+1

Also, new equipment selection wheel is not being enjoyed. I am not sure why the prior version needed to be changed, I don't recall ever hearing someone complain about it, but please bring it back.

All I got out of that was... Something about warpoints and you wanted to change it on the logi...

So you think the Logi is useless.
Here is an idea for your grammar -- First sentence always should contain the key idea of the topic...
Just be like " LOGI SUCKS IT NEEDS WORK" ... then you can express your feelings.

I think the logi should do a lot more too. Its really hard to give a list of things that I think it should do... Because WE haven't seen the entire game or what they are going to put in game.

Maybe the Logi should have a few controllable drones? That can see a field of distance and point things out automatically, or do lil kamakazis. Maybe the lil drones could be customizable ?
They make the Logi sound like an engineer but they still don't utilize them correctly or towards that fashion.

A engineer wouldn't be healing people, they would be capturing things... using tools that no one else uses.. Carrying lil mobile base towers that can deploy and make a radar or something. Not carry a lil SMG.

I don't know, its hard to say with not seeing what all they are wanting to put into game. So far all we know is that there is just 4 classes a pilot and commander...
More reason they should make the character model system, sandbox... So people could REALLY outfit their character to their own specification and a Commander would be an awarded thing.

"This faster cycle eliminates the need for use of more advanced algorithms to track damage/rep streams, mitigates the problem with War Points being awarded at the end of the Repair Tool cycle, and allows for easier scaling of War Point awards between Tools of differing Meta Levels."

A total overhaul of the system would be more development resource intensive so the solution proposed below attempts to avoid (what seem to be) the more resource intensive changes to the system in favor of (what seem to be) lighter tweaks, in hopes that I can help save CCP on the overhead.

Short version for Xiree:

PROBLEM:
You get points for a set time of healing, not the amount you heal.
Better healing gear means you heal more in a set amount of time.
Thus, they get healed faster and you get less points because you can't heal them as long.

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:
Make the point reward base on amount healed or % of amount healed. Bad solution, needs more programming.
Make the better healing gear give you points faster than the crappy gear. Can do it by arbitrarily telling it to (per cycle) or can make them do it faster (have shorter cycles).

PS: He said all this in his first post.

How about adding in overheating to the repair tool factor as well. Constant use on low end models should overheat.

To Xiree: Good for you not getting into a flaming war and actually asking for help/explanation. That is respectable

To Cross: A very good post. Well thought out. Too often do we only hear complaints and no suggestions. Here you have offered both. and I agree wholeheartedly.

Though I would change WP to SP or SP/WP (even though SP is still a mystery). But that is my take. There should be a change to repping and rezzing rewards to make it worth the risk and time one has to invest in to become an adequate support character.

I would like to see repairing yourself brought back as an option when you are not targeting anyone. Sure, take away the SP/WP gain - but it just makes me more of a threat on the battlefield - it is a small but worthwhile advantage for carrying that thing around.

I would like to see repairing yourself brought back as an option when you are not targeting anyone. Sure, take away the SP/WP gain - but it just makes me more of a threat on the battlefield - it is a small but worthwhile advantage for carrying that thing around.

That would be a nice additional perk, possibly free up a little CPU/PG when running a Tool because you wouldn't need to rely on a Repper Mod. More importantly it would allow for a bit more speed or tank to try and get to/survive those fire fights we get to throw ourselves into. EDIT: Quick thought here, what if that effect were tied to a higher level Meta variant of the Repair Tool? That could provide another incentive/benefit of actually training up the skills and using quality Tools.


Also a couple questions since I've got LogiBros here.

1) What would you think of differing droupsuit bonuses within each Meta level, say derived from racial variations? All other stats being equal but for example, getting something extra for armor rep from Amarr. Extra cycle speed, longer lasting hives, etc (what are some of your ideas)?

2) What is the current status of shield repairs? Is there even a mod/tool out for an infantry Logi to do that, and if so what are the WP/SP awards like (both amount and mechanic)?

Now if it's a bonus on later levels of the repair tool I can agree to that. That means you put some effort into getting to that point instead of just throwing on a militia BP and getting free healing, and that means mostly LogiBros will have this ability. Since we have weak hp levels we kinda need the self repair option, and if others want to put in the SP and ISK for high level repair tools then I'm cool with them having the ability to self repair too.

As for your questions:

1. Good idea, I like it. I would give each race's suit one effect and have one suit for each race in each tier, increasing the effect as you go up the tiers.

2. As far as I know there is no means for repairing shields, but I really wish that functionality would be added to repair tools. I think it's bullshit that it's not already. Even if they reduce the amount you get for healing shields, it would be a big help for us LogiBros and the people we look after on the battlefield.

And I have one to add. How about a bonus for using logistics equipment while in a Logisuit? You can easily run repair, supply, revive, and droplinks out of almost any suit. Being able to carry more logi items is helpful, but I think wearing the suit should increase the WP you get, or at least boost the effect of the logi items you use. We need some help keeping up with everyone else out there.

About repper's 'better repper, less WP' -problem:


If WP's are awarded after each rep cycle, there's a simple and elegant solution:
Make better reppers have faster cycle time.

+ Higher meta reppers are better because of faster repair
+ In combat situation, Logi gets more WP directly proportional to the repper being faster.
+ In peaceful situation with only set amount to rep, WP gain is the same (less chances of exploit)

+ No need to tweak values of rep
+ Very simple to code

This gets my vote totally.

On the issue of repairing yourself though, I don't see an issue at all. Pretty much every game I've played support in allowed you to heal yourself as a secondary fire. I mean wouldn't it be pretty dumb to carry a repair tool yet not be able to use it on yourself?

Just be sure that the player doesn't gain SP for self repairing and it's all good.

Sorry, I've just been using the militia one to save in ISK. If I get around to trying it I'll let you know.

Short version for Xiree:

PROBLEM:
You get points for a set time of healing, not the amount you heal.
Better healing gear means you heal more in a set amount of time.
Thus, they get healed faster and you get less points because you can't heal them as long.

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:
Make the point reward base on amount healed or % of amount healed. Bad solution, needs more programming.
Make the better healing gear give you points faster than the crappy gear. Can do it by arbitrarily telling it to (per cycle) or can make them do it faster (have shorter cycles).

PS: He said all this in his first post.

I would like to see repairing yourself brought back as an option when you are not targeting anyone. Sure, take away the SP/WP gain - but it just makes me more of a threat on the battlefield - it is a small but worthwhile advantage for carrying that thing around.

Quick (related) question for the LogiBros here assembled.

It's a two parter
1) Has anyone gotten to test the armor repair Nano Hives in Codex? (If so are they working?)
2) If they are in fact repairing properly, do said repairs award War Points (and if so at what rate?)

Only on proto gear, it should be a perk of proto tools.

1. They work fine but repairs kill them quick.
2. WP are rewarded for resupply only.

I just basically summarized the entire conversation.

CCP Wolfman>'We're currently looking into a hotfix to stop boosting and strike spamming to temporarily stop this behavior until more pernament solution can be applied via new build. Updates will be made once we have something concrete as we explor posisble hotfix options and capabilities.

CCP Wolfman> Also Tactial Assault Rifles are getting fixed. '

CCP Wolfman > We're looking into removing AV mines.

Discussed Hotfixes possible options but not limted to:

0'ing out all point gains from repair and remote modules.
0'ing out all point gains for repairfnig vehicles.
Bumpering Up vehicles to make them harder to damage with collision.

Long Term Build Fixes Discussed but not limtied to:

Yellow Zones where players cannot earn SP in. (current red zone where enemies cant enter but you can)
Re-adjusting squad WP mechanics.
Balance out WP gains for various tasks.
Tracked HP values (IE damage caused by collisions cannot be repaired or scored.)
Moving Strikes into Assist count kills only
Giving the Barge Limited Ammo

This may also be a good time to suggest your own fixes, remember hot fix is number tweaks only. Build fix can get a bit more creative though.

This is pretty close to what I propose in the OP, the one aspect you're overlooking is that currently higher level reppers heal more per cycle than lower Meta ones so unless that aspect is changed s

My point was exactly to change that all reppers have same rep amount but cycle decreases as meta level gets better.
Should be simple.

My point was exactly to change that all reppers have same rep amount but cycle decreases as meta level gets better.
Should be simple.

"Update: We've already made some changes on how the repairing mechanism works, and all logistical rewards will encourage players to be more in the midst of battle."

I wonder what this means specifically. You guys might find it interesting https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=361530#post361530

We also plan to implement a cool down timer on how often WP can be earned.

Good read Cross. I like your solution to the Repair Tool problem. I currently use the Triage Repair Tool anyway since it heals my team much quicker to keep us in the thick of things. Plus the quicker I heal them the quicker i can get back to gunning the enmey down. On that note though.

Do you think it would be appropriate for CCP to adapt that mechanic (High Meta Level = More WP Gained Per Cycle) to other peices of equipments like NanoHive's and Nanite Injectors?

In repsonse to the fact that Armor Repair Nanohives effectively net you less WP despite the ISK you paid i have a few random suggestions i'd like your opinion on:

Timed Hives - Nanohives opperate based on a timer instead of just sitting around and reward a flat rate of SP while at least one Member of your team stands inside it (excluding you.) An example would be that you drop the hive it lasts for 15 seconds (random number) and it rewards you 5 WP for every second it's active and a player is inside it. Max Potential Gain = 70 WP/ Minimum Potential Gain = 0 WP. High Meta levels could breed longer lasting Hives for more potential WP gain.

Pluse Hives - Nanohives that opperate awarding you points everytime a Player is given ANY kind of bonus and gives said bonuses in a set order. Such as a Nanohive that is designated by the system to restore Armor first and THEN ammo or Ammo First and THEN armor. I'm not sure if i'm explaining it well. When a player walks into a Nanohive they're hit with a burst of light. That burst, or pulse, gives them ammo, which rewards the person that placed the Hive. Current Hives give you Ammo and Armor at the same time. This would, however, give you a designated bonus first, and then the secondary bonus. Your character would be awarded say 5 WP for every pulse it took to restock/repair them. High Meta Level = More and Quicker Pulses.

Seperate Hives - Nanohives would work much in the same way as they do now. Only sperate Ammo Restock Hives from Armor Repair Hives alltogether.

Thoughts?

Keep the faith.

If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way

The point is that by using the cheaper gear you actually get more WP. Militia Rep will take more cycles to bring full armor, more cycles means more WP, hence incentivizing the use of cheaper gear.

I've added bold to the quote above on the key area.

To set this out in terms that those who don't run Logi can understand, picture this.
You spend your Skill Points into gun skills, you invest heavily in the Assault Rifle path, and bam you get kills faster... reducing the number of War Points you earn for kills/assists

...doesn't make much sense, does it?

Also having the milita gear grant a higher WP return over the Proto gear means that it incentivises farming over legit play.
I've been saying that since last build, and this build the farming got so bad that they turned off all WP on the Rep Tool.
Now that's a hotfix and I support CCP putting a stop to the farming, but it's time to move beyond and hotfix and address the original problem which is that the WP awards system for Logi is scaled improperly, it's cost v benefit rewards more WP to the milita gear while costing less in both ISK and SP.

The problem with Nanite Injectors is that the Higher Meta levels = High Risk Less reward.

Reviving is tricking and can't be done from range. It's very easy to get yourself killed when you run out to revive a fallen ally.

The BPO Nanite Injector doesn't cost anything so there is no risk in losing it for the gain of 60 WP. In contrast, the Advanced Nanite injector restores twice as much armor, and costs 20,000 (random value since i can't remember the exact price) times more than a BPO Nanite injector for the SAME WP gain.

You said that reviving your ally should be about them earning more WP, but that's not really the case. What does happen is that you made it so they didn't lose out on potentially hundereds of thousands worth of ISK when they died. Just because they got up at 50% HP instead of 25% doesn't mean that they're going to last any longer than normal.

THE END RESULT is that you spend MORE to gain NOTHING.

If i spend money on a better Nanite Injector to that i can revive SOMEBODY ELSE. I don't gain a thing. All i do is lose money when i die.

If spending my time trying to get something to make myself more effective ends up hurting me then something is wrong.

(Proposal)

Some may not like it but i'd like to see Nanite injectors as such:

Level 0 Injectors = HP - 20% / 20 WP (Uses more CPU and PG than Teir 1 Nanite Injectors)

Level 1 Injectors = HP - 20% / 20 WP (same gain, only it's easier to fit.)

Level 2 Injectors = HP - 40% / 40 WP

Level 3 Injectors = HP - 60% / 60 WP

Level 4 Injectors = HP - 80% / 80 WP

Level 5 Injectors = HP - 100% / 100 WP

sic the Whole point is to keep your teammate alive so that they can get more WP.

If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way

Thank you, why should logistics get more points for better gear? No one else gets more points for better stuff why should we? I wish the SP was passive so this thread would be pointless.

Read my post directly above yours, and Post #63 to which it refers. The current system does give an effective increase in War Point awards to 'killer classes' as you use better gear, it gives a lower potential War Point gain to 'medic' classes for investment of Skill Points and ISK into higher level gear.

The proposal of this thread is to bring the War Point award mechanics for Logi in line with those of someone using an Assault Rifle. If you have an objection to those two aspects of Dust scaling in an equitable parallel manner please provide specific details as to why.

0.02 ISK
Cross

I say just keep it action based. the more you use it the more points you get. All the logi equipment dose the same thing higher tier stuff just does it better. ya repair tools get the short end of the stick but its an easy fix; give them the same amount of points for each tool but better tools get points faster.

i use my best suit fit on most map's 3-5 time's (causing huge isk sink if enemy lucky overkill's -.- )
so im runing around whit 80% revive and advanced repair tool most of the time sure if i revive ppl they dont die as fast as other's and require less repair keeping me firing faster and longer doesent change the fact most time's some asaulth bluebery run's in and revive's the guys whit is militia nanite injecter causing the longer repair need and posible redown on it

are you going to tell the new player's or asaulth oriented guys to put points in something they dont wanne role in? im just hapy geting picked up if the enemy's are dead wich sadly over halve of the time there are no triage's nearby and 25% of the time's there is they dont even bother picking you up either they forget they got the nanite injecter (highly doubt this cause you only see down icon's whit the injector) unless they are inside a vechical in wich case you dont see the downed icon's on the minimap

even if ppl start using the beter gear its highly unlickly that asaulth type player's wanne waste there sp on a suportive non combat increasing skill's even less cause they have to remove one of there beter item's to make CPU/PG requirdment for the beter nanite's

I feel its better if CCP fixes it RIGHT, rather than using the easy way out. The original OP is a great short term solution, but doesnt fix the problem.

Awarding points for amount repaired is the most effective way of awarding the logibros. Cycles should not matter as there are many times that a "cycle" doesnt even complete and you still rep the heavy in front of you......because thats your job.

If its based on cycle, it will just make logis wait until a specific threshold is made.....say half armor, before they start repping to get the full WP gain. Also losing locks and breaking your cycle is a major problem with the cycle mechanic.

Agreed on the injectors providing wp on the amount of armor they provide.

This still needs to happen. Hopefully it will when repair tool war points are back.

Please have something up for next build.

I feel good healing up my bros (and my sisters), but I get that hole inside when I know I could've earned more had I not been healing.

While not entirely relevant to this thread, I would like to see reppers that do more than the Triage variant. It would be nice to be able to deal out nearly as much repair as incoming DPS. Perhaps and Adv Proto Rep that does 2x Triage.

While not entirely relevant to this thread, I would like to see reppers that do more than the Triage variant. It would be nice to be able to deal out nearly as much repair as incoming DPS. Perhaps and Adv Proto Rep that does 2x Triage.

Go ahead Cross. I somehow think that you would be better with the wording. Thanks for asking. :-)

:Looking back at my posts I am not sure if I explained my thought very well here. I think I did a better job in corp chat/forums.

Giving a Rep tool that you can 'Overheat' to bring forward vast healing numbers. Make it in tune with the Lasr Rifle, ie: Heat up, Cool down, Overheat shuts it down for a time. Would need it to be a lvl V Reap tool, with some skill (possibly already in play) that reduces the heat up or speeds cool down. I just want to be able to keep a single heavy from going down in a fight, let me at least match the DPS of an AR

Go ahead Cross. I somehow think that you would be better with the wording. Thanks for asking. :-)

:Looking back at my posts I am not sure if I explained my thought very well here. I think I did a better job in corp chat/forums.

Giving a Rep tool that you can 'Overheat' to bring forward vast healing numbers. Make it in tune with the Lasr Rifle, ie: Heat up, Cool down, Overheat shuts it down for a time. Would need it to be a lvl V Reap tool, with some skill (possibly already in play) that reduces the heat up or speeds cool down. I just want to be able to keep a single heavy from going down in a fight, let me at least match the DPS of an AR

Repair Tools

a. Stable variants do not have reduced CPU/PG needs, as par their description.

b. Same stats as normal repair tool, no benefit to using them.
c. Higher price than normal repair tool.
d. Has no advanced or prototype models.

a. Inert variants have no visible information on it's effect on Installations.

b. Has no prototype model.

a. 'Fractal' Performs better than -ALL- other variants.

b. Lower skill requirement than 'Schizm'.
c. Lower aurum cost than 'Schizm'.
d. No ISK equivalent.

Axis variants do not have a standard or prototype model.

Flux variants do not have an advanced model.

Triage variants do not have an advanced model.

Drop Uplinks

a. Stable variants do not reduce CPU/PG needs, as par their description.

b. Same stats as normal uplink, no benefit to using them.
c. Higher price than normal uplinks.
d. Does not have an advanced model.

'Dawnpyre' should require advanced level skills, not standard.

a. Imperial uplink has no obvious benefit over Ishukone Gauged.

b. Costs twice as much as Ishukone Gauged.

a. 'Abyss' Carthum uplink performs better (at spawn time) than -ALL- other variants.

b. Performs worse (at spawns) than -ALL- other variants
c. No ISK equivalent.

Flux variants do not have a prototype model.

Gauged variants do not have an advanced model.

Quantum variants do not have a prototype model.

a. Compact variant claims that it repairs armor.

b. Does, in fact, repair armor.
c. Does NOT indicate such with the (R) symbol on it's name.
d. No advanced or prototype models.

Normal variants do not have a prototype model.

a. Stable variants do not reduce CPU/PG needs, as par their description.

b. Same stats as normal nanohive, no benefit to using them.
c. Higher price than normal nanohive.
d. No advanced or prototype models.

a. Flux variants should have a larger field than Triage variants.

b. No standard or advanced models.

Gauged variants do not have an advanced model.

Quantum variants do not have a prototype model.

a. Triage variants do not have a standard model.

b. Have no visible information on it's affect on armor repair rate(s).
c. Prototype model does not have higher CPU/PG needs like the advanced model.

a. (R) Variants have no standard or prototype models.

b. Have no visible information on it's affect on armor repair rate(s).

A couple of questions for my fellow Logi's

• Has anyone gotten both awards from the new system from repairing vehicles? I have only gotten the Guardian (i.e. points from a kill made while being repaired) award.
• In your assessment does the new awards system resolve or maintain the "cycle" issues with War Point awards from previous builds?

Cheers,
Cross

Cross i have not recieved any "Triage" bonus for repairing a Tank or LAV but i have also gotten the Guardian.

In an unrealted note.

I have a theory about the Cycles about the repairing of Dropsuits and Repair tools. I don't actually think it's based on how many cycles at all.

I think it might be based on how much % of a Dropsuits Armor HP you repair. I could be wrong but i'll share my experience.

I had been playing an Ambush match on Ashland mostly using my completely free fitting that included a Militia Repair Tool and had been getting a stable amount of WP off of the blueberries around me. After a while i noticed that the battle was leaning heavily in our favor but a Militia HAV had come in and was trying to move on us.

Since the Supply Depot was nearby i decided to switch to my expensive fit that had Packed AV grenades and my Triage Repair Tool. As i was waiting for the Tank to get close enough for me to use my Grenades, i noticed a friendly scout was nearby with next to no armor and proceeded to repair them, upon which i noticed +25 appearing rapidly on my screen. I managed to count how many i had gotten and it totaled 4 Counts for a total of 100 WP.

A little later i stumbled upon a friendly heavy who was being assaulted and managed to get my Repair Tool on him just before he was about to die and got 25 Points for Triage and 35 points for Guardian. Once the enemy was dead the Heavy was at about 1/4 of his health (This heavy was a Type 1 since he had a lot of armor.) and by the time he was fully repaired i had gotten a total of 5 Triage and 1 Guardian off of him for the whole time.

Since the Heavy was being assaulted before it could be said that i repaired him for 5/4 of his health which is why i got a 5th Triage Award. It's my believe that since i got 4 Counts and a Scout and again about 4 Counts on a Heavy (only the heavies counts appeared much slower) That the amount of Triage Awarded is based on a percentage of Armor HP restored to the target rather than how long you are actually repping the target.

I need more data for it to be conclusive though.

Keep the faith.

Yes please, more WP for reviving with better nanite injiectors.
Maybe 60 standard, 80 advanced and 100 for the proto? Even 60-70-80 would be good.

Also agree on the repair tool and the selection Wheel.

Just necro bumping this thread as it needs to be fixed

Yes please, more WP for reviving with better nanite injiectors.
Maybe 60 standard, 80 advanced and 100 for the proto? Even 60-70-80 would be good.

Also agree on the repair tool and the selection Wheel.

I agree. There isn't ever a situation where-in the rewards for using lower quality gear should exceed those offered by using higher quality gear. The point of DUST is to manage Risk v. Reward. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. The current implementation does not fit this paradigm.

Or...... have it be based on every 100 health repaired

and have the advanced nanite injectors work faster

I think he means that the stand up time, should be shortend by higher gear injectors.
I would like them to stand up faster, too :)

+1
Good ideas, and I think a fix would be great. Also like someone else previously said, the system used in Mag was great.

I'm going to go ahead and rock the boat on this. I am a Logi player, and I use medium level kit at this point, since I don't have the SP for better.

Regarding the Repair Gun:
Better repair = more cycles in the long run, hence more WP. This is because a militia repair gun will not keep a guy on his feet. So he dies, and you die trying to revive him. Costly mistake. Using the Triage gun instead keeps the guy alive longer, giving me more cycles and, more importantly, a better chance of winning the gunfight and the battle.

Regarding the Injectors:
I see the same situation. How many revives you get doesn't really change, since reviving the guy is done for a few reasons - stay alive, save clones, keep pressure on, save kit and WP. WP should be the least of your concerns.

Injectors that give more armour make it more likely that they'll stay on their feet, and inversely you stay alive. So better injectors save you ISK and make it more likely to win the gunfight and the battle. Yes a militia injector gives more WP in repairing after the revive, but now you've both been standing around hoping not to get shot for 2 minutes.

So I see no reason to reward Logi players in a battle based on what kit they brought, rather than what they did in the game. Better kit should allow you to do more, creating more opportunities for reward. Changing the WP system on these would do just reward people for what they already could do. I think that to say that you want more reward for the better kit is really ignoring what that kit is for, and a silent bid for more ISK through an indirect source. This all just seems to be a side effect of people getting used to the game at present, which is just a grind for ISK and SP. When the game's scope is added later, I think this will make much more sense.

+1

In the case of the Repair Tool reduce the following attributes. War Point awards per cycle, cycle time, and amount healed per cycle. The new GÇÿmicroGÇÖ cycles for the Repair Tool can then be more readily scaled by Meta level to provide War Point awards appropriate to their effect. A simple method for scaling War Point awards would be Meta 1 multiplies total awards by a factor of 1, with each higher Meta level increasing the multiplier (specific amounts of increase to be determined by testing).
[/list]

On an upside for you guys, last night I was getting more 5 more WP for using the Triage rep gun than the militia rep gun. Looks like they've heard you :) Can anyone confirm this?

Again, any confirmation here? I think they've fixed this

I believe you were gaining the WP bonus associated with squad orders being followed.

The people I was repping weren't in my squad though. Is it not working for you?

That shouldn't matter - if for instance the defend order was placed on either you or a squad mate near you, any action that gains WP near the person designated with the defend order receives bonus WP.

Granted, if that wasn't the case (easily test-able) then I'm full of **** as per usual and you can ignore me.

All I got out of that was... Something about warpoints and you wanted to change it on the logi...

So you think the Logi is useless.
Here is an idea for your grammar -- First sentence always should contain the key idea of the topic...
Just be like " LOGI SUCKS IT NEEDS WORK" ... then you can express your feelings.

I think the logi should do a lot more too. Its really hard to give a list of things that I think it should do... Because WE haven't seen the entire game or what they are going to put in game.

Maybe the Logi should have a few controllable drones? That can see a field of distance and point things out automatically, or do lil kamakazis. Maybe the lil drones could be customizable ?
They make the Logi sound like an engineer but they still don't utilize them correctly or towards that fashion.

A engineer wouldn't be healing people, they would be capturing things... using tools that no one else uses.. Carrying lil mobile base towers that can deploy and make a radar or something. Not carry a lil SMG.

I don't know, its hard to say with not seeing what all they are wanting to put into game. So far all we know is that there is just 4 classes a pilot and commander...
More reason they should make the character model system, sandbox... So people could REALLY outfit their character to their own specification and a Commander would be an awarded thing.

No it really wasn't all that great. I'l admit ZipperGäó did a lot of things right but CCPGäó has done much better at keeping Equipment in check.

It comes in other forms than more WP from the single action. It comes in victory, it comes in prolonged life and it comes in increased pressure on the battlefield and saving time.

I'm going to help ya out here and agree.

For the first time I think ever, I was revived by a Wyirkomi Nanite Injector. That guy deserved both serious ISK and WP. So how about when you revive more expensive suits, you make more money?

Solution to this problem would be to remove WP.

Came to thread expecting an idea of joining injector and repper into one tool and giving logistics suit a substantial bonus to their efficiency.

I have a different point of view in regards to the repair tool rewards that I have been meaning to share. I am usually a very active logi so I tend to keep very busy repairing, reviving and resupplying. Regardless of if I uses the militia or the triage repair tool I end up repairing people long after I stop receiving warpoints. I would say it is not rare to only be rewarded for maybe 1/3 of the repair work I do using the triage repair tool.

So part of this post is a question to others. If I am healing past the point of receiving points regardless of the quality tool used, am I not receiving the same amount of points in total?

Back to my idea, I would actually like to see a smaller reward per repair tick over a longer period. The result would be a more consistent reward as players repaired armor. I realize that idea wont be popular since some people might get fewer points, and that's fine, but I think it would be a more balanced system with less confusion from new players and more reward for dedicated healers.

I am not opposed to better rewards from better equipment but I don't see that happening. The logistics class is already ridiculously good at accumulating warpoints for the work we do.

Another option is partial WP reward for revive (like 25% of current), and then +10 WP every 5 seconds up to +40 WP if the subject survives for that long. Therefore you would have an interest in keeping them alive for at least that long. Just revivng players in fire wouldn't get you as much.

@Kaze Eyrou sorry I missed your post before and in response; No, not that I know of and I certainly hope not. D514 is one of the better games I've played in awhile despite it's beta state and I attempt to keep my feedback tied to actual testing so it would be a shame if I've somehow gotten myself ignored for reasons unknown.

In full fairness to CCP while this thread remains unanswered despite it's weight several other issues I've raised have been addressed so perhaps in this case there are internal issues holding up an official Dev response. While I fully understand that can happen after seeing this issue persist through several builds it would be nice to get some blue response to it.

I have seen some players confused over the WP gain on the repair tool, what is the time frame, how many point can you get in xx time frame, is there cap and so on.

Personally I am fine with the limits and I am making an assumption that the fix that was implemented was just a hot fix and way to stop abuse from the previous builds. When you are repairing someone, especially a heavy that has taken a lot of armor damage, you get a good amount of satisfaction of reward for staying with that heavy till he is repaired.

However, after you are done with the heavy, you turn to the guy beside him, he has damage as well, you repair him and you see no feedback from the system. The feeling is, well, disappointment? boredom? you understand the reasons why but you still want to have the feeling of gain.

I would like to see the repair system upgraded to a diminishing returns over time layout. Where you see +25 for the first couple repairs, but as it reaches the timeframe cap the wp gain reduces to +10, +5, +2, +1 and at the cap +1 is the lowest it would go. Over time, the cap increase / the wp cool down goes back down and the process starts again.

What are the benefits? well Logis are going to always feel like they are getting something, which is very important for anything that someone does. Hack a point, get wp, destroy something, get wp, heal something, I want the system to at least acknowledge the fact that something is being done and it's contributing to the success of the team.

I am sure it's not an easy request, but please consider it for a future release.

-Brush
[email protected]

So, I had commented in another thread about how months ago there was already a thread on repair tools... i had forgotten that this was it. This is still the defining area for arguments and discussion on the subject. However it is translated to other threads matters little as long as the information is still dispersed.

Increased wp for increased meta is acceptable, though i would first prefer just to get points for all of my reps, either way there needs to be a fix. Thanks Cross for this great thread.

I think the solution should include all forms of logi though. We are just talking about dropsuit on dropsuit, but I think the whole matrix of repairs should have some comprehensive reward system. Repairing installations, vehicles, and vehicles repairing everything. There has to be a way to make it viable.

I am a logi. And i don't see a problem with less WP for doing my duty. The reward for me is immaterial. I don't have to kill.
But someone have to do it. Let's not kid ourselves. DUST is FPS. It means it is aimed at killing by various methods.

For logis to have to do anything there must be somebody to provide a task and do a dirty work. For logis to clean up the mess

(1)WP stands for War Points. War means death and destruction. And a logi is trying to do something opposite. So don't expect to be rewarded for desertion...

Worst of all a logi is an easy target. And respawns a lot. This means we eat up clones quick. Hopefully our "sacrifice' means that
clones reserves depletion by non logis will drop significantly and reduces a battle re-entry to min. for them. Giving more time to focus on hacking objectives and depleting adversary's clones reserves.

(2)So the balance is this:
A logi gets peace of mind but less WP/ISK/SP.
A non logi stains his conscience and is reimbursed by more WP/ISK/SP
So ask yourselves this:
Do you logi for WP or for peace of mind? If for WP then just tap R2 lightly and then R1 and forget about rezzing or repping...
But you will gain more WPs...

DUST is not meant to be fair unfortunately. In it's game summary it brags about unending conflict. We logis are just a drop in the ocean. Let's be frank. The war can continue without us and we are on our own. If we want to be of some use we need to be better not because of WP incentive but because we want to bring life not death.

But... there is a catch if you do this for higher reason. When you rezz a merc you bring back somebody to life and this means somebody else is probably going to die thanks to your effiort. This is wicked... So even when you think you don't kill, you do after all...
By proxy...

Given all of the above it is surprising there is a possibility to be a logi in DUST. But it is very kind of you CCP.

(3)There is Light at the end of this tunnel. And this is not some piece of machinery or danger approaching.
Don't give up your logi effort. It will pay out but not in the form of WP. After all for a true logi it's not about WP.

Thanks

A problem currently confronting LogiBros is that the War Point system, as it stands, rewards use of the basic Repair tool over the use of the higher quality Repair Tools. This also bleeds over into Nano Injectors where use of the expensive and skill intensive Injectors awards only as many War Points as the milita gear.
The two compound when considered together as the best War Point gain is garnered buy running the lowest quality injector and tool in combination.

The solution for the Injectors is simple, scale the War Points awarded to account for the extra healing done beyond the base value to account for the extra amount repaired.

Rep Tools are a little more complex. Part of their problem is that points are awarded at the end of a cycle rather than in real time, part is that each cycle awards the same amount of points, making Tools that heal more per cycle award fewer War Points for the same total amount repaired. A total overhaul of the system would be more development resource intensive so the solution proposed below attempts to avoid (what seem to be) the more resource intensive changes to the system in favor of (what seem to be) lighter tweaks, in hopes that I can help save CCP on the overhead.

As such the best solution appears to be a two fold implementation;
First tag the WP gain as higher for higher level gear. This could be done by applying a WP gain amount to each Rep Tool individually or more elegantly by using the Meta Level of the Tool to flag it's awards for a multiplier of some size (specific numbers to be determined by testing, but the goal would be WP awards in keeping with amount Repaired).
Second, to avoid having to rework the whole Repair Tool system, reduce the War Point awards, time taken, and amount healed per rep cycle. This faster cycle eliminates the need for use of more advanced algorithms to track damage/rep streams, mitigates the problem with War Points being awarded at the end of the Repair Tool cycle, and allows for easier scaling of War Point awards between Tools of differing Meta Levels.

The major drawback to this fix is that it might require a rework of the associated skill values to maintain their effects as intended but altering skill values seems like a lower resource investment than developing a new Rep/WP mechanic for Tools and Injectors.


Fellow Logies, CCP, betas in general, please chime in with your feedback.

Cheers,
Cross

EDIT:

Executive summery

• Current iteration of Repair Tool and Nano Injector system mechanics reward the use of low Meta gear over the use of high Meta gear.
• The reward disparity for Repair Tool and Nano Injectors is magnified when the mechanics of the current iteration are considered in context.
• The fundamental flaws in the current mechanics are; 1) Tracking Repair tool cycles rather than amounts healed. 2) Tracking successful Nano Injector uses rather than amounts healed. (There are additional flaws but those two comprise the heart of the awards problem)
• Solve the above problems by tying War Point awards for Repair Tool and Nano Injector use to the Meta Level of the device used.
• In the case of Injectors simply scale the awards to account for the extra (above the effect of Meta 1 gear) health restored by the higher Meta Injectors.
In the case of the Repair Tool reduce the following attributes. War Point awards per cycle, cycle time, and amount healed per cycle. The new GÇÿmicroGÇÖ cycles for the Repair Tool can then be more readily scaled by Meta level to provide War Point awards appropriate to their effect. A simple method for scaling War Point awards would be Meta 1 multiplies total awards by a factor of 1, with each higher Meta level increasing the multiplier (specific amounts of increase to be determined by testing).

All this Support increasing WP sounds awesome, makes it faster to call in Orbital Strike, but I think what CCP may be going for is trying to find ways to increase interactivity between Eve and Dust. Making it easier to call in NPC Orbitals makes it less likely to need any ships assistance.

I also think the focus is trying to get people into corps and fighting for planets and such. Corps and squads would already know the value of a good support player even above a good shooter. As for the leaderboards, yea sure all this sounds great.

Cross you are starting to pull me over to your side. I have been thinking about this lots more and I have been watching my play style and suit fits and I have realized that as I move up the logi equipment ladder I have been doing a lot more killing and less healing. I am not sure if it is because I am better shot, running with other logi in the squad or something else I am not aware of but you are getting more correct every battle.

At the beginning of the last reset I would have a negative KDR at the end of every battle with few exceptions but I would always be at the top of the board and now that I have more skills in "core" areas I find myself with a positive KDR. I give partial credit to my ELM and our love of tears. I have noticed that I don't drop many SPs in logi equipment compared to other areas because I like my equipment. I do run advanced stuff because I like it better than MTL or standard but you are correct that I have no good reason fro proto gear, except for a two beam tool. You have almost hooked me in with you.

Lastly, what is your opinion on vehicle repair and shield transportation? I have a lot of fun helping out team vehicles but get NO bonuses or payment. My reping and trans LAV cost about 100k and when I go zero and three and loose one or two LAVs and dropsuit it hurts my wallet. Almost anything would be a better system them that.

I just don't see the disparity of warpoints for Logi bros. In a good game I have no trouble whatsoever landing a high spot on the leader board.

As for remote reps vehicle mods; ***** broken and needs huge overhaul.

I just don't see the disparity of warpoints for Logi bros. In a good game I have no trouble whatsoever landing a high spot on the leader board.

As for remote reps vehicle mods; ***** broken and needs huge overhaul.