DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] EWAR Concentric Circle Scan Falloff Design

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive:

The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus.

And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to.

Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC.

Amplifier Modules to 25% per level

Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60%

With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range.

Reserving for immediate action if necessary
Reducing Precision Module Modifier
Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision
Reducing Caldari native Scout Range
Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening

The updated proposal.

While buffing the cloak active damp bonus would help the MinScout, it could also resurface old problems with uparmored Gallente Scouts. At 15%, one complex damp + proto cloak beats 18dB. That leaves alot of room for GalScout HP tank, which will serve to widen the GalScout usage divide.

I apologize, but I honestly can't help you with this much more than offering my 2 cents. I'm of the opinion that fixing HP tank and efficacy bonuses would've fixed the Scout.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.02 01:58:00 - [391] - Quote Spademan wrote: Zat, I'm not sure these are "misquotes" as you so often tout as much as they might be misunderstandings. You did say that, that's not a misquote. That implies malicious intent. Just a thought. Said what...what on earth are you referring to? That he said I stated 300 ehp scouts could slay? He did NOT find a quote that stated that. He misinterpreted a different quote...there is a distinct difference. lmao please don't argue this. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:02:00 - [392] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: lol 343 shields on a Minmatar scout. I can barely get over 289 while maintaining a decent fit with the tools I need to succeed. My typical PC slaying fit only runs 289/87. Just run a single kincat and damps. moar misinterpretations. with 3 complex extenders you get 340 shields + 90 armor =....tada 430 total ehp. Never said 430 shields alone. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12542	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:09:00 - [393] - Quote A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Kain Spero Goonfeet 3891	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:38:00 - [394] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. Please don't buff the cloak. Your previous numbers looked fine. I'm not sure why a bunch of unconstructive complaining about someone's pet role being affected should be justification to back off a good and balanced proposal. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6280	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:42:00 - [395] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. Please don't buff the cloak. Your previous numbers looked fine. I'm not sure why a bunch of unconstructive complaining about someone's pet role being affected should be justification to back off a good and balanced proposal. I am confused about how wanting to have a role in a balanced setting is considered being a "pet role" and how your comment is any more constructive than the other complaints. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 874	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:14:00 - [396] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. While buffing the cloak active damp bonus would help the MinScout, it could also resurface old problems with uparmored Gallente Scouts. At 15%, one complex damp + proto cloak beats 18dB. That leaves alot of room for GalScout HP tank, which will serve to widen the GalScout usage divide.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6283	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:21:00 - [397] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. While buffing the cloak active damp bonus would help the MinScout, it could also resurface old problems with uparmored Gallente Scouts. At 15%, one complex damp + proto cloak beats 18dB. That leaves alot of room for GalScout HP tank, which will serve to widen the GalScout usage divide. I apologize, but I honestly can't help you with this much more than offering my 2 cents. I'm of the opinion that fixing HP tank and efficacy bonuses would've fixed the Scout. I think the reduced inner circle would be enough to work within Minmatar roles, and we don't need to further increase Gal Scout OPness. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 198	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:03:00 - [398] - Quote So with all the EWAR changes are we finally getting scan precision/range/dampening as part of the suit statistics? as keeping track of all the inter-dependent factors will be a nightmare apologies if this has already been covered but 20 pages long, i wasn't going to read it all
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8423	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:07:00 - [399] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: lol 343 shields on a Minmatar scout. I can barely get over 289 while maintaining a decent fit with the tools I need to succeed. My typical PC slaying fit only runs 289/87. Just run a single kincat and damps. moar misinterpretations. with 3 complex extenders you get 340 shields + 90 armor =....tada 430 total ehp. Never said 430 shields alone. ???? 3 complex shields gives you 343 shields and 87 armor. I also never said that the Min Scout ran 430 shields. I'm saying that most of my fits don't run over 289 shields, and the max I've ever run on a slaying fit has been 308. Are you confusing my post for another or something? Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3891	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:12:00 - [400] - Quote I just hope the design principle for these changes of "Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range" isn't lost in the mix here. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8426	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:15:00 - [401] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Please don't buff the cloak. Your previous numbers looked fine. I'm not sure why a bunch of unconstructive complaining about someone's pet role being affected should be justification to back off a good and balanced proposal. What is wrong with the cloak buff? We pointed out something in the proposal that had a very strong potential to remove two scout suits from PC. Sure, some people went all crazy and whined about it, but what about the ones who went and actually explained what was wrong? Rattati changed the proposal because there was a reason to. Not because he wanted to give in to complaining people to make them stop whining (At least I hope). I mean, I know everyone is salty about OP scouts, but that doesn't give you a reason to clip the wings of two scouts in retaliation. Unless you want this to go the way of AV and Tanks, who literally will never have balance so long as both sides are salty and want nothing more than revenge for the OPness for the last build. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13486	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:42:00 - [402] - Quote Just to remind you what happens when scouts DON'T need to use a significant amount of slots to dampen against even the most powerful of super scanners: 1.8 Rattati, I've seen this happen far too many times. Don't let the Barbershop lobby destroy what will finally put medium frames into the EWAR game. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13487	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:54:00 - [403] - Quote I would also like to point out that once scanned, there is a significant delay before targets show up. That means that the 8m to 11m short range scan that you get with maxed out Range amplifiers is quite useless. It would be like seeing a scout decloak in front of you and insta blap you with a shotgun, you had no time to react, not even a split second. Putting the short range scan would give 4x amplified Logistics suits 16m scan range. Considering that's 4 modules, I don't think it would be unfair. Also, please bring back the long range scans to 130%, there is no reason to undo this besides hiding sentinels. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 722	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:12:00 - [404] - Quote This looks messier and messier each time I see it. What is the goal of these changes in regard to "ewar" overall?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6289	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:27:00 - [405] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Just to remind you what happens when scouts DON'T need to use a significant amount of slots to dampen against even the most powerful of super scanners: 1.8 Rattati, I've seen this happen far too many times. Don't let the Barbershop lobby destroy what will finally put medium frames into the EWAR game. Just to remind you before another bullshit change happens like I've seen too many times in the past. (Cough Cloak Delay would destroy scouts Cough) The "Barbershop Lobby" is not a thing, as many of us often disagree with each other on many aspects. That being said, some of the members have long been advocates for changing to a module efficacy based bonus as opposed to passive bonuses and tanking. In fact, we have often warned against tanking, and I personally have always wanted a cloak delay. Shall I point you to the section before 1.8 even released when many of us said that shooting from cloak was a bad idea? Or to the point in which I advocated for a delay long before Rattati suggested it would be implimented? Or how about how Haerr suggested something similar to the Range nerf while cloaked (which did ruin the cloak for those of us who used it appropriately to begin with)? Get a life Cat Merc. I actually used to like you, but clearly you just want to spread lies and rumor. You are espousing people to have said things that are clearly contradictory to what was actually said for the sake of inflaming anti scout sentiment. It is no way constructive or helpful. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12547	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:39:00 - [406] - Quote Locking this now as we have left the realm of constructive criticism "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2356	Posted - 2014.12.02 06:09:00 - [407] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I would also like to point out that once scanned, there is a significant delay before targets show up. That means that the 8m to 11m short range scan that you get with maxed out Range amplifiers is quite useless. It would be like seeing a scout decloak in front of you and insta blap you with a shotgun, you had no time to react, not even a split second. Putting the short range scan at 30% would give 4x amplified Logistics suits 16m scan range. Considering that's 4 modules, I don't think it would be unfair. Also, please bring back the long range scans to 130%, there is no reason to undo this besides hiding sentinels and giving me less reasons to damp my Assault overall. Remember, these changes are supposed to also mean that putting on 1 damp doesn't feel like a waste, since it still hides you from something, even when everything is super mega powerful scans. And don't even get me started on the medium range scanners, there was no reason to put them down to 50%. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NvGEah45h5jgaUV7OwP1kURkxJeZZtHprWsa6DgSuxE/edit?usp=sharing Agreed about the scan lag, made a post about it in barbershop a while back but if we don't factor in tacnet lag we'll end up with short range scan radius that just doesn't do its job. PSN: RationalSpark
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4926	Posted - 2014.12.02 06:12:00 - [408] - Quote Ive already alerted Rattati that if there is a delay for passive scans being shown then it needs fixed or the scan ranges changed to compensate. Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what


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