And HP should be accessible to suits other than heavies.

That doesn't mean that Light and Medium frames should be near to on par with Heavies.

This game so far is EWAR vs HP.

Right now, HP is winning.

These changes are complex. The greater the complexity, the greater the chance for errors and massive problems. If done incorrectly, these changes will negate entire roles. That could be Assaults, it could be scouts.

500 hp is a lot when you and your squad can literally see everyone.

All scouts can dampen underneath 18dB.

Passive scanning this much, even with buffs to logi base stats, would require an immense investment and leave the logi as a glass scanner. Additionally, it would not generate any WP unless you actually mean active scans, in which case I will point out that there are only narrow scan angles and limited uptime on scans.

This doesn't upgrade heavy+logi blobs to omniscience any more than the Amarr scout does - the Amarr scout is actually a superior EWAR platform on account of being able to do this while being more dampened and potentially even more tanked than a logi that tries to do this.

It is, however, a disgustingly long range to have 360 degree scans at that level of precision which is why I feel that high precision scans should not go out to those distances unless they're active, in which case they have a bucketload of tradeoffs.

EDIT: Wait, how did this logi get 18dB scans out to 40m? This is not a thing, even under the most stacked logi with the new proposals.

3 cPEs = 18dB. 3 slots might be alot for a Scout, but it certainly isn't alot to a Logi.

We are very much stepping on the toes of the Recon Scout.
CA Scout and AM Scout will be left without role.

THIS is where we agree completely.

Hence why passive scan ranges being nerfed is a huge priority now.

I think reducing the inner ring size is more likely to harm the Amarr scout than harm the logi. If a scout wishes to evade the logi short scans, it can be done - not so in the case of the Amarr scout, which is where its role comes into play.

The AM Scout doesn't need more than 18dB. Units getting flanked and killed from behind is a part of the game. Its why Scouts double and triple stack damps instead of running straight HP (like everyone else).

You mean, it shouldn't have better than 18dB?
It can quite definitely use it and it gives it a defined role in its own scanning - which is what you wanted, yes?

Incidentally, I'm a little baffled by your extreme anti-'king HP' complaints. On one hand, you complain that everyone is stacking HP and EWAR should be more viable. On the other, should a non-scout become a potentially serious EWAR threat, it immediately becomes the target of a series of complaints about its EWAR strength even though it is still outperformed by a scout.

So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff?

*snip*

With these changes, the main offender here will be (Once again) Logistics suits. They have lots of slots to use these juicy new eWAR modules.

Take the Cal Logi. Give it 4x Precision and 4x Range. What happens? You might be easily seen, but guess what? NOBODY is getting within 42m of you without 3 damps and a cloak. Now, lets say that this Logi is just sitting in a corner and scanning in PC (Which will happen).

*snip*

It'll take a long time for me to reverse engineer your chart.
What are your specific base values (inputs)?
What other changes are you proposing?

In 1.7 I ran 2 or 3 complex damps on my logi suits.

Very few Scouts don't run 2 tank modules.

And currently...as I said..the numbers are quite clear that unless facing a BLOB of heavies...a single operant scout is the most deadly suit in the game...with 3 complex shield extenders a min scout hits 430 EHP with innates. amarr scout hits like close to 600 with 3 complex reactive.

And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned.

I'm sorry, but so far...min maxing HP (heavies) AND e-war (scouts) are winning.

Fact is shotgun scouts are quite deadly to heavies and an iwin button to everything else aside from rooftop campers if you don't have an uplink..and the only place they aren't is blobs, which is when re's are more useful.

But do not mistake it. The data affirms in competitive meta...the scout is the most useful/versatile suit...the heavy suit is good for blobbing.

How to Fix:

1. Rewire Scout bonuses to efficacy.
2. Add meaningful drawbacks to Armor Plates; the lighter the unit, the steeper the drawback.
3. Reduce HP payout of all Armor Plate types (including Ferro and Reactive).
4. Remedy fire-from-cloak and maintain decloak requirement in advance of attack.

What Happens:

King HP - Brick pays slightly less utility to non-Scouts, making slightly more attractive other low-slot module types.

GalScout - Now needs two damps to accomplish what he could previously accomplish with one. Will opt for ferroscale or reactive plates to avoid penalty. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline.

CalScout - Now needs two damps to accomplish what he could previously accomplish with one. Must choose between strength at Scan Range or strength at Scan Profile. Will always opt for Assault over opting to run plates. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline.

MN Scout - No change. None needed.

AM Scout - No change in highs. Greater incentive to run range or biotics in lows. Average HP per unit declines. Odds of successful takedown and escape decline.

PS: A backpedaling MN Assault is being pursued by MN Scout walking forward. Each second the MN Scout survives, he gains 0.35 meters on the Assault. Closing a gap of 5 meters would require roughly 14 seconds. Assuming the MN Assault is out of ammo, how might this chase pan out if it is being broadcasted to TacNet?

Here is the final proposal.

It is heavily based off of the community feedback, but Cat Merc's combination of Planetary Conquest meta review and thoughtful spreadsheet was exceptional. Thanks everyone, especially those that posed "this should be scanned by this" were very good for those last "yeah, that makes really good sense" tweaks.

Final Numbers

Here are a few collected guidelines from the community and CCP:

Design Principles
Lvl 5 precision Assault should scan lvl 5 scouts in close
Assault should scan undampened sentinels in long
Close Range should be long enough and strong enough to matter
Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module
Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill
To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile
Not changing Scout base numbers at all; this round
One dampener should get Mediums some benefit
One precision should get Mediums some benefit
One amplifier should get Mediums some benefit
Lvl 5 Short Medium Precision should scan Prototype Equipment
3X dampening on Sentinel should get good benefit
No Directional Arrow on Minimap
Adding properly calculated EWAR stats to fittings screen
Commando should have better sig profile (-5) than Sentinel, Sentinel has better precision (+5) - skirmisher vs point defense
Assault should have better sig profile (-5) than Logi, Same Precision, Logi has better range
Sentinels need one Precision to scan down PRO Remote Explosives
Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range

Standard Scanner scans Standard Equipment
Advanced Scanner scans Advanced Equipment
Prototype Scanner scans Prototype Equipment

For later discussion
Scouts get redefined with efficacy, possibly other attributes
Active Scanners
Vehicle Scanners
Uplinks with different Scan Precision
Size of Dot or intensity is based on profile, combined with precision penalty
Action influenced profile
passive bonus to cloak, higher when active, helps make it useful after "decloak delay"
Cross bonuses/penalties (range and precision,etc)
Range Amps to High
Extenders and/or Plates add signature profile
Special Spy Uplinks
Changes to Gallogi/Cloak and Focused Scanners go hand in hand

The data that Rattati showed from PC had the top 2 spots going to heavies, with Gal Scout in 3rd.

What about the other scouts? Rattati says Cal scouts are OP, and I believe him (but to my mind that has more to do with straffing, which is broken for everyone, not just Caldari Scouts).

I would love to see a more comprehensive list.

Not to mention that a lot of what makes the Gal Scout so HP/EWAR versatile is the passive vs module efficacy bonus, which I would have loved to have seen implimented before the EWAR rings.

I do not argue that there are problems. I do not even always argue that they are different problems (though if you tell me Minmatar are OP you better show me some data to back such an insane idea).

What I argue is that the "fixes" are not fixing the real problems, and are further creating imbalances rather than reducing them.

*facepalm* you miss the point on the plates.

99.9% of low slot sales are brick-related. My point is that there's a problem with comparative utility of plates.

And with respect, I do not accept your claim that 300HP Scouts slay in PC.

refute all you like. lol. where did I say 300 ehp scouts slay?

450-550ehp shotgun scouts are the most dominant fits in PC. Heavies are only better when spammed in blobs.

And you can get 500 ehp EASY on all but the min while being completely damped.

And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned.

Why would codependent skills negate each other? Thats like saying you can have ammo but you cant use a gun, but if you want a gun you cant have ammo. Profile reduction part sounds okay.

This is based more along the lines of real world counter play; you either you listen for people squawking or you do the squawking and hope to find them first.

By "non-tanked", do you mean GalScouts running two dampeners, right? There's a big spread between 300 and 750, with an optimal value just above one shotgun blast (~500HP, favoring armor). GalScouts happen to work best, since they hit the optimal HP while running at lowest profile.

Add penalties to Armor, and you limit the GalScout's flexible 3rd and 4th slot options from Plate+Plate or Plate+Biotic to Ferro or Reactive. Average HP declines.

Edit: There's an extremely good chance that fixing Heavy blobs will reduce demand for Shotgun Scouts in PC.

If Logis are going to get Scout-like Scan Precision and Range, do you think AM/CA Scouts might get 4EQ? Or would that second part be too much like role bleed?

1. What comes of the MN Scout's bonus if he can't backstab without being detected?

Need to see how min scouts being detected at short ranges affects things. Personally I'd like to see the short range be like 8-10 meters max and even with all the range mods in the world they can only get the innermost circle to like 18m-20MAX...open to suggestions. But min can jump like 10 meters while charging knives at crazy fast speeds. And don't tell me about backpedaling...the min scout will walk right into you...ESPECIALLY if you're not an assault suit using nothing but ferroscale for low slot tank.

If a role is OP and you remove one of it's benefits and give it to another to one that is UP like logi's...and they both become balanced as a result...awesome!

Why then would you need to buff them if they are balanced? just make changes that make their bonus worthy but not OP like 4 equip slot scouts.

Amps decrease Precision
Precision reduces range

Both increase Profile

refute all you like. lol. where did I say 300 ehp scouts slay? quite the stretch there..almost a misquote.

450-550ehp shotgun scouts are the most dominant fits in PC. Heavies are only better when spammed in blobs.

And you can get 500 ehp EASY on all but the min while being completely damped. we've done this before.

min scout with 3 extenders (they have more PG than my cal assault FFS) gets 430 ehp.

cal get's 530 with 4 extenders.

gal lol

amarr get's like 600 while being fully damped.