The only minimal HP Shotgun Scouts I've seen in PC are the ones I've OHK'd. The very best Shotgun Scouts I've seen in PC (Marauder, Roner, Fusion) all stacked plates. I personally prefer a Gal w/2 damps, 2 plates and 2 extenders, and that's way than "minimal HP" in my book. All anecdotal, I know.

So is the quote above based upon actual data, or is it based on your personal observation/expectation/etc?

Marauder and Roner ran plates and kincats; they didn't even bother with damps. Lol.

Competitive shotgun scouts running under 500HP is news to me. That's OHK range if pitted against another shotgunner. Sounds like it'd be uncommon, but who knows? (I'll bet the data knows).

If you're right, you're right. But right or wrong, we're still nerfing A in response to B.

In what way would nerfing Scout Scans affect the potency of a lightly armored and dampened shotgun scout? He still sees what whoever's running recon sees.

Marauder and Roner ran plates and kincats; they didn't even bother with damps. Lol.

Competitive shotgun scouts running under 500HP is news to me. That's OHK range if pitted against another shotgunner. Sounds like it'd be uncommon, but who knows? (I'll bet the data knows).

If you're right, you're right. But right or wrong, we're still nerfing A in response to B.

We point to the shotgun scout (whether lightly or heavily plated) as our basis for a nerf to Scout Scans. In what way would nerfing Scout Scans affect the potency of a shotgun scout? He runs damps (not scans) and he still sees what whoever's running recon sees. We nerfed the wrong guy.

SMH...he posted that in the barbershop.



If you need more proof I can go digging.

He didn't plate stack.

Right. Because Marauder ran basic gear in PC.

Originally, CCP wanted players to be able to shoot while cloaked (I have a quote that I can link if you guys need proof) and the community shot that down in a hurry. What we got as a result was... Well, being able to shoot before the de-cloak animation even finished.

It's been said several times that the Shotgun isn't what's over-powered and it's not, it was hardly ever changed since it's inception. What did change however is the Scouts, more importantly the implementation of the cloaking device. Which isn't bad, but the way the CPM 0 wanted the cloaking device to work was for movement from point a to point b. Not predator / 'gotcha' kills. Rightfully so as the entire gameplay mechanic is **** poor, annoying, and silly.

Cloaking is also a nice subject of debate. Judge Rhadamanthus (sp?) brought up the Toupee Fallacy:

"The arguer claims that they can always recognize when something is present. This is likely a fallacy because the arguer is not aware of all of the times that he/she did not recognize it."

The same applies to cloaking. How could you ever know of the times you -DID NOT- see a cloaked scout if the entire premise is that you did not see them?

That being said, we have to consider the factor that the cloaking device was, by the CPM 0 standards, meant for movement and not combat. So the exact contradiction is that cloaking devices are more powerful, visually, when standing still as opposed to moving. I think we could honestly reverse that to discourage camping by making them glow a brighter blue shade (more obvious) when holding still and the cloak being more powerful (perfect invisibility) when moving.

Now, hold your horses because I realize that this sounds contrary to a 'nerf' toward Scouts. The reason being for this change would be to open up more opportunities to hit the de-cloak harshly. Talking several seconds before the user can pull their weapon and begin firing. This way, we encourage the cloaking device for low-profile movement while at the same time encouraging more critical thinking on the Scout's behalf. It would encourage players to want to decloak -BEFORE- entering combat zones instead of making themselves vulnerable when they're already within the optimal range of their shotgun. Or as Arkena Wyrnspire put it, "the spleen removal zone".

Just my 0.02 ISK

Scan Table - New_EWAR - this is the full table

Scan Table - New_EWAR_Slim - this is a slimmed down version that removes a lot of less interesting things and only cares about complex dampeners

Provided you use google docs and enable the script that comes with the table it will be updated, sorted, and coloured automatically.

Scan Table - New_EWAR - this is the full table

Scan Table - New_EWAR_Slim - this is a slimmed down version that removes a lot of less interesting things and only cares about complex dampeners

Provided you use google docs and enable the script that comes with the table it will be updated, sorted, and coloured automatically.

Has incentivising the Cloak as a Tactical tool as opposed to a Short Range Weapons Delivery System been discussed.

Things like for example

-Reducing mobility while cloaked?
- Stationary Cloaking only?
-Perhaps not even a Visual cloak but an EWAR clock that knocks your scan profile off of the map.

I only suggest it, admittedly knowing little about scouts, so that the cloak remains as a useful and thematic tool for the role while impressing on scouts its importance/usefulness without conveying too many benefits.

I mean it is one of the (essentially speaking) only class specific modules in the game right now.

This idea gained traction in another thread, so I am reposting here:

What if the directional Arrow only displayed on the inner 25% short range circle?

Also, make the size of the Dot proportional to the Profile of the suit.

This would allow Assault suits to avoid Sentinels, or engage Sentinels in a more tactical manner.

It would also give Sentinels a reason to use Dampener Modules, to alter their signature on the Radar map to look like Assault suits.

Also, make the size of the Dot proportional to the Profile of the suit.

This would allow Assault suits to avoid Sentinels, or engage Sentinels in a more tactical manner.

It would also give Sentinels a reason to use Dampener Modules, to alter their signature on the Radar map to look like Assault suits.

I completely agree with Fox's statement.

Zatara previously mentioned that, among other reasons, he liked the cloak because it gave players an active means of changing their scan profile. I believe that Fox's change would be the next best thing for other suits, allowing them to dynamically (On a suit-to-suit basis) change their scan profile.

However, I do think that one addition needs to be made: We should have combat actions like shooting and sprinting increase your scanning profile and dot size, and passive actions like crouching or standing still decrease your scanning profile and dot size.

I like the idea of a Heavy deceiving other players into thinking it is a medium suit by wearing dampeners. However, I would also like an Assault to deceive other players into thinking it was a heavy because it did actions to enlarge its dot size

So, have we hit the point in here where base range on mediums and heavies gets significantly buffed yet? Anybody who has actually run ewar knows prec without range is almost worthless and seeing a guy who moves @ 8m/s in the last 10 m for a second = not much help.

If its been covered, just say, I haven't read through the entire thread

Ok, in the last few days I have talked and thought about various ways we could try and make the EWAR system work. It really is hard to find a balance between scouts dedicating their fits to being properly stealthy getting rewarded for doing so and medium frames being able to have a chance at actually participating in EWAR. As we stand now, even with the proposed changes, scouts will continue to easily, with practically no effort, beat any and all attempts from medium frames at participating in the EWAR game. There have been many interesting propositions in this thread for making EWAR more dynamic, including things like actions directly affecting profile. But seems we are, for now, due to technical imitations stuck with a more static system.

I have a general outline in my head that I have been toying with, that I find very appealing, though I know most people who even bother to read this will probably disagree with it. But hey, loads of people have made all sorts of suggestions here, so why not.

First of all, let's keep the concentric circle system, with the reduced scan precision at longest ranges. But instead of just slightly higher precision in the smallest circle, I propose (as have some others) that everything, no matter the profile, is visible in the short range. I think this is not an inconvenience to even the stealthiest of playstyles, because no matter how many dampeners you stack on, you still have to use your brains to decide on direction and timing of approaches, use situational awareness and speed to maximum effect, take advantage of windows of opportunity created by the actions of other players. And the short range we are talking about here is quite short, distances a scout can close almost instantaneously.

Now, you might say, why would anyone use precision enhancers if everything is can be scanned regardless? Well, precision enhancers would still work to improve your passive scans at medium to long range, and can serve to give you an advance warning about danger heading your way. So, they'd still be just as useful.

On the other hand, what does it matter if your scans show you a scout that's about to remove your spleen when they are already within the very short scan range of the inmost circle? Well, it might not, in some cases. But I do think that it may give one a fighting chance, due to the split second of being able to start to react, turn, dodge, whatever when that red blip shows up on your radar instead of only after the scout in question is already happily running off with your kidneys in hand, on his way to find a black market trader for clone mercenary organs...

Now, ranges. I think the current base ranges for medium frames (and possibly heavies, however I am not so much concerned about them, as they do have their massive HP and insanely high dps as defences :P) need to be improved on.
3.something meter short range scans are meaningless, both in Rattati's system, and in my theoretical one. I propose assaults and logis both should have a BASE range somewhere around 20m (at the very least over 15m), just so their short scan radius reaches a useful distance... Of course scout base ranges could also be adjusted upwards to retain their superiority to medium frames in this aspect. Though I do also see that if we increase base ranges too much, range amplifier modules may become ridiculous at their current percentages, but they could be adjusted to work with longer base ranges. My aim with this is that a medium frame with max skills would have a passive short range scan of at least about 7-8m. Well within shotgun range, barely an eyeblink for a nova knifer to close in.

So, how does this help medium frame participation in EWAR? Well, I personally don't think medium frames can or should compete with scouts in stealth... Assaults can choose to dampen to try and hide themselves from active scanners/other mediums/heavies etc. But they don't need to reach the levels of dampening a scout can. But mediums should have a decent chance at detecting scouts, yes, even dampened ones. And the numbers we have seen really don't include a decent chance for that, 1 or 2 dampeners would be enough to competely hide a scout from any scans a medium frame is capable of. So, sacrificing slots for enhancers seems rather pointless. But if a medium frame can see a scout in their short range scans, the dynamic becomes less one-sided. Now everyone can choose to increase their effectiveness against stealthy players by increasing their scan range... as increased scan range would also slightly increase the radius of the short range scans.

Now, I happen to think that shared passive scans would break this system... But I also think that shared passive scans already break the game, a little. I would be happy to see them go, and make EWAR a little more interesting at the same time.

I know I'm not going into a lot of detail as far as numbers are concerned, and I don't have a spreadsheet to show my work, but I don't see the point for something that is entirely just a throw away idea :)

Well, anyway, essay over, my other 0.02isk, whatever. Tell me I'm an idiot.

Umm...you're an idiot? XD