DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] EWAR Concentric Circle Scan Falloff Design

Zatara Rought wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

iWanderer wrote:

[quote=Zatara Rought]I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0[/quote

I admit its interresting.
Ive put the values in Haerrs sheet. There are problems, for example the pro max GalLogi sees all and thats not right for scouts. It should at least have a contestant in the same range.
Thats why I use Haerrs, it covers all the possibilities.

Here is Cat Mercs values in the sheet:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM/view?usp=sharing

Later I-¦ll post a tweaked version.

It sees all but 4x dampened Gallente Scout.

This is a very specialized and unwieldy piece of equipment (Focused scanner), put on a suit that has no other reason to exist.
If you don't use a scanner, you might as well use a different Logi suit.

Hence it's fitting that getting under it is extremely hard.

I also think for example that just because the gal scout is the only scout that could avoid such scans in the sheet does not mean that this won't further be influenced (hopefully) by other actions that scouts could take to reduce profile further...ex crouching.

I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly. I agree the focused scanner on the gal logi suit...while being 14 PG...that's 5 seconds or so on 1/8 of the radius of the map. With the long cooldown time

Even with 4 you can't keep "perma scans up" and even if you could keeping them up would be limited...again..by the 1/8th of the map you can see with the 45 degrees the focused covers.

If it did prove to be OP i'd reduced it so that the min and amarr could be unscannable with 3 damps + proto cloak.

But the focused does little beyond "keep the enemy honest" in it's current iteration.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5925	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:10:00 - [1] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I have a lot of red flags about providing scouts with advantages in all 3 aspects of e-war. Somewhat confused. Why can't squishy scouts be better at EWAR than 1000+ HP units? And if Zatara had his way, what would want Scouts to do in PC? Oh they absolutely should. Who insinuated otherwise? But when a squishy scout has the meta in all three aspects of e-war then you get to today in PC...where scouts are only not the most spammed thing in PC because when assaulting a point heavies ehp/hmg dps >cloak/re scouts. What should their purpose in PC be? You take scouts in 1.7 and add in the extra high or low and the equip slot...to say nothing of the cloak..and 1.7 woulda been awesome. I am by no means a PC player, but when cloaks are intimately tied to EWAR (all except for Gal), and you at the very least have a higher occurrence of Gal Logi's with Focused scanners and Amarr with max precision than pubs/FW, then you in essence force them to use the cloaks. No maybe there is some fluke where PC players aren't maxing their passive and active scanning abilities, I don't know. But it seems to me that in PC, of all places, because of the likelyhood to max out suit fittings, and having EWAR tied up in cloaks, that it is only natural that is what they would use. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5930	Posted - 2014.11.18 01:01:00 - [2] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Edit: Yeah I don't know what exactly of my post you're responding to/contesting. Care to clarify? I think my mind may have cobbled together an argument about only seeing a cloak, which I either miss read, or pulled out of my brains RAM from another post I saw inadvertently. OR I had a good reason, but can't remember what it is at the moment. My apologizes. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5942	Posted - 2014.11.18 03:47:00 - [3] - Quote @ Zatara If you were to take 2 of the 3 EWAR aspects away from scouts, scanning and range, and give them to medium frames: 1) What would the Caldari (Range), and Amarr (Precision) get in return for their sacrifice? 2) What would the medium frames getting these added bonuses be giving up? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5951	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:11:00 - [4] - Quote Haerr wrote: One way of encouraging Scouts to use a cloak is to have inactive cloaks give a passive bonus to dampening and larger bonus to dampening when active. Figured I'd just throw it out there. Edit: So instead of attaching the dampener bonus to one scout or another it is given to any scout who fits a cloak. At this point I would prefer the opposite and get rid of the cloak profile reduction so I am not forced to even use them. I find them to be more of a liability now. Especially considering I get the damn cloak delay even when switching from an inactive cloak. The Telling Truth wrote: Unless this proposal shakes up scout from always having the best starting point in precision vs mediums and allows a context for mediums to damp up from scouts this will do nothing to change the current meta of scouts beating every suit I own except my heavy suit and only that has a chance when i'm in a group of people watching my back. e-war with a few changes {scouts needing less damps to get under focused and fixing the 360 scans} was a much better system pre 1.8. The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen. If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers. Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps. It is ONLY when you get to scouts with 2 Complex PEs that you begin to have a problem, as at that point Medium Frames can't beat Amarr scans, BUT you have to consider that Amarr are sacrificing all their High Slots to get this advantage AND that this is their role! Caldari and Minamatar with 2 Complex Precision Enhancers can STILL be beaten with 3 Complex Dampeners. Gallente scans can STILL be beaten, but you have to sacrifice 5 slots for Complex Dampeners to do so, there again Gallente are sacrificing ALL THEIR HIGH SLOTS, and you can STILL beat their scans!! It is ONLY when Caldari and Minmatar sacrifice ALL their High Slots that you cannot beat their scans! Even then, if tied precision/dampening went to the dampener instead of the scanner you could beat them! TL;DR wrote: There is plenty of room for Medium Frames in the EWAR picture as it currently stands. Simply changing the mechanics such that scanner/dampener ties favored the dampener and not the scanner would go a long way towards increasing the flexibility for EWAR under the current system. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5952	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:49:00 - [5] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: No. No, there isn't. Medframes are not even remotely close to competing in this environment. That is like saying because scouts can't compete directly in HP that they are somehow broke and in need of fixing. They are SUPPOSED to be EWAR kings, having sacrificed SIGNIFICANT HP in order to do so. Fitting requirements are such that if they were to try and be unscannable (which would require active cloak for 3 out of the 4 scouts and thus negating any precision modules they use) they would essentially be sacrificing ALL TANKING ABILITY to do so! Only the Gallente, who could get away without needing the proto cloak and all the fitting costs that entails could really make a go of it. If you aren't willing to rework the HP discrepancies between suits, there is zero reason to significantly alter EWAR changes for scouts given that EWAR is to make up for their reduced HP. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5958	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:56:00 - [6] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: 13ard wrote: What happened in your scenario of 'low ehp', cloak, e-war gods? We have what we have now. Where shotgun scouts > all except a blob of heavies. This can't really be overstated. 1.8 made it scout 514 unless you blob heavies. Assaults can get by in pubs but they are lol in a competitive environment when you aren't facing blueberries. I couldn't agree more with that assessment. Compare that to 1.7 where scouts did not have cloaks, the meta on precision (and mediums were participants in the e-war game) and more...and scouts in the competitive scene were VERY much viable and had a critical role. The gal logi focused meta should replace the meta of focused scanners in 1.7 and it SHOULD take you three damps to get below it (or 2 complex and a basic or cloak IMO for gal) because of the HUGE disadvantages a focused has. I apologize in advance if you already answered these and I missed it. 1) What do the Amarr (Precision) and Caldari (Range) get for sacrificing their current roles? 2) What sacrifices will the Medium Frames make to get this new bonus? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5961	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:56:00 - [7] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I apologize in advance if you already answered these and I missed it. 1) What do the Amarr (Precision) and Caldari (Range) get for sacrificing their current roles? 2) What sacrifices will the Medium Frames make to get this new bonus? Umm.. Great question. Cal scout is very much welcome to retain the meta on range. but it's precision will be such that without mods it should only pick up heavies and all equips...barring investment into precision mods. Amarr scout could retain it's bonus...simply moving the bar back (again on precision) would make it as competitive in the precision game as a 1 complex precision invested assault or logi (whichever one get's the best innate base precision) So it would be covering a weakness and turning it into a mild strength...instead of it being the meta of passive scans. As for mediums giving up stuff? Logi's/Assaults in non lol blueberry environments are horrifically UP. What did scouts give up in exchange for the cloak...an extra slot...and extra equip..after 1.7? Cal scout doesn't HAVE any bonus to precision. It gets the same as a Minja. It just has the ability to use 4 High Slots that the other suits don't posess. Where would you move the bar back to? If they get to keep their bonus, and yet Medium frames can have superior precision, you simply make them Assault Lite. Given the high value of HP, and their having inferior HP to Assaults, what incentive would anyone have to use an Amarr scout? I believe that the equipment changes mentioned will go a long way to making them the best support role again (without having to change EWAR meta). Also, there is plenty of room to reduce scout regen, particularly with shields, and make sure that Assaults have superior regen. This would also be a buff to that need not nerf EWAR. It s not that I think Medium frames are fine, its just that I don't believe changing EWAR roles to be an answer. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5961	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:58:00 - [8] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly, just removing cloaks would help balance so much. I honestly don't think so. And I don't want that to happen. The BEST part about cloaking is that it allows their users to actively influence their e-war. We don't want scouts nerfed into oblivion (not that I think removing the cloak would) and we don't want to remove content. I personally don't care for where the cloak is right now. As far as I am concerned, you can reduce the fitting costs on it such that everyone can fit it the same way a scout can. Let them run around with it and see how over rated it is now. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5961	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:04:00 - [9] - Quote There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5961	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:10:00 - [10] - Quote There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6155	Posted - 2014.11.25 05:05:00 - [11] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Cat Merc wrote: iWanderer wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought]I still am very much in love with Cet Mercs brilliant work here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DrCb0IiA3G3MjjnObKURzEQBl46sfzbtIOKN_4iJWdM/edit#gid=0[/quote I admit its interresting. Ive put the values in Haerrs sheet. There are problems, for example the pro max GalLogi sees all and thats not right for scouts. It should at least have a contestant in the same range. Thats why I use Haerrs, it covers all the possibilities. Here is Cat Mercs values in the sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHRFNvTmtTbFRRYmM/view?usp=sharing Later I-¦ll post a tweaked version. It sees all but 4x dampened Gallente Scout. This is a very specialized and unwieldy piece of equipment (Focused scanner), put on a suit that has no other reason to exist. If you don't use a scanner, you might as well use a different Logi suit. Hence it's fitting that getting under it is extremely hard. I also think for example that just because the gal scout is the only scout that could avoid such scans in the sheet does not mean that this won't further be influenced (hopefully) by other actions that scouts could take to reduce profile further...ex crouching. I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly. I agree the focused scanner on the gal logi suit...while being 14 PG...that's 5 seconds or so on 1/8 of the radius of the map. With the long cooldown time Even with 4 you can't keep "perma scans up" and even if you could keeping them up would be limited...again..by the 1/8th of the map you can see with the 45 degrees the focused covers. If it did prove to be OP i'd reduced it so that the min and amarr could be unscannable with 3 damps + proto cloak. But the focused does little beyond "keep the enemy honest" in it's current iteration. The problem with this is the same problem with many of the other nerfs. The Gal scout IS the problem. It is the OP suit. Not the Amarr or the Minja. The Cal has it's own separate issues. These kind of changes only increase imbalance by making Gal scouts the most viable. In what way will you ensure that these changes will actually nerf what the problem is without further eroding, and once again dismissing, the group of people dedicated to those roles? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6272	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:21:00 - [12] - Quote So are the numbers in the spreadsheet general, requiring us to figure out how racial bonuses add to the changes, or are racial bonuses being removed? I only ask because they are not directly addressed in the spreadsheet itself (perhaps for ease of reading). Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6272	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:15:00 - [13] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. EDIT: Additionally, EWAR should be accessible to suits other than scouts. And HP should be accessible to suits other than heavies. That doesn't mean that Light and Medium frames should be near to on par with Heavies. This game so far is EWAR vs HP. Right now, HP is winning. These changes are complex. The greater the complexity, the greater the chance for errors and massive problems. If done incorrectly, these changes will negate entire roles. That could be Assaults, it could be scouts. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6272	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:17:00 - [14] - Quote Ok, here is my question with the proposal. I am seeing an Amarr scout with 2 CPE mods getting 13 dB from 0 to 12 m. How does that change if that same scout adds 1 Complex Range amp? What will the precision penalty be? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6276	Posted - 2014.12.01 23:33:00 - [15] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Except both the logi and the shortscan assault won't pick up the scout unless he's not dampened at all. If you're not investing at all in any dampening, it shouldn't take significant investment to pick you up on scan. The Minscout is less of a problem than, say, a Galscout who doesn't dampen because he already has a bonus for it. Shifting the bonus to module efficacy and then tweaking EWAR values so that undampened scouts can be picked up without massive difficulty means that you don't end up with scouts who eschew dampening except in a small handful of situations but have fitted a load of other mods without sacrificing EWAR security. Inherent scout EWAR supremacy should not be so strong without fitting any mods. There are few problems with scouts fitted for EWAR being good at EWAR. EDIT: Additionally, EWAR should be accessible to suits other than scouts. And HP should be accessible to suits other than heavies. That doesn't mean that Light and Medium frames should be near to on par with Heavies. This game so far is EWAR vs HP. Right now, HP is winning. These changes are complex. The greater the complexity, the greater the chance for errors and massive problems. If done incorrectly, these changes will negate entire roles. That could be Assaults, it could be scouts. I'm sorry, but so far...min maxing HP (heavies) AND e-war (scouts) are winning. Fact is shotgun scouts are quite deadly to heavies and an iwin button to everything else aside from rooftop campers if you don't have an uplink..and the only place they aren't is blobs, which is when re's are more useful. But do not mistake it. The data affirms in competitive meta...the scout is the most useful/versatile suit...the heavy suit is good for blobbing. The data that Rattati showed from PC had the top 2 spots going to heavies, with Gal Scout in 3rd. What about the other scouts? Rattati says Cal scouts are OP, and I believe him (but to my mind that has more to do with straffing, which is broken for everyone, not just Caldari Scouts). I would love to see a more comprehensive list. Not to mention that a lot of what makes the Gal Scout so HP/EWAR versatile is the passive vs module efficacy bonus, which I would have loved to have seen implimented before the EWAR rings. I do not argue that there are problems. I do not even always argue that they are different problems (though if you tell me Minmatar are OP you better show me some data to back such an insane idea). What I argue is that the "fixes" are not fixing the real problems, and are further creating imbalances rather than reducing them. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6280	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:42:00 - [16] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. Please don't buff the cloak. Your previous numbers looked fine. I'm not sure why a bunch of unconstructive complaining about someone's pet role being affected should be justification to back off a good and balanced proposal. I am confused about how wanting to have a role in a balanced setting is considered being a "pet role" and how your comment is any more constructive than the other complaints. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6283	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:21:00 - [17] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. While buffing the cloak active damp bonus would help the MinScout, it could also resurface old problems with uparmored Gallente Scouts. At 15%, one complex damp + proto cloak beats 18dB. That leaves alot of room for GalScout HP tank, which will serve to widen the GalScout usage divide. I apologize, but I honestly can't help you with this much more than offering my 2 cents. I'm of the opinion that fixing HP tank and efficacy bonuses would've fixed the Scout. I think the reduced inner circle would be enough to work within Minmatar roles, and we don't need to further increase Gal Scout OPness. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6289	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:27:00 - [18] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Just to remind you what happens when scouts DON'T need to use a significant amount of slots to dampen against even the most powerful of super scanners: 1.8 Rattati, I've seen this happen far too many times. Don't let the Barbershop lobby destroy what will finally put medium frames into the EWAR game. Just to remind you before another bullshit change happens like I've seen too many times in the past. (Cough Cloak Delay would destroy scouts Cough) The "Barbershop Lobby" is not a thing, as many of us often disagree with each other on many aspects. That being said, some of the members have long been advocates for changing to a module efficacy based bonus as opposed to passive bonuses and tanking. In fact, we have often warned against tanking, and I personally have always wanted a cloak delay. Shall I point you to the section before 1.8 even released when many of us said that shooting from cloak was a bad idea? Or to the point in which I advocated for a delay long before Rattati suggested it would be implimented? Or how about how Haerr suggested something similar to the Range nerf while cloaked (which did ruin the cloak for those of us who used it appropriately to begin with)? Get a life Cat Merc. I actually used to like you, but clearly you just want to spread lies and rumor. You are espousing people to have said things that are clearly contradictory to what was actually said for the sake of inflaming anti scout sentiment. It is no way constructive or helpful. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"