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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4862
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Posted - 2014.11.17 16:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:I really like the differences in precision values and I think this has the potential to change things up quite a bit.
But I have the feeling that without base scan radius changes this new system, while looking really cool in regards to the db values, would not change gameplay too much.
At ranges of <10m you are almost in hand-to-hand combat range, and at these ranges you are probably dead before your better precision will help you.
So my proposal would be to make the short range modifier 30% and set base scan radius to 15m for all suits. This means that we'd end up at almost 10m short range scan radius if 1x amplifier is equipped. I definitely agree on changing base for all suits to 15m.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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iWanderer
PT-BR
10
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Posted - 2014.11.17 16:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
15m range base for assaults could work batter against scouts. 15m is the the new scout proposed medium range |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4863
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Posted - 2014.11.17 17:50:00 -
[63] - Quote
iWanderer wrote:15m range base for assaults could work batter against scouts. 15m is the the new scout proposed medium range I am fine with that, actually. Scouts probably should have longer range, but Assaults definitely need more than 10m base range.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION
2558
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Posted - 2014.11.17 17:52:00 -
[64] - Quote
I realize that it's not possible to have a gradual precision curve and that precision radii have to occur in hard-defined bands. I assume this is largely for performance reasons. I do wonder if it would be possible to introduce an element of randomness in the current proposal. Calls to rand() are pretty efficient and it might make things more interesting. So these values of your proposal would affect the chance of success/failure.
Also some players have been advocating for buffing Sentinel's Ewar. I'm very much against this. IMO sentinels are supposed to be absolute beasts in their optimals, with huge EHP and DPS. The trade off is they're supposed to be dependent on support and slow. If we make it so scouts aren't good at killing sentinels in CQC via buffs to the heavy's precision and scan radius, then we're going to see even more heavy spam. Keep them blind in, and make them dependent on squad mates' passive/active scans for Ewar.
Edit: I forgot to mention, overall I love this direction. Great work CCP Rattati!
Best PvE idea ever!
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
849
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Posted - 2014.11.17 17:54:00 -
[65] - Quote
1. I like the basic design. It really helps breaking the binary nature of eWar. On the other hand that makes the system relatively hard to understand unless you read a wiki-article on it. In general I absolutely support the design.
2. I agree with the general layout of the three scan areas. Ranges at 25, 75 and 100% and precision modifiers at 90, 100 and 110, to be specific. That means an enhanced dampener puts you from the far scan range to the close one. This seems appropriate for a start. It is important that the radius of increased precision (short range) is comparatively small so we don't influence the Scout meta too heavily.
3. The design states that 100% scan range coincides with 110% precision. This equals a 10% precision nerf across the boardt. I support this because I like the game better with less eWar. However I'd still like to point this out so other people may voice their probably deviating - and wrong - opinion. |
Kaeru Nayiri
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
181
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:18:00 -
[66] - Quote
I am very glad to see this idea come to fruition, good work CCP and most of all Rattati.
I know you probably want to bring down scan ranges across the board and see this as an opportunity to at least dumb down everyone's current max scan range by 10%. If that's the case, I agree with the numbers you propose for ranges, but I would buff the inner most circle to 80% instead of 90% Precision. Just to give people more accuracy in their absolute immediate area.
To be clear: 80% precision inner most circle (is 85% a better compromise?) 100% precision middle circle 110% precision outer most circle.
+1 on prepare to be patient, take it easy guys. |
JIAF-PR
113
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:22:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Dear players, When we added the additional Vehicle Awareness Circle in 1.9, a new code logic was implemented that allowed different passive scan settings. After posting the EWAR ideas thread, the community proposed using these to mimic dynamic precision falloff. I had asked for the same thing in the past, and was told it was too difficult and number intensive to do. Well, the good news is, that we have managed to do exactly this in code. I have been pretty coy about it until we properly QA'd it, but today was a success of demonstrating dropsuits of various roles, and module combinations, moving in and out of these passive ranges, demonstrating fairly dynamic behavior. The system is fairly straightforward. We define the "absolute value" of each dropsuit's Passive Scan with Precision, Profile and Range. (We have this already defined) We define one smaller circle and another larger circle using a Range modifier. We then define the Precision within these two new circles, using a Precision modifier. Done. See this simplified picture: [img]http://puu.sh/cUhwi/f10bd82636.png[/img] We retain the current meta in the middle circle where everything is as it was. At other ranges, things are quite different. In theory, we have completely moved out of the GÇ£scanned versus not scannedGÇ¥ meta and into a much changed EWAR environment, where everyone and anyone can utilize any of the EWAR modules to some extent, further reinforcing the GÇ£waves of opportunityGÇ¥ game design principle. A Sentinel trading a few lows for a few meters of very strong Precision, an Assault using a Dampener or two to get into through long and even medium range, etc. You get the picture. Now for the numbers. We are in uncharted territory, if you will, the combinations of dropsuits and modules, who scans whom, how and when. I asked our resident EWAR expert, Haerr to setup a dynamic spreadsheet where the final numbers can be browsed, with the exact number of complex modules needed to evade scans at different scan radii. We donGÇÖt have those numbers nailed down yet, but we have the framework to discuss them here. In this spreadsheet we have some preliminary numbers to play with. Those can and will be changed. There may be other changes that are deemed necessary, such as Scout Skills (Amarr, Caldari, Gallente), Dropsuit Skills (all 3) or even Modules (looking at you mr. Amplifier). This is all, we believe, for the greater good of DUST 514. The CPM has called for it, the Community has called for it and CCP has wanted it for a long time. LetGÇÖs discuss calmly and have a bit of fun with this. ItGÇÖs not every day a big change like this can shake up the meta.
I think the image have the % of efficency inverted in the presicion scale; I would like to see the Long range presicion in 80%, the medium in 100% and the short in 120%.
I would make some changes to the suits base numbers as:
- I would put all dropsuit base radius on 17m with exception of the Scout and the Sentinel I would put them on 20m.
- Assault suit base profile on 45dB
- Commando suit base precision and base profile on 55dB.
- Scout suit base profile on 40dB.
- For Scout balance I would put the codebreaker in the High slots to do the MinScout more competitive, because the MinScout is the only Scout without eWar bonus (radius, precision or profile);
- And an increase the sprint speed of MinScout a 0.09m/s
I'm a MinScout, sorry if I.m trying give some power to him.
Quote:Pienso que la imagen tiene los % invertidos en la escala de presicion; Me gustaría ver la precision en largo alcance en 80%, en medio 100% y en corto 120% Yo le haría algunos cambios a los números base de los trajes:
- Le pondría a todos los trajes su radio base en 17m con excepción de el Explorador y el Centinela que los pondría en 20m.
- Trajes Combate sus emisiones base en 45dB.
- Traje Comando su precisión base y sus emisiones base en 55dB.
- Traje Explorador sus emisiones base en 40dB.
- Para balancear los Exploradores pondría los descodificadores en los modulos de alta potencia para hacer el Explorador Minmatar mas competitivo, porque es el único Explorador sin bonificación de eWar (alcance, precision o emisiones)
For Scout balance I would put the codebreaker in the High slots to do the MinScout more competitive, because the MinScout is the only Scout without eWar bonus (radius, precision or profile); and
- Y un aumento en la velocidad de correr del Explorador Minmatar de 0.09m/s
Soy un Explorador Minmatar, disculpas si estoy tratando de darle algo de poder.
"Los grandes no son grandes sino porque estamos de rodillas. Levantémonos"
GÇô Pedro Albizu Campos
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
304
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
iWanderer wrote:15m range base for assaults could work batter against scouts. 15m is the the new scout proposed medium range
Scan Falloff and MedFrame EWAR Improvement are both fantastic ideas. I'd like to see both implemented, but whether one is implemented before, during or after the other will be of little long-term consequence.
Hooray for both, whenever they come.
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
7247
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:26:00 -
[69] - Quote
First of all (and yes this is warranting of all caps)
****ING THANK YOU
Now that that burst of emphatic glee is out of the way.
I love this change, honestly. It's exactly what I had in mind as far as an 'uncertainty' factor when it comes to EWAR because it is entirely too binary. However, the numbers are far off from adding anything of the sort to that uncertainty factor when it takes dramatically more range/amplifier modules to hunt down problem scouts by comparison to how many dampeners and inherent skill bonuses they receive.
I feel I have a really elegant solution though I'm not sure if it's entirely possible: Adding cross bonuses to amplifiers and range enhancers. I.E: If I have a range enhancer (dunno the numbers by heart so bear with me) which gives me 45% increased range as well as 5-10% better precision. This takes some of the edge of having to stack -so many- modules without having to go back and change too many base numbers one the suits/modules.
Alternatively, without strictly speaking numbers, I do echo a lot of the sentiment other players in the community are saying in that scan ranges need to be furthered out a bit to be more useful. 15m isn't enough, anything within that radius has already seen you and is likely already shooting you. Precision needs to be looked at as well so that it's more useful as it's too difficult to try and make useful when considering range restrictions. The inevitable flaw with trying to go EWAR is that it's not going to help you if you're already dead, so there needs to be a decent balance.
Essentially, we need more of the Rock Paper Scissors aspects. HP/Recovery/EWAR/Damage, in this case. You can specialize and be really good at it but be lacking in the other departments, or go for a well rounded balance. Tanking preference has a lot to do with it as well; Shield tankers will inherently be better at dampening as they can fit both HP/Recovery and Dampening; whereas Armor tankers will be better at Precision because... Well. It's the only module they can put in their high slots outside of damage modules to complement their HP/Recovery.
I don't think this can be solved without cross bonuses as I stated above or individually going in and changing the suits' base EWAR capabilities at the -RACIAL- level and not just at the -CLASS- level.
Long-Term Roadmap
This Player is Against Proto BPOs
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Cass Caul
1583
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:29:00 -
[70] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on.
It requires 2 precision mods, from what I am reading. I don't think many assaults will sacrifice two slots so they can scan a shotgunner or knifer at ranges where they're about to have their spleen removed. I used to but that was because scouts only used 1 basic module back in 1.7 so i needed 3 to scan proto scouts
On Hiatus.
This is my smartphone alt
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matsumoto yuichi san
The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance
82
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:42:00 -
[71] - Quote
ran some numbers via the sheet,
assault range -> 15 assault profile -> 45 assault precision -> 45 logi profile -> 45 logi precision ->40 commando precision ->50
and 75% precision at 25% range, 100% precision at 75% range 125% precision at 100% range seems to work very nicely
if a medium fits NO ew and a scout fits NO ew the scout pops up on close, but if the scout fits a damp he is pretty far ahead, but a medium with 2 precision mods can spot him still on close
seems a decent trade off
also the medium - medium play looks ok, heavies don't work as well but seems workable as well, i like the curves really, in terms of it's hard for any suit to fit enough mods they are ALWAYS invisible, or ALWAYS see everyone
http://goo.gl/JNGFOJ
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Terry Webber
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
494
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:00:00 -
[72] - Quote
Shouldn't the chances of being detected increase the closer you get instead of the opposite? It seems to me that the picture and spreadsheet have the wrong stats. |
matsumoto yuichi san
The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance
82
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:06:00 -
[73] - Quote
Terry Webber wrote:Shouldn't the chances of being detected increase the closer you get instead of the opposite? It seems to me that the picture and spreadsheet have the wrong stats.
the probability of detect does go up.
precision going down implies better detection of the enemy if their profile is static. :P |
Iron Toast
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
I think range extenders should be a fixed distance in the 10-15 m range (for complex). Changing this would allow a buff to medium suit (and commando?) precision while keeping their range very small. Medium suits then must use range extenders and possibly additional precision to make use of it.
I prefer adding uncertainty in EWAR through additional modules that change the information shown on tac-net, such as decoys / displacement of position / jammers. |
Terry Webber
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
494
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
matsumoto yuichi san wrote:Terry Webber wrote:Shouldn't the chances of being detected increase the closer you get instead of the opposite? It seems to me that the picture and spreadsheet have the wrong stats. the probability of detect does go up. precision going down implies better detection of the enemy if their profile is static. :P So precision is actually stronger in close range where the number is low and weaker at long range where the number is high? Also how does the precision vs. dampening mechanic work exactly? I'm sort of unclear on that. |
matsumoto yuichi san
The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance
83
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:30:00 -
[76] - Quote
Terry Webber wrote:matsumoto yuichi san wrote:Terry Webber wrote:Shouldn't the chances of being detected increase the closer you get instead of the opposite? It seems to me that the picture and spreadsheet have the wrong stats. the probability of detect does go up. precision going down implies better detection of the enemy if their profile is static. :P So precision is actually stronger in close range where the number is low and weaker at long range where the number is high? Also how does the precision vs. dampening mechanic work exactly? I'm sort of unclear on that.
yes
the math is if precision <= profile you are detected
so lower profile than precision invisible, lower precision than profile detected.
damps thus lower profile making you harder to detect. |
Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
307
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:31:00 -
[77] - Quote
Terry Webber wrote: Also how does the precision vs. dampening mechanic work exactly? I'm sort of unclear on that.
If a hunter's Scan Precision is less than or equal to the hunted's Scant Profile, then the hunter will see the hunted on TacNet (so long as the hunted is within the hunter's Scan Range). Whether hunting and hunted, the lower your dB value, the better. Profile Dampeners (and related skills) improve/decrease your Scan Profile. Precision Enhancers (and related skills) improve/decrease your Scan Precision. |
Terry Webber
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
494
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:35:00 -
[78] - Quote
Now I understand. Thanks for clearing things up. This proposal would make EWAR a lot more interesting. |
The-Errorist
SVER True Blood
899
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 19:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers Also, I see the Commandos' scan precision is 60dB. I think this would be better if it were 55dB. The commando fulfills a similar role to the assault. They have a limited slot layout so fitting EWAR modules is very difficult for them. I don't believe it should be quite as good as the assaults' scan precision, but at least make it on par with senitnels'. Based on this thread, it looks like Commando will get a better sig profile (-5) than current Sentinels and Sentinels will have better precision (+5) - skirmisher vs point defense.
MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
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Spectral Clone
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3140
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:38:00 -
[80] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote: I think giving Assaults the tools to be Scout Hunters is what is needed.
Yep.
EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
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Spectral Clone
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3140
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:40:00 -
[81] - Quote
Crazy idea: 1. Dampeners reduce your scan range. 2. Range amps reduce your precision. 3. Precision enhancers reduce your scan range.
eWAR solved for ever.
EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
308
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:42:00 -
[82] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Crazy idea: 1. Dampeners reduce your scan range. 2. Range amps reduce your precision. 3. Precision enhancers reduce your scan range.
eWAR solved for ever.
Because people are spamming EWAR modules. Or they might. We better nerf 'em.
(All Hail King HP.) |
Spectral Clone
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3140
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:44:00 -
[83] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Spectral Clone wrote:Crazy idea: 1. Dampeners reduce your scan range. 2. Range amps reduce your precision. 3. Precision enhancers reduce your scan range.
eWAR solved for ever. Because people are spamming EWAR modules. Or they might. We better nerf 'em. (All Hail King HP.)
This makes sense from a physics perspective also, if you think about it.
Buff eWAR modules, but make them have drawbacks also. Perhaps a complex range amp give you +100% range, but increase your base precision by 10 dB or something?
(3) is already implemented for the cloak, so why wouldnt passive profile damp modules follow that model?
EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
972
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:50:00 -
[84] - Quote
Base Modifiers: Short Range: 60% range; 85% precision Long Range: 140% range; 115% precision
Scouts Profile 40 Precision 45 Range 15
Assault Profile 45 Precision 50 Range 15
Logistics Profile 55 Precision 45 Range 20
Commando Profile 55 Precision 50 Range 15
Sentinel Profile 60 Precision 50 Range 10
Why: Firstly, the two new radii need to be significantly different from the base stats, otherwise we'll see no difference in effective gameplay. A 15% precision difference is an advanced module each way: this gives the worse precision the opportunity to scan the lower profiles without ridiculous sacrifice, while the reduction gives the higher profiles the potential to move about without being immediately noticed.
The range difference again needs to be noticeable. A 40% change from base is hefty, but with the relatively low numbers (10m - 20m) we are working with, a sizeable proportion is needed. 40% means that even a 10m base without skills gives a reasonable radius, especially if combined with the possible changes to plates/extenders giving EWar penalties.
Reducing the Scout radius slightly gives them something that they are capable, but are not utterly dominant, at while we can give another role that advantage without the same profile/precision advantages. Similarly, this also stops the CalScout bonus from perma-scanning everything in an enormous area.
Increasing the base radius of all suits to a minimum of 15m means that all can take advantage of range amplifiers to some degree. The alterations to profile mean that some sacrifice is required to avoid most scans when in the optimal range, but long range scans are avoidable without too much sacrifice.
My thoughts are that if EWar is to be improved, more people should be scanning similar enemies, such that Dampeners give a substantial advantage in line with their HP trade-off. Either you tank up and get scanned more easily, or you sacrifice and have an advantage against the tougher opponent.
That's my two pence anyway. I have made a spreadsheet full of the numbers I've suggested, though it's not even vaguely as complex (or good) as Haerr's.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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shaman oga
The Dunwich Horror
3217
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:59:00 -
[85] - Quote
Let me know if i'm wrong. From what i understand you have 3 chances (1 chance for each circle) of scanning someone else, the more one get close, the higher are the chance to scan him.
Is it like that? |
Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens Capital Punishment.
374
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Posted - 2014.11.17 20:14:00 -
[86] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on.
It requires 2 precision mods, from what I am reading. I don't think many assaults will sacrifice two slots so they can scan a shotgunner or knifer at ranges where they're about to have their spleen removed.
^
All this sounds good, Awesome!
As of now the strongest dynamic of ewar (or lack of) is all classes vs scouts, it's great to have more dynamism between non scout classes and vehicles sure, but from what I see with the current numbers, it won't help us much where it hurts the most other classes vs scouts.
I can't digest the whole new system yet and I just quickly narrowed my view to what I usually run: Assault and how it could help me out vs scouts. Assuming all 5th level skills,
If I add a complex precision (32.40 dB) I won't be able to see an undampened scout even at short range (3.75m)? usually a scout has speeds close to 10m/s, having the capacity to close into knife or shotgun range in less then a second makes any attempt to passively scan them pointless.
I'd need to add two complex precision modules (29.74 dB) and a range amplifier to scan one at medium range (16.31 m) and I'm talking about an undampened scout which can realistically close the distance in less than 2 seconds. This is highly unappealing since while still being an easy target to scouts, now I'd be an easier target for pretty much anything else
In my opinion, we need something more like rock paper scissors.
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
308
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Posted - 2014.11.17 20:16:00 -
[87] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:Let me know if i'm wrong. From what i understand you have 3 chances (1 chance for each circle) of scanning someone else, the more one get close, the higher are the chance to scan him.
Is it like that?
"Chances" sounds like a dice roll or opportunity. Such as Heavies gets three chances to respond to Shotgun Scouts before dying. These mechanics are less like chances and more like concentric circles, wherein the innermost ring has higher intensity scans than the outermost. |
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2869
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Posted - 2014.11.17 20:17:00 -
[88] - Quote
Great, just nerf the scan precision of the amarr scout bonus to 4% so that I can still knife them, and well be good.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
2574
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Posted - 2014.11.17 20:17:00 -
[89] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:Let me know if i'm wrong. From what i understand you have 3 chances (1 chance for each circle) of scanning someone else, the more one get close, the higher are the chance to scan him.
Is it like that? No.
Each suit has a decibel (dB) value for both profile (being scanned) and precision (scanning; active scanners also have dB values). When the profile dB is less than the precision dB, you're not scanned. When precision is equal or lower, you are scanned. Therefore scans are an "all-or-none" mechanic, either you are or your aren't.
Currently, passive scans have a consistent dB reading the full range, so my 90m passive scanning Cal Scout will have the same dB reading across the whole distance. What this change will do is make my passive scans at the last 25% of my range be 10% less accurate (110% dB reading), while the nearest 25% distance be 10% stronger (90% dB reading).
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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Kaeru Nayiri
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
185
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Posted - 2014.11.17 21:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Crazy idea: 1. Dampeners reduce your scan range. 2. Range amps reduce your precision. 3. Precision enhancers increase your Profile.
eWAR solved for ever.
fixed for better rock paper scissors |
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