As far as logis go I think they should only be able to deploy a single hive or droplink at a time (this goes double for everyone else). With the caveat that the deployables should last significantly longer (if you are wearing a logi suit) and provide commisurately more benefit per unit.

This would prevent:

Quad armor hive tanking.

Deliberate spam lag.

Zerg rush lemming link placement.

And would encourage loginerds to carry more options than four varieties of droplinks and/or hives.

Repair guns? Scanners? Injectors?

Limiting deployables will force more careful use than "spam all my hives around a supply depot to easy farm warpoints!"

Once we do that, the logis need some survivability/escape/evasion love.

Armor hives near resupply points makes sense. Reload hives is just whoring.

As far as logis go I think they should only be able to deploy a single hive or droplink at a time (this goes double for everyone else). With the caveat that the deployables should last significantly longer (if you are wearing a logi suit) and provide commisurately more benefit per unit.

This would prevent:

Quad armor hive tanking.

Deliberate spam lag.

Zerg rush lemming link placement.

And would encourage loginerds to carry more options than four varieties of droplinks and/or hives.

Repair guns? Scanners? Injectors?

Limiting deployables will force more careful use than "spam all my hives around a supply depot to easy farm warpoints!"

Once we do that, the logis need some survivability/escape/evasion love.

Current proto uplink:

1. 2 active, 3 carried.
2. 20 spawns per uplink (60 potential spawns in total).

New characteristics under this proposal:

1. 2 active, 12 carried.
2. 5 spawns per uplink (60 potential spawns in total)

Current proto nanohive:

1. 2 active, 3 carried.
2. 48 clusters per nanohive (144 potential clusters in total).

New characteristics under this proposal:

1. 2 active, 12 carried.
2. 12 clusters per nanohive (144 potential clusters in total).

@ Cross - Bad URL

Fie!

/me fights with google

EDIT: Try now.

A few things here, first being able to deploy only one is in my view bad form and does not actually address most of the concerns, however there is a strikingly similar idea that I support (more on that at the bottom).

Armor hive tanking, even proto based hex armor hive tanking, can be overcome without casualties by a couple scouts or a heavy lobi pair. I use these examples because I witnessed both during my play time last night. (In the case of the scouts they were even outnumbered by the 'blue' forces on the hives).

I have still not seen any confirmation that deployed gear causes lag. I know many players believe this to be true, and I am not saying I can prove it to be false. But what I am saying is that every test on it I have personally run has shown no direct correlation and I have experienced my worst lag (out side of PC matches) in games where equipment deployment was mild (under 12 pieces total) to non-existent.

Non-tactical uplink placement can happen no matter how many uplinks can be deployed, and does not become less likely with a limit of this nature because so much of the uplink spam is from people who are not actually playing support they are playing slayer with either a 'swap and drop' or the use of a burner suit. This limit would decrease the number of links they could deploy but not the practice, because it in no way effects their direct role (slaying). Meanwhile these 'fire and forget' assets would persist for even longer (if not bound to the logi suit) and would become closer to useless (if bound to the logi suit in the current methodology where buffs cease to function upon the death of the squishy logi).

People who are actually playing support rarely mono stack equipment (more common with hives than uplinks in my experience). I have tried stacked uplink suits to test the viability of using them throughout a match, they run just over 185 to just over 219k ISK and between 374-554 HP (eWar fit, or brick tanked both including the effects of maxed skills). Now someone with a better gun game than mine could get better results no doubt but regardless of that it is hard to run these setups at a profit without heavy combat avoidance (alone the lines of run when you see red dots) and most Logibros run diverse equipment racks not mono tactics.

I agree limiting spam is useful, though most often the culprits aren't actually playing logi (either being in a support fit nor focused on a support role) during most of the match, which I think is worth noting.

Agreed that logi frames need some hugs to be viable in the current game state and that pushing that forward at the same time as an equipment revision is a sound path to take.

Having said all of that here's the current alteration to the deployed equipment mechanic that I support.


This set up maintains current max potential while requiring active play by assigning smaller 'portions' to each deployed hive/link as they would require consistent reapplication to remain functional making support play less 'fire and forget'. This would also result in fewer wasted spawns and clusters for those who already actively play support as they would abandon less of their total payload when their squad moves/lose less when their gear is fluxed/destroyed.

The other asset of this proposal is that I am reasonably confident it can be implemented server side solely by altering current item stats and thus is a low dev time solution.

0.02 ISK
Cross

ps ~ I also currently support the notion of support equipment by and large having higher fittings cost and lower ISK cost than present along with an improvement to the logi role buff further pushing sets of proto equipment into the purview of the support specialist role.

Will post more in depth later, but my initial takeaways...


I would vote for method 2 in regards to the bonus changes.

I would vote to split the difference with the changes to deployable and active equipment. Too big of a sweeping change imo.

I would vote to half the proposed HP buffs, and further buff the regen.

At first I was shocked at losing CPU and Grid, but then I saw the 50% reduction to equipment, but then I saw the 25% increase to actual fitting requirements. We want to make logis better with equipment, not completely take it out of every other suits hands, yes?

I think we are making some good progress!

Will post more in depth later, but my initial takeaways...


I would vote for method 2 in regards to the bonus changes.

I would vote to split the difference with the changes to deployable and active equipment. Too big of a sweeping change imo.

I would vote to half the proposed HP buffs, and further buff the regen.

At first I was shocked at losing CPU and Grid, but then I saw the 50% reduction to equipment, but then I saw the 25% increase to actual fitting requirements. We want to make logis better with equipment, not completely take it out of every other suits hands, yes?

I think we are making some good progress!

It's spreadsheet time.

This is the current amalgamated result of feedback gathered here, in game, through e-mail and skype as well as CPM conversations and some on the ground testing (you know, that whole 'played support logi as main role since closed beta' thing) by yours truly.

The goal of this proposal is to enhance the fidelity of the logistics support niche, making it a more active role (i.e. less fire and forget/spamable) while promoting some unique advantages (one of these being more flexible racial affinity as that is a frequently stated community desire). In attaining these goals, which per force include better survivability, steps were taken to avoid overly encroaching on other roles in game (for example avoiding the "killer bee" CalLogi days of old).

Please provide input on this spreadsheet via this forum thread and when doing so note that it is feedback on the spreadsheet proposal so as not to get any feedback mixed up (this is derived from previously provided community feedback after all ).
Also bear in mind that some of these ideas may turn out to be beyond the scope of server only updates and thus could require further revision but I deemed it valuable to discuss the conceptual merits at this point regardless, and have made best efforts to note potential tech constraints which will require review.

Finally I would like to reiterate my usual request, that being to keep comments and feedback constructive as while I love a good debate vitriol and hyperbole aren't very actionable and as such do not really contribute to the feedback process.

Alright mercs, speak up.


Cheers,
Cross

EDIT: Also, my spelling can be awful sometimes when dyslexia trumps spell check, so feel free to let me know if anything has slipped through and needs correcting. Thanks
EDIT2: Thanks to the scouts of the barbershop for making my understanding of eWar upgraded from level 0 to it's current approximate level 3 (your input on the eWar ideas I threw at you was very helpful o7)
EDIT3: Seems the hyperlink isn't working for several people so I'm adding the raw one here in hopes that will work better:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OMpIZBbCMXXi4nkk-NykpDla7SCBo9nYmfIjV28Dp0w/edit?usp=sharing

MECHANIC POINTS FOR REPAIRING INSTALLATIONS, CRUS, SUPPLY DEPOTS, TURRETS AND VEHICLES.

RENAME THE TRIAGE MECHANIC AS.........MECHANIC.

PUT A CAP ON IT SO IT CANT BE FARMED.

Regen and speed definitely need a buff.

I won't bother repeating anything that has been said anymore than I already have lol.

Under the proposal the current triage mechanic would be revised somewhat so that use of repair tool, and injector would provide a consistent earnings WP gained to HP restored ratio. This is important to avoid the current problem where potential earnings actually decrease as quality of gear increases. This change would also offer value to repping scouts and other low armor suits, who in my view should not be punished simply for focusing on a lighter frame build.

With the above changes in place mechanic points would follow the same method but the ratio of WP per HP restored would have to be different as installations and vehicles have much higher HP pools and making it more earnings effective to rep the local CRU than to provide reps for any of the mercs spawning from it would be an unfortunate direction to go, no?

Hence the wording with regards to the inclusion of mechanic points, which I fully agree should be restored to the game.

Question: Are you saying;
1. Good job, the proposed regen and speed buff are spot on
2. Reduce the HP buff, and further increase the regen and speed buffs
3. Keep the HP buff as proposed, but further increase the regen and speed buffs
4. Something else I am overlooking

?

Cheers,
Cross

Its looking good but i think shield recharge should be 20hp/s and on that same note, assaults need at the least to be 25hp/s with min assault getting a buff to 30hp/s and caldari getting a slight buff as well.

I think we need slightly more speed or a native 1hp/s armour rep rate that goes to 2hp/s at adv and 3hp/s at proto. This would stack with gallente as well.

Im not factoring in brick tanked logis or assaults that use the logi as an assault as there is no point balancing against those types. We did that before and i have seen it done in other games, they just move to the next thing to abuse which gets nerfed and then they move on again leaving the 'proper' players of a role screwed.

3, but i think we should get one or the other with speed and regen buffs.

Edit: that hp stacks quite a fair bit with level 5 dropsuit armour so now looking at it, we should get one or the other with regen and speed.

Thank you for the clarification

maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist.

take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can.

the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius.

currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost.

a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it.

this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn.

with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role.

maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist.

take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can.

the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius.

currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost.

a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it.

this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn.

with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role.

maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist.

take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can.

the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius.

currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost.

a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it.

this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn.

with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role.

This style of game play is what the spreadsheet hopes to move things more towards. I acknowledge there are certain departures from the spreadsheet and what you describe however a full alteration of function as opposed to a change in numeric stats as listed in the sheets proposal, will come with a much higher dev hour cost and I am not confident it can be done without a UI update. While hives reimagined as an active module with a cooldown certainly have virtues worth discussing I think that is more of a Legion change then a Dust one tech wise.

How do you think the current proposal holds up to your designs on the subject, even if it faces some obvious constraints?

This style of game play is what the spreadsheet hopes to move things more towards. I acknowledge there are certain departures from the spreadsheet and what you describe however a full alteration of function as opposed to a change in numeric stats as listed in the sheets proposal, will come with a much higher dev hour cost and I am not confident it can be done without a UI update. While hives reimagined as an active module with a cooldown certainly have virtues worth discussing I think that is more of a Legion change then a Dust one tech wise.

How do you think the current proposal holds up to your designs on the subject, even if it faces some obvious constraints?