No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment.

That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing.

They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so.

Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so!

Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. The rest, in order to use their precision, MUST remain uncloaked, and therefore scanable.

If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP.

That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing.

They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so.

Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so!

Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it.

If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP.

What a load of bologna

All scouts aside from cal can be 100% damped.

What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods?

We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies.

Not sure how to parse this. To beat all scans, all Scouts except one have to run straight damps and a proto cloak.

Scan Table - New_EWAR - this is the full table

Scan Table - New_EWAR_Slim - this is a slimmed down version that removes a lot of less interesting things and only cares about complex dampeners

Provided you use google docs and enable the script that comes with the table it will be updated, sorted, and coloured automatically.

Dear players,

When we added the additional Vehicle Awareness Circle in 1.9, a new code logic was implemented that allowed different passive scan settings.

After posting the EWAR ideas thread, the community proposed using these to mimic dynamic precision falloff. I had asked for the same thing in the past, and was told it was too difficult and number intensive to do.

Well, the good news is, that we have managed to do exactly this in code. I have been pretty coy about it until we properly QA'd it, but today was a success of demonstrating dropsuits of various roles, and module combinations, moving in and out of these passive ranges, demonstrating fairly dynamic behavior.

The system is fairly straightforward.

We define the "absolute value" of each dropsuit's Passive Scan with Precision, Profile and Range. (We have this already defined)

We define one smaller circle and another larger circle using a Range modifier.

We then define the Precision within these two new circles, using a Precision modifier.

Done. See this simplified picture:
[img]http://puu.sh/cUhwi/f10bd82636.png[/img]

We retain the current meta in the middle circle where everything is as it was. At other ranges, things are quite different.

In theory, we have completely moved out of the GÇ£scanned versus not scannedGÇ¥ meta and into a much changed EWAR environment, where everyone and anyone can utilize any of the EWAR modules to some extent, further reinforcing the GÇ£waves of opportunityGÇ¥ game design principle. A Sentinel trading a few lows for a few meters of very strong Precision, an Assault using a Dampener or two to get into through long and even medium range, etc. You get the picture.

Now for the numbers.

We are in uncharted territory, if you will, the combinations of dropsuits and modules, who scans whom, how and when. I asked our resident EWAR expert, Haerr to setup a dynamic spreadsheet where the final numbers can be browsed, with the exact number of complex modules needed to evade scans at different scan radii.

We donGÇÖt have those numbers nailed down yet, but we have the framework to discuss them here. In this spreadsheet we have some preliminary numbers to play with. Those can and will be changed. There may be other changes that are deemed necessary, such as Scout Skills (Amarr, Caldari, Gallente), Dropsuit Skills (all 3) or even Modules (looking at you mr. Amplifier).

This is all, we believe, for the greater good of DUST 514. The CPM has called for it, the Community has called for it and CCP has wanted it for a long time.

LetGÇÖs discuss calmly and have a bit of fun with this. ItGÇÖs not every day a big change like this can shake up the meta.

They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so.

What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods?

We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies.

This can't really be overstated.

1.8 made it scout 514 unless you blob heavies. Assaults can get by in pubs but they are lol in a competitive environment when you aren't facing blueberries.

I couldn't agree more with that assessment.

Compare that to 1.7 where scouts did not have cloaks, the meta on precision (and mediums were participants in the e-war game) and more...and scouts in the competitive scene were VERY much viable and had a critical role.

The gal logi focused meta should replace the meta of focused scanners in 1.7

and it SHOULD take you three damps to get below it (or 2 complex and a basic or cloak IMO for gal)

because of the HUGE disadvantages a focused has.

That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing.

They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so.

Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so!

Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. The rest, in order to use their precision, MUST remain uncloaked, and therefore scanable.

If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP.

There is plenty of room for Medium Frames in the EWAR picture as it currently stands.

@ Zatara Rought
Scouts post-1.8 are certainly overpowered. But what's your basis for claiming that pre-1.8 scouts were VERY much viable?

I apologize in advance if you already answered these and I missed it.

1) What do the Amarr (Precision) and Caldari (Range) get for sacrificing their current roles?

2) What sacrifices will the Medium Frames make to get this new bonus?

Without going into a much more detailed post...

Because in the most competitive PC matches...3-4 scouts were used on either side.

When team composition was being determined...where NOW the question is "do we have enough scouts and heavies?"

the question then was "do we have enough heavies?" "who we have enough logi's?" "do we have enough scouts?"

Scouts were an integral part of PC meta.

Now...they've been buffed to the point they are the only integral part of any PC team aside from heavies.

BTW FTFY

I was the hipster scout-using FC before it was cool, so I can say the following with confidence. In a competitive environment the SPEED of the scout suit is a huge tactical advantage when applied appropriately. Scouts can quickly get into strange positions, place uplinks, and then vanish. They can get to that outside letter. And they can guard exterior letters pretty effective as well with modest EWAR bonuses, because they can hide 20+m away from an objective and then pop out of hiding when someone hacks it.

Most of this usage scenarios have vanished in the past year and half as these aspects of scout gameplay have been replaced with the rather bizarre mind set that scouts should be a combat-primary class, and should be able to get within sneezing distance of people without the slightest sign. The cloak has had something to do with this, but so have EWAR changes that almost completely obsoleted any scanning except scout passive scanning.

Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much.

Umm..

Great question.

Cal scout is very much welcome to retain the meta on range. but it's precision will be such that without mods it should only pick up heavies and all equips...barring investment into precision mods.

Amarr scout could retain it's bonus...simply moving the bar back (again on precision) would make it as competitive in the precision game as a 1 complex precision invested assault or logi (whichever one get's the best innate base precision)

So it would be covering a weakness and turning it into a mild strength...instead of it being the meta of passive scans.

As for mediums giving up stuff?

Logi's/Assaults in non lol blueberry environments are horrifically UP.

What did scouts give up in exchange for the cloak...an extra slot...and extra equip..after 1.7?

I honestly don't think so.

And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war.

We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content.

I honestly don't think so.

And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war.

We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content.

Has incentivising the Cloak as a Tactical tool as opposed to a Short Range Weapons Delivery System been discussed.

Things like for example

-Reducing mobility while cloaked?
- Stationary Cloaking only?
-Perhaps not even a Visual cloak but an EWAR clock that knocks your scan profile off of the map.

I only suggest it, admittedly knowing little about scouts, so that the cloak remains as a useful and thematic tool for the role while impressing on scouts its importance/usefulness without conveying too many benefits.

I mean it is one of the (essentially speaking) only class specific modules in the game right now.

More cloak nerfs

Personally I'd prefer to give the cloak back it's 90 second duration at proto and make it so that the current visual effect obtained from standing still was consistent the entire time even when sprinting...but in exchange you needed to wait 2-3 seconds after decloaking (fix firing from cloak and the currently messed up decloak sound delay) and a delay to recloak of like 5 seconds after firing or other 'offensive' actions.

So the cloak is intended for recon and insertion.

Problem:
600+ HP "Assault Lite" Scouts are OP.

Complaint:
Assault Lite are out-assaulting Assault.

Solution:
Nerf cloak and remove Scout scans.

Outcome:
Problem Scouts are unaffected; all other Scouts are rendered less effective.

See...this is where you're missing the point..

It's not 600 ehp tanky scouts owning everything in PC as the number 2 infantry killer behind HMG.

It's invisible shotgun scouts....with minimal mod tank ehp.