iWanderer wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So umm, since the Gal Scout can avoid a highly specialized scan that happens every 40 or so seconds, and even then it needs to have all of its low slots fitted with dampeners, it means it's OP? What about the Cal Scout in my design being practically a walking radar with a max range of 150 meters? Mind you, the Amarr Scout can detect the Gal Scout within its short range scanners with two precision enhancers. Heys guys. I-¦m still tweaking Cat Mercs sheet values and had to try something out because as you could see assaults and heavys had no chance in that last sheet (example, sentinel would need 2 complex damps to evade another sentinel...) Since all bonuses are percentage based, I had to use a dampening and precision scale from 1 to 200. I still have problems with the Gal Logi, its bonus needs to be scrapped and the precision values, per suit and scanner, have to be fixed or else it doesn-¦t fit well in the scale. Beacause of so many variables, I favor scrapping the cloak bonus. I can already say the result for mediums and heavys and provisional amarr/min scout values look like this: To not be seen on TACNET: Sentinel needs 1B damp versus Commando in short range Commando needs 1B damp versus Sentinel in short range (this could be tweaked so not so) Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus assault in short range Comm/Sent needs 1B damp versus assault in medium range Comm/Sent needs 1C+E damp versus Cal/Min Scout in short range Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus Cal/Min Scout in medium range Comm/Sent needs 3C damp versus Gal Scout in short range Comm/Sent needs 2C damp versus Gal Scout in medium range Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus Gal Scout in long range Comm/Sent needs 2C damp versus 2 complex precision assault in medium range Assault needs 1E damp against another assault in short range. In Medium nothing is needed Assault needs nothing against comm/sent with 1 complex precision in medium range Assault needs 1C damp against Cal/Min Scout in short range and 1E in medium Assault needs 1C damp against Gal Scout in medium range, 1E in long. 2C in short range Assault needs 1C+E damp against 2 complex precision assault Assault needs 2C damp or more against 2 complex precisions Logi Assault needs 2C+B damp against Amarr Scout in medium range, 1C in long range Assault needs 1C+E against Cal/Min Scout in medium range, 2C+1B in short range A/M Scout needs 1B damp against assault in short range, nothing in medium A/M Scout needs 1E damp against Comm/Sent in short range These are "sort of values" because of the cloak. Post the new sheet later. When did you last get my numbers? Because I have updated them quite actively over the last couple of days. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 4655	Posted - 2014.11.25 18:27:00 - [228] - Quote Hey is it possible to code passive scans into pulses? (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
xAckie Ghost. Mob 468	Posted - 2014.11.25 18:31:00 - [229] - Quote personally, I dont think you should be equating logi precision with assault damps. Logis need to try harder an extra module if you must. They have scanners if they want. Scanning should be left to scouts. Would it be possible to add that different modules have different signature profiles which would increase a suits profile? So a bare bones scout is undetectable but start stacking armour/ shield modules and you will be picked up?
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 213	Posted - 2014.11.25 21:48:00 - [230] - Quote I would like to suggest bumping up the difference between concentric circles from 10% to 15%: 115% (inner) 100% (middle) 85% (base) Let's give people really good eyes in there very immediate area and make things at a distance a little bit more vague. Thoughts?

iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.25 23:02:00 - [231] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: When did you last get my numbers? Because I have updated them quite actively over the last couple of days. As far as the Gal Logi, it's a very precise scan that happens once every 40 seconds and lasts 5 seconds. If it wasn't EXTREMELY hard to avoid, it would be useless. Simple as that. Honestly, dont remember, but you quoted me today so I thinks its those: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2479307#post2479307 Your Values: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=https%3a%2f%2fdrive.google.com%2ffile%2fd%2f0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM%2fview%3fusp%3dsharing&domain=google.com Were a bit to agressive and hard for assaults and heavys, and I think the intended is the inverse. If these are not your latest, then I missed something along the way...
iWanderer PT-BR 11	Posted - 2014.11.25 23:07:00 - [232] - Quote Ok, new sheets and again trying for the best balance. There are two sheets, cloak bonus and no cloak bonus: Cloak Bonus: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHbDh5ZzVpLWNid2M/view?usp=sharing No-Cloak Bonus, easiear to understand the intended overall balance: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHa0lIWUIySWNlU2s/view?usp=sharing And, that-¦s all folks...
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 562	Posted - 2014.11.26 23:56:00 - [233] - Quote The OP's sheet base ranges need to be increased. Detection that isn't within effective warning timing does nothing. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 56	Posted - 2014.11.27 06:40:00 - [234] - Quote A piece of equipment that boosts whatever ewar mods in your kits, like the scouts cloake, but incompatible with the cloake. heavies have no equipment. scouts have a choice-cloake or no? assaults can give up tank and burn through the fog of war, at least between recharge cycles. 10 meters with or without high latency is not enough "time".
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13421	Posted - 2014.11.27 08:48:00 - [235] - Quote iWanderer wrote: Cat Merc wrote: When did you last get my numbers? Because I have updated them quite actively over the last couple of days. As far as the Gal Logi, it's a very precise scan that happens once every 40 seconds and lasts 5 seconds. If it wasn't EXTREMELY hard to avoid, it would be useless. Simple as that. Honestly, dont remember, but you quoted me today so I thinks its those: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2479307#post2479307 Your Values: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=https%3a%2f%2fdrive.google.com%2ffile%2fd%2f0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM%2fview%3fusp%3dsharing&domain=google.com Were a bit to agressive and hard for assaults and heavys, and I think the intended is the inverse. If these are not your latest, then I missed something along the way... How are they aggressive? Two dampeners put you under the strongest scout long range and medium range scanning, it's only once you enter short range where it becomes a headache to try and get under the scans. Heavies aren't exactly supposed to be highly competitive in EWAR. They have massive advantages offset by being slow, blind and easily detected. They will be slightly less so with these changes, but they'll still be all three. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
iWanderer PT-BR 12	Posted - 2014.11.27 11:41:00 - [236] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: iWanderer wrote: Cat Merc wrote: When did you last get my numbers? Because I have updated them quite actively over the last couple of days. As far as the Gal Logi, it's a very precise scan that happens once every 40 seconds and lasts 5 seconds. If it wasn't EXTREMELY hard to avoid, it would be useless. Simple as that. Honestly, dont remember, but you quoted me today so I thinks its those: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2479307#post2479307 Your Values: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=https%3a%2f%2fdrive.google.com%2ffile%2fd%2f0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM%2fview%3fusp%3dsharing&domain=google.com Were a bit to agressive and hard for assaults and heavys, and I think the intended is the inverse. If these are not your latest, then I missed something along the way... How are they aggressive? Two dampeners put you under the strongest scout long range and medium range scanning, it's only once you enter short range where it becomes a headache to try and get under the scans. Heavies aren't exactly supposed to be highly competitive in EWAR. They have massive advantages offset by being slow, blind and easily detected. They will be slightly less so with these changes, but they'll still be all three. Cat Merc, Your short range dampening is to weak, you need a lot of damps up close, and you medium and long range is to strong. Examples: - A heavy versus heavy should only need 1C or 1E to make a difference in short range. In medium range 1E and 1B in long range, because then whats the point of a heavy trading hp for ewar with so few slots. - A heavy in you sheet cannot hide from a Cal ou Min scout in short range, thats shotgun madness - An assault needs 4C damps to hide from a CalScout with 1C in short range. Thats too many low slots ocupied versus a Scout with a lot of high slots. On top of that a CalScout with a lot of shields for example. - The Logis don-¦t fare to well in your sheet, since they have less hp and less weopons in some cases, that should have either a lot more natural dampening ou a little more precision. Another bad case in the sheet, a Logi with 1C versus a Logi with 5C in short range and 1C+1B in medium range. Its to up close - An A/M Scout needs 2C+1E against a Logi in the short range and only 1B in medium. The natural dampening is to high in the short range and to low in the medium range. - An Gal/Cal Scout needs 1C+1B against a Gal Scout in the short range and then nothing in the medium range. You also need nothing against a CalScout in the medium range. These are just examples. In Sum, the short is to weakly dampened and the medium and long rang to heavy dampened with you values That-¦s what I tried to change in my proposals, trying to balance everything again that-¦s just my way of seeing things. The ideal would probably a 3 system approach, 1 ewar system between heavys versus assaults and another system for assaults and scouts and the last heavys versus scouts....what a ridiculous idea I just had...
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5149	Posted - 2014.11.27 16:07:00 - [237] - Quote Assault suits should have a long rang/low precision outer ring to detect undampened Sentinels. (15 to 20m.) Assault suits should have a mid-rang precision identical to what they have now. (10m to 15m) Assaults suits should have a high precision in the near circle to detect undamponed Scouts that get too close. (~10 m) I also think that the size of the dot on the radar should be proportional to the profile of the suit detected. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Catgirl White Mage Nekomimi Paradise 19	Posted - 2014.11.27 17:02:00 - [238] - Quote I feel the Long Range, Low Precision Circle is unneeded. It should be re-purposed as a second Close Range, High Precision Circle for enhanced granularity. Normal zone, warm zone, hot zone. Generally, the warm zone should be 1/2 to 1 suit class better Precision, the hot zone 1 to 2 suit classes better precision, assuming undampened, equal skill. The hot zone should be relatively small, final warning radius. The warm zone is where most of the nuanced e-war and fitting choices would come into play. A 20m base for all suits, which is still 30m with Level 5 Range Amp. Scouts can be longer range, but to be honest I don't really see the need. With the fact Range Enhancers and Range Amplification now give 'effective' Precision Scouts will have a bigger advantage granting detection to their allies than they did before.
iWanderer PT-BR 12	Posted - 2014.11.27 17:07:00 - [239] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Assault suits should have a long rang/low precision outer ring to detect undampened Sentinels. (15 to 20m.) Assault suits should have a mid-rang precision identical to what they have now. (10m to 15m) Assaults suits should have a high precision in the near circle to detect undamponed Scouts that get too close. (~10 m) ... Got me thinking...
iWanderer PT-BR 12	Posted - 2014.11.27 18:03:00 - [240] - Quote iWanderer wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Assault suits should have a long rang/low precision outer ring to detect undampened Sentinels. (15 to 20m.) Assault suits should have a mid-rang precision identical to what they have now. (10m to 15m) Assaults suits should have a high precision in the near circle to detect undamponed Scouts that get too close. (~10 m) ... Got me thinking... And did something incredibly stupid... I gave scouts the worst dampening and precision, and heavys the best precision and dampening. It-¦s crazy I know, and just for fun, some examples: Starting from the top: - Cal/Min scout with nothing cannot evade anything, except Amarr/Min Scout with 1 damp in short range - Gal Scout with nothing - Amarr/Min needs 1E damp in short range, nothing in medium. Assault needs 1B in short range. Heavys don-¦t need anywhing to evade. - Assault with 1C precision: GalScout with 1C+1B damp in short range, 1E damp in medium range, nothing in long. Assault 1C+1E damps in short range, 1C damp in medium, 1B damp in long. Sentinel with 1C damp in short range, 1B damp in medium, nothing in long range - Assault with 2C precision: Gal/Cal Scout 2C+1E damps in short range, 1C+1E in medium range, 1C in long range. Assault 2C+1B damp to evade in short range, 1C+1E in medium range, 1C in long range. Sentinel 2C damps in short range, 1C in medium range, 1E in long range. - To evade CalScout with 4C precision: Gal/Cal Scout 2C+1E damps in short range, 1C+1E damps in medium, 1C damp in long range. Assault 2C+E damps in short range, 1C+1E damps in medium range, 1C damp in long range. Sentinel 2C damp in short range 1E in medium and long range. I-¦ll post this "inverted ewar philosophy" later at night.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5160	Posted - 2014.11.27 18:32:00 - [241] - Quote Catgirl White Mage wrote: I feel the Long Range, Low Precision Circle is unneeded. It should be re-purposed as a second Close Range, High Precision Circle for enhanced granularity. Normal zone, warm zone, hot zone. Generally, the warm zone should be 1/2 to 1 suit class better Precision, the hot zone 1 to 2 suit classes better precision, assuming undampened, equal skill. The hot zone should be relatively small, final warning radius. The warm zone is where most of the nuanced e-war and fitting choices would come into play. A 20m base for all suits, which is still 30m with Level 5 Range Amp. Scouts can be longer range, but to be honest I don't really see the need. With the fact Range Enhancers and Range Amplification now give 'effective' Precision Scouts will have a bigger advantage granting detection to their allies than they did before. The Long Range, Low Precision Circle is how you avoid walking in front of HMG's. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DarthPlagueis TheWise 434	Posted - 2014.11.27 18:59:00 - [242] - Quote Can I get a TL;DR for this thread please? It's confusing the hell out of me. Are we going to have EWAR heavies now or something? F*k this cash grab fix the shit that matters: unkillable uplinks, invisible remotes on null cannon hack panels, etc.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5165	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:07:00 - [243] - Quote DarthPlagueis TheWise wrote: Can I get a TL;DR for this thread please? It's confusing the hell out of me. Are we going to have EWAR heavies now or something? Well, we might have Sentinels equipping dampeners so that they behave like medium frames on an Assault's radar, to keep from scarring the Assaults away... Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 217	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:08:00 - [244] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Assault suits should have a long rang/low precision outer ring to detect undampened Sentinels. (15 to 20m.) Assault suits should have a mid-rang precision identical to what they have now. (10m to 15m) Assaults suits should have a high precision in the near circle to detect undamponed Scouts that get too close. (~10 m) I also think that the size of the dot on the radar should be proportional to the profile of the suit detected. It would be very fun and creative if all the suits had a different set of concentric circles at different strengths. That would shake the hell out of meta. Think about it !!
iWanderer PT-BR 12	Posted - 2014.11.27 21:21:00 - [245] - Quote iWanderer wrote: iWanderer wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Assault suits should have a long rang/low precision outer ring to detect undampened Sentinels. (15 to 20m.) Assault suits should have a mid-rang precision identical to what they have now. (10m to 15m) Assaults suits should have a high precision in the near circle to detect undamponed Scouts that get too close. (~10 m) ... Got me thinking... And did something incredibly stupid... Well, here goes the inverted philosphy of ewar. This is not perfect or final. There are problems an bugs but I-¦m not even going to touch if there is no reason to or no responses. It was in fact just a thought that took 3 mins to change. Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHOEx2c3hIOUs0cHc/view?usp=sharing
Catgirl White Mage Nekomimi Paradise 19	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:32:00 - [246] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Catgirl White Mage wrote: I feel the Long Range, Low Precision Circle is unneeded. It should be re-purposed as a second Close Range, High Precision Circle for enhanced granularity. The Long Range, Low Precision Circle is how you avoid walking in front of HMG's. With Range Enhancers now also pulling double duty as Precision Enhancers, I don't think that's a real concern with a base Range of 20m for everyone. One Complex with level 5 Range Amp, and your up to a 39m range. ( But then I guess thats the difference there. I want all suits to have 20m base, your suggestion was 15m base with a Long Range that went up to 20m for Assault. . so. . . maybe I'm just arguing for higher Precision. ) Does it really need to be higher to detect Heavies at a safe range? I was under the impression that Scout detection and close combat EWAR nuance was the purpose of this change? I primarily run Gal Logi, so I ask out of honest inquiry, since I rarely feel concerned with the location of heavies. They're easy to scan.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12484	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:11:00 - [247] - Quote Here is the final proposal. It is heavily based off of the community feedback, but Cat Merc's combination of Planetary Conquest meta review and thoughtful spreadsheet was exceptional. Thanks everyone, especially those that posed "this should be scanned by this" were very good for those last "yeah, that makes really good sense" tweaks. Final Numbers Here are a few collected guidelines from the community and CCP: Design Principles Lvl 5 precision Assault should scan lvl 5 scouts in close Assault should scan undampened sentinels in long Close Range should be long enough and strong enough to matter Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile Not changing Scout base numbers at all; this round One dampener should get Mediums some benefit One precision should get Mediums some benefit One amplifier should get Mediums some benefit Lvl 5 Short Medium Precision should scan Prototype Equipment 3X dampening on Sentinel should get good benefit No Directional Arrow on Minimap Adding properly calculated EWAR stats to fittings screen Commando should have better sig profile (-5) than Sentinel, Sentinel has better precision (+5) - skirmisher vs point defense Assault should have better sig profile (-5) than Logi, Same Precision, Logi has better range Sentinels need one Precision to scan down PRO Remote Explosives Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Standard Scanner scans Standard Equipment Advanced Scanner scans Advanced Equipment Prototype Scanner scans Prototype Equipment For later discussion Scouts get redefined with efficacy, possibly other attributes Active Scanners Vehicle Scanners Uplinks with different Scan Precision Size of Dot or intensity is based on profile, combined with precision penalty Action influenced profile passive bonus to cloak, higher when active, helps make it useful after "decloak delay" Cross bonuses/penalties (range and precision,etc) Range Amps to High Extenders and/or Plates add signature profile Special Spy Uplinks Changes to Gallogi/Cloak and Focused Scanners go hand in hand "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

hfderrtgvcd 1400	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:21:00 - [248] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Here is the final proposal. It is heavily based off of the community feedback, but Cat Merc's combination of Planetary Conquest meta review and thoughtful spreadsheet was exceptional. Thanks everyone, especially those that posed "this should be scanned by this" were very good for those last "yeah, that makes really good sense" tweaks. Final Numbers Here are a few collected guidelines from the community and CCP: Design Principles Lvl 5 precision Assault should scan lvl 5 scouts in close Assault should scan undampened sentinels in long Close Range should be long enough and strong enough to matter Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile Not changing Scout base numbers at all; this round One dampener should get Mediums some benefit One precision should get Mediums some benefit One amplifier should get Mediums some benefit Lvl 5 Short Medium Precision should scan Prototype Equipment 3X dampening on Sentinel should get good benefit No Directional Arrow on Minimap Adding properly calculated EWAR stats to fittings screen Commando should have better sig profile (-5) than Sentinel, Sentinel has better precision (+5) - skirmisher vs point defense Assault should have better sig profile (-5) than Logi, Same Precision, Logi has better range Sentinels need one Precision to scan down PRO Remote Explosives Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Standard Scanner scans Standard Equipment Advanced Scanner scans Advanced Equipment Prototype Scanner scans Prototype Equipment For later discussion Scouts get redefined with efficacy, possibly other attributes Active Scanners Vehicle Scanners Uplinks with different Scan Precision Size of Dot or intensity is based on profile, combined with precision penalty Action influenced profile passive bonus to cloak, higher when active, helps make it useful after "decloak delay" Cross bonuses/penalties (range and precision,etc) Range Amps to High Extenders and/or Plates add signature profile Special Spy Uplinks Changes to Gallogi/Cloak and Focused Scanners go hand in hand Precision/Profile round to the nearest number with ties going to scanner iirc. This means a scout with two precision will scan an assault with two dampeners. Is this intended? You can't fight in here! This is the war room.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12485	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:28:00 - [249] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff Precision/Profile round to the nearest number with ties going to scanner iirc. This means a scout with two precision will scan an assault with two dampeners. Is this intended? Well, the scout is naturally better at precision, so I don't see an issue with that at all. Why would the reverse make sense? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

hfderrtgvcd 1400	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:32:00 - [250] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: hfderrtgvcd wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff Precision/Profile round to the nearest number with ties going to scanner iirc. This means a scout with two precision will scan an assault with two dampeners. Is this intended? Well, the scout is naturally better at precision, so I don't see an issue with that at all. Why would the reverse make sense? I think that it is fine, I was just wondering if you wanted it like that, considering that the assaults is lower by 0.01. Just a coincidence I guess. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13464	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:32:00 - [251] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Here is the final proposal. It is heavily based off of the community feedback, but Cat Merc's combination of Planetary Conquest meta review and thoughtful spreadsheet was exceptional. Thanks everyone, especially those that posed "this should be scanned by this" were very good for those last "yeah, that makes really good sense" tweaks. Final Numbers \o/ Glad to see some of my concepts adopted. Whatever happens, this is a necessary first step, and there will be growing pains that we will have to iron out. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3878	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:33:00 - [252] - Quote Looks pretty good. I'm starting to wonder about scouts having the best precision and the best profile, but that's probably a later discussion. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8385	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:40:00 - [253] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Here is the final proposal. It is heavily based off of the community feedback, but Cat Merc's combination of Planetary Conquest meta review and thoughtful spreadsheet was exceptional. Thanks everyone, especially those that posed "this should be scanned by this" were very good for those last "yeah, that makes really good sense" tweaks. Final Numbers Here are a few collected guidelines from the community and CCP: Design Principles Lvl 5 precision Assault should scan lvl 5 scouts in close Assault should scan undampened sentinels in long Close Range should be long enough and strong enough to matter Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile Not changing Scout base numbers at all; this round One dampener should get Mediums some benefit One precision should get Mediums some benefit One amplifier should get Mediums some benefit Lvl 5 Short Medium Precision should scan Prototype Equipment 3X dampening on Sentinel should get good benefit No Directional Arrow on Minimap Adding properly calculated EWAR stats to fittings screen Commando should have better sig profile (-5) than Sentinel, Sentinel has better precision (+5) - skirmisher vs point defense Assault should have better sig profile (-5) than Logi, Same Precision, Logi has better range Sentinels need one Precision to scan down PRO Remote Explosives Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Standard Scanner scans Standard Equipment Advanced Scanner scans Advanced Equipment Prototype Scanner scans Prototype Equipment For later discussion Scouts get redefined with efficacy, possibly other attributes Active Scanners Vehicle Scanners Uplinks with different Scan Precision Size of Dot or intensity is based on profile, combined with precision penalty Action influenced profile passive bonus to cloak, higher when active, helps make it useful after "decloak delay" Cross bonuses/penalties (range and precision,etc) Range Amps to High Extenders and/or Plates add signature profile Special Spy Uplinks Changes to Gallogi/Cloak and Focused Scanners go hand in hand Assault actually has the same profile, less range, and less precision. Not what you had listed. Couldn't notice anything else yet. Linked to the Barbershop for some people over there to mull over. If there's an eWAR problem somewhere, I'm sure we'll find it. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Direct Action Resources 239	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:55:00 - [254] - Quote I feel assaults should get a moderate range boost to make range amps more appealing. Not enough to surpass the logi's range but something better than a base of 10 metres. Besides that the whole ewar system looks good, excited to give it a shot. The One And Only
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13466	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:03:00 - [255] - Quote I would still prefer if Logis got the better precision while scouts got the better range. Cuz, ya know, scouts, scouting, recon. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 39	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:15:00 - [256] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It is awesome that you made this work. It is a great improvement to the foundation of how scanning works. I am sure this will be messy when released. We are bound to miss something in the planning and find something is completely OP or UP when this feature is released, but with a bit of iteration we will get it right. In the end this will be a major improvement in scanning and make DUST a better game. I agree 100%, we may not get this right in the first go, so let's prepare to be patient. Lol, isnt that prerequisite for playing Dust anyway? The general idea here is solid, and with enough positive feedback, testing, applying, buffing, nerfing; we'll nail it. Gal and amarr commando, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3878	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:17:00 - [257] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I would still prefer if Logis got the better precision while scouts got the better range. Cuz, ya know, scouts, scouting, recon. Agree. At least logi's having the second best base precision is a good start. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Cass Caul 1773	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:19:00 - [258] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13467	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:20:00 - [259] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile This is where I have issue with the whole thing. Scanning is still a far more powerful thing than dampening, since scanning not only reveals everyone around you, but also relays it to the squad, while dampening only hides a single unit. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13467	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:22:00 - [260] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. lel Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3670	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:29:00 - [261] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Yep. Bravo. I'm done. How many times have you 'been done' now? Oh well, see ya in a week or whatever Appia. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13467	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:30:00 - [262] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Yep. Bravo. I'm done. How many times have you 'been done' now? Oh well, see ya in a week or whatever Appia. As many times as I have meowed. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3670	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:38:00 - [263] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Yep. Bravo. I'm done. How many times have you 'been done' now? Oh well, see ya in a week or whatever Appia. As many times as I have meowed. Nyaa^n? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13467	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:45:00 - [264] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Yep. Bravo. I'm done. How many times have you 'been done' now? Oh well, see ya in a week or whatever Appia. As many times as I have meowed. Nyaa^n? You... I like you. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4875	Posted - 2014.12.01 06:45:00 - [265] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. Since I hear nothing but complaints about scouts being too powerful at this time, the notion that they haven't been worth more than AFKing use up until now is... frankly hilarious. I do not believe any suit should be able to stand behind another completely invisible. Scouts should be able to move much less detected into the position they need to be, and then use their speed and stealth to quickly enter that close range and carry out and attack. Not be able to chill around in the area undetected forever. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12490	Posted - 2014.12.01 07:45:00 - [266] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system. It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12491	Posted - 2014.12.01 08:19:00 - [267] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile This is where I have issue with the whole thing. Scanning is still a far more powerful thing than dampening, since scanning not only reveals everyone around you, but also relays it to the squad, while dampening only hides a single unit. This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4909	Posted - 2014.12.01 08:23:00 - [268] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. misinformation. appia at her best. changes are a great place 2 start. i'd have preferred to nerf scan range a bit more so that you get more interplay of the various scan ranges n stuff (getting crazy precision at +25m imo should be limited to things like the 45 out of 360 degree 5 second snapshot 14 pg focused)...and lol scouts having the best precision, but pretty good elsewhere. great work cat merc. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13472	Posted - 2014.12.01 08:46:00 - [269] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile This is where I have issue with the whole thing. Scanning is still a far more powerful thing than dampening, since scanning not only reveals everyone around you, but also relays it to the squad, while dampening only hides a single unit. This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent. Oh, I thought you meant that you're buffing precision mods to 25%. Carry on then. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4910	Posted - 2014.12.01 09:00:00 - [270] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile This is where I have issue with the whole thing. Scanning is still a far more powerful thing than dampening, since scanning not only reveals everyone around you, but also relays it to the squad, while dampening only hides a single unit. This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent. So sick. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what

RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 150	Posted - 2014.12.01 09:12:00 - [271] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system. It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration. So you mean let min suffer for month then we will do something with it. Please, Min scout don't need buff, but we want you not to make it even worse. BTW, Do u know that when cloaked switch weapon than sprint, the put-down delay cancel uncloak. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 719	Posted - 2014.12.01 09:21:00 - [272] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I would still prefer if Logis got the better precision while scouts got the better range. Cuz, ya know, scouts, scouting, recon. Logis are likely to stay with a squad, hence they provide an invaluable short range umbrella for the squad, increasing their support role. What are cloaks for then if not for scouting?
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 719	Posted - 2014.12.01 09:55:00 - [273] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile This is where I have issue with the whole thing. Scanning is still a far more powerful thing than dampening, since scanning not only reveals everyone around you, but also relays it to the squad, while dampening only hides a single unit. This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent. It's a nice idea but in practice it doesn't work that way. What happens when a whole team is scanning or dampened? It's not going to matter which one is scanning if they are all scanning. And also, because scans are still binary, someone wins. Either there will be a case where you can scan everything or you can hide from everything. If either is true, then we still have the current situation where whole teams can run scans and you can't hide, or they run damps and you can't see them.
iWanderer PT-BR 12	Posted - 2014.12.01 10:38:00 - [274] - Quote Just put these new values into Haerr-¦s sheet, and since that is the best way I think to compare and can notice a few things just to get a general notion: - A standard scanner can only see non level 5 skill players and heavys in short range - A proto scanner can now only see a scout in short range and medium/heavy in short and medium range. - Assault cannot damp against another assault with 3 precisions - Sentinel/Commando need 3 to 4 complex damps versus Cal Scout in short range, and 1C+1B in medium - Heavys continue out of ewar. Heavy versus CalScout with no precisions mods, needs 4C damps in short and 1B in long range. This goes for the same against an assault with 1 precison mod. - Scout are going to need always 1 to 2 complex mods against a 1 or 2 precisions on medium assault in the short range, and 1B to 2C in the medium range. In sum, it-¦s looking good. It is in between my proposed values and Cat Mercs values. Notice: The scanners now become quite useless or in other terms, class restrictive to GalLogis. And to be worth it has to be a GalLogi 5, with protoscanner. This I think is unfair, because all Logi classes get wp for there SP and ISK investment with hives, uplinks, repairtool and GalLogi nothing when out of a squad. But I leave this issue for another time. P.S - Did not notice the precison mod penalty...and that-¦s not reflected in the presented values...
Francois Sanchez Prima Gallicus 168	Posted - 2014.12.01 10:52:00 - [275] - Quote The commando reduced sig profile is an excellent idea at the beginning, but as you're giving an extra precison to sentinel, it becomes useless. All the suits in the game (outside another commando ) will still be able to detect them. I also see the come back of the most catastrophic thing that has ever happened to this game, the Cal and Amarr scout can have an unavoidable scan of 30 meters for every suits but Gal and Amarr scouts. Btw, the gal scout will also have access to a crazy scan, that can be avoided by fully damped scout but it's still too good. And as usual the screwed one is the Min scout. Can't get close to knife people or hack an objective, the two things the Minja was good at.
iWanderer PT-BR 12	Posted - 2014.12.01 11:51:00 - [276] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: ... I also see the come back of the most catastrophic thing that has ever happened to this game, the Cal and Amarr scout can have an unavoidable scan of 30 meters for every suits but Gal and Amarr scouts. Btw, the gal scout will also have access to a crazy scan, that can be avoided by fully damped scout but it's still too good. ... True The only one suit able to see a CalScout in long range is the Amarr with 2 complex precisons. And even that is avoidable with 1B damp. A CalScout can even evade a CalScout with 4C precision mod. The only thing I cannot contemplate is the damp penalty to using a precison mod. And I-¦ll even guess that this penalty when applied looks like my proposed values...just a guess... I just cannot understand how is it possible to calculate values without comparing them to other suits...
iWanderer PT-BR 12	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:01:00 - [277] - Quote Had just another crazy idea. If in the future as proposed, the range mods change to high slots, a Proto CalScout: Sees all, sees everywhere and still haves slots do damp...I present the new mobile scanner: A CalScout tied as a backpack to a heavy and you get a 360-¦ clone mobile scanner...
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 721	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:04:00 - [278] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: one thing id like to see on the topic of passive scan is to make them work no matter what. to do this we would make it so that anyone that comes within scan range immediate starts being "scanned". but this would take time, instead of being instant like it is currently. this changes how scan precision and profile works. the lower your profile, the longer it takes for you to be scanned. the lower your precision, the faster you scan enemies within your scan range. the way it all works is that we would use the precision number and count down one dB per second until it reaches and matches an enemy scan profile, at which point the target is scanned and shows up. so for example: enemy enters your scan range. your suit starts scanning for his location. you suits scan precision is 45 dB, and then enemy has a scan profile of 36 dB 45 - 36 = 9 so it would take 9 seconds after they enter your scan range before they show up. i think we should increase base scan precision so we start with a minimum scan time of 60 seconds. then we could reduce the time by using precision mods, or increase it by using dampeners. the benefit of this way of passive scans is that everyone would be able to use them, but the difference would be in speed or how fast you can scan. if an enemy moved into your scan range, but moved outside of your range before you scanned them then you wouldnt scan them obviously. cloaks would keep you from being scanned, until you dropped your cloak. then you would start to get scanned. but if your profile is low enough you could recharge your cloak and turn it on again before you got scanned. this way is much more dynamic and exciting than the current system. does this not solve literally every flaw of the current system?
Haerr Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 2086	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:11:00 - [279] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Design Principles Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill For later discussion Range Amps to High Can you put the updated numbers for the Range Amplification skill and the Range Amplifier modules in your spread sheet so that we can see them? I really do believe that moving Range Amplifiers to high slots is something that cannot wait, as it is an important measure to prevent Short Range Passive Scans from becoming to good. The proposed numbers have been put into the spreadsheets, here are the links. Scan Table - Base_New_EWAR Scan Table - Base_New_EWAR_Slim fighter jets
Haerr Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 2086	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:19:00 - [280] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile This is where I have issue with the whole thing. Scanning is still a far more powerful thing than dampening, since scanning not only reveals everyone around you, but also relays it to the squad, while dampening only hides a single unit. This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent. Don't forget to bleed out the body since passive scans stay active while your bleed out timer is ticking! fighter jets

iWanderer PT-BR 13	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:36:00 - [281] - Quote Haerr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Design Principles Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill For later discussion Range Amps to High Can you put the updated numbers for the Range Amplification skill and the Range Amplifier modules in your spread sheet so that we can see them? I really do believe that moving Range Amplifiers to high slots is something that cannot wait, as it is an important measure to prevent Short Range Passive Scans from becoming to good. The proposed numbers have been put into the spreadsheets, here are the links. Scan Table - Base_New_EWAR Scan Table - Base_New_EWAR_Slim Edit: As Rattati mentioned Active Scanners have not been changed, which means that they only have 1 Scan Precision value... so the Short and Long Range Scans for Active Scanners that are in the Scan Table will not exist in game. Hey Haerr, just to check, these links are old, right? The slim is not the same as the complete sheet.
Haerr Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 2086	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:43:00 - [282] - Quote The slim only uses Complex Profile Dampeners and ignores Basic and Enhanced Profile Dampeners, which is why it looks slightly different. Edit: And yes it is the same links as before, only with the numbers in the input sheet changed to match the latest propsed numbers by CCP Rattati. fighter jets
Cass Caul 1778	Posted - 2014.12.01 13:08:00 - [283] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system. It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration. I'm saying that as long as Scouts don't have a ROLE bonus, instead of a Racial one, there will always be an imbalance in Scout distribution because the one that takes the fewest low slots, the slots that compete with modules such as kinetic catalyzers and codebreakers, that one will always be the best choice. Seeing as one of the four scouts only have 2 low slots, that means Profile Dampeners need a 10% per level efficacy bonus and an active cloak, something that shouldn't be a choice as to whether a player wants to use it. If you don't change base stats, like you just said, then the Caldari Scout can already get to the same level of precision as the Focused Active Scanner again. With those proposed numbers there are 3 different ways to get a suit to Gallente Logistics' Focused Scanner's Precision with a range of 33-43m. If you take awaay the Caldari Scout's affinity for scan range, you can reduce that to 2 but there's no way people won't min-max scanning. People abhor having to match skill vs skill when it comes to situational awareness, why should they have to look anywhere other than the corner of their screen to know where someone is?! If Dampeners were to reduce range like precision increases profile, instead of forcing the cloak down everyone's throat that wants to play the EWAR game. The game is still all about absolutes. How often, honestly, are people killed outside 40m? Can you get that number? Can you see each by game mode? If a Logistics suit can get Precision to a point where the majority of suits can't avoid it and get range matching or exceeding the average kill range then how is this any more fluid? Hyper-vigilant Precision. So what if Precision adds to Profile? Someone else is just going to run that high precision build to see everyone around them anyway. @ little sammy: You're right. total misinformation. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2173587#post2173587 On the precipice of alpha "The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end scanning." https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176785#post2176785 Gal Scout discussion thread, "This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176876#post2176876 "thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177170#post2177170 All you've done since is say how it's unfair how Detection doesn't overcome dampening. Has something changed during your tenure on the CPM? No, it hasn't. Total misinformation. P.S. It takes like all of 5 minutes to search the entirety of a post you want to find. There's nothing special or time consuming about it. I also love seeing al the "Focused Scanner has high fitting cost," in posts in this thread. For reference, dampening below it takes anywhere form 149 CPU and 18PG comprised of 2 low slots and an Equipment slot vs 1 EQ slot and only 29CPU and 14PG. Or for Min and Amarr it takes another 33 CPU and another low slot. Focused scanners have such a high fitting cost...
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1136	Posted - 2014.12.01 13:58:00 - [284] - Quote The sheer horror of the thought that my 3x dampened Assault will still be picked up over 30m+ by a Logi with only 2x precision makes me want to puke. You have been scanned

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12512	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:05:00 - [285] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system. It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration. I'm saying that as long as Scouts don't have a ROLE bonus, instead of a Racial one, there will always be an imbalance in Scout distribution because the one that takes the fewest low slots, the slots that compete with modules such as kinetic catalyzers and codebreakers, that one will always be the best choice. Seeing as one of the four scouts only have 2 low slots, that means Profile Dampeners need a 10% per level efficacy bonus and an active cloak, something that shouldn't be a choice as to whether a player wants to use it. If you don't change base stats, like you just said, then the Caldari Scout can already get to the same level of precision as the Focused Active Scanner again. With those proposed numbers there are 3 different ways to get a suit to Gallente Logistics' Focused Scanner's Precision with a range of 33-43m. If you take awaay the Caldari Scout's affinity for scan range, you can reduce that to 2 but there's no way people won't min-max scanning. People abhor having to match skill vs skill when it comes to situational awareness, why should they have to look anywhere other than the corner of their screen to know where someone is?! If Dampeners were to reduce range like precision increases profile, instead of forcing the cloak down everyone's throat that wants to play the EWAR game. The game is still all about absolutes. How often, honestly, are people killed outside 40m? Can you get that number? Can you see each by game mode? If a Logistics suit can get Precision to a point where the majority of suits can't avoid it and get range matching or exceeding the average kill range then how is this any more fluid? Hyper-vigilant Precision. So what if Precision adds to Profile? Someone else is just going to run that high precision build to see everyone around them anyway. @ little sammy: You're right. total misinformation. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2173587#post2173587 On the precipice of alpha "The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end scanning." https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176785#post2176785 Gal Scout discussion thread, "This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176876#post2176876 "thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177170#post2177170 All you've done since is say how it's unfair how Detection doesn't overcome dampening. Has something changed during your tenure on the CPM? No, it hasn't. Total misinformation. P.S. It takes like all of 5 minutes to search the entirety of a post you want to find. There's nothing special or time consuming about it. I also love seeing al the "Focused Scanner has high fitting cost," in posts in this thread. For reference, dampening below it takes anywhere form 149 CPU and 18PG comprised of 2 low slots and an Equipment slot vs 1 EQ slot and only 29CPU and 14PG. Or for Min and Amarr it takes another 33 CPU and another low slot. Focused scanners have such a high fitting cost... OK, just give us the actual numbers and tweaks necessary. You say, a few things 1) Cloak, can that be used to help the minmatar scout? 2) Should we reduce the Caldari and Amarr bonuses immediately and fix with efficacy later? 3) Should we add range penalties to dampening like you mention? 4) Do we reduce the amplifier module? 5) Do we reduce the amplifier skill? 6) Move Amplifiers to high? Let's get the ideas out there so we can make the necessary changes. I did not propose changes to the Scouts to, for the lack of a better word, honor their specialty. If that is what is necessary, we will do what needs to be done. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 721	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:14:00 - [286] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: The sheer horror of the thought that my 3x dampened Assault will still be picked up over 30m+ by a Logi with only 2x precision makes me want to puke. i run a logi with 3 complex precision and 2 complex range amps... good luck doing anything within 75m of me
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1138	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:24:00 - [287] - Quote This whole discussion seems to be centered around the misconception that you HAVE TO SEE SCOUTS ON YOUR RADAR to counter them. If scouts can't see you either the fights are much more balanced. I don't have a definate answer, but buffing scans over and over doesn't really seem to be it either. Maybe we should rather talk about buffing damps instead. Instead of restoring balance by making everyone see everyone, why don't we restore balance by making everyone blind? Let getting scanned be the penalty for those who want to stack HP, not the natural state of everything but scouts. You have been scanned
Haerr Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 2086	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:25:00 - [288] - Quote Move Amplifiers to high Look at setting the Falloff Range Modifiers to 100% for Medium range and 130% for Long range, as this allows for a way of fine tuning range amplifiers effects between Short / Medium / Long range scans. Look at the amplifier skill & module Look at the Caldari Scout Skill fighter jets
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 828	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:28:00 - [289] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: This whole discussion seems to be centered around the misconception that you HAVE TO SEE SCOUTS ON YOUR RADAR to counter them. If scouts can't see you either the fights are much more balanced. I don't have a definate answer, but buffing scans over and over doesn't really seem to be it either. Maybe we should rather talk about buffing damps instead. Instead of restoring balance by making everyone see everyone, why don't we restore balance by making everyone blind? Let getting scanned be the penalty for those who want to stack HP, not the natural state of everything but scouts. This. If everyone is scanned, all that matters is HP.
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:46:00 - [290] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: OK, just give us the actual numbers and tweaks necessary. You say, a few things 1) Cloak, can that be used to help the minmatar scout? 2) Should we reduce the Caldari and Amarr bonuses immediately and fix with efficacy later? 3) Should we add range penalties to dampening like you mention? 4) Do we reduce the amplifier module? 5) Do we reduce the amplifier skill? 6) Move Amplifiers to high? Let's get the ideas out there so we can make the necessary changes. I did not propose changes to the Scouts to, for the lack of a better word, honor their specialty. If that is what is necessary, we will do what needs to be done. People are losing their minds over the fact that scouts could potentially see more enemies with a 200 ehp suit fit for nothing besides scanning "because they can". Look, I don't see ANY of that crap when I run into groups like Nyan San because it's not a very good tactic even when your enemies can't find you which is possible now because precision mods don't increase profile, meaning you have some room to fit tank. Even snipers are Caldari Commandos. You're already slapping the quality of scanning by removing directional arrows, and by introducing that penalty to pecision mods you make damp + range amp more viable as it's more likely to pick up other people while not being seen. Min Scout never was reliant on super damping. The knives should not ever be considered a 'primary' weapon because its main purpose is to kill unsuspecting people that either can't fight back or can't react in time. If you balance scouts in terms of Nova Knives being their only weapon, you only make Cal/Gal damp scout even more powerful in the grand scheme of things. That said, pls don't nerf my poor Min Scout :< Honestly, I don't have a solution just yet- these changes will shake things up quite a lot and I'd have to play through it a bit first.

iWanderer PT-BR 13	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:48:00 - [291] - Quote I have been seeing the present existing values and with the latest proposed values and I have to say, in general: - Every suit has to dampen more in short because everybody sort of got more precision or less natural dampening in short range. In long range we will be less visible then now. - The above should work for scouts too, but with a cloak it kind of stays the same for a lot of cases. - It gets a lot worse for mediums and heavys, they will need even more dampening in short range, then now. I thought we were trying to correct this...
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8399	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:18:00 - [292] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system. It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration. I'll be a bit more helpful here. This is always a problem when buffing scanning. Minmatar and Caldari scouts only have a set amount of low slots that they can use while still maintaining role flexibility. With these changes, the main offender here will be (Once again) Logistics suits. They have lots of slots to use these juicy new eWAR modules. Take the Cal Logi. Give it 4x Precision and 4x Range. What happens? You might be easily seen, but guess what? NOBODY is getting within 42m of you without 3 damps and a cloak. Now, lets say that this Logi is just sitting in a corner and scanning in PC (Which will happen). Cal scout is now pushed out of PC. Min Scout is forced to run 3x damps and a cloak. Once again, Amarr is slightly viable, and Gallente runs rampant, because he's the only scout that can dodge scans. You need to remember that people WILL abuse the slot layouts on Logi's if given the chance. Unless you want Minmatar and Caldari scouts pushed out of PC AGAIN, they need a dampening bonus to make up for the lack of low slots. No scout should be forced to run all of their lows to avoid scans. It's the point of the damn suit to be hidden, yet I can only BARELY do so when running the most sneaky suit possible. That isn't balance. I'll be back later with numbers if possible, but I really need to get on my Physics homework. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 835	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:30:00 - [293] - Quote Who remembers when CCP Wolfman said [paraphrased], "combat should be more exciting and involved than 'chase the nearest red chevron'."? When I heard "let's make EWAR more meaningful to MedFrames", what I had hoped for was (1) a new Assault option to beat scans rather than HP tank and (2) a new Logi option to fit for precision sufficient to scan dampened Assaults and poorly dampened Scouts.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 886	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:42:00 - [294] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: No scout should be forced to run all of their lows to avoid scans. It's the point of the damn suit to be hidden, yet I can only BARELY do so when running the most sneaky suit possible. That isn't balance. So, a scout shouldn't have to specialize in stealth to avoid a highly specialised scanning fit? You think it would be reasonable for any scout to only have to use 1 dampener to avoid any and all scans, even your proposed 'offender', the logi with 8 module slots dedicated to scanning? Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 835	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:51:00 - [295] - Quote Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved. As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12516	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:58:00 - [296] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved. As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames. All passive, at short range as well? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1141	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:02:00 - [297] - Quote How about we give precision mods a penalty to range instead? This way you'd have to choose between good scans or good range without having to screw around with CAL/AM scout bonuses or having to make range amps high slot modules. (Damps could also give a penalty to precision, just saying... ) Zaria Min Deir wrote: So, a scout shouldn't have to specialize in stealth to avoid a highly specialised scanning fit? You think it would be reasonable for any scout to only have to use 1 dampener to avoid any and all scans, even your proposed 'offender', the logi with 8 module slots dedicated to scanning? So, 5 Heavies can each stack 1500HP and still get the same scanning advantage as that one Logi in their squad, right? Sounds totally balanced to me. As long as passive scans are shared, dampening has to be WAY MORE effective than scans. And if we did not have shared passives, damps would still need to be better than precision mods because of the nature of the advantage they give. You have been scanned
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8402	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:02:00 - [298] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: No scout should be forced to run all of their lows to avoid scans. It's the point of the damn suit to be hidden, yet I can only BARELY do so when running the most sneaky suit possible. That isn't balance. So, a scout shouldn't have to specialize in stealth to avoid a highly specialised scanning fit? You think it would be reasonable for any scout to only have to use 1 dampener to avoid any and all scans, even your proposed 'offender', the logi with 8 module slots dedicated to scanning? When the HELL have I ever suggested this? The ONLY case where this is acceptable is on the Cal scout, since they don't have the low slots to properly damp. If you want to balance around "Well I'm using more slots", then all suits need the same number of slots. Scouts only have 6, Logis have 9. They will beat scouts every time in eWAR UNLESS you change some bonuses around to compensate. I don't want my scout to be some all seeing, all evading god. I just want to dodge scans in my Minja without horrifically gimping my fit. Hell, I'm fine with running 2x damps 24/7, because thats what I ACTUALLY DO RIGHT NOW. But 3x damps 24/7 is killer. I might as well run a Gal scout in that scenario, since he still has a low slot to play with. Hell, he can run a kincat and be faster than me as well. Why even run a minja? Cal scouts need to run 1-2 damps Minjas need 2-3 Gal/Amrr need 3-4 If you don't do something like this, Gal/Amarr will always be more viable than their counterparts, due to low slots available for dampening. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8402	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:03:00 - [299] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved. As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames. All passive, at short range as well? If you don't move Range amps to highs, then yes. Otherwise, people will just slap on two range amps and laugh as you try to be sneaky within 20m of them. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1141	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:09:00 - [300] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved. As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames. All passive, at short range as well? If you don't move Range amps to highs, then yes. Otherwise, people will just slap on two range amps and laugh as you try to be sneaky within 20m of them. I'm kinda worried about moving range amps to high slots because of the CAL scout. With 2x amps it already has a range of 90m. Any suggestions`? EDIT: Precision penalty to range amps? or Range penalty to precision mods? You have been scanned

iWanderer PT-BR 14	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:18:00 - [301] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved. As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames. All passive, at short range as well? If you don't move Range amps to highs, then yes. Otherwise, people will just slap on two range amps and laugh as you try to be sneaky within 20m of them. I'm kinda worried about moving range amps to high slots because of the CAL scout. With 2x amps it already has a range of 90m. Any suggestions`? In comes the mentioned penalty by CCP Rattati for using precision mods. The CalScout would have to sacrifice shield to equip more precision, then more damps to counter the penalty, then no armor slots to equip....but if protected by a squad, you-¦ve got a problem...Like I said before, jackstrap a Calscout to a Heavys back and let-¦em rip.... Personally, not fun, we-¦ve got scanners for that....
iWanderer PT-BR 14	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:24:00 - [302] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: .... Any suggestions`? EDIT: Precision penalty to range amps? or Range penalty to precision mods? By CCP Rattati "To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile..." Not quite sure how this works out..

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12519	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:39:00 - [303] - Quote Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 110	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:40:00 - [304] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile This is where I have issue with the whole thing. Scanning is still a far more powerful thing than dampening, since scanning not only reveals everyone around you, but also relays it to the squad, while dampening only hides a single unit. This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent. To be honest, as a gal scout, I don't think I will be playing those suits anymore. Which sucks because I really enjoyed doing that for the last 18 months. What's the point in trying to capitalize on one of my bonus is if it negates the idea of capitalizing on the other? Also, I don't really want to play a commando if all I can scan is sentinels. Not even lazy mediums anymore. I.only get one high slot. I had my fits nicely where I wanted them, and now literally every one needs significant adjustment. It's not worth starting over from 50 million SP, so I think I'm done for the foreseeable future. Once this update drops, I'm done with DUST 514. Thanks for the ride! o7 Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 5183	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:41:00 - [305] - Quote Wow... will be interested in seeing some numbers on these EWAR module adjustments. First impressions are that the drawbacks will be too high to justify the benefits. My advice to you, playa...
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 110	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:49:00 - [306] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system. It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration. I'm saying that as long as Scouts don't have a ROLE bonus, instead of a Racial one, there will always be an imbalance in Scout distribution because the one that takes the fewest low slots, the slots that compete with modules such as kinetic catalyzers and codebreakers, that one will always be the best choice. Seeing as one of the four scouts only have 2 low slots, that means Profile Dampeners need a 10% per level efficacy bonus and an active cloak, something that shouldn't be a choice as to whether a player wants to use it. If you don't change base stats, like you just said, then the Caldari Scout can already get to the same level of precision as the Focused Active Scanner again. With those proposed numbers there are 3 different ways to get a suit to Gallente Logistics' Focused Scanner's Precision with a range of 33-43m. If you take awaay the Caldari Scout's affinity for scan range, you can reduce that to 2 but there's no way people won't min-max scanning. People abhor having to match skill vs skill when it comes to situational awareness, why should they have to look anywhere other than the corner of their screen to know where someone is?! If Dampeners were to reduce range like precision increases profile, instead of forcing the cloak down everyone's throat that wants to play the EWAR game. The game is still all about absolutes. How often, honestly, are people killed outside 40m? Can you get that number? Can you see each by game mode? If a Logistics suit can get Precision to a point where the majority of suits can't avoid it and get range matching or exceeding the average kill range then how is this any more fluid? Hyper-vigilant Precision. So what if Precision adds to Profile? Someone else is just going to run that high precision build to see everyone around them anyway. @ little sammy: You're right. total misinformation. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2173587#post2173587 On the precipice of alpha "The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end scanning." https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176785#post2176785 Gal Scout discussion thread, "This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176876#post2176876 "thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177170#post2177170 All you've done since is say how it's unfair how Detection doesn't overcome dampening. Has something changed during your tenure on the CPM? No, it hasn't. Total misinformation. P.S. It takes like all of 5 minutes to search the entirety of a post you want to find. There's nothing special or time consuming about it. I also love seeing al the "Focused Scanner has high fitting cost," in posts in this thread. For reference, dampening below it takes anywhere form 149 CPU and 18PG comprised of 2 low slots and an Equipment slot vs 1 EQ slot and only 29CPU and 14PG. Or for Min and Amarr it takes another 33 CPU and another low slot. Focused scanners have such a high fitting cost... OK, just give us the actual numbers and tweaks necessary. You say, a few things 1) Cloak, can that be used to help the minmatar scout? 2) Should we reduce the Caldari and Amarr bonuses immediately and fix with efficacy later? 3) Should we add range penalties to dampening like you mention? 4) Do we reduce the amplifier module? 5) Do we reduce the amplifier skill? 6) Move Amplifiers to high? Let's get the ideas out there so we can make the necessary changes. I did not propose changes to the Scouts to, for the lack of a better word, honor their spe... Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 886	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:50:00 - [307] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: How about we give precision mods a penalty to range instead? This way you'd have to choose between good scans or good range without having to screw around with CAL/AM scout bonuses or having to make range amps high slot modules. (Damps could also give a penalty to precision, just saying... ) Zaria Min Deir wrote: So, a scout shouldn't have to specialize in stealth to avoid a highly specialised scanning fit? You think it would be reasonable for any scout to only have to use 1 dampener to avoid any and all scans, even your proposed 'offender', the logi with 8 module slots dedicated to scanning? So, 5 Heavies can each stack 1500HP and still get the same scanning advantage as that one Logi in their squad, right? Sounds totally balanced to me. As long as passive scans are shared, dampening has to be WAY MORE effective than scans. And if we did not have shared passives, damps would still need to be better than precision mods because of the nature of the advantage they give. I've wanted passive scans to be removed as well, but we are not getting that. And, sure, dampening should be more effective, but WAY MORE is the issue here. We might as well go '** all changes to the ewar system' in that case and leave it as is. And those heavies can get just as much scanning advantage, if not more, from having a scout in their squad instead of a logi, except that scout will have more survivability (due to speed and dampening) than the logi does. Balanced? Maybe not, but that's what we have to live with. Ghost Kaisar wrote:** When the HELL have I ever suggested this? The ONLY case where this is acceptable is on the Cal scout, since they don't have the low slots to properly damp. If you want to balance around "Well I'm using more slots", then all suits need the same number of slots. Scouts only have 6, Logis have 9. They will beat scouts every time in eWAR UNLESS you change some bonuses around to compensate. I don't want my scout to be some all seeing, all evading god. I just want to dodge scans in my Minja without horrifically gimping my fit. Hell, I'm fine with running 2x damps 24/7, because thats what I ACTUALLY DO RIGHT NOW. But 3x damps 24/7 is killer. I might as well run a Gal scout in that scenario, since he still has a low slot to play with. Hell, he can run a kincat and be faster than me as well. Why even run a minja? Cal scouts need to run 1-2 damps Minjas need 2-3 Gal/Amrr need 3-4 If you don't do something like this, Gal/Amarr will always be more viable than their counterparts, due to low slots available for dampening. That is what it seemed like you were suggesting, that is why I asked you a clarifying question. I think it's not too much to ask for scouts to run at least 2 damps to avoid scans. Interesting sidenote, running into issues with dealing with the scout RE/cloak shotgun spam, I have been told over and over again that I should just switch the suit I run to counter all the scouts, as my logi has little chance of doing so. Maybe if going against a team willing to sacrifice enough to have such strong scans that they actually require specialized dampenign to avoid covering all important areas, some scouts will have to go and run something else for a change, what can I say. That logi with all ewar modules will be squishy and slow, an easy kill. And no, I didn't say to balance around a some magic number of slots used, I was just implying I found the edge case of 1 (ONE) dampener being enough to counter 8 (eight) ewar modules to be a bit unbalanced. But sure, I'll see your "let's give all suits the same number of slots" and raise you "let's give all suits the same base stats". Balance, yes? Also, let me know where you find that min logi with 9 module slots, I'd love to upgrade mine. But seriously, sure, a logi with all slots dedicated to detecting scouts might beat most scouts in ewar... but that logi will lose against a scout in pratically every aspect. A logi suit almost has worse base everything, less speed, less regen, worse base ewar, it will never be able to hide from proper scans itself. So it having a few more slots than the scout is in my opinion quite fine. Oh yes, health. The logi suit beats the scout in base HP. As the second squishiest suit in the game, they are so OP, might as well remove them from the game. EDIT: Also, I do agree that these blanket changes obviously hit some scouts (the min, obviously) harder than others. And that there is definitely room for balancing the different racial scouts, not just the scout as one class. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 836	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:55:00 - [308] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved. As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames. All passive, at short range as well? This comes down to what we mean by "short range". It takes only a fraction of second for any unit to rotate 180 degrees. Once they're backpedaling away from you, you've lost all hope of ever getting them into knife range. I can't tell you how many times an observant mark has heard the sizzle of my knives charging from behind, rotated, backpedaled, and killed me all the while remaining just out-of-reach. ^ In the case of my double damped MinScout, a "short range" of 10m gives my mark (who I've singled out, flanked and stalked) an entire second of "warning, warning, warning" to turn around and begin to backpedal. Some may claim that one second isn't a long time, but one second it is often more than a MinScout's TTK.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 886	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:55:00 - [309] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile Do damps decrease precision and range too? Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 721	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:12:00 - [310] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile dafaq? penalty is by how much? because amps and precision are pretty useless without each other. this seems counter productive. there goes everyones plans for viable passive scans. back to HP stacking everyone. nothing to see here... false alarm.

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 721	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:18:00 - [311] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved. As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames. All passive, at short range as well? This comes down to what we mean by "short range". It takes only a fraction of a second for any unit to rotate 180 degrees. Once they're backpedaling away from you, you've lost all hope of ever getting them into knife range. I can't tell you how many times an observant mark has heard the sizzle of my knives charging from a few meters behind, rotated, backpedaled, and killed me all the while remaining just out-of-reach. In the case of my double damped MinScout, a "short range" of 10m gives my mark (who I've singled out, flanked and stalked) well over a second of "warning, warning, warning" to turn around and begin to backpedal. To those who'd claim that one second isn't a long time, I'd point to my MinScout's TTK. So what is "short range"? Is it 0.5 seconds of "warning, warning, warning" or is it more? And, perhaps more importantly, is it shared with squad? Even after a mark is incapacitated? ^ If I recall correctly, this was among of the reasons why line-of-sight shared scans were disabled. A merc gets flanked and stabbed proper, but turns in time to see his assassin; the assassin's escape is now compromised, his position having been revealed to all nearby. Assassin does everything right. Dies anyway because of a bad mechanic. But maybe it'll be different now that we have cloak. Maybe. just want to point out something i find funny.... nova knife range is 3m. Thats about 9 feet lol. anybody here got an 8 to 9 foot arm length? i sure dont lol
Espeon Bons Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 315	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:28:00 - [312] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile Why would codependent skills negate each other? Thats like saying you can have ammo but you cant use a gun, but if you want a gun you cant have ammo. Profile reduction part sounds okay. Redemption comes from changing who you are on the inside. Stain yourself with evil to defeat a greater evil.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 838	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:34:00 - [313] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile If the changes are implemented as presented in the spreadsheet, passive scanning will become the realm of the Logi. In my estimation, a Logi has little concern for hiding, as he can typically be found around the blob of Heavies. He also displaces the Recon Scout in PC, as he does the job nearly as well all the while generating massive WP from his actual role (reps, revives and EQ-based support). All Scouts will run damps. As the GalScout dampens most efficiently, he'll quickly become the only Scout in PC. TL;DR: These penalties affect the Recon Scout, which we've killed off and replaced with the Logi.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1921	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:43:00 - [314] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile I still feel rock paper scissors is a better balance as previously stated We don't want to have cake and eat it too IgniteableAura wrote: - Precision mods increase profile - Damp mods reduce range - Range mods reduce precision You could possibly make these mods effect active scanners as well. So when using them, if you have a range amp you get more range on your scanner) @Above naysayers, You want to create flexibilty on the battlefield. With any mechanic you don't want a "Best fit only" scenario. You either choose long range and low precision, high precision and low range, or low profile and low range. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 839	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:48:00 - [315] - Quote @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role.
iWanderer PT-BR 14	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:51:00 - [316] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile So Caldari heavys and medium who have high slots and were not in a position to damp, (because it-¦s almost useless), now become precision masters at the cost of shields. Gallente heavys and medium who have a few high slots, dont have that much to make a difference. But a heavy will never sacrifice their low slots for 3 dampeners or whatever to make a difference. Amarr and Min are in between. As to Scouts, Cal have good damps, but annuled by precision mods or range mods if equipped. GalScout will continue to damp.
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1143	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:27:00 - [317] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile Let's not go too far with that. I think precision decreasing range is good enough. We can make it so that a range amp counters the penalty of a precision mod, but if we do both the modules will nullify eachother, which would be slightly weird, even I have to admit that. High precision scans with a high range are easily countered by using dampeners. So I don't really see the necessity to penalize range amps as well. I don't really think we have to mess with the profiles here. Range amps already use the same slots as dampeners so you'll have to choose between the two anyway. And I'm not sure if it would cause too much trouble if you combined low precision with low profile, but also with a terrible range. You have been scanned
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3674	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:31:00 - [318] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: The commando reduced sig profile is an excellent idea at the beginning, but as you're giving an extra precison to sentinel, it becomes useless. All the suits in the game (outside another commando ) will still be able to detect them. I also see the come back of the most catastrophic thing that has ever happened to this game, the Cal and Amarr scout can have an unavoidable scan of 30 meters for every suits but Gal and Amarr scouts. Btw, the gal scout will also have access to a crazy scan, that can be avoided by fully damped scout but it's still too good. Indeed. I'm a little perplexed on why the Commando does not have near identical scanning attributes to the Assault, as it fills essentially the same role. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 150	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:33:00 - [319] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile "Amps decrease Precision" >>>>> you mean increase Precision right? Lower Precision == Better scan What about Damp penalty? Damp increase Precision and reduce range right? Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Raffael-Puma Austria Storm.Fighters E.B.O.L.A. 1	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:43:00 - [320] - Quote We need passive scan in all logistic suites, but when somebody put a shotgun or a cloakfield in the suite the suite have to be not usable!!! And when we give the suite some precision exchanger, then the scan has to be so good that the havy can see a Pro scout with 4 dampeners! This is not OP, because the havys have not enought HP to fight against a scout. And with a PRO Scanner should i can scan a PRO scout! Because a PRO scanner have to be PRO and not STD!!! Fix this CCP! I hate Update 1.9 and RailRifle fix! Only selfrepair is cool, but havy need more HP/s

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4915	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:52:00 - [321] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role. Recon is for the Logi. When you return to Dust from Destiny, mind the new meta; Heavy+Logi blobs are already pretty bad, and it looks like they'll be getting a few upgrades. Lol crymoar. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound 2631	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:59:00 - [322] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile Precision without range is pretty worthless (being able to see nearly everyone once they're already in CQC means you're already dead), range without precision is moderately helpful but not great. If detection Ewar mods cancel each other out, most will start running tank mods. I have concerns about how this will play out. Right now, I think most agree that the current problem is cloaky scouts having it too easy. The emphasis should be on improving the ability to detect them if you sacrifice slots to do so. I've got a "scout hunter" Amarr scout fit with 2 precision mods and a range amp. It's weak-as-hell in most situations, but it's pretty good at killing cloaky scouts that aren't stacking tons of damps. I have to stay close to my squad mates to protect me from everything else. It seems this proposal would make it much harder for suits like this to counter cloaky scouts--I'd be better off running tank mods instead of Ewar. That seems counter to what we're looking to accomplish. The cloaker seems to have most of the advantages compared to the hunter. Best PvE idea ever!
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 868	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:00:00 - [323] - Quote My original stance was that Scouts should get less scanning to move closer to parity. This proposal moves towards parity by giving everyone meaningful scanning abilities. I assume you're intentionally trying to make scanning and being scanned a major part of Dust's gameplay - for all classes. I'm going to wait-and-see. I've never played a shooter before where a permanent "wall-hack" was part of the gameplay. ... If passive scanning is a large part of Dust's gameplay, we may need to give it more attention UI wise. Proper eWar stats on the fitting screen is a start, but people aren't automatically going to understand why some people light up through walls while others don't. If new players don't discover the importance of eWar quickly they won't understand why they are struggling with the game. My preferred option would still be a reduction in passive scanning overall. That's just much easier to understand for everybody.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4915	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:03:00 - [324] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: @ little sammy: You're right. total misinformation. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2173587#post2173587 On the precipice of alpha "The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end scanning." https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176785#post2176785 Gal Scout discussion thread, "This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176876#post2176876 "thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177170#post2177170 All you've done since is say how it's unfair how Detection doesn't overcome dampening. Has something changed during your tenure on the CPM? No, it hasn't. Total misinformation. P.S. It takes like all of 5 minutes to search the entirety of a post you want to find. There's nothing special or time consuming about it. I also love seeing al the "Focused Scanner has high fitting cost," in posts in this thread. For reference, dampening below it takes anywhere form 149 CPU and 18PG comprised of 2 low slots and an Equipment slot vs 1 EQ slot and only 29CPU and 14PG. Or for Min and Amarr it takes another 33 CPU and another low slot. Focused scanners have such a high fitting cost... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176876#post2176876 You basically went through the progression of clarification that happened because I was very tired from 12+ hours spent on that thread. I clarified the intent was for all scout to get under using 3 damps (not 4 lol appia misconstruing who'd have thought ) and gal get under usning 2 complex and a basic. (which the cloak provides no?) " Quote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177170#post2177170 All you've done since is say how it's unfair how Detection doesn't overcome dampening. Has something changed during your tenure on the CPM? No, it hasn't. You used a quote sending me to a response that says nothing about how unfair it is that detection doesn't overcome dampening...it's simply not there..of course...who'd have thunk it. As I said...misinformation. Appia at her best. I do not think you should need 4 damps to beat scans as a scout. 3 is as the posts clarify...more than fine. In 1.7 it cost 4 complex damps of 5 total slots to beat focused. I suggest 3 of our now 6 slot scouts. Sounds about right to me. But meh, Appia's eisegesis sounds better if you like to create drama exnihilo. Rabblerouser, another to be ignored. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4915	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:14:00 - [325] - Quote as for the fitting cost of a scanner...it's 1/8 the map around you.....45 of 360 degrees. And 14 PG is 1/8 of your total fitting on the highest PG logi's. So much for the other 2-3 equip slots light weapon, nade, and 8 high/lows. I've already suggested cloaks need to have fitting reduced. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 887	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:24:00 - [326] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: as for the fitting cost of a scanner...it's 1/8 the map around you.....45 of 360 degrees. And 14 PG is 1/8 of your total fitting on the highest PG logi's. So much for the other 2-3 equip slots light weapon, nade, and 8 high/lows. I've already suggested cloaks need to have fitting reduced. Not to mention the short visibility duration and long cooldown. The PG cost is far from being the only limiting factor on the use of the focused scanner. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 841	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:26:00 - [327] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role. Recon is for the Logi. When you return to Dust from Destiny, mind the new meta; Heavy+Logi blobs are already pretty bad, and it looks like they'll be getting a few upgrades. Lol crymoar. ^ Behaving as expected. Congrats are in order. You've succeeded in changing the narrative from "assault lite is bad" to "ewar scouts are bad". Seriously doubt that the numbers support your premise, but great job on that!
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4915	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:32:00 - [328] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role. Recon is for the Logi. When you return to Dust from Destiny, mind the new meta; Heavy+Logi blobs are already pretty bad, and it looks like they'll be getting a few upgrades. Lol crymoar. ^ Behaving as expected. Congrats are in order. You've succeeded in changing the narrative from "assault lite is bad" to "ewar scouts are bad". Seriously doubt that the numbers support you, but great job on that anyway! mmmmmmm :tears: I love the credit for this, when I really shouldn't be blessed with it. But alas I am happy to be the center of your rage. It makes for some great reading. "zatara-land" and misquotes shall continue!!!! Let the good times roll! Continue peasant. I have yet more room in my bowels to gobble up your butthurt. Edit: The narrative of "assault lite was bad" is one ~~the scout community~~ barbershop would love to make, but is not what the data shows. Trying to eliminate assault lite's is not the panacea. Shotgun scouts with RE's were bad...and still are. But alas I didn't propose the idea for concentric circles...SMB did. I AM proposing that the max scan range in the game be like...35m. on the outermost concentric circle though..because reasons. But that's another conversation and the love i'm getting from the likes of you and appia is much more entertaining than engaging in meaningful conversation. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 841	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:44:00 - [329] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role. Recon is for the Logi. When you return to Dust from Destiny, mind the new meta; Heavy+Logi blobs are already pretty bad, and it looks like they'll be getting a few upgrades. Lol crymoar. ^ Behaving as expected. Congrats are in order. You've succeeded in changing the narrative from "assault lite is bad" to "ewar scouts are bad". Seriously doubt that the numbers support you, but great job on that anyway! mmmmmmm :tears: I love the credit for this, when I really shouldn't be blessed with it. But alas I am happy to be the center of your rage. It makes for some great reading. "zatara-land" and misquotes shall continue!!!! Let the good times roll! Continue peasant. I have yet more room in my bowels to gobble up your butthurt. How can this possibly be deemed constructive, appropriate or anything other than flamebaiting? Are you immune to Forum Rules of Conduct? I am quite confident that I am not.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19713	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:45:00 - [330] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role. Recon is for the Logi. When you return to Dust from Destiny, mind the new meta; Heavy+Logi blobs are already pretty bad, and it looks like they'll be getting a few upgrades. Lol crymoar. ^ Behaving as expected. Congrats are in order. You've succeeded in changing the narrative from "assault lite is bad" to "ewar scouts are bad". Seriously doubt that the numbers support you, but great job on that anyway! You, too, are behaving quite as expected. I'm not going to congratulate you on it though because it has always been your own narrative. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4919	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:58:00 - [331] - Quote Responding to trolls in kind is a sacred part of my duty/responsibility. If you would like to have a real conversation where a purpose other than a political agenda of inaccurate insinuations/assertions in an attempt to paint me as some crusader against a class I've vociferously defended is desired..then I'm very happy to listen. But alas appia and the like prefer the dramatic as opposed to the pragmatic...to the ire of people like myself and rattati. If flaming is the cornerstone of your posting, then enjoy the fruits of your efforts. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 841	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:01:00 - [332] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role. Recon is for the Logi. When you return to Dust from Destiny, mind the new meta; Heavy+Logi blobs are already pretty bad, and it looks like they'll be getting a few upgrades. Lol crymoar. ^ Behaving as expected. Congrats are in order. You've succeeded in changing the narrative from "assault lite is bad" to "ewar scouts are bad". Seriously doubt that the numbers support you, but great job on that anyway! You, too, are behaving quite as expected. I'm not going to congratulate you on it though because it has always been your own narrative. I didn't make up "Assault Lite". Assault Lite was born following 1.8, when a massive influx of players switched to the Scout suit with intent to bulk it up and slay in it on the frontlines. They succeeded in out-assaulting Assaults, and an apt narrative of "Assault Lite is bad" has echoed throughout the Forums ever since. We have nerfed Assault Lite on solid grounds; they truly outperformed another class in its prescribed role. But when did EWAR Scouts become the bad guys? Upon whose role do EWAR Scouts infringe? And if we convert the Logi into a superior recon unit, how is that not infringing upon the EWAR Scout's role?
hfderrtgvcd 1405	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:02:00 - [333] - Quote please keep the childish bickering to a minimum. Some issues with the current proposal I see are: dampeners are still worthless for medium frames in a competitive environment minmatar and amarr scouts can be scanned in close range no matter what they do many suits can have high precision, range, and hp all at once Suggestions: Cloak bonus increased Passive scans only show on minimap, no chevrons above enemies medium frame profile reduced further range amps in high slots You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 842	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:16:00 - [334] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: If you would like to have a real conversation .... 1. What comes of the MN Scout's bonus if he can't backstab without being detected? 2. What comes of the AM/CA Scout PC Roles if the Logi is rendered superior at recon? 3. How are Recon Scouts being role-bled by the Logi any different than Assaults being role-bled by Assault Lite? 4. What specific measures will be taken to prevent Scout usage rates from skewing heavily toward GA Scouts? 5. What specific numbers support the claim that EWAR Scouts are in fact problematic? 6. How will the proposed changes not make more prolific and problematic the Heavy+Logi blob? 7. How will the proposed changes encourage use of damps among MedFrames?
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8407	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:36:00 - [335] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role. Recon is for the Logi. When you return to Dust from Destiny, mind the new meta; Heavy+Logi blobs are already pretty bad, and it looks like they'll be getting a few upgrades. Lol crymoar. Get on skype scrub. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4919	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:58:00 - [336] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: If you would like to have a real conversation .... 1. What comes of the MN Scout's bonus if he can't backstab without being detected? Need to see how min scouts being detected at short ranges affects things. Personally I'd like to see the short range be like 8-10 meters max and even with all the range mods in the world they can only get the innermost circle to like 18m-20MAX...open to suggestions. But min can jump like 10 meters while charging knives at crazy fast speeds. And don't tell me about backpedaling...the min scout will walk right into you...ESPECIALLY if you're not an assault suit using nothing but ferroscale for low slot tank. 2. What comes of the AM/CA Scout PC Roles if the Logi is rendered superior at recon? I've said this elsewhere but scouts IMO should not be the meta of base starting precision and range. If the bonuses allow that scout role to basically negate that 'weakness' and allow it to basically convert it into a moderate (albeit not 'meta' strength vs a slow logi suit lighting up like a christmas tree with no EHP to boot!?) 3. How are Recon Scouts being role-bled by the Logi any different than Assaults being role-bled by Assault Lite? Assaults aren't being role bled by assault lite's...haven't since the changes to cloak dampening and rebalance to e-war to need 2 complex damps + cloak (non gal) to get under 'meta' scans...tanky scouts aren't a major issue...aside from maybe strafe speed/hitbox and the higher base starting e-war that gives it clear advantages over the assault. Assaults even if scouts are nerfed are not suddenly viable..they haven't been 'meta' since chrome...logi's > assault from 1.0-1.8 and now with heavies and scout the way they are assaults in the 'meta' simply serve no purpose...see Shiyou Hideyoshi and anyone who used to run slayer logi suits swapping to scouts...who needs more than 450 ehp against a non heavy when you can get 300-400 ehp off of them before they can locate you...if they do at all..and if they do locate you in time to have EVEN ehp with you...strafe battles with relative amounts of EHP vs scouts...you tell me who's going to win. 4. What specific measures will be taken to prevent Scout usage rates from skewing heavily toward GA Scouts? Umm..great question...aren't they already in the 'meta'? I only see 2 amarr scouts for scanning in PC max and then the rest run gal shotty or cal scouts with like CR and they aren't fitting it to be unscannable. 5. What specific numbers support the claim that EWAR Scouts are in fact problematic? Great question. I can't discuss this in detail because all the data because obvious reasons. Why are shotgun gal scouts the most prevalent thing spammed in PC aside from heavies per Rattati's numbers? In a battle between a 500 ehp scout and a 850-900 ehp assault why does the scout win 1v1's with rifles the vast majority of the time on not open ground? E-war is a potential explanation. Strafing is another. First shot advantage is HUGE. And the time it takes to locate an enemy in dust can be fatally long. If when you started shooting it increased your profile and your enemy lit up like James Franco in Pineapple Express...then maybe it'd be different..I don't pretend to know for a surety. And great conversations about this should be had...one problem is that I don't see you (and other individuals like you) seeking out proactively to identify from players outside your clique what the problems of scouts are (lol sorry it's not as simple as "assault lite's") and having lively and constructive debates where you're offering solutions to the consensus problems plaguing scouts. 6. How will the proposed changes not make more prolific and problematic the Heavy+Logi blob? That needs to be nerfed quick fast and in a hurry. And if you'd like to help me I think it'd be VERY pertinent to be making the forums ring with the fact that Heavies are ***** OP and that heavy blobs (logi's are just a side benefit) are inexcusably difficult to deal with. And things like "ob them" are not an acceptable answer. 7. How will the proposed changes encourage use of dampeners among MedFrames? Well, watching the meta unfold in PC from these changes will be interesting...I keep saying this but because passive scans can't feasibly be removed...scan ranges need to be nerfed dramatically. The innermost circle on a heavy nets you 5m...8-10 for logi's/scouts/assaults. Min maxing with 5 range amps should IMO give you a max innermost concentric circle of like 15-18m 20 just sounds high...and the MAX passive scan range i'd like to see would be like 35m. The lower the min max scan ranges...the less passive scans are efficacious and the more people will need to rely on their own e-war situaiton...and not just min max dampening or saying it because a cal/amarr scout scans them 40m out regardless. 8. If "360 wallhack scans" are a balance problem, why are we adding to the number of units who can do it? because if you can't make it so no one can do it...then make it so everyone can do it. I don't know how giving only one class something that's OP makes sense...But that's not really my argument...just general logic in this particular response. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution** Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4919	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:00:00 - [337] - Quote Oh btw shotty, this is much more constructive. Thank you! Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8410	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:14:00 - [338] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Oh btw shotty, this is much more constructive. Thank you! LOL That's not Shotty. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 854	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:15:00 - [339] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Oh btw shotty, this is much more constructive. Thank you! LOL That's not Shotty. Thank you.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6272	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:21:00 - [340] - Quote So are the numbers in the spreadsheet general, requiring us to figure out how racial bonuses add to the changes, or are racial bonuses being removed? I only ask because they are not directly addressed in the spreadsheet itself (perhaps for ease of reading). Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"

Varoth Drac Titans of Phoenix 423	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:21:00 - [341] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile This has kind of thrown me. Is this just an extra suggestion or a solid part of your plan (pending feedback)? How much of a penalty are we talking about? Based on the original suggestion (not saying I fully support all the numbers, necessarily), and in response to Rattati's suggestion to buff Minmatar scouts as they always seem to suffer the most from these nerfs/changes, here is my suggestion: Posted in the Barbershop to mixed reviews- "I'm thinking, if we are continuing the theme of hunter and hunted, scout bonuses should be changed to fit these paradigms. My proposal: Hunters - Amarr scout, bonus to precision, stamina Caldari, bonus to range andGÇª..maybe cloak duration? Fits the idea of wide flanking for ranged combat Hunted - Gallente, bonus to damps andGÇª..maybe cloak recharge? Still fits the idea of stealth without further dampening bonuses - Minmatar, bonus to damps and hacking. Dampening fits and is very important for hacking and knifing, particularly with these proposed EWAR changes. Other necessary changes. Nova knife damage buffed by 25%. Controversial to remove the Min knife bonus, but Min scouts would still be best (good) knifers with the damp bonus and highest speed. Would be nice to make knives better for other scouts as well. Codebreakers in highs. Allows Min scouts to focus on hacking without sacrificing speed or damps. Gives all suits more high slot options, particularly useful for all scouts if shields and precision mods are going to have penalties. What do people think?"
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4921	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:23:00 - [342] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: please keep the childish bickering to a minimum. Some issues with the current proposal I see are: dampeners are still worthless for medium frames in a competitive environment minmatar and amarr scouts can be scanned in close range no matter what they do many suits can have high precision, range, and hp all at once Suggestions: Cloak bonus increased Passive scans only show on minimap, no chevrons above enemies medium frame profile reduced further range amps in high slots I do think dampening for medium frames needs a buff. Can you provide specific examples of the best combo's of ehp/range, and precision...and what it would take to beat them from a few suits? I would love to see range amps in high slots. and codebreakers! I'd love to see no chevrons over enemies heads from passive scans...should be a minimap thing, not the actual screen...it's no damn dumb. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19725	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:35:00 - [343] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: PS: A backpedaling MN Assault is being pursued by MN Scout walking forward. Each second the MN Scout survives, he gains 0.35 meters on the Assault. Closing a gap of 5 meters would require roughly 14 seconds. Assuming the MN Assault is out of ammo, how might this chase pan out if it is being broadcasted to TacNet? A ludicrously specific and flawed scenario. Why would it be broadcast to tacnet? Unless the Minscout is completely undampened and the Minassault is using precision mods, even on short rings the Minscout will go happily undetected. There have been no proposals that would change this. The only way the scout would be being scanned is if he was both improperly fit and a recon unit was nearby/pointing a scanner directly at his location. Frankly, if a Minscout refuses to dampen properly I see no reason why he should be unscannable on short without significant investment. Additionally, if the Minscout needs to close with the Minassault, I should think he would sprint rather than walk. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4921	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:35:00 - [344] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Oh btw shotty, this is much more constructive. Thank you! LOL That's not Shotty. Thank you. PS: A backpedaling MN Assault is being pursued by MN Scout walking forward. Each second the MN Scout survives, he gains 0.35 meters on the Assault. Closing a gap of 5 meters would require roughly 14 seconds. Assuming the MN Assault is out of ammo, how might this chase pan out if it is being broadcasted to TacNet? Why did the min scout not sprint until close and then knife? why are you walking from 5 meters out? Here's my fun filled example: Quote: A heavy fires his HMG at a RR wielding assault while sprinting at the assault 60 meters out. [insert math about how long it would take for the heavy to get to assault] assuming the RR user is out of ammo and get stuck in the map...how long before the heavy catches and kills the assault? How many bullets from 60m out would he have fired before the kill taking into account overheat mechanics and dispersion changes while he closed the distance? Why did he not take the lav? Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
hfderrtgvcd 1406	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:36:00 - [345] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: hfderrtgvcd wrote: please keep the childish bickering to a minimum. Some issues with the current proposal I see are: dampeners are still worthless for medium frames in a competitive environment minmatar and amarr scouts can be scanned in close range no matter what they do many suits can have high precision, range, and hp all at once Suggestions: Cloak bonus increased Passive scans only show on minimap, no chevrons above enemies medium frame profile reduced further range amps in high slots I do think dampening for medium frames needs a buff. Can you provide specific examples of the best combo's of ehp/range, and precision...and what it would take to beat them from a few suits? I would love to see range amps in high slots. and codebreakers! I'd love to see no chevrons over enemies heads from passive scans...should be a minimap thing, not the actual screen...it's no damn dumb. amarr scout 2 precision 2 range 2 complex armor plates Only the gallente scout can evade scans in close range. To do this it needs a minimum of 3 complex dampeners You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1146	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:39:00 - [346] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile Can't we just move range amps to high slots? Precision mods can still have their profile penalty if you insist. You have been scanned
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4921	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:43:00 - [347] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: hfderrtgvcd wrote: please keep the childish bickering to a minimum. Some issues with the current proposal I see are: dampeners are still worthless for medium frames in a competitive environment minmatar and amarr scouts can be scanned in close range no matter what they do many suits can have high precision, range, and hp all at once Suggestions: Cloak bonus increased Passive scans only show on minimap, no chevrons above enemies medium frame profile reduced further range amps in high slots I do think dampening for medium frames needs a buff. Can you provide specific examples of the best combo's of ehp/range, and precision...and what it would take to beat them from a few suits? I would love to see range amps in high slots. and codebreakers! I'd love to see no chevrons over enemies heads from passive scans...should be a minimap thing, not the actual screen...it's no damn dumb. amarr scout 2 precision 2 range 2 complex armor plates Only the gallente scout can evade scans in close range. To do this it needs a minimum of 3 complex dampeners Yeah...as I've said elsewhere I've suggested that scan range be nerfed significantly. 2 complex plates is like 300 ehp + what 200 ehp base? 500 ehp is not a super high ehp suit. it's decent..and it's enough to slay, but it's not "high ehp" Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 858	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:49:00 - [348] - Quote @ Zatara / Arkena That point is, walk speeds between Scout and Assault are very close to one another, which is why backpedaling out-of-harm's way is both highly effective and far from uncommon. If these protracted pursuits are picked up because a "short range / high precision" Logi happens to be 20 meters away or the 5m inner ring of an Assault is sufficiently precise, then getting knifed will be that much more easy to avoid. I don't know what the data looks like, but I doubt severely than MinScouts are overperforming. I don't see any reason why we should set out to make their takedowns more difficult or give their victims more "heads up" than they already have.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 858	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:53:00 - [349] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: 8. If "360 wallhack scans" are a balance problem, why are we adding to the number of units who can do it? Zatara Rought wrote: because if you can't make it so no one can do it...then make it so everyone can do it. I don't know how giving only one class something that's OP makes sense...But that's not really my argument...just general logic in this particular response. If everyone but the GalScout is going to get scanned anyway, then we'll see nothing but GalScouts and more HP tank. These are not indicative of progress, nor are they indicative of balance. We should be looking for ways to encourage units to use modules other than tank modules. If 360 wallhacks are bad, then more 360 wallhacks cannot be good. That's the general logic.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 224	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:57:00 - [350] - Quote I humbly ask that the Nova Knife and hacking bonus not be taken away from min scout. It is fun to have something totally off the wall and different from the other scouts. If EWAR gets normalized, nothing will change the for min scout. He just needs to run enough damps to be hidden from 90% of people with a kincat. Hopefully that is doable with 2 low slots as both basic and advanced min scouts only have 2 low slots. TS;DU I would rather NOT have any sort of e-war bonus on the min scout. Keep current bonuses, please.

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19727	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:00:00 - [351] - Quote Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. EDIT: Additionally, EWAR should be accessible to suits other than scouts. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
iWanderer PT-BR 15	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:01:00 - [352] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: [quote=hfderrtgvcd]please keep the childish bickering to a minimum. ... ... I do think dampening for medium frames needs a buff. Can you provide specific examples of the best combo's of ehp/range, and precision...and what it would take to beat them from a few suits?... I have already proposed this a while ago: With no cloak bonus (for all suits):https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHa0lIWUIySWNlU2s/view?usp=sharing With cloak: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHbDh5ZzVpLWNid2M/view?usp=sharing I even invented a new inversed thingie: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHOEx2c3hIOUs0cHc/view?usp=sharing All for balance, the balance between all...
hfderrtgvcd 1407	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:04:00 - [353] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: hfderrtgvcd wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: hfderrtgvcd wrote: please keep the childish bickering to a minimum. Some issues with the current proposal I see are: dampeners are still worthless for medium frames in a competitive environment minmatar and amarr scouts can be scanned in close range no matter what they do many suits can have high precision, range, and hp all at once Suggestions: Cloak bonus increased Passive scans only show on minimap, no chevrons above enemies medium frame profile reduced further range amps in high slots I do think dampening for medium frames needs a buff. Can you provide specific examples of the best combo's of ehp/range, and precision...and what it would take to beat them from a few suits? I would love to see range amps in high slots. and codebreakers! I'd love to see no chevrons over enemies heads from passive scans...should be a minimap thing, not the actual screen...it's no damn dumb. amarr scout 2 precision 2 range 2 complex armor plates Only the gallente scout can evade scans in close range. To do this it needs a minimum of 3 complex dampeners Yeah...as I've said elsewhere I've suggested that scan range be nerfed significantly. 2 complex plates is like 300 ehp + what 200 ehp base? 500 ehp is not a super high ehp suit. it's decent..and it's enough to slay, but it's not "high ehp" 500 hp is a lot when you and your squad can literally see everyone. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 859	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:07:00 - [354] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. I'm of the opinion that Scouts should be running damps. Preferably two. I also agree that moving Scout EWAR bonuses to point to efficacy would be good for balance. These points I've expressed consistently. What I disagree with are Logis scanning at 18dB from 15m to 40m.
iWanderer PT-BR 15	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:13:00 - [355] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: I'm of the opinion that Scouts should be running damps. Preferably two. I also agree that moving Scout EWAR bonuses to point to efficacy would be good for balance. These points I've expressed consistently. What I disagree with are Logis sharing passive scans at 18dB from 15m to 40m. This shuts down CQC play for all but Gallente Scouts, this replaces the AM Scout with an embedded recon unit which generates constant and massive WP, and this upgrades Heavy+Logi blobs to near omniscience. There is no way that this is good for balance. And again, please see: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2491443#post2491443 And example were scouts have to use damps and precisions to be better, and mediums to get and edge and heavys get the jump on some mediums and scouts. I have proposed this before.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6272	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:15:00 - [356] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. EDIT: Additionally, EWAR should be accessible to suits other than scouts. And HP should be accessible to suits other than heavies. That doesn't mean that Light and Medium frames should be near to on par with Heavies. This game so far is EWAR vs HP. Right now, HP is winning. These changes are complex. The greater the complexity, the greater the chance for errors and massive problems. If done incorrectly, these changes will negate entire roles. That could be Assaults, it could be scouts. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 859	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:16:00 - [357] - Quote iWanderer wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: I'm of the opinion that Scouts should be running damps. Preferably two. I also agree that moving Scout EWAR bonuses to point to efficacy would be good for balance. These points I've expressed consistently. What I disagree with are Logis sharing passive scans at 18dB from 15m to 40m. This shuts down CQC play for all but Gallente Scouts, this replaces the AM Scout with an embedded recon unit which generates constant and massive WP, and this upgrades Heavy+Logi blobs to near omniscience. There is no way that this is good for balance. And again, please see: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2491443#post2491443 And example were scouts have to use damps and precisions to be better, and mediums to get and edge and heavys get the jump on some mediums and scouts. I have proposed this before. It'll take a long time for me to reverse engineer your chart. What are your specific base values (inputs)? What other changes are you proposing?
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4921	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:16:00 - [358] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: What I disagree with are Logis sharing passive scans at 18dB from 15m to 40m. This shuts down CQC play for MN/AM Scouts, replaces the AM Scout with an embedded recon unit which generates constant and massive WP, and this upgrades Heavy+Logi blobs to near omniscience. There is no way that this is good for balance. THIS is where we agree completely. Hence why passive scan ranges being nerfed is a huge priority now. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19727	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:16:00 - [359] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: [ What I disagree with are Logis sharing passive scans at 18dB from 15m to 40m. This shuts down CQC play for all but Gallente Scouts, this replaces the AM Scout with a Recon Unit which generates constant WP, and this upgrades Heavy+Logi blobs to near omniscience. All scouts can dampen underneath 18dB. Passive scanning this much, even with buffs to logi base stats, would require an immense investment and leave the logi as a glass scanner. Additionally, it would not generate any WP unless you actually mean active scans, in which case I will point out that there are only narrow scan angles and limited uptime on scans. This doesn't upgrade heavy+logi blobs to omniscience any more than the Amarr scout does - the Amarr scout is actually a superior EWAR platform on account of being able to do this while being more dampened and potentially even more tanked than a logi that tries to do this. It is, however, a disgustingly long range to have 360 degree scans at that level of precision which is why I feel that high precision scans should not go out to those distances unless they're active, in which case they have a bucketload of tradeoffs. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6272	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:17:00 - [360] - Quote Ok, here is my question with the proposal. I am seeing an Amarr scout with 2 CPE mods getting 13 dB from 0 to 12 m. How does that change if that same scout adds 1 Complex Range amp? What will the precision penalty be? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:18:00 - [361] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. EDIT: Additionally, EWAR should be accessible to suits other than scouts. And HP should be accessible to suits other than heavies. That doesn't mean that Light and Medium frames should be near to on par with Heavies. This game so far is EWAR vs HP. Right now, HP is winning. These changes are complex. The greater the complexity, the greater the chance for errors and massive problems. If done incorrectly, these changes will negate entire roles. That could be Assaults, it could be scouts. I'm sorry, but so far...min maxing HP (heavies) AND e-war (scouts) are winning. Fact is shotgun scouts are quite deadly to heavies and an iwin button to everything else aside from rooftop campers if you don't have an uplink..and the only place they aren't is blobs, which is when re's are more useful. But do not mistake it. The data affirms in competitive meta...the scout is the most useful/versatile suit...the heavy suit is good for blobbing. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:20:00 - [362] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: 500 hp is a lot when you and your squad can literally see everyone. Only if the enemy squad your'e facing CAN'T literally see everyone also. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 860	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:20:00 - [363] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: [ What I disagree with are Logis sharing passive scans at 18dB from 15m to 40m. This shuts down CQC play for all but Gallente Scouts, this replaces the AM Scout with a Recon Unit which generates constant WP, and this upgrades Heavy+Logi blobs to near omniscience. All scouts can dampen underneath 18dB. Passive scanning this much, even with buffs to logi base stats, would require an immense investment and leave the logi as a glass scanner. Additionally, it would not generate any WP unless you actually mean active scans, in which case I will point out that there are only narrow scan angles and limited uptime on scans. This doesn't upgrade heavy+logi blobs to omniscience any more than the Amarr scout does - the Amarr scout is actually a superior EWAR platform on account of being able to do this while being more dampened and potentially even more tanked than a logi that tries to do this. It is, however, a disgustingly long range to have 360 degree scans at that level of precision which is why I feel that high precision scans should not go out to those distances unless they're active, in which case they have a bucketload of tradeoffs. 3 cPEs = 18dB. 3 slots might be alot for a Scout, but it certainly isn't alot to a Logi. We are very much stepping on the toes of the Recon Scout. CA Scout and AM Scout will be left without role. Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: EDIT: Wait, how did this logi get 18dB scans out to 40m? This is not a thing, even under the most stacked logi with the new proposals. Short Range 1 cPE - 24dB 2 cPE - 20dB 3 cPE - 18dB 4 cPE - 17dB Short Range can be extended from unmodified base of 15m to 42.87m.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19728	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:28:00 - [364] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: 3 cPEs = 18dB. 3 slots might be alot for a Scout, but it certainly isn't alot to a Logi. We are very much stepping on the toes of the Recon Scout. CA Scout and AM Scout will be left without role. 18dB at 15m, not 40m. Amarr scouts can scan far better than even the most stacked EWAR logi. If anything is going to invalidate scouts sneaking up on people, it is 13dB scans which are nigh on unavoidable except in the most extreme edge case (Galscout with 4 complex dampeners and a proto cloak active). 18dB scans can be evaded by all scouts - 13dB scouts are practically unavoidable. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 861	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:39:00 - [365] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: What I disagree with are Logis sharing passive scans at 18dB from 15m to 40m. This shuts down CQC play for MN/AM Scouts, replaces the AM Scout with an embedded recon unit which generates constant and massive WP, and this upgrades Heavy+Logi blobs to near omniscience. There is no way that this is good for balance. THIS is where we agree completely. Hence why passive scan ranges being nerfed is a huge priority now. Another option is to tune the inner ring multiplier. 25% simply may be too high.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19730	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:42:00 - [366] - Quote I think reducing the inner ring size is more likely to harm the Amarr scout than harm the logi. If a scout wishes to evade the logi short scans, it can be done - not so in the case of the Amarr scout, which is where its role comes into play. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 861	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:47:00 - [367] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think reducing the inner ring size is more likely to harm the Amarr scout than harm the logi. If a scout wishes to evade the logi short scans, it can be done - not so in the case of the Amarr scout, which is where its role comes into play. The AM Scout doesn't need more than 18dB. Units getting flanked and killed from behind is a part of the game. Its why Scouts double and triple stack damps instead of running straight HP (like everyone else).
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19731	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:52:00 - [368] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think reducing the inner ring size is more likely to harm the Amarr scout than harm the logi. If a scout wishes to evade the logi short scans, it can be done - not so in the case of the Amarr scout, which is where its role comes into play. The AM Scout doesn't need more than 18dB. Units getting flanked and killed from behind is a part of the game. Its why Scouts double and triple stack damps instead of running straight HP (like everyone else). You mean, it shouldn't have better than 18dB? It can quite definitely use it and it gives it a defined role in its own scanning - which is what you wanted, yes? Incidentally, I'm a little baffled by your extreme anti-'king HP' complaints. On one hand, you complain that everyone is stacking HP and EWAR should be more viable. On the other, should a non-scout become a potentially serious EWAR threat, it immediately becomes the target of a series of complaints about its EWAR strength even though it is still outperformed by a scout. Stealth play is not going to happen for medium frames unless passive scanning across the board takes a truly gigantic nerf. Even then, that wouldn't result in assaults fitting more damps than plates/reps. There is never going to be a point at which more people fit EWAR mods than HP mods simply because of the way the EWAR system works. I feel that usage of non-HP mods should be encouraged, but I really don't understand how you think this should be done. I give you a challenge. Suggest a solution which would bring the market share of EWAR mods up to 30%, without making every single player in the game a scout. I'm going to leave you with that until tomorrow, because for now I am off to bed. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 865	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:06:00 - [369] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think reducing the inner ring size is more likely to harm the Amarr scout than harm the logi. If a scout wishes to evade the logi short scans, it can be done - not so in the case of the Amarr scout, which is where its role comes into play. The AM Scout doesn't need more than 18dB. Units getting flanked and killed from behind is a part of the game. Its why Scouts double and triple stack damps instead of running straight HP (like everyone else). You mean, it shouldn't have better than 18dB? It can quite definitely use it and it gives it a defined role in its own scanning - which is what you wanted, yes? Incidentally, I'm a little baffled by your extreme anti-'king HP' complaints. On one hand, you complain that everyone is stacking HP and EWAR should be more viable. On the other, should a non-scout become a potentially serious EWAR threat, it immediately becomes the target of a series of complaints about its EWAR strength even though it is still outperformed by a scout. Three reasons. 1. I believe that roles should be clearly defined and that role bleed should be corrected when an where possible. A Logi with 18dB passive scans is a clear case of role bleed. If you want Scouts to lose the recon role, then take it. But be definitive about it, and have something in hand to replace the roles of those left without one. 2. Heavy+Logi blobs are among the last things in the game which need a buff. Heavies are losing their directional arrows, which is a definite buff. Give their rep-slaves intense scans, and we buff the Heavy yet again. 3. Look at market data. 99.9% of low slot sales are brick-related. This isn't healthy. We should be looking for ways to make stealth play attractive to Assaults. We began with this idea, but we've come to kill it in its infancy.
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:06:00 - [370] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? snip With these changes, the main offender here will be (Once again) Logistics suits. They have lots of slots to use these juicy new eWAR modules. Take the Cal Logi. Give it 4x Precision and 4x Range. What happens? You might be easily seen, but guess what? NOBODY is getting within 42m of you without 3 damps and a cloak. Now, lets say that this Logi is just sitting in a corner and scanning in PC (Which will happen). snip The solution is quite elegant. Stacking penalties on the bonus provided by modules. Shouldn't hurt heavies much as they lack many slots, and scouts would be at a clear advantage with higher base stats. As for Minmatar Scout... I have Caldari Scout 5 but use my basic Minmatar Scout at level 2. It is, hands down, the best suit to flank with and brutally punishes mistakes with OHKO knives (well, mine tend to 2HKO on tankier targets) and insane hacking speed. Good shield recharge when compared to an Assault (albeit not as great as Cal Scout) combined with its athletic capability only completes its ability to skirmish.

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:09:00 - [371] - Quote In 1.7 I ran 2 or 3 complex damps on my logi suits. Very few Scouts don't run 2 tank modules. And currently...as I said..the numbers are quite clear that unless facing a BLOB of heavies...a single operant scout is the most deadly suit in the game...with 3 complex shield extenders a min scout hits 430 EHP with innates. amarr scout hits like close to 600 with 3 complex reactive. And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
iWanderer PT-BR 15	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:14:00 - [372] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: It'll take a long time for me to reverse engineer your chart. What are your specific base values (inputs)? What other changes are you proposing? It-¦s not my chart, just fiddled with the values. You have to download it, and in the input tab are the values. In the output tab are the values in the format of Rattati-¦s post, but related to my inputs. But more important is the relation between diferent suits in the first tab. It does not matter what the values are, it-¦s how the correspondence between suits and roles is nade. My specific inputs use a scale from 0 to 200, because of dealing with bonus percentages and whatever, it-¦s more easy to differentiate. I changed profiles, ranges, precision and a few scout bonuses. The scanner and GalLogi values are a bit off but can be fixed.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 865	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:27:00 - [373] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: In 1.7 I ran 2 or 3 complex damps on my logi suits. Very few Scouts don't run 2 tank modules. And currently...as I said..the numbers are quite clear that unless facing a BLOB of heavies...a single operant scout is the most deadly suit in the game...with 3 complex shield extenders a min scout hits 430 EHP with innates. amarr scout hits like close to 600 with 3 complex reactive. And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned. How to Fix: 1. Rewire Scout bonuses to efficacy. 2. Add meaningful drawbacks to Armor Plates; the lighter the unit, the steeper the drawback. 3. Reduce HP payout of all Armor Plate types (including Ferro and Reactive). 4. Remedy fire-from-cloak and maintain decloak requirement in advance of attack. What Happens: King HP - Brick pays slightly less utility to non-Scouts, making slightly more attractive other low-slot module types. GalScout - Now needs two damps to accomplish what he could previously accomplish with one. Will opt for ferroscale or reactive plates to avoid penalty. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline. CalScout - Now needs two damps to accomplish what he could previously accomplish with one. Must choose between strength at Scan Range or strength at Scan Profile. Will always opt for Assault over opting to run plates. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline. MN Scout - No change. None needed. AM Scout - No change in highs. Greater incentive to run range or biotics in lows. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6276	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:33:00 - [374] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. EDIT: Additionally, EWAR should be accessible to suits other than scouts. And HP should be accessible to suits other than heavies. That doesn't mean that Light and Medium frames should be near to on par with Heavies. This game so far is EWAR vs HP. Right now, HP is winning. These changes are complex. The greater the complexity, the greater the chance for errors and massive problems. If done incorrectly, these changes will negate entire roles. That could be Assaults, it could be scouts. I'm sorry, but so far...min maxing HP (heavies) AND e-war (scouts) are winning. Fact is shotgun scouts are quite deadly to heavies and an iwin button to everything else aside from rooftop campers if you don't have an uplink..and the only place they aren't is blobs, which is when re's are more useful. But do not mistake it. The data affirms in competitive meta...the scout is the most useful/versatile suit...the heavy suit is good for blobbing. The data that Rattati showed from PC had the top 2 spots going to heavies, with Gal Scout in 3rd. What about the other scouts? Rattati says Cal scouts are OP, and I believe him (but to my mind that has more to do with straffing, which is broken for everyone, not just Caldari Scouts). I would love to see a more comprehensive list. Not to mention that a lot of what makes the Gal Scout so HP/EWAR versatile is the passive vs module efficacy bonus, which I would have loved to have seen implimented before the EWAR rings. I do not argue that there are problems. I do not even always argue that they are different problems (though if you tell me Minmatar are OP you better show me some data to back such an insane idea). What I argue is that the "fixes" are not fixing the real problems, and are further creating imbalances rather than reducing them. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:35:00 - [375] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: In 1.7 I ran 2 or 3 complex damps on my logi suits. Very few Scouts don't run 2 tank modules. And currently...as I said..the numbers are quite clear that unless facing a BLOB of heavies...a single operant scout is the most deadly suit in the game...with 3 complex shield extenders a min scout hits 430 EHP with innates. amarr scout hits like close to 600 with 3 complex reactive. And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned. How to Fix: 1. Rewire Scout bonuses to efficacy. 2. Add meaningful drawbacks to Armor Plates; the lighter the unit, the steeper the drawback. 3. Reduce HP payout of all Armor Plate types (including Ferro and Reactive). 4. Remedy fire-from-cloak and maintain decloak requirement in advance of attack. What Happens: King HP - Brick pays slightly less utility to non-Scouts, making slightly more attractive other low-slot module types. GalScout - Now needs two damps to accomplish what he could previously accomplish with one. Will opt for ferroscale or reactive plates to avoid penalty. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline. CalScout - Now needs two damps to accomplish what he could previously accomplish with one. Must choose between strength at Scan Range or strength at Scan Profile. Will always opt for Assault over opting to run plates. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline. MN Scout - No change. None needed. AM Scout - No change in highs. Greater incentive to run range or biotics in lows. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline. facepalm you miss the point on the plates. Fixing fire from cloak has been worked on since forever...i'm not optimistic about it being fixed. And until it's got a 2-3 second delay to fire, and a delay after firing or sprinting to recloak...i'm skeptical it'll be efficacious. This is why i have said scouts should share the best scan range, and give up the best base starting precision. I'd even be fine if scouts got like 0db passive scans for 5-8meters...just flat out at all times....no way to increase it..their middle circle would be like 50db :P then scouts are ***** amazing and hold the meta...but in practicality people would still use logi's for range and assault for great precision at decent range... just a thought i'm just spitballing. then cal get's extra range (let's say like 150% of regular range) and amarr scouts get a different bonus altogether. open to suggestions. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution** Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:36:00 - [376] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: PS: A backpedaling MN Assault is being pursued by MN Scout walking forward. Each second the MN Scout survives, he gains 0.35 meters on the Assault. Closing a gap of 5 meters would require roughly 14 seconds. Assuming the MN Assault is out of ammo, how might this chase pan out if it is being broadcasted to TacNet? I used to die like that a lot, until I realized just how stupid it was to always have knives out and try to charge them up against medium frames as I walked up behind them. In practice it's better to have the gun out as you sprint towards them, and if they turn you have a couple choices: 1. Take your first strike ability and simply shoot them to death. (Wouldn't recommend vs. Heavies) 2. Risk sprinting futher to try and stab them. (Burst damage like Shotgun, Bolt Pistol, Breach ScP, Scrambler Rifle makes this hard) 3. Run away/behind cover. I've noticed that many enemies pursue you if they think you're a squishy target, especially if they chip into your armor. Coincidentally, my basic Min Scout has 405 EHP and tends to kill enemies that round the corner into nova knives. Min Scout is supah fast, and you don't really lose much time by running away. It's always easier to have gun out because knives draw really quickly and don't need to be aimed. Reverse isn't quite true.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2354	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:38:00 - [377] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Here is the final proposal. It is heavily based off of the community feedback, but Cat Merc's combination of Planetary Conquest meta review and thoughtful spreadsheet was exceptional. Thanks everyone, especially those that posed "this should be scanned by this" were very good for those last "yeah, that makes really good sense" tweaks. Final Numbers Here are a few collected guidelines from the community and CCP: Design Principles Lvl 5 precision Assault should scan lvl 5 scouts in close Assault should scan undampened sentinels in long Close Range should be long enough and strong enough to matter Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile Not changing Scout base numbers at all; this round One dampener should get Mediums some benefit One precision should get Mediums some benefit One amplifier should get Mediums some benefit Lvl 5 Short Medium Precision should scan Prototype Equipment 3X dampening on Sentinel should get good benefit No Directional Arrow on Minimap Adding properly calculated EWAR stats to fittings screen Commando should have better sig profile (-5) than Sentinel, Sentinel has better precision (+5) - skirmisher vs point defense Assault should have better sig profile (-5) than Logi, Same Precision, Logi has better range Sentinels need one Precision to scan down PRO Remote Explosives Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Standard Scanner scans Standard Equipment Advanced Scanner scans Advanced Equipment Prototype Scanner scans Prototype Equipment For later discussion Scouts get redefined with efficacy, possibly other attributes Active Scanners Vehicle Scanners Uplinks with different Scan Precision Size of Dot or intensity is based on profile, combined with precision penalty Action influenced profile passive bonus to cloak, higher when active, helps make it useful after "decloak delay" Cross bonuses/penalties (range and precision,etc) Range Amps to High Extenders and/or Plates add signature profile Special Spy Uplinks Changes to Gallogi/Cloak and Focused Scanners go hand in hand A complicated and game changing proposal. How will it change the game? In truth nobody knows. What jumps out as the most complicating factor is the short range scan range ring - it heavily impacts all cqc encounters and more importantly playstyles. One thing i would be tempted to implement is to make the short range scan ring immune(or almost immune, say only 1/10th the effect) to range extenders. For example, if a range amp gives '+50% scan range', what this would mean is a 5% boost to the short range ring, a 50% boost to the medium and long range rings. The ewar module tradeoffs mentioned later in this thread are an interesting approach in terms of gameplay and meaningful player decisions. Definitely worth implementing on a trial basis, imo. Biggest wishes for what isn't in the above proposal: 1) removal of chevrons and 2) shared squad vision needs to be looked at. PSN: RationalSpark
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:42:00 - [378] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. EDIT: Additionally, EWAR should be accessible to suits other than scouts. And HP should be accessible to suits other than heavies. That doesn't mean that Light and Medium frames should be near to on par with Heavies. This game so far is EWAR vs HP. Right now, HP is winning. These changes are complex. The greater the complexity, the greater the chance for errors and massive problems. If done incorrectly, these changes will negate entire roles. That could be Assaults, it could be scouts. I'm sorry, but so far...min maxing HP (heavies) AND e-war (scouts) are winning. Fact is shotgun scouts are quite deadly to heavies and an iwin button to everything else aside from rooftop campers if you don't have an uplink..and the only place they aren't is blobs, which is when re's are more useful. But do not mistake it. The data affirms in competitive meta...the scout is the most useful/versatile suit...the heavy suit is good for blobbing. The data that Rattati showed from PC had the top 2 spots going to heavies, with Gal Scout in 3rd. What about the other scouts? Rattati says Cal scouts are OP, and I believe him (but to my mind that has more to do with straffing, which is broken for everyone, not just Caldari Scouts). I would love to see a more comprehensive list. Not to mention that a lot of what makes the Gal Scout so HP/EWAR versatile is the passive vs module efficacy bonus, which I would have loved to have seen implimented before the EWAR rings. I do not argue that there are problems. I do not even always argue that they are different problems (though if you tell me Minmatar are OP you better show me some data to back such an insane idea). What I argue is that the "fixes" are not fixing the real problems, and are further creating imbalances rather than reducing them. min is the only one -not- OP because it seves no purpose in the meta. Amarr scouts are used to keep the enemy honest...anyone not running adequate damps get killed. Cal are used because cal scouts are OP in 1v1's with rifles, but they also light the entire cities worth of enemy equips...and thus because you see the equips being dropped, you know all the places where the enemy is (as they are getting placed) and the direction of enemy advance. Gal scouts (duh). Heavies are the blobs of ** getting killed the most...and I believe it...they are the meat grinding suit. The numbers he released were about what was killed the most in PC right? i expect respecs will have allowed more people to react to amarr scouts being the meta of passive scanning. But yeah...after HMG's...and 2 types of shotties...are among the top 3 or 4 weapons used in PC. there was 2 rifles used on the top 10 list...ACR and RR (which has since been nerfed out of the meta aside from rooftop camping...it may get replaced by the ARR we'll see). Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution** Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 868	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:42:00 - [379] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: facepalm you miss the point on the plates. 99.9% of low slot sales are brick-related. My point is that there's a problem with comparative utility of plates. And with respect, I do not accept your claim that 300HP Scouts slay in PC.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:45:00 - [380] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: facepalm you miss the point on the plates. 99.9% of low slot sales are brick-related. My point is that there's a problem with comparative utility of plates. And with respect, I do not accept your claim that 300HP Scouts slay in PC. refute all you like. lol. where did I say 300 ehp scouts slay? quite the stretch there..almost a misquote. 450-550ehp shotgun scouts are the most dominant fits in PC. Heavies are only better when spammed in blobs. And you can get 500 ehp EASY on all but the min while being completely damped. we've done this before. min scout with 3 extenders (they have more PG than my cal assault FFS) gets 430 ehp. cal get's 530 with 4 extenders. gal lol amarr get's like 600 while being fully damped. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 871	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:47:00 - [381] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: facepalm you miss the point on the plates. 99.9% of low slot sales are brick-related. My point is that there's a problem with comparative utility of plates. And with respect, I do not accept your claim that 300HP Scouts slay in PC. refute all you like. lol. where did I say 300 ehp scouts slay? 450-550ehp shotgun scouts are the most dominant fits in PC. Heavies are only better when spammed in blobs. And you can get 500 ehp EASY on all but the min while being completely damped. Zatara Rought wrote: And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned. By "non-tanked", do you mean GalScouts running two dampeners, right? There's a big spread between 300 and 750, with an optimal value just above one shotgun blast (~500HP, favoring armor). GalScouts happen to work best, since they hit the optimal HP while running at lowest profile. Add penalties to Armor, and you limit the GalScout options from Plate+Plate or Plate+Biotic to a mix of Ferro or Reactive. Average HP declines. Edit: There's a good chance that fixing Heavy blobs will reduce demand for Shotgun Scouts in PC.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17918	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:03:00 - [382] - Quote Espeon Bons wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile Why would codependent skills negate each other? Thats like saying you can have ammo but you cant use a gun, but if you want a gun you cant have ammo. Profile reduction part sounds okay. This is based more along the lines of real world counter play; you either you listen for people squawking or you do the squawking and hope to find them first. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Catgirl White Mage Nekomimi Paradise 26	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:16:00 - [383] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Espeon Bons wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile Why would codependent skills negate each other? Thats like saying you can have ammo but you cant use a gun, but if you want a gun you cant have ammo. Profile reduction part sounds okay. This is based more along the lines of real world counter play; you either you listen for people squawking or you do the squawking and hope to find them first. Unless Rattati is doing something with Scout free role bonuses to Range/Precision/Damp, then I don't see the point of modules having these kind of drawbacks. He wants to bring other suits into the EWAR game but all other suits already have poor Range and Precision, so. . it seems counterproductive to give us a bonus then take it away somewhere else when we didn't have it to begin with.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:25:00 - [384] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned. By "non-tanked", do you mean GalScouts running two dampeners, right? There's a big spread between 300 and 750, with an optimal value just above one shotgun blast (~500HP, favoring armor). GalScouts happen to work best, since they hit the optimal HP while running at lowest profile. Add penalties to Armor, and you limit the GalScout's flexible 3rd and 4th slot options from Plate+Plate or Plate+Biotic to Ferro or Reactive. Average HP declines. Edit: There's an extremely good chance that fixing Heavy blobs will reduce demand for Shotgun Scouts in PC. Yup thought so...misquote. scouts with 300 ehp > better than shittier player skill with 900 =/= 300 ehp scouts slay in PC. Sure, 300 ehp scouts do slay, but it's like the frost kitties who run 2 damps 2 kin kats and 2 extenders on their gal scouts...and i think frost still gets a little more than 300. The norm is 500 ehp fully damped. Non tanked means this...not bricked scouts who don't run damps...ex cal scout using 1-2 plates getting that 530 + another 70 each from reactives..or 150 form a regular complex plate. Or an amarr which obviously can get it's awesome scans and just give up the idea of dampening and use 4 lows to get MORE tank than the gal scout. Or the min can abandon dampening and get 450 ehp on top of it's 430 (with 3 complex extenders) with 3 complex plates. those are lite assaults...and very few run them. three scouts hit 500 ehp as previously shown while being completely damped. the min get's 430 ehp with 3 damps. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:32:00 - [385] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: If Logis are going to get Scout-like Scan Precision and Range, do you think AM/CA Scouts might get 4EQ? Or would that second part be too much like role bleed? If a role is OP and you remove one of it's benefits and give it to another to one that is UP like logi's...and they both become balanced as a result...awesome! Why then would you need to buff them if they are balanced? just make changes that make their bonus worthy but not OP like 4 equip slot scouts. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4832	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:35:00 - [386] - Quote Zat, I'm not sure these are "misquotes" as you so often tout as much as they might be misunderstandings. You did say that, that's not a misquote. That implies malicious intent. Just a thought. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 152	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:38:00 - [387] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: 1. What comes of the MN Scout's bonus if he can't backstab without being detected? Need to see how min scouts being detected at short ranges affects things. Personally I'd like to see the short range be like 8-10 meters max and even with all the range mods in the world they can only get the innermost circle to like 18m-20MAX...open to suggestions. But min can jump like 10 meters while charging knives at crazy fast speeds. And don't tell me about backpedaling...the min scout will walk right into you...ESPECIALLY if you're not an assault suit using nothing but ferroscale for low slot tank. As a dedicate min Knifer (no gun), I'm urge u to run knife only then come back and prove me wrong. - Knife range is 2M, you would be dead before even get under 10M. - No control over midair. Make a wrong move, and you will be a free midair target. - Try it yourself, how long it take to run > uncloak > jump > charge > swing knife after the buggy uncloak delay. - I'm sure you will encounter dead because you can't switch weapon when unclaok and run. - "Walk ONLY" Try it yourself, walk right into any backpedaling enemy, 8 out of 10 you would be dead. FYI: every time you swing knife, your moving speed is drop. So make it count. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 872	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:44:00 - [388] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: If Logis are going to get Scout-like Scan Precision and Range, do you think AM/CA Scouts might get 4EQ? Or would that second part be too much like role bleed? If a role is OP and you remove one of it's benefits and give it to another to one that is UP like logi's...and they both become balanced as a result...awesome! Why then would you need to buff them if they are balanced? just make changes that make their bonus worthy but not OP like 4 equip slot scouts. The above was tongue-in-cheek, but we are going to have to think of something for them. That's part of balance. We can't strip away intended roles off then walk away and hope for the best. What do you think we should do with the CA Scout and AM Scout?
voidfaction Nos Nothi 660	Posted - 2014.12.02 00:58:00 - [389] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile Will this allow for less active cloak range penalty? Not saying removing the penalty just make it not so harsh. Maybe do it the same way so for example an active cloak has 25% precision/range penalty. What about other mods like Light Weapon Damage? Are those going to have any penalties? Should I start learning to run my scout with them to not get a penalty to profile, precision, range, speed, etc etc
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8417	Posted - 2014.12.02 01:06:00 - [390] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: facepalm you miss the point on the plates. 99.9% of low slot sales are brick-related. My point is that there's a problem with comparative utility of plates. And with respect, I do not accept your claim that 300HP Scouts slay in PC. refute all you like. lol. where did I say 300 ehp scouts slay? quite the stretch there..almost a misquote. 450-550ehp shotgun scouts are the most dominant fits in PC. Heavies are only better when spammed in blobs. And you can get 500 ehp EASY on all but the min while being completely damped. we've done this before. min scout with 3 extenders (they have more PG than my cal assault FFS) gets 430 ehp. cal get's 530 with 4 extenders. gal lol amarr get's like 600 while being fully damped. lol 343 shields on a Minmatar scout. I can barely get over 289 while maintaining a decent fit with the tools I need to succeed. My typical PC slaying fit only runs 289/87. Just run a single kincat and damps. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.02 01:58:00 - [391] - Quote Spademan wrote: Zat, I'm not sure these are "misquotes" as you so often tout as much as they might be misunderstandings. You did say that, that's not a misquote. That implies malicious intent. Just a thought. Said what...what on earth are you referring to? That he said I stated 300 ehp scouts could slay? He did NOT find a quote that stated that. He misinterpreted a different quote...there is a distinct difference. lmao please don't argue this. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:02:00 - [392] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: lol 343 shields on a Minmatar scout. I can barely get over 289 while maintaining a decent fit with the tools I need to succeed. My typical PC slaying fit only runs 289/87. Just run a single kincat and damps. moar misinterpretations. with 3 complex extenders you get 340 shields + 90 armor =....tada 430 total ehp. Never said 430 shields alone. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12542	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:09:00 - [393] - Quote A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Kain Spero Goonfeet 3891	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:38:00 - [394] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. Please don't buff the cloak. Your previous numbers looked fine. I'm not sure why a bunch of unconstructive complaining about someone's pet role being affected should be justification to back off a good and balanced proposal. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6280	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:42:00 - [395] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. Please don't buff the cloak. Your previous numbers looked fine. I'm not sure why a bunch of unconstructive complaining about someone's pet role being affected should be justification to back off a good and balanced proposal. I am confused about how wanting to have a role in a balanced setting is considered being a "pet role" and how your comment is any more constructive than the other complaints. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 874	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:14:00 - [396] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. While buffing the cloak active damp bonus would help the MinScout, it could also resurface old problems with uparmored Gallente Scouts. At 15%, one complex damp + proto cloak beats 18dB. That leaves alot of room for GalScout HP tank, which will serve to widen the GalScout usage divide.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6283	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:21:00 - [397] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. While buffing the cloak active damp bonus would help the MinScout, it could also resurface old problems with uparmored Gallente Scouts. At 15%, one complex damp + proto cloak beats 18dB. That leaves alot of room for GalScout HP tank, which will serve to widen the GalScout usage divide. I apologize, but I honestly can't help you with this much more than offering my 2 cents. I'm of the opinion that fixing HP tank and efficacy bonuses would've fixed the Scout. I think the reduced inner circle would be enough to work within Minmatar roles, and we don't need to further increase Gal Scout OPness. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 198	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:03:00 - [398] - Quote So with all the EWAR changes are we finally getting scan precision/range/dampening as part of the suit statistics? as keeping track of all the inter-dependent factors will be a nightmare apologies if this has already been covered but 20 pages long, i wasn't going to read it all
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8423	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:07:00 - [399] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: lol 343 shields on a Minmatar scout. I can barely get over 289 while maintaining a decent fit with the tools I need to succeed. My typical PC slaying fit only runs 289/87. Just run a single kincat and damps. moar misinterpretations. with 3 complex extenders you get 340 shields + 90 armor =....tada 430 total ehp. Never said 430 shields alone. ???? 3 complex shields gives you 343 shields and 87 armor. I also never said that the Min Scout ran 430 shields. I'm saying that most of my fits don't run over 289 shields, and the max I've ever run on a slaying fit has been 308. Are you confusing my post for another or something? Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3891	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:12:00 - [400] - Quote I just hope the design principle for these changes of "Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range" isn't lost in the mix here. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8426	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:15:00 - [401] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Please don't buff the cloak. Your previous numbers looked fine. I'm not sure why a bunch of unconstructive complaining about someone's pet role being affected should be justification to back off a good and balanced proposal. What is wrong with the cloak buff? We pointed out something in the proposal that had a very strong potential to remove two scout suits from PC. Sure, some people went all crazy and whined about it, but what about the ones who went and actually explained what was wrong? Rattati changed the proposal because there was a reason to. Not because he wanted to give in to complaining people to make them stop whining (At least I hope). I mean, I know everyone is salty about OP scouts, but that doesn't give you a reason to clip the wings of two scouts in retaliation. Unless you want this to go the way of AV and Tanks, who literally will never have balance so long as both sides are salty and want nothing more than revenge for the OPness for the last build. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13486	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:42:00 - [402] - Quote Just to remind you what happens when scouts DON'T need to use a significant amount of slots to dampen against even the most powerful of super scanners: 1.8 Rattati, I've seen this happen far too many times. Don't let the Barbershop lobby destroy what will finally put medium frames into the EWAR game. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13487	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:54:00 - [403] - Quote I would also like to point out that once scanned, there is a significant delay before targets show up. That means that the 8m to 11m short range scan that you get with maxed out Range amplifiers is quite useless. It would be like seeing a scout decloak in front of you and insta blap you with a shotgun, you had no time to react, not even a split second. Putting the short range scan would give 4x amplified Logistics suits 16m scan range. Considering that's 4 modules, I don't think it would be unfair. Also, please bring back the long range scans to 130%, there is no reason to undo this besides hiding sentinels. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 722	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:12:00 - [404] - Quote This looks messier and messier each time I see it. What is the goal of these changes in regard to "ewar" overall?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6289	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:27:00 - [405] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Just to remind you what happens when scouts DON'T need to use a significant amount of slots to dampen against even the most powerful of super scanners: 1.8 Rattati, I've seen this happen far too many times. Don't let the Barbershop lobby destroy what will finally put medium frames into the EWAR game. Just to remind you before another bullshit change happens like I've seen too many times in the past. (Cough Cloak Delay would destroy scouts Cough) The "Barbershop Lobby" is not a thing, as many of us often disagree with each other on many aspects. That being said, some of the members have long been advocates for changing to a module efficacy based bonus as opposed to passive bonuses and tanking. In fact, we have often warned against tanking, and I personally have always wanted a cloak delay. Shall I point you to the section before 1.8 even released when many of us said that shooting from cloak was a bad idea? Or to the point in which I advocated for a delay long before Rattati suggested it would be implimented? Or how about how Haerr suggested something similar to the Range nerf while cloaked (which did ruin the cloak for those of us who used it appropriately to begin with)? Get a life Cat Merc. I actually used to like you, but clearly you just want to spread lies and rumor. You are espousing people to have said things that are clearly contradictory to what was actually said for the sake of inflaming anti scout sentiment. It is no way constructive or helpful. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12547	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:39:00 - [406] - Quote Locking this now as we have left the realm of constructive criticism "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2356	Posted - 2014.12.02 06:09:00 - [407] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I would also like to point out that once scanned, there is a significant delay before targets show up. That means that the 8m to 11m short range scan that you get with maxed out Range amplifiers is quite useless. It would be like seeing a scout decloak in front of you and insta blap you with a shotgun, you had no time to react, not even a split second. Putting the short range scan at 30% would give 4x amplified Logistics suits 16m scan range. Considering that's 4 modules, I don't think it would be unfair. Also, please bring back the long range scans to 130%, there is no reason to undo this besides hiding sentinels and giving me less reasons to damp my Assault overall. Remember, these changes are supposed to also mean that putting on 1 damp doesn't feel like a waste, since it still hides you from something, even when everything is super mega powerful scans. And don't even get me started on the medium range scanners, there was no reason to put them down to 50%. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NvGEah45h5jgaUV7OwP1kURkxJeZZtHprWsa6DgSuxE/edit?usp=sharing Agreed about the scan lag, made a post about it in barbershop a while back but if we don't factor in tacnet lag we'll end up with short range scan radius that just doesn't do its job. PSN: RationalSpark
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4926	Posted - 2014.12.02 06:12:00 - [408] - Quote Ive already alerted Rattati that if there is a delay for passive scans being shown then it needs fixed or the scan ranges changed to compensate. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what


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