DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] EWAR Concentric Circle Scan Falloff Design

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

Zatara Rought wrote:

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

Zatara Rought wrote:

They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. Smile

I'd expect the opposite, as MedFrames have a good 'bit more base HP and better slot count than Scouts.

So, what would prevent high HP units from running high-intensity, shared passive scans? If high-intensity, shared passive scans have to exists, wouldn't it be best to restrict them to easy-to-squish units?

I was comparing logi to assault combat.

Scouts would still just damp up and own mediums from behind like they already do.

What prevents high ehp units from running high intensity, shared passive scans? TL;DR opportunity cost on the slots.

Well...for one assaults and logi's rarely opt for more than 800 ehp. A high e-war suit is probably gonna knock that down to...about 500-600?

a scout fully damped can get around 500-600ehp.

so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision?

this contradicts the assertion that scouts need to be squishy to run the gambit on all three levels of e-war.

this is working very poorly for balance indeed.

Scouts need to retain the meta on dampening, but surrender the meta on precision and either share the meta, or surrender it on scan range.

I have already expressed my thoughts on passive scanning...I think they need to find a way to turn it off.

But if there's going to be a meta of passive scanning...it should be assaults or logi's.

For PC, I run an AM Scout with 2 Precision Enhancers and 2 Range Extenders. For my last two lows, I choose between Damps or HP. I could run recon using another Scout, say Gallente or Caldari, but then I couldn't claim to have "competitive" scan precision so FC would probably pass me up, min / max and all.

All that to say, I can't think of a single, competitive recon scout who can simultaneously run tank, precision and damps . Would it be too much to ask for you to cook one up for me? I ask because you say ...

so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision?

... and I'd like to learn precisely what you mean by this.

Edit: While we're on the subject of AM Scout ... this is a unit who was once without a role, but (thanks to Rattati) now it has one. What happens to the AM Scout if Precision gets yanked from Scouts?


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 173	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:29:00 - [1] - Quote As far as I am aware, I can already evade adv scans with my amarr heavy with 3 proto damps, aprox 28 scan profile I think. I also use 3 proto damps on std assault amarr suits, approx 23 scan profile. Both these ewar fits have something scouts don't. My assault has more hp for 23 profile. My amarr scout cant get 23 profile with same hp. it can only get 23 profile and by faster with higher scan range etc. My stealth assault is a tanky scout shotgun fitting. My stealth heavy is a slow flanker in pubs that is a game changer when it works. (its a pub, not pc competent yet, if it could evade scans from equipment active scanners at 70m ranges to flank from behind that would be awesome.) Please apply your idea of Dynamic range vs precision Rattati to active scanner equipment.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 173	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:30:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: As a sidenote, didn't you say that Assault Profile will be reduced to 45dB? It says 50dB base, and which is the current number, but the Logi range isn't the current range? With dampening skills at 5 your assault scan profile is 45. not 50.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 173	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:38:00 - [3] - Quote Please make scouts be unscannable if they are beyond 45m ranges with 2 complex damps. (for enemies with ewar dedicated fittings) With 3 complex damps please make scouts unscannable within 15 meters of the enemy (if enemy has Ewar dedicated fits) The nova knive scouts should be viable in PC. Make scouts need 4 complex damps to be unscannable within approx 10 meters. (when enemy is using ewar dedicated fits) All the above refers to passive scanning. Scouts sacrifice a lot using ewar dedicated fits. Be paranoid and look around a lot while in a squad and you''ll kill that sneaky scout sometimes. (if they use no hp mods and you have good aim, little lag)
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 173	Posted - 2014.11.17 12:34:00 - [4] - Quote Having assaults and heavies have a scan range of 17m as a base and scouts having a base of 23m seems like a good idea. It would make all frame be able to make use of range amps. Perhaps increase the stacking penalty of range amplifiers to 82% instead of approx 88.5%.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 174	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:32:00 - [5] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: WeapondigitX V7 wrote: Please make scouts be unscannable if they are beyond 45m ranges with 2 complex damps. (for enemies with ewar dedicated fittings) With 3 complex damps please make scouts unscannable within 15 meters of the enemy (if enemy has Ewar dedicated fits) The nova knive scouts should be viable in PC. Make scouts need 4 complex damps to be unscannable within approx 10 meters. (when enemy is using ewar dedicated fits) All the above refers to passive scanning. Scouts sacrifice a lot using ewar dedicated fits. Be paranoid and look around a lot while in a squad and you''ll kill that sneaky scout sometimes. (if they use no hp mods and you have good aim, little lag) ...Unless I am reading the spreadsheet completely wrong, with these numbers, scouts with 2 complex damps would be unscannable at all ranges, even by a logi with 4 precision enhancers. And it would even take 3 enhancers to catch a scout with only one dampener at short-medium range. You've confused me, are you saying that we should get less benefit with 2 proto damps but same benefit as now with 3 damps and the same benefit as now with 4 damps? The std amarr scout only has 3 low slots. I was hoping corps that didn't have proto suits could still run ewar fits with proto mods and be competent at some level in PC by being able to evade any scans at certain ranges.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 174	Posted - 2014.11.18 01:35:00 - [6] - Quote After reading approx. 5 pages I think this proposal would have a more positive effect than Rattatis proposals of the outer and inner circles ranges and precision. Active scanner equipment should have the idea of better precision to detect enemies the closer they are. Just like what Rattati is proposing for passive scans. I would propose EQ scanners have a 100% precision modifier at 95% of there current range. With 70% precision modifier at 47% of there current range. With 20% precision modifier at 25% of current range. This allows gal logis to scan scouts that are very close to allies (just aim the scanner in direction the allies backs are facing). It allows gal logis to scan scouts in line of sight at low ranges and, in effect, call for help to the entire allied team because the entire team may converge on the scout cause they see it. This allows all classes with scanners to call for help in killing targets at close range because of the scanners high precision at close range (basically it fulfills the role of calling for help on the microphone to other allies with microphones, except allies magically have a microphone at that instant every time, this incentivizes team work while putting those with scanners in danger because of the low range combined with high precision.) For passive scanning: make the inner circle have better qualities, give a precision modifier of approx. 70% with a range of approx. 42%. Make the outer circle have a precision modifier of 120% with a range of approx. 140%. Make middle circle have a precision modifier of 100% and range modifier of 100%. This would make players be able to better realistically apply there ewar stats in battle. With max lvl 5 skills: Assault base scan precision: 50dB Assault base scan range: 15m Assaults with a proto range amp would get 7.5 extra meters of range in additon to 15m base range with 100% precision modifier (22m range rounded down with 50dB precision), while also getting a precision of 35 dB at a range of 13m (9m penalty rounded up). They also get a precision of 60dB at a range of 31m allowing them to detect undamped heavies at a good range. With 1 proto precision mod and 1 proto range mod, it gets way better for all classes: Assaults: 50dB x 0.8 x 0.7 at range of 13m: 28dB scan precision 50dB x 0.8 x 1.2 at range of 31m: 48dB scan precision, thus all moderately dampened heavies are scanned at 31m 50db x 0.8 at range of 22m: 40dB scan precision, tanked assaults are scanned which are around the corner in corridors. These proposed changes would have a larger positive effect. A std amarr assault with 3 proto damps gets a scan profile of approx. 23 dB if I remember correctly.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 174	Posted - 2014.11.18 04:47:00 - [7] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: They will have less EHP, but have first shot advantage in a default scenario. I'd expect the opposite, as MedFrames have a good 'bit more base HP and better slot count than Scouts. So, what would prevent high HP units from running high-intensity, shared passive scans? If high-intensity, shared passive scans have to exists, wouldn't it be best to restrict them to easy-to-squish units? I was comparing logi to assault combat. Scouts would still just damp up and own mediums from behind like they already do. What prevents high ehp units from running high intensity, shared passive scans? TL;DR opportunity cost on the slots. Well...for one assaults and logi's rarely opt for more than 800 ehp. A high e-war suit is probably gonna knock that down to...about 500-600? a scout fully damped can get around 500-600ehp. so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision? this contradicts the assertion that scouts need to be squishy to run the gambit on all three levels of e-war. this is working very poorly for balance indeed. Scouts need to retain the meta on dampening, but surrender the meta on precision and either share the meta, or surrender it on scan range. I have already expressed my thoughts on passive scanning...I think they need to find a way to turn it off. But if there's going to be a meta of passive scanning...it should be assaults or logi's. For PC, I run an AM Scout with 2 Precision Enhancers and 2 Range Extenders. For my last two lows, I choose between Damps or HP. I could run recon using another Scout, say Gallente or Caldari, but then I couldn't claim to have "competitive" scan precision so FC would probably pass me up, min / max and all. All that to say, I can't think of a single, competitive recon scout who can simultaneously run tank, precision and damps . Would it be too much to ask for you to cook one up for me? I ask because you say ... so currently you can retain 70% of ehp for the meta in scanning...dampening..and precision? ... and I'd like to learn precisely what you mean by this. Edit: While we're on the subject of AM Scout ... this is a unit who was once without a role, but (thanks to Rattati) now it has one. What happens to the AM Scout if Precision gets yanked from Scouts? I would also like to know what happens to the amarr scout because I run amarr everything. I need 3 proto damps and 2 precision to be damped well and have short range defensive scanning at a competitive level, with 1 proto rep and adv cloak so my fit is sustainable. My passive scan range is 30m so I cant support my squad with good scans at good ranges. Thus I don't think I can retain 500 hp while having competitive precision, dampening, and range. I just don't have the mod slot count or the PG/CPU to do that.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 175	Posted - 2014.11.18 04:58:00 - [8] - Quote Edited a post on page six with some updated calculations about my proposed EQ scanner changes and updated assault calculations by changing assault precision from 50 to 45dB with max lvl 5 skills. These proposed changes make gal logis with focused scanners able to scan anything but at reduced ranges while having the current precision at longer ranges. It allows people to call for help by showing close enemies to the whole allied team etc.