So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff?

With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system.

It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration.

I would still prefer if Logis got the better precision while scouts got the better range.
Cuz, ya know, scouts, scouting, recon.

Logis are likely to stay with a squad, hence they provide an invaluable short range umbrella for the squad, increasing their support role.

This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent.

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I also see the come back of the most catastrophic thing that has ever happened to this game, the Cal and Amarr scout can have an unavoidable scan of 30 meters for every suits but Gal and Amarr scouts.
Btw, the gal scout will also have access to a crazy scan, that can be avoided by fully damped scout but it's still too good.

...

one thing id like to see on the topic of passive scan is to make them work no matter what.

to do this we would make it so that anyone that comes within scan range immediate starts being "scanned". but this would take time, instead of being instant like it is currently.

this changes how scan precision and profile works.

the lower your profile, the longer it takes for you to be scanned.

the lower your precision, the faster you scan enemies within your scan range.

the way it all works is that we would use the precision number and count down one dB per second until it reaches and matches an enemy scan profile, at which point the target is scanned and shows up.

so for example:

enemy enters your scan range.

your suit starts scanning for his location.

you suits scan precision is 45 dB, and then enemy has a scan profile of 36 dB

45 - 36 = 9

so it would take 9 seconds after they enter your scan range before they show up. i think we should increase base scan precision so we start with a minimum scan time of 60 seconds. then we could reduce the time by using precision mods, or increase it by using dampeners.

the benefit of this way of passive scans is that everyone would be able to use them, but the difference would be in speed or how fast you can scan.

if an enemy moved into your scan range, but moved outside of your range before you scanned them then you wouldnt scan them obviously.

cloaks would keep you from being scanned, until you dropped your cloak. then you would start to get scanned. but if your profile is low enough you could recharge your cloak and turn it on again before you got scanned.

this way is much more dynamic and exciting than the current system.

Design Principles
Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module
Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill

For later discussion
Range Amps to High

This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent.

Can you put the updated numbers for the Range Amplification skill and the Range Amplifier modules in your spread sheet so that we can see them?

I really do believe that moving Range Amplifiers to high slots is something that cannot wait, as it is an important measure to prevent Short Range Passive Scans from becoming to good.

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The proposed numbers have been put into the spreadsheets, here are the links.

Scan Table - Base_New_EWAR

Scan Table - Base_New_EWAR_Slim

Edit: As Rattati mentioned Active Scanners have not been changed, which means that they only have 1 Scan Precision value... so the Short and Long Range Scans for Active Scanners that are in the Scan Table will not exist in game.

So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff?

With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system.

It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration.

I'm saying that as long as Scouts don't have a ROLE bonus, instead of a Racial one, there will always be an imbalance in Scout distribution because the one that takes the fewest low slots, the slots that compete with modules such as kinetic catalyzers and codebreakers, that one will always be the best choice.

Seeing as one of the four scouts only have 2 low slots, that means Profile Dampeners need a 10% per level efficacy bonus and an active cloak, something that shouldn't be a choice as to whether a player wants to use it.

If you don't change base stats, like you just said, then the Caldari Scout can already get to the same level of precision as the Focused Active Scanner again.

With those proposed numbers there are 3 different ways to get a suit to Gallente Logistics' Focused Scanner's Precision with a range of 33-43m. If you take awaay the Caldari Scout's affinity for scan range, you can reduce that to 2 but there's no way people won't min-max scanning.

People abhor having to match skill vs skill when it comes to situational awareness, why should they have to look anywhere other than the corner of their screen to know where someone is?!

If Dampeners were to reduce range like precision increases profile, instead of forcing the cloak down everyone's throat that wants to play the EWAR game.

The game is still all about absolutes. How often, honestly, are people killed outside 40m?
Can you get that number? Can you see each by game mode?
If a Logistics suit can get Precision to a point where the majority of suits can't avoid it and get range matching or exceeding the average kill range then how is this any more fluid?

Hyper-vigilant Precision. So what if Precision adds to Profile? Someone else is just going to run that high precision build to see everyone around them anyway.

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@ little sammy:
You're right. total misinformation. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2173587#post2173587
On the precipice of alpha "The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end scanning."
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176785#post2176785
Gal Scout discussion thread, "This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. "
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176876#post2176876
"thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. "
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177170#post2177170
All you've done since is say how it's unfair how Detection doesn't overcome dampening.
Has something changed during your tenure on the CPM? No, it hasn't.

Total misinformation.

P.S. It takes like all of 5 minutes to search the entirety of a post you want to find. There's nothing special or time consuming about it.

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I also love seeing al the "Focused Scanner has high fitting cost," in posts in this thread. For reference, dampening below it takes anywhere form 149 CPU and 18PG comprised of 2 low slots and an Equipment slot vs 1 EQ slot and only 29CPU and 14PG. Or for Min and Amarr it takes another 33 CPU and another low slot.

Focused scanners have such a high fitting cost...

The sheer horror of the thought that my 3x dampened Assault will still be picked up over 30m+ by a Logi with only 2x precision makes me want to puke.

This whole discussion seems to be centered around the misconception that you HAVE TO SEE SCOUTS ON YOUR RADAR to counter them.

If scouts can't see you either the fights are much more balanced.

I don't have a definate answer, but buffing scans over and over doesn't really seem to be it either.

Maybe we should rather talk about buffing damps instead.

Instead of restoring balance by making everyone see everyone, why don't we restore balance by making everyone blind?

Let getting scanned be the penalty for those who want to stack HP, not the natural state of everything but scouts.

OK, just give us the actual numbers and tweaks necessary.

You say, a few things

1) Cloak, can that be used to help the minmatar scout?
2) Should we reduce the Caldari and Amarr bonuses immediately and fix with efficacy later?
3) Should we add range penalties to dampening like you mention?
4) Do we reduce the amplifier module?
5) Do we reduce the amplifier skill?
6) Move Amplifiers to high?

Let's get the ideas out there so we can make the necessary changes. I did not propose changes to the Scouts to, for the lack of a better word, honor their specialty. If that is what is necessary, we will do what needs to be done.

So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff?

With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system.

It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration.

No scout should be forced to run all of their lows to avoid scans. It's the point of the damn suit to be hidden, yet I can only BARELY do so when running the most sneaky suit possible.

That isn't balance.

Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved.

As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames.

So, a scout shouldn't have to specialize in stealth to avoid a highly specialised scanning fit? You think it would be reasonable for any scout to only have to use 1 dampener to avoid any and all scans, even your proposed 'offender', the logi with 8 module slots dedicated to scanning?

So, a scout shouldn't have to specialize in stealth to avoid a highly specialised scanning fit? You think it would be reasonable for any scout to only have to use 1 dampener to avoid any and all scans, even your proposed 'offender', the logi with 8 module slots dedicated to scanning?

All passive, at short range as well?

If you don't move Range amps to highs, then yes.

Otherwise, people will just slap on two range amps and laugh as you try to be sneaky within 20m of them.