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ZDub 303
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
37
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Posted - 2013.05.09 04:13:00 -
[241] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:Thanks for such admirably patient posting. A reply to this thread is long overdue, but here goes.
First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
Some historical musings about repair rewards specifically:
In Chromosome, the repair rewards were changed from the old cyclical system. We replaced that with two new rewards:
Guardian - 35 WP - You're actively repairing a player who kills a target Triage - 25 WP - You repair someone who has taken damage within the last 60 seconds
The primary reason for switching from the old cyclical rewards to the above was exploitation -- with the old system, we saw players coming up with all sorts of cunning schemes for racking up record amounts of WP in record times. The new rewards are more difficult to exploit, as obtaining them requires interaction between the teams (and by interaction, I mean shooting the other team in the faceplate). As you would have to coordinate with players on both teams to exploit this (something that shouldn't be easy in e.g. instant battles), they should be more robust against exploitation. With the new rewards we also added a (tweakable) cooldown to how often you could earn rewards to have a fall back in case someone found a clever new way to game the system.
The new rewards are compatible with scaling based on the quality of equipment used and it's just a question of investing us finding some development time to make the WP reward system support it.
In the meantime, we'd love to hear your feedback on how the repair rewards are performing to make adjustments if necessary. Do you feel that the reward levels reasonable? Do you feel that reward experience you get consistent (i.e. do you get rewards when you expect to get them)?
As a fellow logi bro, I do feel that repairs need a little bit of rework. As it stands right now, from what I experience personally, you as a player enter a WP cooldown after 50-75 triage points worth of repair. Effectively, it means I don't bother repping more than one person usually, cause i'm not being rewarded for that second person. If you could tweak the rewards where we are getting triage points based purely on the amount of armor repaired, that would go a long way in encouraging people like me (assault logis) to start repairing again.
Something like: you get triage points for every xx armor repaired (you guys know the rate of WP/armor repped internally, ill let you fill in that blank). Up to say.. 60 (or whatever you intend) WP per person repaired, the person being repped enters a xx second cooldown before you or another logi can repair them and gain WP for doing so.
So I could, in theory, run around and repair people continuously and get a constant stream of WP for doing so. Higher level tools, by the nature of their higher repair rate, would automatically gain WP faster for doing so. You would probably need to tune down the WP rate for repairing, but by decreasing the WP/armor and increasing the WP/person you could make it so armor repping logis could just go nuts and gain tons of WP, but thats okay because they have given up their ability to kill people so they could support the team.
Just for example here: obv tweak the numbers as you see fit.
10 Triage WP generated for every 50 points of armor repaired, maximum 300 armor repaired before player being healed enters triage CD, at 60 WP generated by healing logi. Logi himself can never enter into a triage CD, he could continuously bounce from person to person repairing like mad and just watching +10 Triage popping on his screen every second or two. High level repair tools would have these +10s popping up like crazy. the core too at 105/s would see +10 pop up twice per second.
I emphasize a higher resolution of lower points per lower armor repaired, cause i often dont get points for topping off fellow assault players as they didnt have quite enough damage for me to see that +25.
Multiple logis healing the same person would share that WP pool and exhaust it quicker.
Same thing for vehicles and installations, except you could do +10 Repair for every 100 healed until 600 pts repaired.
This would help against exploits as the logi would have to continuously find new targets, and a large scale exploit wouldnt be worth the time anyways.
Lastly, make the CD work like overheat on a laser. Where the CD is continuously going down based on how much was actually repaired. If the full rep CD engages at say.. 60s for example, but I only repair 30 WP worth, then it starts a counter where every 10 WP repaired, adds 10s to the CD which goes down continuously after the first 10 WP has been repaired. So if another logi reps a person for 30 WP, and then I come along, I don't just get boned getting 30 WP from him and then he enters into traige CD. Could even make like how shields recharge, where there is a delay.. say the counter doesn't start counting until the person is no longer being repped (probably very similar to what is happening right now).
I dunno, my 2 cents on the matter. |
Cruxio
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 04:41:00 -
[242] - Quote
I'm surprised that in this 13 page discussion, active scanners were barely mentioned once as a foot note.
I tried scanners when they first came out as broken tried and tested each level, was interested and still am. If I can be rewarded for its usage, that would be fantastic. As it stands, I'm still using them now.
From what I can tell, beyond the warm feeling you get from helping your team score points, active scanners don't actually give you points in and of itself.
Which then the discussion needs to take place as to whether scanning gives points like the repair tool (points dependent on secondary action) or the injector (points from primary action).
Based on the active scanners themselves, it would make more sense to get points based on secondary actions if we consider with the scanners divisions, the have shorter scan intervals more frequent scans or delayed scans intervals with better tracking. So as a primary action that would nullify the longer tracking active scanners.
Edit:
As a third option, you could combine both, have a plus 5 on each target picked up and a plus 20 on a kill |
ZDub 303
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:07:00 -
[243] - Quote
Even something like a +5 scan assist on a kill would go a long way to helping scanners. |
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CCP Nothin
C C P C C P Alliance
190
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:40:00 -
[244] - Quote
We have quite a few additional WP rewards in plans along with iteration work on the existing rewards, e.g. rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was), giving a bonus for doing things with your squad, and so on.
Overall, we feel that we don't quite have the full set of rewards in place yetbut we are working at getting to a better place. As I see it, a decent player should be able to play in, for example, a support role full time without having to do part-time gigs in other jobs to cover the costs.
If you have a good idea for a reward that works to strengthen some of the areas that need it, we'd love to hear it.
|
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3759
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:44:00 -
[245] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was)
All 3 of these things I have wanted for quite some time, this pleases me.
Please make injector and repair tools give rewards based on how much HP was healed. |
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CCP Nothin
C C P C C P Alliance
191
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:51:00 -
[246] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was)
All 3 of these things I have wanted for quite some time, this pleases me. Please make injector and repair tools give rewards based on how much HP was healed.
Like I mention somewhere above, we have to do some development work on the WP system itself first to allow giving higher rewards for using better repair tools/nanite injectors, but.. we're headed there.
Also, rewards for scanning are naturally on the list of WP rewards we want to add :) |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3759
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:57:00 -
[247] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was)
All 3 of these things I have wanted for quite some time, this pleases me. Please make injector and repair tools give rewards based on how much HP was healed. Like I mention somewhere above, we have to do some development work on the WP system itself first to allow giving higher rewards for using better repair tools/nanite injectors, but.. we're headed there. Also, rewards for scanning are naturally on the list of WP rewards we want to add :) This is all good to hear
Unrelated, but please fix the HMG. I'm not a heavy but I make it a point to test weapons and suits with alts when new builds come, and even at advanced level its just terrible. Its only useful for camping inside cramped buildings, and even the SMG can do a better job of that. |
KING CHECKMATE
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:01:00 -
[248] - Quote
TRUE SUPPORT logis should earn more Sp / WP for supporting the team.
I dont play logi (yet LOL), i mean i dont play logi-support,but im sure if you got 200 wp for reviving a fallen teammate Freakn logis would be reviving everyone,as they should be.
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Tiluvo
Digital Mercs
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:18:00 -
[249] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:We have quite a few additional WP rewards in plans along with iteration work on the existing rewards, e.g. rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was), giving a bonus for doing things with your squad, and so on.
Overall, we feel that we don't quite have the full set of rewards in place yetbut we are working at getting to a better place. As I see it, a decent player should be able to play in, for example, a support role full time without having to do part-time gigs in other jobs to cover the costs.
If you have a good idea for a reward that works to strengthen some of the areas that need it, we'd love to hear it.
Currently HAV crews and logis get the best WP rewards, standard infantry could use some help. Give a bonus for killing enemies near hacking allies; that way you get rewarded for covering hackers. Give a bonus for killing enemies who have recently damaged a teammate; this rewards players for rescuing allies. Give a bonus for killing AV-equipped enemies near tanks, this rewards players for covering tanks. Give a bonus for killing enemies near logis, this rewards players for keeping me alive. Give a DS pilot a cut of all WP gained by his passengers for a period after leaving the DS, this rewards pilots for taking squads to useful areas. If Sentinels are defensive roles, they need paid for it. Give a bonus for all kills near cannons and installations, this rewards players for defending areas. |
Step-Away-Slowly
CERULEAN HEIGHTS
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:36:00 -
[250] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was)
All 3 of these things I have wanted for quite some time, this pleases me. Please make injector and repair tools give rewards based on how much HP was healed.
Using a better repair tool, nanite injector, or even a better nanohive should not be awarded any more sp than the standard ones give. The advantage to using better equipment is keeping your team alive and supplied. Especially useful in the previous build when you have squadmates running expensive fits and being a vital role in the winning or losing of the battle. That is what being a logi is all about, supporting the team. if you can't run face to face with an enemy and take them out, be a logi and follow a squadmate with a repair tool and be ready to throw down a nanohive if they get low on ammo. Just doing that should be enough motivation to do it, you get points for it anyways and never have to pull a trigger or hack an objective. Basically being a logi is earning you free points. You don't have to be productive, just have to help out the ones that are, which i guess in turn would be productive. |
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Step-Away-Slowly
CERULEAN HEIGHTS
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:38:00 -
[251] - Quote
Tiluvo wrote: Currently HAV crews and logis get the best WP rewards, standard infantry could use some help. Give a bonus for killing enemies near hacking allies; that way you get rewarded for covering hackers. Give a bonus for killing enemies who have recently damaged a teammate; this rewards players for rescuing allies. Give a bonus for killing AV-equipped enemies near tanks, this rewards players for covering tanks. Give a bonus for killing enemies near logis, this rewards players for keeping me alive. Give a DS pilot a cut of all WP gained by his passengers for a period after leaving the DS, this rewards pilots for taking squads to useful areas. If Sentinels are defensive roles, they need paid for it. Give a bonus for all kills near cannons and installations, this rewards players for defending areas.
I totally agree with this. It will make the "blueberries go out of their way to help out the team as a whole. |
Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:55:00 -
[252] - Quote
Good stuff! +1 |
Kekklian Noobatronic
Goonfeet
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:29:00 -
[253] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote: First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
Concern: If something like this went live, newer players who are currently reduced to using Militia or entry-level gear are going to be behind the WP curve.. Something like this would make the gap between Veteran and New player even worse.
If you do this, maybe something like EVE and Mechwarrior Online does with new players might be in order. For example, a temporary 'SP Gain Acceleration' for a certain amount of time. From the initial 500k to maybe 1.5M or 2M, with the gain accelerated at first(200-300% gain), tapering off as you reach the end(eventually to the current gain amount). Sort of a 'New Player' reward.
This would grealy improve the beginner experience, allowing them to get in to decent gear without the absolutely horrid Week 1 - 6 grind that currently exists(And I'm refering to the old SP layout - Considering my 5 mil did not go far, I imagine it's worse now!!). And, after giving them a taste of boosted experience, they'd be more likely to purchase boosters in order to keep the fix going.
The player wins, CCP wins, everyone wins. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
926
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:01:00 -
[254] - Quote
First and foremost I want to say thank you CCP Nothin for the response, I appricate your taking the time
CCP Nothin wrote:Thanks for such admirably patient posting. A reply to this thread is long overdue, but here goes.
First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense. I'm thrilled by this and happy to wait patiently for the resource and technical hurdles to be surmounted.
Quote: Some historical musings about repair rewards specifically:
In Chromosome, the repair rewards were changed from the old cyclical system. We replaced that with two new rewards:
Guardian - 35 WP - You're actively repairing a player who kills a target Triage - 25 WP - You repair someone who has taken damage within the last 60 seconds
The primary reason for switching from the old cyclical rewards to the above was exploitation -- with the old system, we saw players coming up with all sorts of cunning schemes for racking up record amounts of WP in record times. The new rewards are more difficult to exploit, as obtaining them requires interaction between the teams (and by interaction, I mean shooting the other team in the faceplate). As you would have to coordinate with players on both teams to exploit this (something that shouldn't be easy in e.g. instant battles), they should be more robust against exploitation. With the new rewards we also added a (tweakable) cooldown to how often you could earn rewards to have a fall back in case someone found a clever new way to game the system.
The new rewards are compatible with scaling based on the quality of equipment used and it's just a question of investing us finding some development time to make the WP reward system support it.
The new system has it's weaknesses but it is undoubtedly an improvement over the days of "bumper LAV" and all the other exploits. Combined with meta scaling I think it will preform even better.
Quote: In the meantime, we'd love to hear your feedback on how the repair rewards are performing to make adjustments if necessary. Do you feel that the reward levels reasonable? Do you feel that reward experience you get consistent (i.e. do you get rewards when you expect to get them)?
The average reward levels seemed reasonable under Chromosome, I've yet to spend sufficient time with Uprising to be certain here, I'll report back if the levels seem different under Uprising.
In regards to the consistency of the rewards experience there seems to be a lack of context. I've tested extensively so at this point IGÇÖve gained a feel for what to expect but I am the exception to the trends I've seen among players. The current system lacks any UI feedback and many players seem to have missed the post regarding Guardian v Triage awards and the cap. Here are the things I encounter most frequently when interacting with other Mercs, especially those new to use of the support equipment.
- Presumption that all repairs will earn something (obviously with the cap this is not the case)
- Presumption that a lack of rewards earnings/lack of rewards indicators (after cap is it) is not GÇ£working as intendedGÇ¥ but is in fact a bug that will be fixed.
- Upon learning of the cap the behavior shifts toward Repairing until cap is hit and then swapping to another action. More often than not that happens even if continuing to repair would be the best choice tactically.
- Frequency of the repair tool being stripped from fits; from CODEX to present repair tools have been (among non-exploit users) the first item on the block when freeing up equipment slots. In Uprising Injectors share the same fate to a degree due to hit detection but the repair tool is frequently passed over and a large part of that is the confusion and inconsistencies created by the cap/lack of in game feedback regarding the cap.
I am unsure of the possible mechanical limitations on this idea but IGÇÖd propose something in the following vein.
- Give players some in game indicator when theyGÇÖve hit the cap, and when they come out of GÇÿcooldownGÇÖ
- Separate Guardian and Triage rewards such that Guardian no longer falls under the cap, or failing that alter it such that each type of earning has a separate timer.
- Alter the cap to a GÇ£soft capGÇ¥ method where something is still earned after hitting cap, I would suggest a small amount such as 1-5 WP. Players are already familiar with this idea from the SP system and this single change would address a lot of the UI/cap confusion IGÇÖve outlined above.
- Post an explicit/detailed breakdown of how the system works as a sticky in the Training Grounds. New players are less likely to be frustrated or confused if they have information going in.
Cheers, Cross |
SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:08:00 -
[255] - Quote
award 10 WP for destroying enemy placed objects (i.e. Drop Uplinks, Remote Explosives, Nanohives) |
Sparadok
ZionTCD Unclaimed.
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:43:00 -
[256] - Quote
In terms of other suggestions it has always baffled me that I get 100wp for hacking a point yet you get nothing for counterhacking, now I realise that it keeps you in control of that point if successful but I regularly see blue dots ignore it and wait for it to flip before they hack it back. This is obviously because of the wp but also the time it takes to counterhack, as it takes so long in comparison which adds a greater element of risk, surely it would be worth adding in some wp for the counterhack that reflects the level of risk involved. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
927
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:58:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:We have quite a few additional WP rewards in plans along with iteration work on the existing rewards, e.g. rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was), giving a bonus for doing things with your squad, and so on.
Overall, we feel that we don't quite have the full set of rewards in place yetbut we are working at getting to a better place. As I see it, a decent player should be able to play in, for example, a support role full time without having to do part-time gigs in other jobs to cover the costs.
If you have a good idea for a reward that works to strengthen some of the areas that need it, we'd love to hear it.
Really looking forward to increased granularity of rewards (be they assists or otherwise), I know these things take time so color me excited not impatient. The direction you've outlined for WPs is making this tester very --->
Step-Away-Slowly wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was)
All 3 of these things I have wanted for quite some time, this pleases me. Please make injector and repair tools give rewards based on how much HP was healed. Using a better repair tool, nanite injector, or even a better nanohive should not be awarded any more sp than the standard ones give. The advantage to using better equipment is keeping your team alive and supplied. Especially useful in the previous build when you have squadmates running expensive fits and being a vital role in the winning or losing of the battle. That is what being a logi is all about, supporting the team. if you can't run face to face with an enemy and take them out, be a logi and follow a squadmate with a repair tool and be ready to throw down a nanohive if they get low on ammo. Just doing that should be enough motivation to do it, you get points for it anyways and never have to pull a trigger or hack an objective. Basically being a logi is earning you free points. You don't have to be productive, just have to help out the ones that are, which i guess in turn would be productive.
A better nanohive already gives better rewards than a low meta one, as does a better weapon when compared with a less effective weapon of the same type. This balance to scaling is already a nearly game wide phenomena with a few rare exceptions, such as the repair tool, and it has been pervasive for as long as IGÇÖve been a tester in Dust.
The idea you present above is a false dichotomy, tactical value and war point value are meant to function in parallel not in an antagonistic/zero some relationship. In short you should be earning war points based on the tactical value of your actions, anything less begins to distort the risk vs reward paradigm of D514 and also diminishes the meaning/diversity of player choice. Rather than rehash points already thoroughly covered in the thread however IGÇÖll direct you to start reading the posts beginning with #189, which directly relate to this subject. After all in a thread this size it can be easy to miss some of the discussion. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
927
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:59:00 -
[258] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:CCP Nothin wrote: First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
Concern: If something like this went live, newer players who are currently reduced to using Militia or entry-level gear are going to be behind the WP curve.. Something like this would make the gap between Veteran and New player even worse. If you do this, maybe something like EVE and Mechwarrior Online does with new players might be in order. For example, a temporary 'SP Gain Acceleration' for a certain amount of time. From the initial 500k to maybe 1.5M or 2M, with the gain accelerated at first(200-300% gain), tapering off as you reach the end(eventually to the current gain amount). Sort of a 'New Player' reward. This would grealy improve the beginner experience, allowing them to get in to decent gear without the absolutely horrid Week 1 - 6 grind that currently exists(And I'm refering to the old SP layout - Considering my 5 mil did not go far, I imagine it's worse now!!). And, after giving them a taste of boosted experience, they'd be more likely to purchase boosters in order to keep the fix going. The player wins, CCP wins, everyone wins. Your concern is somewhat addressed by the post series starting with #189 however let me provide some more direct context here. First something like this is not theoretical it is already live and has been live since closed beta, there are a few aspects of the game such as equipment where itGÇÖs not fully iterated at this moment but the basic concept is implicate to how D514 plays and functions and has been since I started in closed beta. There is, simply put, no functional way to make a sandbox game where player choices matter and also keep everyone on even footing. Even if D514 were gutted down to the level of a purely twitch game with zero implications to any action outside of the single match there would still be an implicit gap between new players and vets. ItGÇÖs important to maintain internal balance between the mechanical elements of the game, not try to enforce an artificial and unattainable parity upon the players.
That said IGÇÖm actually not opposed to the general concept of the idea youGÇÖve suggested and in fact voiced my support for it earlier in a thread by RINON114 which you can pull up via search if you are so inclined.
@Cruxio Thank you for bringing this up. I havenGÇÖt tested the scanner myself due to SP limitations but its function and rewards certainly have a place within this conversation.
Cheers, Cross |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
181
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:52:00 -
[259] - Quote
This is a fantastic thread. Very thought out and the discussion overall has been constructive, I am even more pleased to have a voice from the Devs looking at these posts. Cross, gentlemen-women, well done. I have nothing to offer other than please continue with any other ideas I'm tagging this as a favorite to reference in the future. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
989
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 14:05:00 -
[260] - Quote
Quick update. See bullet point list for TL;DR version
Above I posted that I'd be providing more feedback regarding Logi WP earnings in Uprising vs Chrome. This testing is currently stalled due to a combination of Injector activation/targeting issues (known bug CCP is hard at work to resolve this) and the current overpowered nature of the TAR. The TAR in its current state consistently kills even most tanked builds within 4 shots (presuming those shots land on target). These kills frequently (i.e. more than half the time) seem to cause bleed out rendering both Injectors and Reppers less useful. [It is worth noting here that bleed out from all weapons seems more common under Uprising than prior].
I do not feel the environment is sufficiently controlled for proper comparative testing at this point and as such this testing will remain on hold until the situation changes. If Uprising WP earnings (bugs and all) are compared directly to Chrome earnings then there is a drastic down turn in the net value of support actions under Uprising (note, net value not raw value).
Casual factors of the WP downturn under Uprising
- Nanohive Nerf (Hives now supply less ammo on average, thus lowering their potential earnings)
- Injector issues(There are quite a few of these, but to reiterate CCP is aware of this and working on the problem)
- Bleedout Increase (Repair Tool awards are down due to increased frequency of "insta bleed" and the altered average engagement range due to TAR spam. Weapons that drastically out dps the Rep per second of even proto tools and do so at several times the max range of the repair tool reduces the possible applications of the tool and thus it's rewards.
- Dropuplinks (These are now much easier to spot on the map, naturally causing them to be disposed of more often and thus greatly diminishing their offered earnings. I'd happily invest in a Proto Uplink with higher ISK cost and lower overall stats if it's scan profile were lowered. Can we have a line of CovOps Uplinks CCP?)
- Active Scanners (I am unaware of any implemented WP earnings at this time)
- Remote Explosives (Earnings potential seems to have maintained parity with Chromosome levels)
It is ironic that I see so many "nerf Logi" / "make Logi unable to fight and only support" threads at the same time as the functional net earnings for support actions are suffering. I know quite a few Logi and all of them I've played with/spoken with on the subject are (regardless of fittings employed) spending more time devoted to "slayer" actions under Uprising than the did under Chromosome (myself included). This situation only servers to highlight out thoroughly out of touch most of the pro "Logi suit nerf" crowd are with what playing a support role in Dust actually consists of/requires.
Cheers, Cross |
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
221
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 23:23:00 -
[261] - Quote
+1 to total thread. Still relevant and glad to see some CCP acknowledgement of the current system. It is sad the the Logi is being hindered from doing his job on the field. Can't wait for the updates to address these problems - also excited. |
Aquinarius Zoltanus
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 23:39:00 -
[262] - Quote
Sorry, this thread is a little old but I'm seeing it for the first time. Glad to have a confirmation from the Devs that they are working on this. One thing that CCP Nothin didn't mention in his post that I would really like to see is some sort of WP for destroying enemy equipment. Right now it's really fun and tactically important to go hunt enemy Drop Uplinks, but it'd be nice if doing that was rewarded with WP. It doesn't have to be much, maybe +10 WP per equipment destroyed. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
1006
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 14:11:00 -
[263] - Quote
Agreed Aquinarius I'm looking forward to that reward as well
Also a bit of additional info regarding the active scanner rewards are already planned and confirmed as being worked on. As my prior post stated they are not currently active in game (which impacts current support action earnings) but I did not want to leave the impression that no resolution to that situation was planned.
I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on the build update and testing the status of support earnings under Uprising once the documented bugs et al have been addressed. I expect a few touch ups to be required but I've the suspicion that once things are working as intended Logi's will very much like how Uprising plays for a support character.
Cheers, Cross |
Draco Cerberus
Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 14:33:00 -
[264] - Quote
+1 Bump for an excellent breakdown of the burden of a logi. Do I revive a guy to 80% armor with a wyrkomi injector and get him right back into the fight or revive him with a Kin-12 for 50% armor, give him the cooldown speach and toss him a k17D(R)? |
Den-tredje Baron
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 14:43:00 -
[265] - Quote
Very much like this i hope CCp has seen all this !! +1 |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 08:06:00 -
[266] - Quote
bump if they haven't |
Mikey The Bandaid
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:07:00 -
[267] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:We have quite a few additional WP rewards in plans along with iteration work on the existing rewards, e.g. rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was), giving a bonus for doing things with your squad, and so on.
Overall, we feel that we don't quite have the full set of rewards in place yetbut we are working at getting to a better place. As I see it, a decent player should be able to play in, for example, a support role full time without having to do part-time gigs in other jobs to cover the costs.
If you have a good idea for a reward that works to strengthen some of the areas that need it, we'd love to hear it.
It would be nice to get a small amount of WP for breaking enemy Nanohives and Drop Uplinks. Maybe like 5-10 WP. And as a Logibro I would love to see vehicle triage get rewarded! |
Treablo James Howard
WarRavens
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 17:49:00 -
[268] - Quote
You may not like this answer. But Increasing the WP gain may be a bad idea for Orbital strike potential.
In a good squad, we can use anywhere between 3-4 orbitals a game.
If you're looking to increase this WP potential. You could be seeing who knows 7+?
I hope CCP really considers the imbalance they're going to place on potential "rewards".
From my point of view. I get plenty of WP. And from your guys suggestions. I could get orbitals by myself, especially if I am getting more WP for hack interruptions, assists, and assisted hacks. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
1028
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 23:19:00 -
[269] - Quote
Treablo James Howard wrote:You may not like this answer. But Increasing the WP gain may be a bad idea for Orbital strike potential.
In a good squad, we can use anywhere between 3-4 orbitals a game.
If you're looking to increase this WP potential. You could be seeing who knows 7+?
I hope CCP really considers the imbalance they're going to place on potential "rewards".
From my point of view. I get plenty of WP. And from your guys suggestions. I could get orbitals by myself, especially if I am getting more WP for hack interruptions, assists, and assisted hacks. To address the last part of your post, additional WP for counter hacks et al will be a game wide increase and really is not the subject of this thread. Granted there is a Dev post here which mentions them but let's stay on point.
The subject of this this thread is not, and never has been, and attempt to increase overall WP earnings above Chromosome levels (Uprising levels are currently inadequate but that seems to be a side-effect of certain bugs).
The focal point of this thread is to establish and maintain proper internal WP scaling for the equipment line. Granted this may lead to certain successful players earning more WP than they do now but even so the balance will still be better as it will require a higher investment of ISK and SP to do so. Under current conditions the most WP valuable gear to run is Militia gear with potential earnings decreasing as higher meta gear is employed. That effect is improper and needs to be addressed.
If the thread in general/my clarifications remain unclear please post back and I'll be happy to link the specific thread posts in which these things are discussed in more depth.
Cheers, Cross
ps ~ I've run squads that earn 5-6 OBs already, at least with the changes proposed reaching those earnings levels won't be pinned to use of Militia gear anymore. Number of orbital strikes should be balanced by match wide WP potential, individual sub-categories of WP earnings should not be barred from internal balance to prevent it. Even thought parts of them interact they're still separate issues. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1063
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 23:35:00 -
[270] - Quote
Uprising Support earnings Templar Manhunt edition
Providing an addendum/update to my post #260
The data presented there seems to be maintaining at this point.
Support earnings rundown, advice for Logis
- Repair Tool -- The Repper is now king. While it still faces some of the problems present prior to Uprising it is currently the most stable source of support earnings, practice the lock on and don't deploy without it. Also bear in mind that a higher ratio of points under Uprising will be Guardian than Triage (as compared with Chrome levels).
- Uplinks -- Despite the hit they took with their new "you can see me everywhere on the map" scan profile the Uplink is in second place of effective earnings. Best use of uplinks to ensure earnings is to place a minimum of 2 in the same area making certain that they are not in close enough proximity to each other so as to be simultaneously visible on radar.
- Remote Explosives -- With the decrease in general support earnings REs despite their more 'slayer' leanings are holding strong in third for equipment to field. Running these can secure a flank or rearguard position for your squad allowing you to support them with repairs et al while they stay within focus fire range of each other.
- Nanohives -- Don't expect them to last long or to get as many WP out of them but they're still in high demand (maybe even higher demand than before) and if you have them your squad/team will gratefully use them. Best ptratice for a mobile Logi is to deploy a hive upon request from 2 squad members (1 if he's totally dry) and allow it to be fully consumed before the squad moves on. Refresh your stock of nanos at a depot as soon as possible so you're always ready to supply your squad. Keep your squad leader apprised of how many hives you have remaining.
- Injectors -- The bugs are still hitting our needles pretty hard but with a few tricks you can make them worth fitting. Remember the body is not the point of revive instead follow the arrow. Second make sure your squad knows that jumping or standing on an incline will make revival very difficult (do not attempt such revives with any hostile presence). Sometimes you can jump to the point in mid air where a squadmate died and revive them with use of the new system but don't rely on this method. Lastly if the body does fall more or less straight down aim for near the ankles as they tend to be the point closest to the actual revive area.
- Active Scanner -- Useful piece of gear but WP rewards are not yet enabled.
Don't forget your light weapon. Uprising is the time of the 'slayer' Logi. Even for those of us focused on heavy support roles maintaining our WP and ISK totals will often require more frequent use of our guns than was needed in Chrome. Focus fire, covering fire and softening up/finishing off hostiles while your squad mates are reloading are all good ways to employ your light weapon in support of your squad. Even once the bugs are fixed and support actions are truly back in business these skills will retain usefulness so take this chance to practice them.
Until next time this is Cross saying keep your injectors sharp and our reppers powered. o7 |
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