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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3871
   |
Posted - 2014.11.16 20:07:00 -
[961] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Orion Sanjeet wrote:
TL;DR version
We need to change the end of match leaderboads and actual leaderboards so shallow s.o.b.s can stop tearing down ideas that are good for logis.
P.S. Payouts would also have to be looked at, and can we please change how we earn orbitals?
P.P.S. Changing the leaderboards like this would also improve new player retention because giving praise to a gamer is like giving crack to an addict.
After rereading this I realize that it really doesn't belong in this topic.
this is why I keep suggesting that triage bonuses should be reduced while things like equipment destruction and Intel assist should be increased. also Sentinels should have another way of earning wp since they are not able to use equipment.
I'm actually highly opposed to that, it is already meaningfully more expensive to run a full on logistics fit than the equivalent assault fitting reducing logistics earnings while raising assault earnings would only serve to exacerbate a currently persistent problem.
We can do things such as discount equipment and so forth but the simple fact is that since logi have more mod slots to fill in order to run the role, due to equipment being a mod, they need to be able to have a higher potential rewards curve in order to have and equal risk vs reward baseline. Until the risk vs reward ratio for each role is even it will always be on balance more profitable to run one over the other for an average player context.
All of that aside, balancing around epeen considerations such as what to kdr kittens want to stroke their egos is a very bad practice indeed because someone who is focused on 'status' and FotM chasing wants an advantage they do not wish the game to be balanced (speaking broadly, there are of course exceptions).
I suggest we focus on fixing what is broken and to the best of our ability discount factors which are outside of balance - such as who falls where on the leaderboards.
0.02 ISK
Cross
EDIT: To be clear, I would support an increase to both equipment destruction (no higher than 10pts per however) and to scanner intel (20 + having them give WP for team scans should be sufficiently ample). On the note of scanners, having them give team scans without team scans giving WP is a nerf to scanner potential earnings and I am intent on seeing it changes.
As far as the ability to run a sustainable logi is concerned the current scanning mechanics are a step backwards.
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3871
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 20:22:00 -
[962] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but I am under time constraints. I have only a few things to say as a jack of all trades in the game, and I'm sure it will all be unpopular because I am recommending nerfs to adjust for all of it's benifits.
Repair tools, like everything else in the game has done so far, needs an anti-point farming mechanic built in. We nerfed nano hives and uplinks because they were too easy to just continuously farm points with, despite their usefulness to the team. The repair tool should be no different. I know points cut off if the person you're repairing hasn't done damage within a set amount of time, but the amount of points able to be accrued with a repair tool has been a bit laughable for a long time now (Reference: I-Shayz-I videos). I have no problem with a logi being able to work hard and do poorly k/d wise and still hit the top, I'm merely saying the repair tool allows a logi with a heavy or two to repair all match to be at the top in pretty much every match. All I'm saying is is that they are being a little overcompensated WP-wise for their role repairing. A slight drop to WP/rep cycle should smooth things out nicely, dropping it from 25 to 20 would probably even be enough.
I have to respectfully disagree with you brother. Balancing around the top tier of players such as I-Shayz-I is one of the easiest ways to kill a role. If something is throttled hard enough so that the most successful in it are unable to perform beyond the current average of game play then everyone below them is pushed out.
Conceptual acid test; Take the guys who won each officer weapons challenge and balance the stats on those guns around making the winners only able to hit a break even kdr in a match. See the problem?
The repair tool at present is one of the only pieces of equipment reliably working for support play and even then it still faces rewards scaling problems (i.e. you have higher potential earnings with lower quality gear).
Further a purely proto support if with less combat utility than my STD Assault can still go ISK negative if it dies 3 times in a match where it topped the leaderboard and earned 500K.
Simply put the compensation for other equipment needs to be improved until support actions are at a 'livable' level for an average player who plays only the support role. (This should be true for all roles, and average player should not be forced to play another role just to grind ISK so they can play their main role.)
Re: OBs - Agree that they should be assists for the whole squad not kills for the SL
Re: Guardian awards - "Farming" is improper terminology for doing something that is clearly working as intended. CCP went so far as to put a separate, specific, named award into the game explicitly for the act of repping someone who is getting kills regardless of their armor status, it is a tactical asset and should be rewarded as such.
All of that being said a more active repair tool method would be appealing, buy my character limit is low so see next post 
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5078
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 20:23:00 -
[963] - Quote
Equipment needs a full scale rebalance in terms of isk price and utility, we both know this more than anything.
Things like the flux nanohive/proximity scanner being useless while flux scanner is OP, or the fact that the most useful equipment that runs the least amount of risk of loss (switching to another suit at a supply depot), has the lowest isk price?
Proto Uplinks cost barely anything at all and give out tons of wp passively, while scans only give you points when someone kills someone within an average of 10 seconds of the scan results displayed.
They recently made weapon variants the same price as standard...I'm in favor of SIDGRADES being the same price, things like the focused equipment can be a bit more pricy.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
RISE of LEGION
2175
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 20:26:00 -
[964] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Orion Sanjeet wrote:
TL;DR version
We need to change the end of match leaderboads and actual leaderboards so shallow s.o.b.s can stop tearing down ideas that are good for logis.
P.S. Payouts would also have to be looked at, and can we please change how we earn orbitals?
P.P.S. Changing the leaderboards like this would also improve new player retention because giving praise to a gamer is like giving crack to an addict.
After rereading this I realize that it really doesn't belong in this topic.
this is why I keep suggesting that triage bonuses should be reduced while things like equipment destruction and Intel assist should be increased. also Sentinels should have another way of earning wp since they are not able to use equipment. I'm actually highly opposed to that, it is already meaningfully more expensive to run a full on logistics fit than the equivalent assault fitting reducing logistics earnings while raising assault earnings would only serve to exacerbate a currently persistent problem. We can do things such as discount equipment and so forth but the simple fact is that since logi have more mod slots to fill in order to run the role, due to equipment being a mod, they need to be able to have a higher potential rewards curve in order to have and equal risk vs reward baseline. Until the risk vs reward ratio for each role is even it will always be on balance more profitable to run one over the other for an average player context. All of that aside, balancing around epeen considerations such as what to kdr kittens want to stroke their egos is a very bad practice indeed because someone who is focused on 'status' and FotM chasing wants an advantage they do not wish the game to be balanced (speaking broadly, there are of course exceptions). I suggest we focus on fixing what is broken and to the best of our ability discount factors which are outside of balance - such as who falls where on the leaderboards. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: To be clear, I would support an increase to both equipment destruction (no higher than 10pts per however) and to scanner intel (20 + having them give WP for team scans should be sufficiently ample). On the note of scanners, having them give team scans without team scans giving WP is a nerf to scanner potential earnings and I am intent on seeing it changes. As far as the ability to run a sustainable logi is concerned the current scanning mechanics are a step backwards.
Is it possible to give WP based in item meta level? For instance, I destroy a militia link, that's 5 points. I destroy a Viziam link, that's 10 points.
Conversely, a spawn on a militia link is reduced to 10 points. A spawn on a viziam link gives 30 points. These numbers can be changed, but we can reward logis better for using higher tier equipment, and reward assaults for destroying higher tier equipment. The better stuff you run, the more points you get, and the more payout you receive.
Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3873
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 20:34:00 -
[965] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Equipment needs a full scale rebalance in terms of isk price and utility, we both know this more than anything.
Things like the flux nanohive/proximity scanner being useless while flux scanner is OP, or the fact that the most useful equipment that runs the least amount of risk of loss (switching to another suit at a supply depot), has the lowest isk price?
Proto Uplinks cost barely anything at all and give out tons of wp passively, while scans only give you points when someone kills someone within an average of 10 seconds of the scan results displayed.
They recently made weapon variants the same price as standard...I'm in favor of SIDGRADES being the same price, things like the focused equipment can be a bit more pricy.
All true, also the costs seem to have no clear correlation to the CPU/PG fittings requirements in many cases and that's not even getting into the effects of interracial balance when which gear is optimized comes into play.
My major point however is that the baseline needs to be both established and functional prior to a focus on scaling anything back. The role as a whole is at present under performing and while some aspects may need to be scaled back eventually that should be done after a functioning sustainable baseline for the role is found to ensure that said baseline is maintained.
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Cross Atu wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Orion Sanjeet wrote:
TL;DR version
We need to change the end of match leaderboads and actual leaderboards so shallow s.o.b.s can stop tearing down ideas that are good for logis.
P.S. Payouts would also have to be looked at, and can we please change how we earn orbitals?
P.P.S. Changing the leaderboards like this would also improve new player retention because giving praise to a gamer is like giving crack to an addict.
After rereading this I realize that it really doesn't belong in this topic.
this is why I keep suggesting that triage bonuses should be reduced while things like equipment destruction and Intel assist should be increased. also Sentinels should have another way of earning wp since they are not able to use equipment. I'm actually highly opposed to that, it is already meaningfully more expensive to run a full on logistics fit than the equivalent assault fitting reducing logistics earnings while raising assault earnings would only serve to exacerbate a currently persistent problem. We can do things such as discount equipment and so forth but the simple fact is that since logi have more mod slots to fill in order to run the role, due to equipment being a mod, they need to be able to have a higher potential rewards curve in order to have and equal risk vs reward baseline. Until the risk vs reward ratio for each role is even it will always be on balance more profitable to run one over the other for an average player context. All of that aside, balancing around epeen considerations such as what to kdr kittens want to stroke their egos is a very bad practice indeed because someone who is focused on 'status' and FotM chasing wants an advantage they do not wish the game to be balanced (speaking broadly, there are of course exceptions). I suggest we focus on fixing what is broken and to the best of our ability discount factors which are outside of balance - such as who falls where on the leaderboards. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: To be clear, I would support an increase to both equipment destruction (no higher than 10pts per however) and to scanner intel (20 + having them give WP for team scans should be sufficiently ample). On the note of scanners, having them give team scans without team scans giving WP is a nerf to scanner potential earnings and I am intent on seeing it changes. As far as the ability to run a sustainable logi is concerned the current scanning mechanics are a step backwards. Is it possible to give WP based in item meta level? For instance, I destroy a militia link, that's 5 points. I destroy a Viziam link, that's 10 points. Conversely, a spawn on a militia link is reduced to 10 points. A spawn on a viziam link gives 30 points. These numbers can be changed, but we can reward logis better for using higher tier equipment, and reward assaults for destroying higher tier equipment. The better stuff you run, the more points you get, and the more payout you receive.
Something more dynamic like that is indeed what I would like to see, the question becomes largely one of technical constraint and finding out what can or cannot be done.
That being said I would very much like to hear from the community what ideal solutions would look like so we can get as close to them as is technically feasible.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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RKKR
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
1058
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 21:24:00 -
[966] - Quote
^ What about a system, where you only get (limited) WP after the blueberry that spawned on your uplink does something usefull +á la transportation WP system? I don't really know, just throwing something out here.
Cross (or shy DEV), about the injector stuff above? is it doable?
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
119
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 21:35:00 -
[967] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Things like the flux nanohive/proximity scanner being useless while flux scanner is OP,
Snipped to just the part I wanted to address.
Also, "@Cross" because I think he'd benefit from seeing this;
More-or-less, the way to fix the proxy/flux scanner relationship is quite simple: swap the scan angles. If proxies continue to be underused, then widen the proxy scan angle some more. Flux scanners, however, should be pulled out when you need that pure scan range- like, say, hunting along a ridgeline for a sniper.
As for the flux nanohive... I cannot conceive of any potential use for it, so I would argue that it would be simpler to simply remove it. At present it seems to only be useful if you want to spam hives, and so removing them makes it harder to spam hives (especially when combined with the nano changes in the 3rd iteration proposal), and also removes useless content.
After all, I'm sure that it can be agreed that useless content is not content, it's a waste of space.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3878
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 22:46:00 -
[968] - Quote
Repair Revolution
This will serve as a partial preview of the upcoming iteration on our logistics rework proposal, please provide feedback accordingly. (Also please pardon the very truncated presentation, I am typing this up when I should be getting ready for work  so I have to keep it quite short)
1. Add an Infantry Shield Transporter (rep tool for shields)
2. Make repair actions more active. <-- Key feature, more below
3. Remove the cap from repair earnings (note this would not remove the 'in combat' requirements)
4. Logistics skill update - - Race or role wide bonuses to one/both 'rep tools' active pool (active what now? More below)
Explanation
Give repair tools the 'active pool' mechanic used by things like the cloaking device. In effect make them run off of their own "stamina pool". The repair tool would now provide scaled rep rewards correlated to the meta and type of tool used.
A cap is no longer needed because the active pool depletes and refreshes dynamically preventing earnings beyond a maximum use case set by CCP for that tool. Guardian point mechanics remain the same, however with a new opportunity cost because of the 'pool' method now present on the repair tool, this rewards tactical play and user choice directly.
Further WP would now be earned in much smaller portions on a WP/s basis. This when combined with earnings scaled to the tool in question eliminates the current reward disparity between high and low meta gear.
These mechanics would apply to both shield and armor 'repair tools'. Further the active pool mechanic applies to each instance of equipment separately such that players who wish to have constant access to repair output can choose to equip more than one repair tool thus giving them a larger repair pool to employ at the cost of a higher 'buy in' via equipment slots and fittings costs.
Point number 4 from above is a consideration being given to the logistics role as a support class within this system, providing some form of per level bonus to the rep pool (i.e. duration) for either armor, shields or a combination there of (depending on racial persuasion). This final element ensures that the newly revamped and active support tool will still be usable by other classes but always more effective when employed by a logistics frame.
-= Other context =-
Uplinks / Hives - Consider spam and some of the earnings potential on these nerfed, more details coming later as things develop but for now please provide feedback to the above idea with this in mind.
Active Scanner - Presume that Team Scans give WP and that the scanner line has been split into two general groups, more effective squad only scanners and less effective team wide scanners. More details forthcoming after the eWar rework that CCP is currently taking feedback on.
In closing I'm interested in impressions and ideas. Sorry for the rough nature of the presentation, I'm just crunched for time at the moment.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3878
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 22:48:00 -
[969] - Quote
RKKR wrote:^ What about a system, where you only get (limited) WP after the blueberry that spawned on your uplink does something usefull +á la transportation WP system? I don't really know, just throwing something out here.
Cross (or shy DEV), about the injector stuff above? is it doable?
Injector stuff my be doable in a future iteration but would at minimum require another client patch to alter it in that manner.
While I support the notion of it in the game play sense I am doubtful that it will be within our reach as a change within the near future.
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Jack 3enimble
Vengeance Unbound
RISE of LEGION
479
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 22:50:00 -
[970] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Repair Revolution This will serve as a partial preview of the upcoming iteration on our logistics rework proposal, please provide feedback accordingly. (Also please pardon the very truncated presentation, I am typing this up when I should be getting ready for work so I have to keep it quite short) 1. Add an Infantry Shield Transporter (rep tool for shields) 2. Make repair actions more active. <-- Key feature, more below 3. Remove the cap from repair earnings (note this would not remove the 'in combat' requirements) 4. Logistics skill update - - Race or role wide bonuses to one/both 'rep tools' active pool (active what now? More below) ExplanationGive repair tools the 'active pool' mechanic used by things like the cloaking device. In effect make them run off of their own "stamina pool". The repair tool would now provide scaled rep rewards correlated to the meta and type of tool used. A cap is no longer needed because the active pool depletes and refreshes dynamically preventing earnings beyond a maximum use case set by CCP for that tool. Guardian point mechanics remain the same, however with a new opportunity cost because of the 'pool' method now present on the repair tool, this rewards tactical play and user choice directly. Further WP would now be earned in much smaller portions on a WP/s basis. This when combined with earnings scaled to the tool in question eliminates the current reward disparity between high and low meta gear. These mechanics would apply to both shield and armor 'repair tools'. Further the active pool mechanic applies to each instance of equipment separately such that players who wish to have constant access to repair output can choose to equip more than one repair tool thus giving them a larger repair pool to employ at the cost of a higher 'buy in' via equipment slots and fittings costs. Point number 4 from above is a consideration being given to the logistics role as a support class within this system, providing some form of per level bonus to the rep pool (i.e. duration) for either armor, shields or a combination there of (depending on racial persuasion). This final element ensures that the newly revamped and active support tool will still be usable by other classes but always more effective when employed by a logistics frame. -= Other context =-Uplinks / Hives - Consider spam and some of the earnings potential on these nerfed, more details coming later as things develop but for now please provide feedback to the above idea with this in mind. Active Scanner - Presume that Team Scans give WP and that the scanner line has been split into two general groups, more effective squad only scanners and less effective team wide scanners. More details forthcoming after the eWar rework that CCP is currently taking feedback on. In closing I'm interested in impressions and ideas. Sorry for the rough nature of the presentation, I'm just crunched for time at the moment. Cheers, Cross
So on the hives if the spam is nerfed does it mean the wp will increase for resupplies? If you look at the isk price for the hives the 10 wp for a resupply is garbage imho. That's why they're rarely on the field.
edit:
I like your involvement man, keep up the good work.
Any word on a possible increased movement speed for the logi's? |
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3878
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 22:54:00 -
[971] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:As is usual, I agree with a lot of what RedBleach said, in particular I've always liked the Logi as "light medium" instead of the "heavy medium", though there is a good case to be made the other way. But if you do that, like he said, you better be putting a pretty sizable HP buff on the table.
One place I do disagree though, is in the CPU/PG buff. Personally, while there are obvious issues with the Caldari CPU, and the Amarr logi PG has literally always been broken since it's creation... it was, what, some laughable amount like 20 PG at STD when it first existed?
But, I don't think that a fitting resource buff to the level of the assault is the answer. I would favor a more modest buff and then a 50-100% increase to the fitting bonus instead, to make it relatively easy to fit proto equipment but not proto weapons. This is just a sort of pre-emptive thing to stop the slayerlogi derpiness that is 100% guaranteed to follow any buff to logis.
By doing it with an EQ bonus you can very easily make the claim that the offensive capabilities of the suit will be at most only modestly better but the "intended" capability, as a support platform, is brought in line with the other frames. I completely agree. I suppose I have not taken the time to run numbers and fits to find the perfect PG/CPU combinations. I am with you that the key is to get proto gear and proto modules equipped and then have little left over so the sacrifices are between weapon level, grenade level (if at all), and side arm where applicable. If the bonus works and it allows me to maintain current fittings I am ready to move with it. But I need to take some time to wrap my head around why the Lower PG/CPU would work out. I don't want there to be a rush of slayer logi's but I do know that there are various types of Logistics characters. I typically fall on the Logibro side of things but a bomber fit must be just as viable, a logi that can kill/defend should be possible. I believe it boils down to the ease at which one can accomplish such a fitting. If it is easy for common newbs to jump into a logi and slay it up then there is a problem. But a creative individual that can tailor their playstyle and fitting to have a fit that can sadface the opponent is ok. But saying anything light that brings the logi hate for logistics killing anything - we all know this. Can you tell me Your PG/CPU suggestions and Why? I would just like to see something as an example about why the values are too much. Maybe what I ask is not available. I can get on board, I just need the logic.
Very simple quick comment - and by all means continue with more input - before I run.
The proposed changes as linked in the spreadsheet cannot be taken piecemeal or they are broken.
The alteration to suit stats without the changes to role bonus are key here without one the other is not properly applying.
With both in place logi frames being used without equipment have fewer resources than current, while logi frames being used with a full set of equipment will have more net resources to use. This combined effect allows for more freedom to buff the overall logi frame and role while still precluding any theoretical risk of use as a slayer suit.
So, please carry on with the feedback, but bear in mind that with regards to the proposal if you are not considering the entire proposal then the suggestions will be distorted/broken. They are meant to be taken together, or not at all.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
RISE of LEGION
2178
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 23:51:00 -
[972] - Quote
I want to make a comment on "logi slayers"
The reason we had killer bees to begin with wasn't that the logo suits were OP. It was because the assault and scout suits were all crap. Remember Gallente Assault with a shield recharge bonus? None of the assault bonuses were geared toward slaying. They were just kind of there. In the same instance, they had crap PG/CPUand a completely nonsensical slot layout (Amarr were supposed to dual tank. Remember that?) We will never have logo slayers again, because assault suits now have actual bonuses to killing instead of random stats.
Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
120
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 03:48:00 -
[973] - Quote
That's a very good point, and reminded me of a short conversation I had with a squad I was running with in Caldari FW... which was a painful experience (the FW part, that is).
One squad member offered the opinion that he saw no reason to take sidearms away from logis- assaults (are intended to, at least) have awesome weapon bonuses, and more tank, while logis boast multiple equipment slots. He also was of the opinion that all logis should have four equipment slots.
He presented an interesting viewpoint, IMO, in that he believed that the tradeoffs between assault and logi should effectively come down to base health and suit bonuses- assaults getting weapon bonuses and logis getting equipment bonuses, with assaults also having a base HP advantage.
Also, Scanner Comments: I personally think that we should implement two different intel kill assist bonuses; the current +15 (or perhaps even buffed to a +20 or +25) for squadmates, and then +5 or +10 WPs for teammates. In practice, this would look like this:
+15 (or +20/+25) WP Squad Intel Kill Assist
+5 (or +10) WP Team Intel Kill Assist
I think this offers a cleaner solution any issues with active scanners at present. IIRC, all scout suits are at 35 dB native profile, so an increased prevalence of scanners really shouldn't bother them, as the vast majority of the playerbase is likely to not be interested in making the ISK investment of taking their 36 dB precision ADV active scanner and upgrading to the 28 dB precision PRO version.
I'd also like to see resupplies be retooled so that WPs are either rewards on a per-"pulse" basis, that is that for each "pulse" of ammo that a hive gives, you get WPs (likely only +5 WPs per pulse), or if the current "per-person" mechanic is retained then I would recommend doubling the bonus to +20 WPs.
The disparity comes from the fact that with the former retooling of the resupply-reward mechanics each time you get an ammo pulse, the person who deployed the hive gets WP- for example, say I lay a K-2 nanohive down for Cross, who has a Scrambler Rifle with no SP invested in ammo capacity. He's completely dry of ammo, so has to go from 0 to 225 rounds.
Each pulse of a K2 nano will deliver 22 or 23 rounds, depending on how CCP does their math. We'll just say it takes ten pulses to restore Cross's ammo entirely. If WPs are given for each pulse, at +5 WPs per pulse, then I now have 50 WPs worth of "Team Resupply" bonuses. If, on the other hand, the current mechanic is retained, then I would guess that I would probably have around 20 WPs- at the most- from resupplying Cross.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
General Tso's Alliance
685
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 05:30:00 -
[974] - Quote
OK, Opinions based on new Info
WarPoints
IFF tiered WP is available. If not I like the middle value.
Hives - they are already weak as is the hive itself. But if we are comparing equipment based on tactical use and earning potential the hive have very limited earning potential, and are commonly not considered a tactical necessity, even if their use can turn the tide of an oncoming onslaught. I suppose the question should be asked from a statistical point of view: "Does the average player run out of ammo before death and could/do nano-hives tip the balance to save them from death?
If statistics can prove they are devalued then their earnings should be increased. Either in Raw WP increase or potential increase in increased nanite count. Perhaps from a 10 - 15 - 20WP. That could be per tier as well.... actually I like that a little bit more.
Drop Uplinks - Tactical value. High, but also can be very spammy. The new equipment adjustments will be great if that comes with a bandwidth for deployed EQ. Earnings could be based on tier as well: 15 - 20 - 25WP
Active Scanner or Passive scanner bonus: Better idea is right before my post. And longer bonus time possibility not a 10 second but maybe a 15 - 18 second perhaps. Just thinking of how long distance to target and subsequent skirmish lasts.
RePTool - Contingent upon WP per HP amount repped. Basing it around top player earnings is not a swell idea. Averages are something that CCP would have. But dropping it to 20 or 15 is manageable. But those changes with a repair reservoir... that will be tricky. and is that 15 or 20 per 40hp or 25hp? - I like it in quarter increments of 100, but I'm open.
RESERVOIR IDEA
The reservoir will be tricky to balance and should increase per tier. Should the skill 'repair tool' also increase that reservoir? and the limit?
Will it be a time limit of 30 - 45 - 60 - 120 seconds? Recharge rate?
Or will it be a reservoir of available HP to heal?
I definitely believe it should be a reservoir of 'time active' and not HP and the skill should unlock the different tiers and work like the Amarr logi heat build up negation or build up the reservoir - essentially the same right now.
I can like the idea. It would stop the simple following all match of heavy, BUT i dont like this mechanic UNLESS one can maintain the lock without draining the reservoir. This may work like just keeping a lock on a character or only having the reservoir deplete as reps/nanites are used. But I doubt that this is what you had in mind. LOCKING on is a little easier but can still be a pain in 1.9. And being forced to loose that lock in the middle of an engaged firefight or movement to a battle and then being unable to reengage because of other players moving through the field of view would be more frustrating than it is already. - And a feature like this should not make things more frustrating.... So why are doing this again?
Is this just a CCP conditional thing or just a general idea that is floating out there? Because right now never needing to disengage is nice, but right now that also comes in handy. I don't like logi's that don't do anything else but I don't often see a logi that just does that. Even if there is a chubby chaser couple that is usually a highly communicative group - it is really hard to keep a Heavy alive without voice chat and an experience heavy.
This adjustment would make communication Key. THEREFORE there MUST, MUST, MUST be an easily visible signal that a subject is being repped. The Yellow Screen pulse was a bit much, but can we just tone it down? Because the predominant amount of games played will be solos without voice and this is just making the support role much more difficult.
BRING the yellow screen pulse. A signal for when the stream may be ending would be good to for a field communications. Three Pulse SOS visual and sound will help the healee and the reppee communicate. It must be a requirement for this kind of change to the system - surely you can see that.
So, Idea is contingent on Lock on mechanism and Visual/Audio Communication of repping.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Trust CROSS
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4560
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 05:31:00 -
[975] - Quote
The rep,tool changes are interesting. If we really can get a shield transporter then obviously I'd rework my bonus proposal, certainly regarding the Caldari, one could legitimately see giving them a shield rep bonus, Amarr/Gallente obviously an ar RL repo bonus, and potential,y both to the minmatar. Some interesting minmatar builds could come from that...
As for deployable equipment, I really think the best solution is the bandwidth one, if that's not possible then some kind of limit that majorly favors cal/Amarr logis would be the next best move.
Finally, scanners - eaving the actual nuts and bolts of db and duration/radius aside for now, but yes they do need work - and speaking strictly in terms of its rewards, I think the +15 for squad kill assists is probably still sufficient, provided you added 5-10 points for a team kill assist.
My reasoning is that with all the ewar domination of the battlefield, it's a useful/necessary enough pierce of equipment that modest rewards are good enough to encourage use... At least in the current state of ewar, which is apparently changing.
I'll try to get around to sharing some numbers and maybe some things in protofits regarding my proposal on modest resource buff and big fitting bonus buff, but victor had it pretty much right (it was me he was thinking of - there's something along those lines I posted in this thread somewhere). While its totally correct as mentioned a few posts up, the environment that created slayer logi's is long since gone, but there's a very irrational bias still lingering about it that unfortunately cannot be ignored lest there be backlash against any Logi buff.
EDIT: just saw redbleac's post above. That's a real,y good point about lock on without depletion of the reservoir I hadn't thought of. That definitely should be addressed, and God yes, please give us back some kind of rep indicator. We toned down the red hit indicator flash, don't see why we can't do the same for reps, though in a perfect world with frequent real patches, a there are better ways to do it, like a pulse on your HUD.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
General Tso's Alliance
685
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Posted - 2014.11.17 06:44:00 -
[976] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:As is usual, I agree with a lot of what RedBleach said, in particular I've always liked the Logi as "light medium" instead of the "heavy medium", though there is a good case to be made the other way. But if you do that, like he said, you better be putting a pretty sizable HP buff on the table.
...
By doing it with an EQ bonus you can very easily make the claim that the offensive capabilities of the suit will be at most only modestly better but the "intended" capability, as a support platform, is brought in line with the other frames. ... If the bonus works and it allows me to maintain current fittings I am ready to move with it. But I need to take some time to wrap my head around why the Lower PG/CPU would work out. ... Can you tell me Your PG/CPU suggestions and Why? I would just like to see something as an example about why the values are too much. Maybe what I ask is not available. I can get on board, I just need the logic. ... The proposed changes as linked in the spreadsheet cannot be taken piecemeal or they are broken. The alteration to suit stats without the changes to role bonus are key here without one the other is not properly applying. With both in place logi frames being used without equipment have fewer resources than current, while logi frames being used with a full set of equipment will have more net resources to use. This combined effect allows for more freedom to buff the overall logi frame and role while still precluding any theoretical risk of use as a slayer suit. So, please carry on with the feedback, but bear in mind that with regards to the proposal if you are not considering the entire proposal then the suggestions will be distorted/broken. They are meant to be taken together, or not at all. Cheers, Cross
Thank you for the answer about taken as a whole or taken piece by piece. To that end I would throw my support in for the changes on principle. But not in their current state.
The Equipment rework - even without the price changes - is sensible and couples well with the logistics bonus.
But rereading that may have been tabled.... sorry. And it looked like removing the hidden skill bonuses were out as well...
The Reduced CPU/PG - I still cant buy in. I get that we may have more fitting power but is it still enough to make great fittings? I have some pretty rockin setups that still hunger for more PG and CPU and that is still with just proto and ADV Modules and a basic Grenade or none at all. I am Hesitant to say the least without an increase in CAL CPU and Amarr PG.
The current setup of removing the hidden bonuses and kinda adding that bonus to my fit does not help my fitting in my maths. (25% logi bonus of 10pg) + (25% skill bonus of 10pg) = 5 and (50% Logi bonus of 10pg) + (0% of skill bonus) = 5. Without the cost increase for other suits I don't see the benefit and that means that lowering my CPU and PG is dog logic, and they are not very good mathematicians. I am still left with less. My equipment still takes up the same amount.
The Logistics bonus would have to be in the neighborhood of 75% net total to get my fittings anything close to what they are now.... and that is still untenable for most of the solid fits. Throttle PG/CPU but make it count with the bonus. I can math it if needed. But I'll trust you Cross.
SO STATS
IF we do this (PG/CPU nerf) Make it worth while. I feel that we are week in that stats proposal. We are taking a cut. Hard and true fact. - and the logi suit still sucks right now. The throttled stat increases in other areas do not make this a stronger suit or even a better logi.
Let me Pick for the Team. A logi either follows a set group or is darting all over the field. Our operations DEMAND that we soak up some damage for revives and repping and then recover. We cannot stay in a fire fight but should be able to fight back, run away, duck behind cover, and fire off some pot shots at enemies.
HP Buff - 100 shy of Assault with less fitting power? That seems reasonable. But to get other buffs i could leave this.
Shield Regen... Buff it. We are geeky like that. Less HP but we make it count. We can take a few hits and recover it quicker, but we are still more squishy. This Is Required for our role. Our revives need it and our repping jobs need it. In between a Scout and Assault. Because it is dumb to follow someone into battle and not be able to recover from a few stray shots fast enough to keep helping your subject.
A Logi must have a high strafe/move speed. Above an assaults. and below a scouts. We follow a group of variable speeds and being the slowest or second to slowest gimps the team and the role. We float around the field where needed, that is part of the role, in less protection than everyone but scouts.
Sprinting should be Higher or Equal to an assaults base stat. We sprint in bursts. From teammate to teammate and back again. A high sprint coupled with a high sprint regen works. - for everything else, green bottle.
Stamina Pool should be lower than an assaults. This is how we pay for part of the regens (nerfing PG/CPU to please those fearful of being killed by a logi pays for the rest). Lower pool but higher regen means we can't maintain top speeds long, but we are more effective running short ranges than huffing it through a building and up the stair or across the plains. We have alot of crap we are carrying that takes most of our effort. We are sprinters not marathoners.
Don't settle. Stats are weak for our role.
My thoughts.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Trust CROSS
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5084
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Posted - 2014.11.17 07:06:00 -
[977] - Quote
I really don't want a shield rep tool in this game.
It would be the most OP thing ever, and no one realizes why.
Once you get them down to armor you might be able to take out 100 armor but then they rep shield HP back again. While you are busy taking out the constantly repping shields, the player's armor is slowly regenerating in the background. With armor repair tools you kill the guy if his HP drops to 0, but shield suits stay alive and can be repped after shields drop to 0.
Even if you make it so that all it does is activate the player's personal recharge and doesn't actually add anything more to it, the only way to kill shield suits being repped would be to use a ton of alpha damage. When it comes to heavies, Armor Sentinels with HMGs wouldnt be able to do anything to repped shield suits (unless they take out the logi of course)
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
General Tso's Alliance
685
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 07:07:00 -
[978] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:The rep,tool changes are interesting. If we really can get a shield transporter then obviously I'd rework my bonus proposal, certainly regarding the Caldari, one could legitimately see giving them a shield rep bonus, Amarr/Gallente obviously an armor rep bonus, and potentially both to the minmatar. Some interesting minmatar builds could come from that...
As for deployable equipment, I really think the best solution is the bandwidth one, if that's not possible then some kind of limit that majorly favors cal/Amarr logis would be the next best move. My only issue with the various proposals to give more WP or whatever for proto is the potential negative impact on new players,
Finally, scanners - eaving the actual nuts and bolts of db and duration/radius aside for now, but yes they do need work - and speaking strictly in terms of its rewards, I think the +15 for squad kill assists is probably still sufficient, provided you added 5-10 points for a team kill assist.
My reasoning is that with all the ewar domination of the battlefield, it's a useful/necessary enough pierce of equipment that modest rewards are good enough to encourage use... At least in the current state of ewar, which is apparently changing.
I'll try to get around to sharing some numbers and maybe some things in protofits regarding my proposal on modest resource buff and big fitting bonus buff, but victor had it pretty much right (it was me he was thinking of - there's something along those lines I posted in this thread somewhere). While its totally correct as mentioned a few posts up, the environment that created slayer logi's is long since gone, but there's a very irrational bias still lingering about it that unfortunately cannot be ignored lest there be backlash against any Logi buff.
EDIT: just saw redbleach's post above. That's a really good point about lock on without depletion of the reservoir I hadn't thought of. That definitely should be addressed, and God yes, please give us back some kind of rep indicator. We toned down the red hit indicator flash, don't see why we can't do the same for reps, though in a perfect world with frequent real patches, a there are better ways to do it, like a pulse on your HUD.
I can understand the sentiment of it being harder for newberries to break through. But then where is the drive for better equipment beyond the repper that will be based on HP repped?
I like it only because there is a value system associated with bringing better gear to the field. Supposedly bringing better fire arms or using better modules increases Potential WP. Killing, hacking, etc. more and faster. But our current system gives the same reward for using equipment that gives the same reward despite its benefit to the receiving party. More Ammo or faster spawns are useful. If we do not pay for that use then it rarely happens.
I will remind the group of the time when we received nothing for repping. Rep tools went away in a big way unless you were a dedicated logi. Points/money/recognition are what basically drives most actions in this game. Psychology influences these things in a big way. You want X, offer Y and not Z. We want players to all use better gear and new logis too, driving them to this class. The class with a great WP potential with gear.
Overall the Risk vs Reward is key. If a player knows that they can get potentially more points from an item, and it is better for the team (assuming higher tiers often do (protostomping is a good example)) then leading Newberries to water with more points is a great way of indirect communication to push onward into skilling higher gear. Regardless of whether they throw down the nanohive or uplink they still know that they could. And knowing that you can is almost as satisfying.... almost but not enough as we all know. So we struggle and strive until we are successful. And that keeps them using better gear, which keeps the isk train going, which keeps people playing the game... ok maybe not in that order. It is a good move for CCP I think.
Right now the only gear, worth it point wise, is weapons, suits and modules, and the rep tool because we can easily see the WP earning potential activated by the effects on KDR. So, people go for the FoTM or suits they know can dish out damage. We want people to use better gear that is better for the team we need to offer a dumb proof signal on what it better. More WP for higher tiered Gear is an easy signal. Coding might not be, but the points certainly get the message across.
just an idea.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Trust CROSS
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Juedfin90
BLACK-GUARD
E.B.O.L.A.
6
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Posted - 2014.11.17 10:12:00 -
[979] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:I really don't want a shield rep tool in this game.
It would be the most OP thing ever, and no one realizes why.
Once you get them down to armor you might be able to take out 100 armor but then they rep shield HP back again. While you are busy taking out the constantly repping shields, the player's armor is slowly regenerating in the background. With armor repair tools you kill the guy if his HP drops to 0, but shield suits stay alive and can be repped after shields drop to 0.
Even if you make it so that all it does is activate the player's personal recharge and doesn't actually add anything more to it, the only way to kill shield suits being repped would be to use a ton of alpha damage. When it comes to heavies, Armor Sentinels with HMGs wouldnt be able to do anything to repped shield suits (unless they take out the logi of course)
I agree with you that we need mechanics that regular this case.
But first of all, are you a logi? If I take the core repper with my pro mini logi and play together with my boddy that is full pro amarr, he never dies if someone protects my back....i rep him since the last year, doing most of the time nothing else...
He just dies if I die....so the difference isnt that big. But i agree it could be a small problem, but easy to handy...
solution:
Add a delay, so if someone is down with his shield (even being shield repped) add a delay . So the Heavy has to cover or die....
Next question is how long this delay has to be? I think when we take the Cal sentinel for example, his left armor would be about 450 HP. So you just need 1-2 seconds to kill him. This time should be the time of the Delay.
----> with that solution it would not make a difference of shield or armour rep. Because both would die if they are completly down with their main HP
" If you aren´t strong, be smart " citation from Sun Zu´s Book Tactics of War
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5066
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 10:47:00 -
[980] - Quote
Just make shield transporters and armor rep exclusive.
Cannot lock a target that is being repped or having shields repped.
Since native regen is powerful all shield transporters should do is keep regen going and add +15/+20/+25 shields regenerated.
Putting them at the same rep numbers as armor reps ould be horrendously broken.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
RISE of LEGION
2180
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Posted - 2014.11.17 12:30:00 -
[981] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Just make shield transporters and armor rep exclusive.
Cannot lock a target that is being repped or having shields repped.
Since native regen is powerful all shield transporters should do is keep regen going and add +15/+20/+25 shields regenerated.
Putting them at the same rep numbers as armor reps ould be horrendously broken.
Considering that armor rep tools would be in the region of 150 hp/s, armor has more health, and the shield damaging weapons are some of the highest DPS in the game, how is shield reps matching armor reps broken?
Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5071
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Posted - 2014.11.17 12:42:00 -
[982] - Quote
Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool.
Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP.
Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar.
This benefits no one.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5086
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Posted - 2014.11.17 14:21:00 -
[983] - Quote
Juedfin90 wrote:
But first of all, are you a logi?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I've been a logi since I first stated regularly playing this game, way back in the closed beta.
Introducing a shield rep tool just makes things more complicated than they need to be.
Did you know that vehicles once had shield transporters? The reason why they were actually somewhat balance was that you could only have them active for a certain amount of time, and then there was a 30 second delay which you had to let the module recharge before being able to use it again.
Adding delays? Preventing locks by different types of repair tools? Giving repair tools a cooldown or energy "pool" like cloaks and scanners have?
Honestly we need to stop trying to suggest so many ideas at once and actually focus on one thing at a time here.
Nothing against you Cross, but this thread feels more like an idea farm than a productive way to gather feedback. You should convince rattati to create a sticky for a specific change we want feedback about.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4562
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 14:48:00 -
[984] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Juedfin90 wrote:
But first of all, are you a logi?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I've been a logi since I first stated regularly playing this game, way back in the closed beta. Introducing a shield rep tool just makes things more complicated than they need to be. Did you know that vehicles once had shield transporters? The reason why they were actually somewhat balance was that you could only have them active for a certain amount of time, and then there was a 30 second delay which you had to let the module recharge before being able to use it again. Adding delays? Preventing locks by different types of repair tools? Giving repair tools a cooldown or energy "pool" like cloaks and scanners have? Honestly we need to stop trying to suggest so many ideas at once and actually focus on one thing at a time here. Nothing against you Cross, but this thread feels more like an idea farm than a productive way to gather feedback. You should convince rattati to create a sticky for a specific change we want feedback about.
I got a kick out of that question myself. You're losing your street cred with the kids somehow Shayz, isn't that the second or even third person in this thread to question you? 
Gotta start promoting yourself more, maybe get a hype man or something!
TBH, I think Cross does intend this thread more as an idea farm, from which he can draw things to propose to CCP, and then later on we get the manna from heaven of a Rattati thread outlining a buff to our class. (The problem with these threads is separating out the chaff, of course)
As for the shield tool, this is just a guess on my part, but considering he is calling it an "infantry shield transporter" the logical conclusion is that it would work the same as the vehicular equivalent. I realize that he likened it to a rep tool, but that would be the easiest way to explain it to people who are unfamiliar with them.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5087
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Posted - 2014.11.17 14:51:00 -
[985] - Quote
Actually I have to aplologize. I just read the changes proposed in that spreadsheet on the first page and pretty much agree with everything there.
Only two things I have issues with:
1. Leave the changes to logistics racial bonuses alone for now aside from the 50% reduction to equipment and the overal increase in equipment cost.
2. No proposed changes to rebalancing equipment (aside from the deployable changes), yet we're still discussing adding a shield transporter.
I'm going to spend the day updating my equipment spreadsheet and will propose some numbers for the variants along with isk prices.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
General Tso's Alliance
687
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 16:12:00 -
[986] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Juedfin90 wrote:
But first of all, are you a logi?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I've been a logi since I first stated regularly playing this game, way back in the closed beta. Introducing a shield rep tool just makes things more complicated than they need to be. Did you know that vehicles once had shield transporters? The reason why they were actually somewhat balance was that you could only have them active for a certain amount of time, and then there was a 30 second delay which you had to let the module recharge before being able to use it again. Adding delays? Preventing locks by different types of repair tools? Giving repair tools a cooldown or energy "pool" like cloaks and scanners have? Honestly we need to stop trying to suggest so many ideas at once and actually focus on one thing at a time here. Nothing against you Cross, but this thread feels more like an idea farm than a productive way to gather feedback. You should convince rattati to create a sticky for a specific change we want feedback about. I got a kick out of that question myself. You're losing your street cred with the kids somehow Shayz, isn't that the second or even third person in this thread to question you? Gotta start promoting yourself more, maybe get a hype man or something! TBH, I think Cross does intend this thread more as an idea farm, from which he can draw things to propose to CCP, and then later on we get the manna from heaven of a Rattati thread outlining a buff to our class. (The problem with these threads is separating out the chaff, of course) As for the shield tool, this is just a guess on my part, but considering he is calling it an "infantry shield transporter" the logical conclusion is that it would work the same as the vehicular equivalent. I realize that he likened it to a rep tool, but that would be the easiest way to explain it to people who are unfamiliar with them.
That made me laugh too :)
The shield transporter, does it need to a limiter then? Or a cool down period? What if it was an AOE type of tool? Much like a hive but not deployable? I'm kinda thinking of the vehicle scan animation centered on the user. Could be OP as hell or it could just offer a temp buff lowering recharge time and increasing shield recharge.... no nevermind. Don't need that kind of "active module" idea now... but I wouldn't even know where to begin with balancing a shield repping tool.
Unless it repairs shield even when a subject is into armor. The damage check first hits the shield amount and then carries over to armor. And when a Shield Transporter is active every second shields are restored, regardless of armor or shield recharge/depleted stats of the player receiving the repps. Meaning that the Shield transporter doesn't mess with their stat values at all but just adds shield like our current armor repper despite the reppee's armor repair value. So, even if the damage received just a second ago depleted shields and went halfway into armor this current second the shields are repped a certain amount. ........... So just like a repair tool then........ Sorry to waste your time.
I mention this only because I have read other posts that talk about the shield transporter altering or being affected by the receiving party's stats.
I'm done, going to work.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Trust CROSS
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1303
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Posted - 2014.11.17 16:44:00 -
[987] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Repair Revolution This will serve as a partial preview of the upcoming iteration on our logistics rework proposal, please provide feedback accordingly. (Also please pardon the very truncated presentation, I am typing this up when I should be getting ready for work so I have to keep it quite short) 1. Add an Infantry Shield Transporter (rep tool for shields) 2. Make repair actions more active. <-- Key feature, more below 3. Remove the cap from repair earnings (note this would not remove the 'in combat' requirements) 4. Logistics skill update - - Race or role wide bonuses to one/both 'rep tools' active pool (active what now? More below) ExplanationGive repair tools the 'active pool' mechanic used by things like the cloaking device. In effect make them run off of their own "stamina pool". The repair tool would now provide scaled rep rewards correlated to the meta and type of tool used. A cap is no longer needed because the active pool depletes and refreshes dynamically preventing earnings beyond a maximum use case set by CCP for that tool. Guardian point mechanics remain the same, however with a new opportunity cost because of the 'pool' method now present on the repair tool, this rewards tactical play and user choice directly. Further WP would now be earned in much smaller portions on a WP/s basis. This when combined with earnings scaled to the tool in question eliminates the current reward disparity between high and low meta gear. These mechanics would apply to both shield and armor 'repair tools'. Further the active pool mechanic applies to each instance of equipment separately such that players who wish to have constant access to repair output can choose to equip more than one repair tool thus giving them a larger repair pool to employ at the cost of a higher 'buy in' via equipment slots and fittings costs. Point number 4 from above is a consideration being given to the logistics role as a support class within this system, providing some form of per level bonus to the rep pool (i.e. duration) for either armor, shields or a combination there of (depending on racial persuasion). This final element ensures that the newly revamped and active support tool will still be usable by other classes but always more effective when employed by a logistics frame. -= Other context =-Uplinks / Hives - Consider spam and some of the earnings potential on these nerfed, more details coming later as things develop but for now please provide feedback to the above idea with this in mind. Active Scanner - Presume that Team Scans give WP and that the scanner line has been split into two general groups, more effective squad only scanners and less effective team wide scanners. More details forthcoming after the eWar rework that CCP is currently taking feedback on. In closing I'm interested in impressions and ideas. Sorry for the rough nature of the presentation, I'm just crunched for time at the moment. Cheers, Cross
As long as all logistics get some form of 'time extension'.
Via,longer operation times,shorter cooldowns,etc.
With their racial tool this wouldn't be a bad change.
It's other suits using rep tools the same length and effect that has me concerned.
Readjusting (additional) bonuses would be something like this:
-Class equipment fitting reduction
-Class rep tool/transporter operation time increase/cooldown reduction
-Amarr-3rd highest rep amount,highest armor rep range (30m on the six kin)
-Gal-highest armor rep amount,shortest armor rep range
-Cal-highest shield rep amount,highest shield rep range
-Min-2nd highest armor rep,2nd highest shield rep,medium range on both.
I would like hybrid tools,shield and armor rep,to match the Min bonuses.
So,armor rep Gal and Amarr-armor only,high rep amount (88,before bonuses)
Shield rep Cal-shield only,high rep amount (30 (up for debate),before bonuses)
Hybrid (dual tank) Min-shield and armor,medium to both (15 shield ,44 armor,before bonuses)
Min would be the most utility based,able to help and armor,but would lose in a 'rep fight' vs specialist tools.
Thoughts?
P.S.Adding a shield tool wouldn't be hard,just change the beam color on regular rep tools from yellow to blue,presto more content.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4563
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Posted - 2014.11.17 16:46:00 -
[988] - Quote
I honestly never had any direct experience with the vehicle shield transporter but since there's no equivalent to shield boosters I always envisioned the infantry version to either be a scaled-down remote shield booster, or basically get rid of recharge delays and such, repping shields whether you were taking damage or not... basically it makes your shield regen act like armor reps, constantly "on". Either way, fundamentally different from the current rep tool.
Again, without firsthand knowledge of my own, to balance it I suppose you would mostly just work on two things:
1) How long it lasts for
2) How much it boosts the suits' inherent recharge rate... this one might be a programming issue as far as what they could or could not make it do. The remote shield booster is probably easier technically since the code already exists.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8494
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Posted - 2014.11.17 17:15:00 -
[989] - Quote
I think a shield repair tool should kick start your regen. How much it repairs per second is up to your suit.
Although, that may cause some problems, but I think the initial concept is interesting.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
RISE of LEGION
2186
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:53:00 -
[990] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Because you get proportionally more benefit by having the same amount of rep on a tinier HP pool.
Self regen is supposed to be the strength of shield fits over HP.
Providing a greater benefit to a smaller HP Pool will simply change the most favored fit from amarr/gallente sentinel to caldari and minmatar.
This benefits no one.
Only true if you use the rep tool to repair people AFTER a fight. If you repair DURING a fight, a larger health pool is better. This is why AmSentinels stack plates instead of reps. The more health you have to repair, the longer that health pool lasts before the DPS overwhelms your reps and the sentinel dies. An armor rep at 150 hp/s on a 1344 health pool and a shield rep at 150 hp/s on a 929 health pool, which lasts longer? The 1344 health pool. If anything, the shield rep tools should be higher than armor rep tools since shield is focused on regen.
Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
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