With dampening skills at 5 your assault scan profile is 45. not 50.

"I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers"

Just sayin'

That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing.

They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so.

Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so!

Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. The rest, in order to use their precision, MUST remain uncloaked, and therefore scanable.

If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP.

I was the hipster scout-using FC before it was cool, so I can say the following with confidence. In a competitive environment the SPEED of the scout suit is a huge tactical advantage when applied appropriately. Scouts can quickly get into strange positions, place uplinks, and then vanish. They can get to that outside letter. And they can guard exterior letters pretty effective as well with modest EWAR bonuses, because they can hide 20+m away from an objective and then pop out of hiding when someone hacks it.

Most of this usage scenarios have vanished in the past year and half as these aspects of scout gameplay have been replaced with the rather bizarre mind set that scouts should be a combat-primary class, and should be able to get within sneezing distance of people without the slightest sign. The cloak has had something to do with this, but so have EWAR changes that almost completely obsoleted any scanning except scout passive scanning.

[quote=Zatara Rought]I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0[/quote

I admit its interresting.
Ive put the values in Haerrs sheet. There are problems, for example the pro max GalLogi sees all and thats not right for scouts. It should at least have a contestant in the same range.
Thats why I use Haerrs, it covers all the possibilities.

Here is Cat Mercs values in the sheet:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM/view?usp=sharing

Later I-¦ll post a tweaked version.

I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0

Cet Mercs brilliant work here

Cet Merc

The problem with this is the same problem with many of the other nerfs.

The Gal scout IS the problem. It is the OP suit. Not the Amarr or the Minja. The Cal has it's own separate issues.

These kind of changes only increase imbalance by making Gal scouts the most viable.

In what way will you ensure that these changes will actually nerf what the problem is without further eroding, and once again dismissing, the group of people dedicated to those roles?

Heys guys.
I-¦m still tweaking Cat Mercs sheet values and had to try something out because as you could see assaults and heavys had no chance in that last sheet (example, sentinel would need 2 complex damps to evade another sentinel...)
Since all bonuses are percentage based, I had to use a dampening and precision scale from 1 to 200.
I still have problems with the Gal Logi, its bonus needs to be scrapped and the precision values, per suit and scanner, have to be fixed or else it doesn-¦t fit well in the scale.
Beacause of so many variables, I favor scrapping the cloak bonus.

I can already say the result for mediums and heavys and provisional amarr/min scout values look like this:
To not be seen on TACNET:
Sentinel needs 1B damp versus Commando in short range
Commando needs 1B damp versus Sentinel in short range (this could be tweaked so not so)

Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus assault in short range
Comm/Sent needs 1B damp versus assault in medium range

Comm/Sent needs 1C+E damp versus Cal/Min Scout in short range
Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus Cal/Min Scout in medium range

Comm/Sent needs 3C damp versus Gal Scout in short range
Comm/Sent needs 2C damp versus Gal Scout in medium range
Comm/Sent needs 1C damp versus Gal Scout in long range

Comm/Sent needs 2C damp versus 2 complex precision assault in medium range

Assault needs 1E damp against another assault in short range. In Medium nothing is needed
Assault needs nothing against comm/sent with 1 complex precision in medium range
Assault needs 1C damp against Cal/Min Scout in short range and 1E in medium
Assault needs 1C damp against Gal Scout in medium range, 1E in long. 2C in short range
Assault needs 1C+E damp against 2 complex precision assault
Assault needs 2C damp or more against 2 complex precisions Logi
Assault needs 2C+B damp against Amarr Scout in medium range, 1C in long range
Assault needs 1C+E against Cal/Min Scout in medium range, 2C+1B in short range

A/M Scout needs 1B damp against assault in short range, nothing in medium
A/M Scout needs 1E damp against Comm/Sent in short range

These are "sort of values" because of the cloak.
Post the new sheet later.

Honestly, dont remember, but you quoted me today so I thinks its those:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2479307#post2479307

Your Values: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=https%3a%2f%2fdrive.google.com%2ffile%2fd%2f0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM%2fview%3fusp%3dsharing&domain=google.com

Were a bit to agressive and hard for assaults and heavys, and I think the intended is the inverse.
If these are not your latest, then I missed something along the way...

Here is the final proposal.

It is heavily based off of the community feedback, but Cat Merc's combination of Planetary Conquest meta review and thoughtful spreadsheet was exceptional. Thanks everyone, especially those that posed "this should be scanned by this" were very good for those last "yeah, that makes really good sense" tweaks.

Final Numbers

To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile

Let me stop you here.
This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role.
You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels.
This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m.

Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it.
Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded.

Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes.

Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field.

Yep. Bravo. I'm done.
Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out.

How many times have you 'been done' now? Oh well, see ya in a week or whatever Appia.

Nyaa^n?

This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent.