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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5088	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:35:00 - [991] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1306	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:20:00 - [992] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. Shields also have projectile damage reduction (HMG),which would make Cal/Min the new heavy killers. Which is why i suggested hybrid tools. It would destroy the 'shields or armor are op' sentiment. My suggestion:take the highest innate suit regen and work from there. E.G.Suit has 50 sp/s. Shield tool adds 38 sp/s (at Pro) to equal 88 (six kin). Then make shield delays vanish while being repped. So,it would add to the innate reps but not encompass them. Then add a Cal/Min bonus to increase that amount (the 38 sp/s rep tool),to keep logistics as the #1 reppers. So,on a 50 sp/s suit it would be 88 total,on a 30 sp/s suit it would be 68 sp/s total. OP? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 688	Posted - 2014.11.18 01:49:00 - [993] - Quote So there are definitely a few ideas out there on how to work a shield repper. I believe that a set amount of shield reps per tool would be a safe approach. Negating a shield delay only is an affect that can be adjusted or removed as Devs see fit. But a shield transporter that just allows a player to recharge shields faster, by removing the innate delays, will be widely variable between every suit, race, and class on the field. I like the Shield Transporter repping a certain amount like the Armor Repper because that set amount can be calculated and adjusted. It can be used in and out of battle with a consistency that allows the Player operating the tools to judge when to use it and, especially in battle, when to communicate to others to fall back to complete the reps. A transporter that was widely varied, that fed off the base recharge of a suit would not allow the Logi to estimate what the best service to provide will be as every suit setup is different. Also, if there is a set amount of reps that is easily seen when countering damage being taken, all leading me to say I want to be able to quickly judge a situation and know the best approach - and one that widely varies is not reliable and will be thrown away by my solutions centered tactics. Now if there was a feature that also put the shield delays at zero when being repped we have a situation like the Armor repper where passives are always active regardless of external repping. But as each class and race has a distinctly different shield regen rate (that can be augmented) overlapping that rate with that of the Transporter would create some very new battle situations. And some new unique builds for when running with a shield repper. I have yet to rep and follow a heavy that has only Armor rep modules in the lows making a total of 200+ per second of regen when a core focused is going to work on them in battle - but I would welcome any stories about how it worked out or if brick tanking and logi reps were just the best way to got. Because this Shield transporter would create situation like that where I begin to wonder if we could start repping through an absurd amount of damage. So I would vote for a Transporter that has a set amount. I am not opposed to a Dual Repper that grants Shields and Armor but it would be interesting to see the numbers that would balance. - but this is also new territory, so who knows. I would be cautious about a system that solely relied on the subjects shield regen, but adding it as a bonus to being shield repped could make for some interesting situations. I will have to give the numbers some thought and run some experiments with fittings to see how it would work out. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2187	Posted - 2014.11.18 02:58:00 - [994] - Quote Meee One wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. Shields also have projectile damage reduction (HMG),which would make Cal/Min the new heavy killers. Which is why i suggested hybrid tools. It would destroy the 'shields or armor are op' sentiment. My suggestion:take the highest innate suit regen and work from there. E.G.Suit has 50 sp/s. Shield tool adds 38 sp/s (at Pro) to equal 88 (six kin). Then make shield delays vanish while being repped. So,it would add to the innate reps but not encompass them. Then add a Cal/Min bonus to increase that amount (the 38 sp/s rep tool),to keep logistics as the #1 reppers. So,on a 50 sp/s suit it would be 88 total,on a 30 sp/s suit it would be 68 sp/s total. OP? So shields will have less health and less reps from their rep tool. How is this balanced? Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1308	Posted - 2014.11.18 05:38:00 - [995] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Meee One wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool. Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP. Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar. This benefits no one. Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen. Shields aren't meant to be stand and deliver defense or good for brawling. Rep tools with even numbers with armor would merely encourage the behavior and laziness over tactics. It'll also just change most favored suits from Amsent/galsent to Calsent/Minsent. So we swap one idiocy engine for the same thing with different looks. Shields also have projectile damage reduction (HMG),which would make Cal/Min the new heavy killers. Which is why i suggested hybrid tools. It would destroy the 'shields or armor are op' sentiment. My suggestion:take the highest innate suit regen and work from there. E.G.Suit has 50 sp/s. Shield tool adds 38 sp/s (at Pro) to equal 88 (six kin). Then make shield delays vanish while being repped. So,it would add to the innate reps but not encompass them. Then add a Cal/Min bonus to increase that amount (the 38 sp/s rep tool),to keep logistics as the #1 reppers. So,on a 50 sp/s suit it would be 88 total,on a 30 sp/s suit it would be 68 sp/s total. OP? So shields will have less health and less reps from their rep tool. How is this balanced? Well,shield tanks aren't supposed to be head-to-head combat. But imagine,if you will: -A Cal assault,shield tanked -A Cal logistics,shield repping If the tool removes all delays,that frees up all the Cal assaults' lows for things other than regs. Like: -damps -biotics -codebreakers Or even what logistics often gets tethered to,heavies. A Cal sent with a Cal logistics would be a fearful combo to encounter. And so would Gal sent with a Gal logistics. The Amarr logistics (which is the slowest) can rep from farther,it's range helps it recoup for its speed. Min,always being on the move have the lowest eHP pool,which is why hybrid tools would be fantastic,rep both tanks a marginal amount to keep on the move. Shield repping would offer a unique bonus that armor repping doesn't/can't,a whole low slot(s) open for alternative uses. It also would reward teamwork by saying "sure,you can go solo,or you can have a logibro and have all your lows freed up". Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3893	Posted - 2014.11.18 06:12:00 - [996] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: The Logistics bonus would have to be in the neighborhood of 75% net total to get my fittings anything close to what they are now.... and that is still untenable for most of the solid fits. Throttle PG/CPU but make it count with the bonus. I can math it if needed. But I'll trust you Cross. I would love to see numbers worked up especially with any annotation on how and why the contrast the current listings. This proposal has undergone so many revisions both within the community and internally (usually meaning I find out something either does not, or cannot, work mechanically as I had hoped and thus must be worked around) that it is sometimes hard for me to keep track of whether everything is current and as it should be with regard to the numeric details (these are of course important details but they are often derivative ones as well which makes them harder to keep track of). Anyway, if a concept seems sound but the specific numbers do not execute it properly then by all means feel free to provide alternatives you know me I'm big into discourse. Now, you have an entire post with a lot more 'meat' to it than the bit I've excerpted above and I am still reading (and re-reading) the thread but I just wanted to get this bit out right now. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 689	Posted - 2014.11.18 06:20:00 - [997] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: The Logistics bonus would have to be in the neighborhood of 75% net total to get my fittings anything close to what they are now.... and that is still untenable for most of the solid fits. Throttle PG/CPU but make it count with the bonus. I can math it if needed. But I'll trust you Cross. I would love to see numbers worked up especially with any annotation on how and why the contrast the current listings. This proposal has undergone so many revisions both within the community and internally (usually meaning I find out something either does not, or cannot, work mechanically as I had hoped and thus must be worked around) that it is sometimes hard for me to keep track of whether everything is current and as it should be with regard to the numeric details (these are of course important details but they are often derivative ones as well which makes them harder to keep track of). Anyway, if a concept seems sound but the specific numbers do not execute it properly then by all means feel free to provide alternatives you know me I'm big into discourse. Now, you have an entire post with a lot more 'meat' to it than the bit I've excerpted above and I am still reading (and re-reading) the thread but I just wanted to get this bit out right now. Cheers, Cross Thank you. Yours is a volunteer position. Elected but still a lay person. I appreciate the time you do put into your explanations, arguments, and thought descriptions. Thank you The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3896	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:08:00 - [998] - Quote All of you should check this out. It has a direct impact on the future of support and logistics play, please go read, comment, then come back here for further discussion as well regarding the implications. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 223	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:22:00 - [999] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: All of you should check this out. It has a direct impact on the future of support and logistics play, please go read, comment, then come back here for further discussion as well regarding the implications. Cheers, Cross HOLY CRAP, MY IDEA GOT USED!!! Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5457	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:57:00 - [1000] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: All of you should check this out. It has a direct impact on the future of support and logistics play, please go read, comment, then come back here for further discussion as well regarding the implications. Cheers, Cross Interested in your take on this ^ Particularly when combined with the EWAR changes being discussed. Any concern that the Amarr Logi may become a go to all rounder suit? MOAR Ladders

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3897	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:25:00 - [1001] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Cross Atu wrote: All of you should check this out. It has a direct impact on the future of support and logistics play, please go read, comment, then come back here for further discussion as well regarding the implications. Cheers, Cross Interested in your take on this ^ Particularly when combined with the EWAR changes being discussed. Any concern that the Amarr Logi may become a go to all rounder suit? Doubtful in that fitting a full load of proto equipment, especially uplinks, still requires a great deal of CPU/PG and thus limits other capacities. That being said the greatest risk is that someone uses Amarr Logi fits without equipment in place and thus employs the BW mechanic passively after deploying a max equipment load, thus gaming the fittings system. Preventing exploits like that last case is exactly why I want to shift Logistics CPU/PG values downward somewhat while substantially buffing their role bonus with the net outcome that fittings using full proto equipment in all slots have a bit more fitting flex than they do currently but logi fits without a full rack of equipment have distinctly reduced fittings options than they do currently. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3897	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:26:00 - [1002] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 868	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:03:00 - [1003] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? My main reason for running proto logi in pubs for the majority of my dust career was simply because only having 4 equipment slots instead of 3 was too limiting for me. I can (and do) fit 3 proto equipment of an adv logi, problem is I never feel like I can do my job properly with only 3 slots. +1 equipment (and a minor buff to to fitting) to std and adv level logi suits, (in addition to balancing the mod slot progression) would make lower tier logi suits much more viable. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4581	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:12:00 - [1004] - Quote Wow. Bandwidth is possibly the greatest thing ever. Gonna have to spend some quality time with the spreadhseets and see if I have any input that might help you, Cross. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3903	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:16:00 - [1005] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Nothing against you Cross, but this thread feels more like an idea farm than a productive way to gather feedback. You should convince rattati to create a sticky for a specific change we want feedback about. That's basically what my job description as a CPM amounts to, "gather ideas from the playerbase and transmit them to CCP." "Farm" seems a bit pejorative but aside from that I would have to say "yes of course it is, that's what I was elected to do." In the case of the logistics class we cannot limit it to a 'specific change' in the same way that LW or Sidearm balance could be limited due to the interlinking nature of the support role. Now granted the currently linked version of the proposal is a bit outdated when considered in light of the native rep changes, the eWar debate, and the BW idea. But even so there is a specific proposal for feedback being linked and there really is no meaningful difference between providing feedback on the ideas now or waiting until after I present them to CCP Rattati and only then providing feedback... except that it takes up more of CCP Rattatis time duplicating work. This is one of the key reasons the CPM was formed in the first place, so that the Devs (let alone the team lead) did not need to micro manage everything directly and thus could address a greater volume in a more effective manner. If it is the communities preference that I simply build an idea and try to get CCP to push that directly into game I am certainly able to do so, however if - as I suspect - it is the communities preference to have direct input into shaping the process then this is how it is done, there is really nothing meaningfully different about a blue tag being on the OP. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3935	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:22:00 - [1006] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Actually I have to aplologize. I just read the changes proposed in that spreadsheet on the first page and pretty much agree with everything there. Only two things I have issues with: 1. Leave the changes to logistics racial bonuses alone for now aside from the 50% reduction to equipment and the overal increase in equipment cost. 2. No proposed changes to rebalancing equipment (aside from the deployable changes), yet we're still discussing adding a shield transporter. I'm going to spend the day updating my equipment spreadsheet and will propose some numbers for the variants along with isk prices. Looking forward to it EDIT: and also completing my full on read through of this thread up to current, sorry if some responses or somewhat outdated due to this See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 692	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:18:00 - [1007] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: The Logistics bonus would have to be in the neighborhood of 75% net total to get my fittings anything close to what they are now.... and that is still untenable for most of the solid fits. Throttle PG/CPU but make it count with the bonus. I can math it if needed. But I'll trust you Cross. I would love to see numbers worked up especially with any annotation on how and why the contrast the current listings. This proposal has undergone so many revisions both within the community and internally (usually meaning I find out something either does not, or cannot, work mechanically as I had hoped and thus must be worked around) that it is sometimes hard for me to keep track of whether everything is current and as it should be with regard to the numeric details (these are of course important details but they are often derivative ones as well which makes them harder to keep track of). Anyway, if a concept seems sound but the specific numbers do not execute it properly then by all means feel free to provide alternatives you know me I'm big into discourse. Now, you have an entire post with a lot more 'meat' to it than the bit I've excerpted above and I am still reading (and re-reading) the thread but I just wanted to get this bit out right now. Cheers, Cross MATHS or LOOK AT ME BE COMPLETELY WRONG: Quote: THE Problem with the PG/CPU change, Logi bonus, and equipment change currently proposed What I am looking for is a net benefit from changing my PG/CPU to generally lower CPU and PG. As we have discussed in this thread the LOGIstics Bonus offers a total of 25% off fitting cost of EQuipment. The skill nodes for many pieces of equipment unlock tiered gear and have fitting reduction cost with each level. This cost amounts to another 25% off of fitting costs for whomever levels the skill. Thus, in total a Logi can fit a piece of equipment, with the fitting reduction cost of his class and equipment skill, at 50% the PG/CPU cost. Logi Bonus: 25% Skill Bonus: 25% together it equals 50%. So when an item costs 20 CPU and 10 PG the logi recieves a fitting bonus to make the cost 10CPU and 5PG. The Proposal seeks to change these bonuses by removing the fitting bonus of the equipment skill (Skill Bonus: 0%), make the Logi Bonus 50%, and if that were all we would have a net gain of 0. Because the Logi would still have a total of 50% savings. BUT Equipment Fitting Cost may increase, resulting in net loss. Now the item is 25CPU and 14 PG; and with a fitting bonus of 50% the item is 12.5 CPU and 7PG. An increase in resource cost of 2.5CPU and 2PG - THERE is NO gain for the Logistics Class. On Top of that a PG/CPU Adjustment augments the pain by reducing available CPU and PG Proto Amarr Logi CPU: 390 PG: 72. With our original item of 20CPU/10PG (now 10/5 with the fitting cost reduction) equiped we are left with 380CPU and 67PG. The new Class bonus would leave that the same. (50% is 50%). But with the equipment changes the Logi would now have 378CPU and 65PG = NET LOSS ON TOP of THAT The PG/CPU change makes the Amarr logi now start with 370CPU and 74PG. Equipping our original item under the current system we have 360CPU and 69PG, BUT with the equipment change too we have 357.5CPU and 67PG... NET LOSS For each Racial Proto we have a Loss: Amr: 390/72 to 370/74 and with our item 378/65 to 357.5/67 = Loss of 21 CPU and Gain 2 PGU Cal: 350/78 to 370/74 and with our item 340/73 to 357.5/67 = Gain 17 CPU but Loss of 6 PGU Gal: 390/78 to 370/74 and with our item 380/73 to 357.5/67 = Loss of 23 CPU and 6 PGU Min: 390/78 to 370/74 and with our item 380/73 to 357.5/67 = Loss of 23 CPU and 6 PGU SO, Changes amount to NET LOSS. Not net gain. I use every spare unit of CPU and PG that I have to make great chubby chaser fits but they only fit 3 proto equipment to have proto modules as well. I build great and wonderful suits and dropping the CPU/PG will only hurt them, because many of these suits have to be viable when the team or teammate goes down to survive and bring the team back or run away. Any change in PG/CPU hurt the current builds. So with Fittings I run about 238-282 CPU and 43-50PG with 4E. Protofits.com with max fits, puts the adjusted use @ 186CPU/38PG... which makes me ask: that's 25%, what is the game like? BECAUSE ALL OF THIS ISN'T SOUNDING RIGHT! OK. Figured it out. Everyone Just calm down. Whatever we are saying the Skills are doing its not and they are messed up. I don't get a 50% fitting bonus to Hives, but it was also more than 25%. CCP does math Weird. A Logi does have the 25% Base fitting cost Reduction to Equipment. Some Skills add 25% after the initial Fitting Cost Bonus. Allotek Nano Hive 88CPU/16PG. 50% would be 44/8. 25% would be 66/12. But it ends up 49/12. No Change to PG but 88-(8825%)=66 and 66-(6625%)=49.5 That is how we get there. Two calculations and not one, I forgot we did that along time ago with dampeners. So really it is only a 45%CPU/25%PG bonus with the hidden bonuses. THE LOGI BONUS OF 50% DOES MATTER. AND IS AWESOME! IT would cut my normal equipment CPU/PG use on a proto suit IN HALF to 141CPU/25PG that could be spent on moving and ADV Module or two to Complex! THAT WOULD ROCK! and while the small loss in CPU/PG originally I am now convinced (as many others already were) that it is a NET GAIN for the LOGI. Now that math has proven itself the Logi bonuses I Have no Question about the LOGI CLASS bonus or reduction to CPU/PG. Well Done. While classifying the logi as the best EQ user and making the cost standardized for suits outside the LOGI class. btw: could we make a skill bonus add just 1% so it is not completely usless as a skill for all other classes? THIS IS TOOOOO AWESOME - I love MATH! The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:27:00 - [1008] - Quote For the record, that "hidden" bonus for nanohives comes from the Nanocircuitry skill providing a 5% CPU reduction per level to nanohives and needles. The only flaw of that skill is that it's simply not listed in the description that there's a CPU reduction bonus. Any "hotfix" of that should be to merely add the appropriate description to the skill so it's a case of "oh, hey, if I increase my Nanocircuitry skill, I get access to better hives and a reduction in hive/needle CPU usage? awesome!" Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 692	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:31:00 - [1009] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: For the record, that "hidden" bonus for nanohives comes from the Nanocircuitry skill providing a 5% CPU reduction per level to nanohives and needles. The only flaw of that skill is that it's simply not listed in the description that there's a CPU reduction bonus. Any "hotfix" of that should be to merely add the appropriate description to the skill so it's a case of "oh, hey, if I increase my Nanocircuitry skill, I get access to better hives and a reduction in hive/needle CPU usage? awesome!" Yep, it took me a while but i had to math it out to make sure I understood it. Just something about working through an issue, doing the numbers, and all that that make learning worthwhile. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8510	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:35:00 - [1010] - Quote . CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1309	Posted - 2014.11.19 10:09:00 - [1011] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? Well,this seems ok in theory. But now we have a new factor,bandwith.(which is a great idea) As well as the cost of that extra equipment. 3 equipment slots with all ADV gear = ADV light weapon in costs. 4 equipment slots with all ADV gear = more than an ADV light weapon And as most logis know,ADV equipment is crap once Pro is available. And on my ADV fit i have 3 Pro equipment,which is about 50% of its cost. So,while i would like 4 slots,with such low survivability it would only make logistics that much more of an ISK sink. Logistics needs the built in ability to walk/run fast and hide,not hunt other suits. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1310	Posted - 2014.11.19 12:49:00 - [1012] - Quote Hey cross,i has a question. Is it possible to just straight up swap assaults and logistics speed and stamina values? My reasoning: -eHP (160 greater than logistics) Sent Assault Logis Scout (almost above logistics) -speed (faster than logistics) Scout Assault Logis Sent As plates and heavies show,more eHP = less speed and stamina. Assaults however have 400+ eHP and 0 speed loss. While logistics has 240-300 eHP and speed loss. It seems as if the assault speed penalty was slid over to logistics,while what should be logistics speed and stamina values were given to assaults. It would end like: -eHP(assaults have higher eHP,logistics has lower) Sent Assault Logis Scout -speed (logistics has better speed,assaults have lower) Scout Logistics Assault Sent This would be balanced,speed for eHP. Instead of assaults getting everything and logistics getting the shaft (as it does currently). After all,'slayer' logis were only 'slayers' because their ability to tank high eHP,not because they were fast. And with the 160 extra eHP,combined with logistics (stolen) slots that has become impossible. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4594	Posted - 2014.11.19 13:33:00 - [1013] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? Well,this seems ok in theory. But now we have a new factor,bandwith.(which is a great idea) As well as the cost of that extra equipment. 3 equipment slots with all ADV gear = ADV light weapon in costs. 4 equipment slots with all ADV gear = more than an ADV light weapon And as most logis know,ADV equipment is crap once Pro is available. And on my ADV fit i have 3 Pro equipment,which is about 50% of its cost. So,while i would like 4 slots,with such low survivability it would only make logistics that much more of an ISK sink. Logistics needs the built in ability to walk/run fast and hide,not hunt other suits. I don't think I'd make that blanket statement. KIN injectors are pretty decent now that they give shields, and the BDR-8 rep tool is extremely cost-effective in terms of both ISK and CPU/PG, probably even more so with a Min logi. STD links on my Amarr logi are about the same as anyone else's PRO links. Also, this change would be much bigger for the Amarr/Cal, we only have 2 EQ slots at STD, it's hard to do anything with that. Finally, you could always leave the 4th EQ slot empty (heresy, I know) if you really had to, but with a buff to the fitting bonus I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to put something there, even if was just a compact nano. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1228	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:11:00 - [1014] - Quote there need to be at least 4 main repair tools. 1 caldari shield tool 1 minmatar shield tool 1gallente armor tool 1 amarr armor tool + variants. the first 2 bonuses on a logi ship are always to remote repairers. logis need to reflect this. the second 2 bonuses would be secondary equipment buffs or survivability since not every race has a 2 equipment. actually only caldari does. nanos-injectors. gal have scanners. amarr have the uplinks.and min have explosives. (well 2 explosives, but both explosives) so either give the other 3 logis 3 new pieces of equipment or a small self sufficent tank bonus to counter nanohives on a cal. examples could be radar-comms jammers for gal? webifier mines/tools for minmatar since theyre speed kings? not sure for amarr. anyway you get 2 bonuses to repair tools. then bonuses to secondary equipment or health. and then a blanket rolebonus for all 4. JUST LIKE EVE. Meee One wrote: Hey cross,i has a question. Is it possible to just straight up swap assaults and logistics speed and stamina values? My reasoning: -eHP (160 greater than logistics) Sent Assault Logis Scout (almost above logistics) -speed (faster than logistics) Scout Assault Logis Sent As plates and heavies show,more eHP = less speed and stamina. Assaults however have 400+ eHP and 0 speed loss. While logistics has 240-300 eHP and speed loss. It seems as if the assault speed penalty was slid over to logistics,while what should be logistics speed and stamina values were given to assaults. It would end like: -eHP(assaults have higher eHP,logistics has lower) Sent Assault Logis Scout -speed (logistics has better speed,assaults have lower) Scout Logistics Assault Sent This would be balanced,speed for eHP. Instead of assaults getting everything and logistics getting the shaft (as it does currently). After all,'slayer' logis were only 'slayers' because their ability to tank high eHP,not because they were fast. And with the 160 extra eHP,combined with logistics (stolen) slots that has become impossible. pretty sure a heavy assault cruiser is faster generally than the logistics ships. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5116	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:15:00 - [1015] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Looking forward to it Here ya go :P https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharing Took me a few hours but this is the rough proposal I have for how equipment should be changed based on the feedback in this post and my own personal opinions. For the isk page I decided to standardize prices for equipment...again these are rough numbers not biased on how effective certain equipment are or what is used more. Part of me wanted to do this for FW items but I got about 30 minutes in and realized that until we have a standardized isk price for items it would be impossible to try and give each FW item a fair price. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1316	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:59:00 - [1016] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Looking forward to it Here ya go :P https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharing Took me a few hours but this is the rough proposal I have for how equipment should be changed based on the feedback in this post and my own personal opinions. For the isk page I decided to standardize prices for equipment...again these are rough numbers not biased on how effective certain equipment are or what is used more. Part of me wanted to do this for FW items but I got about 30 minutes in and realized that until we have a standardized isk price for items it would be impossible to try and give each FW item a fair price. I will admit triage hives seemed to have too many clusters... But having Pro level hive with less clusters than even a compact? Don't grenades take 12-24 clusters to refill? So,with this reduction i could refill 8 grenades,woo. And hybrids are bad enough as is,yet you want them to refill less? This seems like a good idea increasing carried amounts,but you're forgetting something. Logis are supposed to be equipment masters,and unless the equipment +carried is logistics exclusive imma say no. And logistics would required a class wide bonus to cluster amount to not completely destroy nanos effectiveness. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3963	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:55:00 - [1017] - Quote Quoting the work of John Demonsbane to provide more clarity on the subject of BW in case anyone is a bit foggy at this point. John Demonsbane wrote: It seems like people are a little confused about how the EQ bandwidth thing is supposed to work, so hereGÇÖs some examples to help make it more clear than RattatiGÇÖs spreadsheet (I do give him a +1 for the use of both GÇ£shenanigansGÇ¥ and GÇ£follyGÇ¥ in a spreadsheet). Personally I like the idea (a lot) so I want to make sure everyone understands its purpose and mechanics before they jump to any conclusions. Example 1: This is exactly what the BW mechanic is intended to stop. -Player starts match in scout suit or speedy min logi suit stacked with uplinks. Litters the map with them along a path leading to supply depot -Switches to another suit, drops a bunch of triage hives at a chokepoint, heads back to supply depot -Switches to HMG sentinel, camps said hives. -Profit. When he dies he respawns in the relatively cheaper sentinel suit while the expensive equipment is used cost-free Example 2: The way I, as a proper Amarr logi specializing in tactical logistics, starts basically every battle: -Spawn in with scout suit with 2 uplinks (the Amarr logi suit is not really any faster than a Min sentinel once you put some armor on it). Place uplinks judiciously, in well-chosen locations (click signature for details) -Switch to Amarr logi suit. Drop a couple more if itGÇÖs a large 5 point map. Do logi stuff with rep tool or nanohives or whatever -Replace uplinks when needed -No profit as my suit is expensive and the d-bag above stole all my WP by dropping his uplinks right on top of mine after spawning on them. GG, dude. -Insert bandwidth here- Example 1a: Same Scout/Sentinel 514 youGÇÖve grown to love, but now with BW! -Player starts match with ADV min logi suit (BW=6 EQ worth) -Craps out 5 uplinks on the way to supply depot in numerical order, #1 under the MCC, #2 in the middle of the road, #3 kinda near the city entrance, etc. -Switches to another ADV min logi suit, drops 3 more (#6,7,8). -Ooops! Exceeded BW of 6 EQ. (5+3 >6). Uplinks #1 and #2 pop. -Returns to supply depot, switches to cloaked shotty scout to display l33t skillz while farming uplink WP -Uh oh. Scout BW = 3 EQ. Uplinks 3-5 pop. Sad face. -Complain on forums Example 2a:You can still be a logi -Spawn in with scout suit (BW = 3 EQ) for initial run, drop 3 uplinks, need to be even more judicious since itGÇÖs only 3 -Switch to Amarr logi suit (BW=8GÇª yay!), drop the remaining uplinks, letGÇÖs call it 5 total. -Do logi stuff. Still have room for 3 REGÇÖs to set a trap or to drop a full complement of proto hives. -Profit. Less equipment is being spammed. No one else is stealing my WP -Rep tool, injector, scanners not affected. I can switch to a medic suit with those 3 things and my EQ stays exactly where it is! Hope this cleared up any confusion. I can always put up a couple other scenarios/examples if desired. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 1000	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:34:00 - [1018] - Quote It is really refreshing to see some of these ideas discussed in this thread coming to life. Long Live Logistics!!! Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5123	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:38:00 - [1019] - Quote Meee One wrote: I will admit triage hives seemed to have too many clusters... But having Pro level hive with less clusters than even a compact? Don't grenades take 12-24 clusters to refill? So,with this reduction i could refill 8 grenades,woo. And hybrids are bad enough as is,yet you want them to refill less? This seems like a good idea increasing carried amounts,but you're forgetting something. Logis are supposed to be equipment masters,and unless the equipment +carried is logistics exclusive imma say no. And logistics would require a class wide bonus to cluster amount to not completely destroy nanos effectiveness. Um The whole point here is to make it so that you can drop more equipment with less effectiveness per drop. This lets you use equipment more often while reducing the overall duration of equipment as to discourage spam. Equipment is still limited to 2 down at a time meaning that you can't just drop a hive (or 5) in an area and expect them to be there when you get back. The whole point is that you must constantly have this equipment on the suit for it to continue to be effective rather than dropping a ** ton of uplinks with 20 spawns on them each that will last forever. In combination with the new bandwidth proposal, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for people to spam equipment while still allowing dedicated logistics players to use tons of equipment. If that's not an insane amount of WIN-WIN to you then you have to be crazy or maybe you don't understand this proposal. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!**
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 693	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:44:00 - [1020] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Meee One wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So with this idea in place, could you please increase STD and ADV logistics to their full PRO equipment count? There would still be a reason to skill up to PRO, but STD and ADV logis wouldn't be so limited in their equipment choice. Interested in everyones take on this notion, balanced, OP, a step for suit progression but not enough on its own? Well,this seems ok in theory. But now we have a new factor,bandwith.(which is a great idea) As well as the cost of that extra equipment. 3 equipment slots with all ADV gear = ADV light weapon in costs. 4 equipment slots with all ADV gear = more than an ADV light weapon And as most logis know,ADV equipment is crap once Pro is available. And on my ADV fit i have 3 Pro equipment,which is about 50% of its cost. So,while i would like 4 slots,with such low survivability it would only make logistics that much more of an ISK sink. Logistics needs the built in ability to walk/run fast and hide,not hunt other suits. I don't think I'd make that blanket statement. KIN injectors are pretty decent now that they give shields, and the BDR-8 rep tool is extremely cost-effective in terms of both ISK and CPU/PG, probably even more so with a Min logi. STD links on my Amarr logi are about the same as anyone else's PRO links. Also, this change would be much bigger for the Amarr/Cal, we only have 2 EQ slots at STD, it's hard to do anything with that. Finally, you could always leave the 4th EQ slot empty (heresy, I know) if you really had to, but with a buff to the fitting bonus I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to put something there, even if was just a compact nano. This is not a newer idea but it hasn't been brought up in this kind of "possible logi update" discussion in a while. I do think that each logi should start with at least 3 EQ slots. It is the draw of the role. 2, Cal and Amarr, is just the same as a scout, and can probably eve logi a bit better at that level with the logi in its current state, but the point is that 2 is not enough to be an effective logi character. And while 3 is nice to cover most bases (injector, Repper, Nano) it is not quite enough to be as effective as a full 4EQ logi is. That fourth slot open up alot of builds to unique situations for Uplinks, scanners, or demolitions while still retaining the ability to support the team. Classes upgrade with their role and benefits to that role. Each gains modules as it advances up the tiers in Highs and Lows, but none gain anything extra in EQ or LW, side arms, or Grenades. Just H/L module count and Fitting Ability with increased CPU/PG. While that may be an argument for why they should start out with the Pro level 4EQ that 4th EQ slot can be seen as a module at the pro level I think. That said, this could be a good addition for the class. The two battle logis, CAL and AMR, should start and end with 3 EQ - and give that CAL a side-arm. The two other Logi's, GAL and MIN, could start with 4. In addition to Tier Equalization, and the general CPM proposal to CCP for the logi adjustments, this could make it a really awesome class. But if the logi did start with 4EQ or 3EQ they may run into the situation that current scouts have when facing fitting a cloak at the starting levels - it just wont work. A beginning player may have the slots, but not the ability to fill them all... or maybe not, it would take some number crunching that I'm not in the mood for right now. But it would make sense. When I do run Amarr Logi I only run ADV - the two EQ slots are not enough to be a logi. And having the two battle logis always stay at 3 while their H/L increased with tier progression to their Assault cousins is sensible. 4EQ for GAL or MIN is a little much for me at the moment. But waiting until the Proto level just for that extra tier is also exasperating. Perhaps lowering the 4EQ to open up at ADV level may be more appropriate. So there will be a reason beyond just H/L module count to move up a tier.... I could go Either way. But I am quite certain that Tiers need Equalized and AMR and CAL need 3EQ starting out. TLDR: This idea has merit and should be placed hand in hand with Logi Tier Equalization. 3EQ STD/MLT level - certainly. 4EQ STD/MLT level - i'm on the fence. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS



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