15m range base for assaults could work batter against scouts. 15m is the the new scout proposed medium range

Also how does the precision vs. dampening mechanic work exactly? I'm sort of unclear on that.

Crazy idea:
1. Dampeners reduce your scan range.
2. Range amps reduce your precision.
3. Precision enhancers reduce your scan range.

eWAR solved for ever.

Let me know if i'm wrong.
From what i understand you have 3 chances (1 chance for each circle) of scanning someone else, the more one get close, the higher are the chance to scan him.

Is it like that?

I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war.

Oh they absolutely should. Who insinuated otherwise?

But when a squishy scout has the meta in all three aspects of e-war then you get to today in PC...where scouts are only not the most spammed thing in PC because when assaulting a point heavies ehp/hmg dps >cloak/re scouts.

What should their purpose in PC be?

You take scouts in 1.7 and add in the extra high or low and the equip slot...to say nothing of the cloak..and 1.7 woulda been awesome.

Again with insinuations that I am not asserting.

They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario.

I was comparing logi to assault combat.

Scouts would still just damp up and own mediums from behind like they already do.

What prevents high ehp units from running high intensity, shared passive scans? TL;DR opportunity cost on the slots.

Well...for one assaults and logi's rarely opt for more than 800 ehp. A high e-war suit is probably gonna knock that down to...about 500-600?

a scout fully damped can get around 500-600ehp.

so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision?

this contradicts the assertion that scouts need to be squishy to run the gambit on all three levels of e-war.

this is working very poorly for balance indeed.

Scouts need to retain the meta on dampening, but surrender the meta on precision and either share the meta, or surrender it on scan range.

I have already expressed my thoughts on passive scanning...I think they need to find a way to turn it off.

But if there's going to be a meta of passive scanning...it should be assaults or logi's.

I think we all agree that scouts cant be best at every eWAR aspect in the game, while at the same time being the fastest suits with smallest hitboxes.

What a load of bologna

All scouts aside from cal can be 100% damped.

What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods?

We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies.

More cloak nerfs

See...this is where you're missing the point..

It's not 600 ehp tanky scouts owning everything in PC as the number 2 infantry killer behind HMG.

It's invisible shotgun scouts....with minimal mod tank ehp.

SMH...he posted that in the barbershop.



If you need more proof I can go digging.

He didn't plate stack.

This idea gained traction in another thread, so I am reposting here:

What if the directional Arrow only displayed on the inner 25% short range circle?

This whole discussion seems to be centered around the misconception that you HAVE TO SEE SCOUTS ON YOUR RADAR to counter them.

If scouts can't see you either the fights are much more balanced.

I don't have a definate answer, but buffing scans over and over doesn't really seem to be it either.

Maybe we should rather talk about buffing damps instead.

Instead of restoring balance by making everyone see everyone, why don't we restore balance by making everyone blind?

Let getting scanned be the penalty for those who want to stack HP, not the natural state of everything but scouts.

All passive, at short range as well?

Amps decrease Precision
Precision reduces range

Both increase Profile

Lol crymoar.

mmmmmmm :tears: I love the credit for this, when I really shouldn't be blessed with it. But alas I am happy to be the center of your rage. It makes for some great reading. "zatara-land" and misquotes shall continue!!!! Let the good times roll!

Continue peasant. I have yet more room in my bowels to gobble up your butthurt.

You, too, are behaving quite as expected.
I'm not going to congratulate you on it though because it has always been your own narrative.

If you would like to have a real conversation ....

LOL

That's not Shotty.

8. If "360 wallhack scans" are a balance problem, why are we adding to the number of units who can do it?

because if you can't make it so no one can do it...then make it so everyone can do it. I don't know how giving only one class something that's OP makes sense...But that's not really my argument...just general logic in this particular response.

Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all.

If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan.

The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security.


Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR.

And again, please see:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2491443#post2491443
And example were scouts have to use damps and precisions to be better, and mediums to get and edge and heavys get the jump on some mediums and scouts.
I have proposed this before.

All scouts can dampen underneath 18dB.

Passive scanning this much, even with buffs to logi base stats, would require an immense investment and leave the logi as a glass scanner. Additionally, it would not generate any WP unless you actually mean active scans, in which case I will point out that there are only narrow scan angles and limited uptime on scans.

This doesn't upgrade heavy+logi blobs to omniscience any more than the Amarr scout does - the Amarr scout is actually a superior EWAR platform on account of being able to do this while being more dampened and potentially even more tanked than a logi that tries to do this.

It is, however, a disgustingly long range to have 360 degree scans at that level of precision which is why I feel that high precision scans should not go out to those distances unless they're active, in which case they have a bucketload of tradeoffs.

EDIT: Wait, how did this logi get 18dB scans out to 40m? This is not a thing, even under the most stacked logi with the new proposals.

THIS is where we agree completely.

Hence why passive scan ranges being nerfed is a huge priority now.

I think reducing the inner ring size is more likely to harm the Amarr scout than harm the logi. If a scout wishes to evade the logi short scans, it can be done - not so in the case of the Amarr scout, which is where its role comes into play.

You mean, it shouldn't have better than 18dB?
It can quite definitely use it and it gives it a defined role in its own scanning - which is what you wanted, yes?

Incidentally, I'm a little baffled by your extreme anti-'king HP' complaints. On one hand, you complain that everyone is stacking HP and EWAR should be more viable. On the other, should a non-scout become a potentially serious EWAR threat, it immediately becomes the target of a series of complaints about its EWAR strength even though it is still outperformed by a scout.

In 1.7 I ran 2 or 3 complex damps on my logi suits.

Very few Scouts don't run 2 tank modules.

And currently...as I said..the numbers are quite clear that unless facing a BLOB of heavies...a single operant scout is the most deadly suit in the game...with 3 complex shield extenders a min scout hits 430 EHP with innates. amarr scout hits like close to 600 with 3 complex reactive.

And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned.

*facepalm* you miss the point on the plates.

refute all you like. lol. where did I say 300 ehp scouts slay?

450-550ehp shotgun scouts are the most dominant fits in PC. Heavies are only better when spammed in blobs.

And you can get 500 ehp EASY on all but the min while being completely damped.

And their lack of EHP has proven through the numbers to not be an effective 'con' hence why average players in PC with a damped scout suit with 300 ehp will do way better than a great player with a 900 ehp assault suit. It's nottanked 750 ehp assault lite's...that is a misnomer because assault lite's get scanned.

If a role is OP and you remove one of it's benefits and give it to another to one that is UP like logi's...and they both become balanced as a result...awesome!

Why then would you need to buff them if they are balanced? just make changes that make their bonus worthy but not OP like 4 equip slot scouts.

A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive:

The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus.

And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to.

Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC.

Amplifier Modules to 25% per level

Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60%

With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range.

Reserving for immediate action if necessary
Reducing Precision Module Modifier
Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision
Reducing Caldari native Scout Range
Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening

The updated proposal.