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Sticky:[Feedback] EWAR Concentric Circle Scan Falloff Design

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19149	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:31:00 - [1] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on. It requires 2 precision mods, from what I am reading. I don't think many assaults will sacrifice two slots so they can scan a shotgunner or knifer at ranges where they're about to have their spleen removed. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19170	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:38:00 - [2] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen. If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers. Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps. It is not even remotely reasonable to demand that someone spend 4 low slots on complex modules to counter the effect of a single bonused module. These are obscene module counts that you are suggesting to counter minor investments by scouts. 4 complex dampeners is utterly crippling to any medium frame - 1 precision enhancer is not. If an Amarr scout is required to throw on just one precision enhancer and then medframes are obligated to spend 4 modules to evade it, the medframes are not going to spend the modules to evade it. To suggest that they would is absurd. That Amarr scout can then comfortably out-tank any medframe stupid enough to try evading scout scans, while maintaining huge EWAR advantages and all the other wonders that scout suits confer. Quote: It is ONLY when you get to scouts with 2 Complex PEs that you begin to have a problem, 'Begin' to have a problem? Quote: as at that point Medium Frames can't beat Amarr scans, BUT you have to consider that Amarr are sacrificing all their High Slots to get this advantage AND that this is their role! Caldari and Minamatar with 2 Complex Precision Enhancers can STILL be beaten with 3 Complex Dampeners. Gallente scans can STILL be beaten, but you have to sacrifice 5 slots for Complex Dampeners to do so, there again Gallente are sacrificing ALL THEIR HIGH SLOTS, and you can STILL beat their scans!! It is ONLY when Caldari and Minmatar sacrifice ALL their High Slots that you cannot beat their scans! Even then, if tied precision/dampening went to the dampener instead of the scanner you could beat them! Oh no, someone is sacrificing two high slots! That's 'ALL THEIR HIGH SLOTS' and you can still beat their scans... If you're mad enough to fit five low slot modules. How can you possibly claim that medframes can compete on the EWAR scene with such utterly mad numbers? Nobody is going to fit that many damps. Nobody. As a scout, you already complain about the crippling effects of being forced to fit two or more dampeners, but you think that fitting five isn't crippling? Quote: TL;DR wrote: There is plenty of room for Medium Frames in the EWAR picture as it currently stands. Simply changing the mechanics such that scanner/dampener ties favored the dampener and not the scanner would go a long way towards increasing the flexibility for EWAR under the current system. No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19175	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:59:00 - [3] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment. That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing. They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so. It was your own assertion that medframes could compete with EWAR, not mine. I haven't said a word about whether they should be able to or not - but your assertion that medframes can compete with scout EWAR is blatantly wrong. Quote: Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so! Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. The rest, in order to use their precision, MUST remain uncloaked, and therefore scanable. If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP. Let's talk about those perceived HP discrepancies. Our scanner will be an Amarr scout with two precision enhancers. For this hypothetical scenario, we'll use a Galscout. Naturally, to evade our scanner, our Galscout will be fully dampened and equipped with a cloak. It only actually needs the cloak to evade short scans, but we'll just ignore that for now. This leaves the Galscout free to fit two complex plates and two complex extenders, leading to a total of approximately 700 EHP. Our second victim will be, say, a Galassault. To avoid the Amarr scout scans it will use 5 dampeners. It won't actually avoid them even on long but let's just consider that a minor detail for now. This enables it to fit three shield extenders, leading to a total of 750 HP. Truly, a massive HP discrepancy and something crippling to the class. 50 HP is so massive we'll just ignore the smaller hitbox of the Galscout, the superior passive scans of the Galscout helping it with other threats, the fact that the Galassault still can't actually evade that scan, the quicker shield recovery of the Galscout, the better equipment flexibility should it choose to forgo the probably unnecessary cloak, etc etc. Also, the Amarr scout can happily tank up while running around with these scans. Before you turn around in indignation again and claim that I am suggesting scouts should be terrible at EWAR or something, let me remind you what I am proving here. Here is a direct quote from you: One Eyed King wrote: There is plenty of room for Medium Frames in the EWAR picture as it currently stands. You are wrong. Medium frames cannot compete with scout EWAR. Whether they should or not is irrelevant - stating that they presently can is simply untrue. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19713	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:45:00 - [4] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Iggy We've entered ZataraLand, and in ZataraLand Scouts only get to hide. Kindly restructure your thinking to account for the new Scout role. Recon is for the Logi. When you return to Dust from Destiny, mind the new meta; Heavy+Logi blobs are already pretty bad, and it looks like they'll be getting a few upgrades. Lol crymoar. ^ Behaving as expected. Congrats are in order. You've succeeded in changing the narrative from "assault lite is bad" to "ewar scouts are bad". Seriously doubt that the numbers support you, but great job on that anyway! You, too, are behaving quite as expected. I'm not going to congratulate you on it though because it has always been your own narrative. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19725	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:35:00 - [5] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: PS: A backpedaling MN Assault is being pursued by MN Scout walking forward. Each second the MN Scout survives, he gains 0.35 meters on the Assault. Closing a gap of 5 meters would require roughly 14 seconds. Assuming the MN Assault is out of ammo, how might this chase pan out if it is being broadcasted to TacNet? A ludicrously specific and flawed scenario. Why would it be broadcast to tacnet? Unless the Minscout is completely undampened and the Minassault is using precision mods, even on short rings the Minscout will go happily undetected. There have been no proposals that would change this. The only way the scout would be being scanned is if he was both improperly fit and a recon unit was nearby/pointing a scanner directly at his location. Frankly, if a Minscout refuses to dampen properly I see no reason why he should be unscannable on short without significant investment. Additionally, if the Minscout needs to close with the Minassault, I should think he would sprint rather than walk. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19727	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:00:00 - [6] - Quote Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. EDIT: Additionally, EWAR should be accessible to suits other than scouts. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19727	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:16:00 - [7] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: [ What I disagree with are Logis sharing passive scans at 18dB from 15m to 40m. This shuts down CQC play for all but Gallente Scouts, this replaces the AM Scout with a Recon Unit which generates constant WP, and this upgrades Heavy+Logi blobs to near omniscience. All scouts can dampen underneath 18dB. Passive scanning this much, even with buffs to logi base stats, would require an immense investment and leave the logi as a glass scanner. Additionally, it would not generate any WP unless you actually mean active scans, in which case I will point out that there are only narrow scan angles and limited uptime on scans. This doesn't upgrade heavy+logi blobs to omniscience any more than the Amarr scout does - the Amarr scout is actually a superior EWAR platform on account of being able to do this while being more dampened and potentially even more tanked than a logi that tries to do this. It is, however, a disgustingly long range to have 360 degree scans at that level of precision which is why I feel that high precision scans should not go out to those distances unless they're active, in which case they have a bucketload of tradeoffs. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19728	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:28:00 - [8] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: 3 cPEs = 18dB. 3 slots might be alot for a Scout, but it certainly isn't alot to a Logi. We are very much stepping on the toes of the Recon Scout. CA Scout and AM Scout will be left without role. 18dB at 15m, not 40m. Amarr scouts can scan far better than even the most stacked EWAR logi. If anything is going to invalidate scouts sneaking up on people, it is 13dB scans which are nigh on unavoidable except in the most extreme edge case (Galscout with 4 complex dampeners and a proto cloak active). 18dB scans can be evaded by all scouts - 13dB scouts are practically unavoidable. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19730	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:42:00 - [9] - Quote I think reducing the inner ring size is more likely to harm the Amarr scout than harm the logi. If a scout wishes to evade the logi short scans, it can be done - not so in the case of the Amarr scout, which is where its role comes into play. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19731	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:52:00 - [10] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think reducing the inner ring size is more likely to harm the Amarr scout than harm the logi. If a scout wishes to evade the logi short scans, it can be done - not so in the case of the Amarr scout, which is where its role comes into play. The AM Scout doesn't need more than 18dB. Units getting flanked and killed from behind is a part of the game. Its why Scouts double and triple stack damps instead of running straight HP (like everyone else). You mean, it shouldn't have better than 18dB? It can quite definitely use it and it gives it a defined role in its own scanning - which is what you wanted, yes? Incidentally, I'm a little baffled by your extreme anti-'king HP' complaints. On one hand, you complain that everyone is stacking HP and EWAR should be more viable. On the other, should a non-scout become a potentially serious EWAR threat, it immediately becomes the target of a series of complaints about its EWAR strength even though it is still outperformed by a scout. Stealth play is not going to happen for medium frames unless passive scanning across the board takes a truly gigantic nerf. Even then, that wouldn't result in assaults fitting more damps than plates/reps. There is never going to be a point at which more people fit EWAR mods than HP mods simply because of the way the EWAR system works. I feel that usage of non-HP mods should be encouraged, but I really don't understand how you think this should be done. I give you a challenge. Suggest a solution which would bring the market share of EWAR mods up to 30%, without making every single player in the game a scout. I'm going to leave you with that until tomorrow, because for now I am off to bed. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.

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