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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.17 13:06:00 -
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WeapondigitX V7 wrote:Please make scouts be unscannable if they are beyond 45m ranges with 2 complex damps. (for enemies with ewar dedicated fittings)
With 3 complex damps please make scouts unscannable within 15 meters of the enemy (if enemy has Ewar dedicated fits)
The nova knive scouts should be viable in PC.
Make scouts need 4 complex damps to be unscannable within approx 10 meters. (when enemy is using ewar dedicated fits)
All the above refers to passive scanning.
Scouts sacrifice a lot using ewar dedicated fits. Be paranoid and look around a lot while in a squad and you''ll kill that sneaky scout sometimes. (if they use no hp mods and you have good aim, little lag)
...Unless I am reading the spreadsheet completely wrong, with these numbers, scouts with 2 complex damps would be unscannable at all ranges, even by a logi with 4 precision enhancers. And it would even take 3 enhancers to catch a scout with only one dampener at short-medium range. 
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.17 14:42:00 -
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CCP Rattati wrote:It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' 
Sure, just as it can be quite frustrating to ask for changes to the scanning system that would make it less black and white and would make ewar somewhat viable for non scouts, and keep getting told "it's not possible". Instead of, say, " we are actively working on a way to make that feasible". Just saying.
But, as it is now possible, here are some comments.
You imply you want medium suits to have a meaningful way of using ewar. However, these numbers don't really reflect that.
A logi with even 4 precision enhancers is unable to detect a scout with 2 dampeners even at close range. And 3 enhancers would be needed to overcome just one dampener at medium-close range. So, there is hardly a point in trying to use passive scans to detect scouts, so now it becomes a matter of whether sacrificing health/other utility is worth it just to detect some potential other medium frames that are using dampeners. In pre-1.8 conditions, this was useful, as medium frames, even dampened ones, were the most common on the battlefield. With the current 'balance' of scouts>heavies>everything else... it's hard to see the utility of fitting enhancers just to detect the odd medium frame, not when it has fat chance of detecting the scouts that are actually the major threat. Now, an assault with dampeners will have some utility, though I don't see the trend of self-prescribed 'slayers' choosing a scout suit over an assault suit (with exceptions, of course, always existing) really being overcome by these changes alone. I can't offer you a perfect solution, but in my opionion a place to start looking at would be increasing scout base profile.
The scan ranges are another issue. With scan precision 'degrading' over range, I do think there is a case to be made for an overall increase in base ranges, at least for the medium frames. Not a major one, but something to push the short range out a little bit more. Or at least reconsider the short range to be more in the area of 35-40% of the total range... With the proposed numbers, an assault with 2 range extenders and 4 enhancers would detect a scout with 1 dampener at about 7.5m meters... well within shotgun optimal, if I'm not mistaken.
There, that's my 0.02isk. I am not into spreadsheets, and I believe as I am not a member of the Barbershop, going into such detail in a matter somewhat relating to scouts would be a wasted effort anyway 
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.17 15:10:00 -
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I-Shayz-I wrote:I love this game, and I have been running complex dampeners on my logi/assault...heck even my sentinel sometimes even if it is a waste of a module when you do the math.
I want this idea to work, but the current system is so complicated that not everyone is willing to do the math on these things in order to figure out if certain modules are worth it to use.
SO PLEASE RATTATI
Can we finally get e-war stats added to the fitting screen?
Because if doing a complete overhaul of e-war isn't an option then we at least need to have a way to look at numbers and create numbers in-game rather than sitting here calculating then every time we want to discuss e-war?
Don't get me wrong, I love math, but I hate providing feedback on this subject simply because of this reason.
This. So very much this.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.17 15:25:00 -
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Ghost Kaisar wrote:\o/
We've been asking for this for awhile. This should mean that high precision high range scouts wont completely dominate the meta, and that assaults won't be blindsided by undamped scouts if they have a precision mod on.
The battlefield is going to get a lot more dynamic on the eWAR side, and I LIKE IT.
2 precision mods, if we go by the proposed numbers. And still not at full scan range. As in, an undampened scout can get to 11m of an assault who has 2 enhancers equipped before being detected...
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.22 01:26:00 -
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Ok, in the last few days I have talked and thought about various ways we could try and make the EWAR system work. It really is hard to find a balance between scouts dedicating their fits to being properly stealthy getting rewarded for doing so and medium frames being able to have a chance at actually participating in EWAR. As we stand now, even with the proposed changes, scouts will continue to easily, with practically no sacrifices, beat any and all attempts from medium frames at participating in the EWAR game. There have been many interesting propositions in this thread for making EWAR more dynamic, including things like actions directly affecting profile. But seems we are, for now, due to technical imitations stuck with a more static system.
I have a general outline in my head that I have been toying with, that I find very appealing, though I know most people who even bother to read this will probably disagree with it. But hey, loads of people have made all sorts of suggestions here, so why not.
First of all, let's keep the concentric circle system, with the reduced scan precision at longest ranges. But instead of just slightly higher precision in the smallest circle, I propose (as have some others) that everything, no matter the profile, is visible in the short range. I think this is not an inconvenience to even the stealthiest of playstyles, because no matter how many dampeners you stack on, you still have to use your brains to decide on direction and timing of approaches, use situational awareness and speed to maximum effect, take advantage of windows of opportunity created by the actions of other players. And the short range we are talking about here is quite short, distances a scout can close almost instantaneously.
Now, you might say, why would anyone use precision enhancers if everything is can be scanned regardless? Well, precision enhancers would still work to improve your passive scans at medium to long range, and can serve to give you an advance warning about danger heading your way. So, they'd still be just as useful.
On the other hand, what does it matter if your scans show you a scout that's about to remove your spleen when they are already within the very short scan range of the inmost circle? Well, it might not, in some cases. But I do think that it may give one a fighting chance, due to the split second of being able to start to react, turn, dodge, whatever when that red blip shows up on your radar instead of only after the scout in question is already happily running off with your kidneys in hand, on his way to find a black market trader for clone mercenary organs...
Now, ranges. I think the current base ranges for medium frames (and possibly heavies, however I am not so much concerned about them, as they do have their massive HP and insanely high dps as defences :P) need to be improved on.
3.something meter short range scans are meaningless, both in Rattati's system, and in my theoretical one. I propose assaults and logis both should have a BASE range somewhere around 20m (at the very least over 15m), just so their short scan radius reaches a useful distance... Of course scout base ranges could also be adjusted upwards to retain their superiority to medium frames in this aspect. Though I do also see that if we increase base ranges too much, range amplifier modules may become ridiculous at their current percentages, but they could be adjusted to work with longer base ranges. My aim with this is that a medium frame with max skills would have a passive short range scan of at least about 7-8m. Well within shotgun range, barely an eyeblink for a nova knifer to close in.
So, how does this help medium frame participation in EWAR? Well, I personally don't think medium frames can or should compete with scouts in stealth... Assaults can choose to dampen to try and hide themselves from active scanners/other mediums/heavies etc. But they don't need to reach the levels of dampening a scout can. But mediums should have a decent chance at detecting scouts, yes, even dampened ones. And the numbers we have seen really don't include a decent chance for that, 1 or 2 dampeners would be enough to competely hide a scout from any scans a medium frame is capable of. So, sacrificing slots for enhancers seems rather pointless. But if a medium frame can see a scout in their short range scans, the dynamic becomes less one-sided. Now everyone can choose to increase their effectiveness against stealthy players by increasing their scan range... as increased scan range would also slightly increase the radius of the short range scans.
Now, I happen to think that shared passive scans would break this system... But I also think that shared passive scans already break the game, a little. I would be happy to see them go, and make EWAR a little more interesting at the same time.
I know I'm not going into a lot of detail as far as numbers are concerned, and I don't have a spreadsheet to show my work, but I don't see the point for something that is entirely just a throw away idea :)
Well, anyway, essay over, my other 0.02isk, whatever. Tell me I'm an idiot.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.22 02:53:00 -
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el OPERATOR wrote:
Umm...you're an idiot? XD
Thank you 
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.11.22 11:54:00 -
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iWanderer wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:
...So, how does this help medium frame participation in EWAR? Well, I personally don't think medium frames can or should compete with scouts in stealth... Assaults can choose to dampen to try and hide themselves from active scanners/other mediums/heavies etc. But they don't need to reach the levels of dampening a scout can. But mediums should have a decent chance at detecting scouts, yes, even dampened ones. And the numbers we have seen really don't include a decent chance for that, 1 or 2 dampeners would be enough to competely hide a scout from any scans a medium frame is capable of. So, sacrificing slots for enhancers seems rather pointless. But if a medium frame can see a scout in their short range scans, the dynamic becomes less one-sided. Now everyone can choose to increase their effectiveness against stealthy players by increasing their scan range... as increased scan range would also slightly increase the radius of the short range scans.
You shoukd see my proposal: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=https%3a%2f%2fdrive.google.com%2ffile%2fd%2f0ByLpG42z7QGHZHlUa3BhRW5IV3c%2fview%3fusp%3dsharing&domain=google.comand see if the ranges are what you were saying. As to the rest, you are to focused on range and precision and forget damps. And also remember slot configuration. Take the opposites, Caldari, lots of high slots means precision mods for all suits and the scouts have the range. Gallente, low slots, lots of damps and range if needed, scout have a precision bonus because of a few high slots The other two are in between. See the sheet and think on it.
I think you maybe missed the point a little, I was purely talking about changes that would give medium frames a chance at EWAR, my post had nothing to do with balancing the scout class internally. And I stated that dampening, in my opinion, is not a specialty in which mediums can or should compete with scouts.
The ranges I proposed were very conservative to start with, the ones in the spreadsheet Cat Merc posted are closer to what I really had in mind, though I think he balances the effect of longer base ranges by reducing the skill bonus instead of toning down the range amplifier module bonus.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:42:00 -
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Ghost Kaisar wrote:
No scout should be forced to run all of their lows to avoid scans. It's the point of the damn suit to be hidden, yet I can only BARELY do so when running the most sneaky suit possible.
That isn't balance.
So, a scout shouldn't have to specialize in stealth to avoid a highly specialised scanning fit? You think it would be reasonable for any scout to only have to use 1 dampener to avoid any and all scans, even your proposed 'offender', the logi with 8 module slots dedicated to scanning?
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.12.01 16:50:00 -
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Jebus McKing wrote:How about we give precision mods a penalty to range instead? This way you'd have to choose between good scans or good range without having to screw around with CAL/AM scout bonuses or having to make range amps high slot modules. (Damps could also give a penalty to precision, just saying...  ) Zaria Min Deir wrote:So, a scout shouldn't have to specialize in stealth to avoid a highly specialised scanning fit? You think it would be reasonable for any scout to only have to use 1 dampener to avoid any and all scans, even your proposed 'offender', the logi with 8 module slots dedicated to scanning? So, 5 Heavies can each stack 1500HP and still get the same scanning advantage as that one Logi in their squad, right? Sounds totally balanced to me. As long as passive scans are shared, dampening has to be WAY MORE effective than scans. And if we did not have shared passives, damps would still need to be better than precision mods because of the nature of the advantage they give.
I've wanted passive scans to be removed as well, but we are not getting that. And, sure, dampening should be more effective, but WAY MORE is the issue here. We might as well go '**** all changes to the ewar system' in that case and leave it as is. And those heavies can get just as much scanning advantage, if not more, from having a scout in their squad instead of a logi, except that scout will have more survivability (due to speed and dampening) than the logi does. Balanced? Maybe not, but that's what we have to live with.
Ghost Kaisar wrote:
When the HELL have I ever suggested this?
The ONLY case where this is acceptable is on the Cal scout, since they don't have the low slots to properly damp.
If you want to balance around "Well I'm using more slots", then all suits need the same number of slots.
Scouts only have 6, Logis have 9. They will beat scouts every time in eWAR UNLESS you change some bonuses around to compensate.
I don't want my scout to be some all seeing, all evading god.
I just want to dodge scans in my Minja without horrifically gimping my fit. Hell, I'm fine with running 2x damps 24/7, because thats what I ACTUALLY DO RIGHT NOW.
But 3x damps 24/7 is killer. I might as well run a Gal scout in that scenario, since he still has a low slot to play with. Hell, he can run a kincat and be faster than me as well. Why even run a minja?
Cal scouts need to run 1-2 damps
Minjas need 2-3
Gal/Amrr need 3-4
If you don't do something like this, Gal/Amarr will always be more viable than their counterparts, due to low slots available for dampening.
That is what it seemed like you were suggesting, that is why I asked you a clarifying question. I think it's not too much to ask for scouts to run at least 2 damps to avoid scans.
Interesting sidenote, running into issues with dealing with the scout RE/cloak shotgun spam, I have been told over and over again that I should just switch the suit I run to counter all the scouts, as my logi has little chance of doing so. Maybe if going against a team willing to sacrifice enough to have such strong scans that they actually require specialized dampenign to avoid covering all important areas, some scouts will have to go and run something else for a change, what can I say. That logi with all ewar modules will be squishy and slow, an easy kill.
And no, I didn't say to balance around a some magic number of slots used, I was just implying I found the edge case of 1 (ONE) dampener being enough to counter 8 (eight) ewar modules to be a bit unbalanced. But sure, I'll see your "let's give all suits the same number of slots" and raise you "let's give all suits the same base stats". Balance, yes?
Also, let me know where you find that min logi with 9 module slots, I'd love to upgrade mine.
But seriously, sure, a logi with all slots dedicated to detecting scouts might beat most scouts in ewar... but that logi will lose against a scout in pratically every aspect. A logi suit almost has worse base everything, less speed, less regen, worse base ewar, it will never be able to hide from proper scans itself. So it having a few more slots than the scout is in my opinion quite fine. Oh yes, health. The logi suit beats the scout in base HP. As the second squishiest suit in the game, they are so OP, might as well remove them from the game.
EDIT: Also, I do agree that these blanket changes obviously hit some scouts (the min, obviously) harder than others. And that there is definitely room for balancing the different racial scouts, not just the scout as one class.
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.12.01 16:55:00 -
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CCP Rattati wrote:Amps decrease Precision
Precision reduces range
Both increase Profile
Do damps decrease precision and range too?
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Zaria Min Deir
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Posted - 2014.12.01 19:24:00 -
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Zatara Rought wrote:as for the fitting cost of a scanner...it's 1/8 the map around you.....45 of 360 degrees. And 14 PG is 1/8 of your total fitting on the highest PG logi's.
So much for the other 2-3 equip slots light weapon, nade, and 8 high/lows.
I've already suggested cloaks need to have fitting reduced.
Not to mention the short visibility duration and long cooldown. The PG cost is far from being the only limiting factor on the use of the focused scanner.
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