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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.04 01:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
A problem currently confronting LogiBros is that the War Point system, as it stands, rewards use of the basic Repair tool over the use of the higher quality Repair Tools. This also bleeds over into Nano Injectors where use of the expensive and skill intensive Injectors awards only as many War Points as the milita gear.
The two compound when considered together as the best War Point gain is garnered buy running the lowest quality injector and tool in combination.
The solution for the Injectors is simple, scale the War Points awarded to account for the extra healing done beyond the base value to account for the extra amount repaired.
Rep Tools are a little more complex. Part of their problem is that points are awarded at the end of a cycle rather than in real time, part is that each cycle awards the same amount of points, making Tools that heal more per cycle award fewer War Points for the same total amount repaired. A total overhaul of the system would be more development resource intensive so the solution proposed below attempts to avoid (what seem to be) the more resource intensive changes to the system in favor of (what seem to be) lighter tweaks, in hopes that I can help save CCP on the overhead.
As such the best solution appears to be a two fold implementation;
First tag the WP gain as higher for higher level gear. This could be done by applying a WP gain amount to each Rep Tool individually or more elegantly by using the Meta Level of the Tool to flag it's awards for a multiplier of some size (specific numbers to be determined by testing, but the goal would be WP awards in keeping with amount Repaired).
Second, to avoid having to rework the whole Repair Tool system, reduce the War Point awards, time taken, and amount healed per rep cycle. This faster cycle eliminates the need for use of more advanced algorithms to track damage/rep streams, mitigates the problem with War Points being awarded at the end of the Repair Tool cycle, and allows for easier scaling of War Point awards between Tools of differing Meta Levels.
The major drawback to this fix is that it might require a rework of the associated skill values to maintain their effects as intended but altering skill values seems like a lower resource investment than developing a new Rep/WP mechanic for Tools and Injectors.
Fellow Logies, CCP, betas in general, please chime in with your feedback.
Cheers,
Cross
EDIT:
Executive summery
- Current iteration of Repair Tool and Nano Injector system mechanics reward the use of low Meta gear over the use of high Meta gear.
- The reward disparity for Repair Tool and Nano Injectors is magnified when the mechanics of the current iteration are considered in context.
- The fundamental flaws in the current mechanics are; 1) Tracking Repair tool cycles rather than amounts healed. 2) Tracking successful Nano Injector uses rather than amounts healed. (There are additional flaws but those two comprise the heart of the awards problem)
- Solve the above problems by tying War Point awards for Repair Tool and Nano Injector use to the Meta Level of the device used.
- In the case of Injectors simply scale the awards to account for the extra (above the effect of Meta 1 gear) health restored by the higher Meta Injectors.
In the case of the Repair Tool reduce the following attributes. War Point awards per cycle, cycle time, and amount healed per cycle. The new GÇÿmicroGÇÖ cycles for the Repair Tool can then be more readily scaled by Meta level to provide War Point awards appropriate to their effect. A simple method for scaling War Point awards would be Meta 1 multiplies total awards by a factor of 1, with each higher Meta level increasing the multiplier (specific amounts of increase to be determined by testing).
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
One quick addendum. For those folks who like this idea please help me keep the topic active/on the front page by posting here even if it's only a "+1".
Thanks 
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 08:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
VADOL II wrote:+1
Also, new equipment selection wheel is not being enjoyed. I am not sure why the prior version needed to be changed, I don't recall ever hearing someone complain about it, but please bring it back.
Agreed, the selection wheel has been more difficult to use quickly/effectively since Codex. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 13:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alright Xiree, challenge accepted :)
IGÇÖm going to respond to your quoted section. After that IGÇÖll attempt an GÇÿexecutive summeryGÇÖ which will hopefully make things clearer for yourself and any others my OP may have perplexed a bit.
The Quoted bit lacks some clarity on my part because IGÇÖm not always the best proofreader of my own writing. IGÇÖve attempted to fix it here:
Quote:"This faster cycle eliminates the need for use of more advanced algorithms to track damage/rep streams, mitigates the problem with War Points being awarded at the end of the Repair Tool cycle, and allows for easier scaling of War Point awards between Tools of differing Meta Levels."
The goal of the above statement was to provide a possible solution to the current mechanical problems within the revive and repair systems used in Dust. The core aspect of those problems being that the mechanics currently award more War Points for the use of the lowest Meta gear with War Point awards diminishing progressively as the quality of gear used increases.
As Quill Killian correctly points out the ideal system would be one in which repair awards are tracked and given in real time based on the actual amounts being repaired/healed.
My OP however did not suggest that ideal system, the following quote from the OP states why.
Quote:A total overhaul of the system would be more development resource intensive so the solution proposed below attempts to avoid (what seem to be) the more resource intensive changes to the system in favor of (what seem to be) lighter tweaks, in hopes that I can help save CCP on the overhead.
My preference is for the ideal system, but there are fundamental limitations to the hardware and software available when developing for a console platform. As such I wrote the OP to suggest a method to near that idea while using a minimum of Development and platform resources.
GÇÿExecutive summeryGÇÖ
- Current iteration of Repair Tool and Nano Injector system mechanics reward the use of low Meta gear over the use of high Meta gear.
- The reward disparity for Repair Tool and Nano Injectors is magnified when the mechanics of the current iteration are considered in context.
- The fundamental flaws in the current mechanics are; 1) Tracking Repair tool cycles rather than amounts healed. 2) Tracking successful Nano Injector uses rather than amounts healed. (There are additional flaws but those two comprise the heart of the awards problem)
- Solve the above problems by tying War Point awards for Repair Tool and Nano Injector use to the Meta Level of the device used.
- In the case of Injectors simply scale the awards to account for the extra (above the effect of Meta 1 gear) health restored by the higher Meta Injectors.
In the case of the Repair Tool reduce the following attributes. War Point awards per cycle, cycle time, and amount healed per cycle. The new GÇÿmicroGÇÖ cycles for the Repair Tool can then be more readily scaled by Meta level to provide War Point awards appropriate to their effect. A simple method for scaling War Point awards would be Meta 1 multiplies total awards by a factor of 1, with each higher Meta level increasing the multiplier (specific amounts of increase to be determined by testing).
I hope that helps clarify things, if you have any remaining questions please ask.
Cheers,
Cross
ps ~ I try to be clear but I've got both insomnia and dyslexia and sometimes they get the better of me  call me on it and I'll do my best to rectify the situation.
EDIT: Also OP updated. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 13:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Whispercrow wrote:Short version for Xiree:
PROBLEM:
You get points for a set time of healing, not the amount you heal.
Better healing gear means you heal more in a set amount of time.
Thus, they get healed faster and you get less points because you can't heal them as long.
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:
Make the point reward base on amount healed or % of amount healed. Bad solution, needs more programming.
Make the better healing gear give you points faster than the crappy gear. Can do it by arbitrarily telling it to (per cycle) or can make them do it faster (have shorter cycles).
PS: He said all this in his first post.
Cheers mate, you're better at summarizing than I am. Good looking out |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 01:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:To Xiree: Good for you not getting into a flaming war and actually asking for help/explanation. That is respectable
To Cross: A very good post. Well thought out. Too often do we only hear complaints and no suggestions. Here you have offered both. and I agree wholeheartedly.
Though I would change WP to SP or SP/WP (even though SP is still a mystery). But that is my take. There should be a change to repping and rezzing rewards to make it worth the risk and time one has to invest in to become an adequate support character.
Agreed with your first, Xiree thank you for being mature and actually asking rather than trolling (just in case it wasn't clear before what I thought).
Good point on the WP/SP, I didn't want to include SP directly since the mechanic is unknown but using both makes sense, I think I'll update the language in the OP when I get a bit.
Regarding Repper Overheating
This is an interesting idea, I'm going to give it more thought and post back again but here are my initial thoughts.
- Could add a skill to reduce the Overheat effect, at level 5 with Proto tool could run continuously. Drawback is even more stuff for LogiBros to spend SP on the pro of this; 1) Rewards use of high Meta gear and investing Logi skills. 2) raises the required investment for farming behavior (hopefully mitigating farming).
- Implementation doesn't seem resource intensive, could likely use the overheat mechanic for LAV guns and fine tune from there.
- Overheating seems compatible with the ideas in the OP
More to come later
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 02:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:I would like to see repairing yourself brought back as an option when you are not targeting anyone. Sure, take away the SP/WP gain - but it just makes me more of a threat on the battlefield - it is a small but worthwhile advantage for carrying that thing around.
That would be a nice additional perk, possibly free up a little CPU/PG when running a Tool because you wouldn't need to rely on a Repper Mod. More importantly it would allow for a bit more speed or tank to try and get to/survive those fire fights we get to throw ourselves into. EDIT: Quick thought here, what if that effect were tied to a higher level Meta variant of the Repair Tool? That could provide another incentive/benefit of actually training up the skills and using quality Tools.
Also a couple questions since I've got LogiBros here.
1) What would you think of differing droupsuit bonuses within each Meta level, say derived from racial variations? All other stats being equal but for example, getting something extra for armor rep from Amarr. Extra cycle speed, longer lasting hives, etc (what are some of your ideas)?
2) What is the current status of shield repairs? Is there even a mod/tool out for an infantry Logi to do that, and if so what are the WP/SP awards like (both amount and mechanic)? |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 14:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bosse Ansgar wrote:Cross Atu wrote:RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:I would like to see repairing yourself brought back as an option when you are not targeting anyone. Sure, take away the SP/WP gain - but it just makes me more of a threat on the battlefield - it is a small but worthwhile advantage for carrying that thing around. That would be a nice additional perk, possibly free up a little CPU/PG when running a Tool because you wouldn't need to rely on a Repper Mod. More importantly it would allow for a bit more speed or tank to try and get to/survive those fire fights we get to throw ourselves into. EDIT: Quick thought here, what if that effect were tied to a higher level Meta variant of the Repair Tool? That could provide another incentive/benefit of actually training up the skills and using quality Tools. Also a couple questions since I've got LogiBros here. 1) What would you think of differing droupsuit bonuses within each Meta level, say derived from racial variations? All other stats being equal but for example, getting something extra for armor rep from Amarr. Extra cycle speed, longer lasting hives, etc (what are some of your ideas)? 2) What is the current status of shield repairs? Is there even a mod/tool out for an infantry Logi to do that, and if so what are the WP/SP awards like (both amount and mechanic)? Now if it's a bonus on later levels of the repair tool I can agree to that. That means you put some effort into getting to that point instead of just throwing on a militia BP and getting free healing, and that means mostly LogiBros will have this ability. Since we have weak hp levels we kinda need the self repair option, and if others want to put in the SP and ISK for high level repair tools then I'm cool with them having the ability to self repair too. As for your questions: 1. Good idea, I like it. I would give each race's suit one effect and have one suit for each race in each tier, increasing the effect as you go up the tiers. 2. As far as I know there is no means for repairing shields, but I really wish that functionality would be added to repair tools. I think it's bullshit that it's not already. Even if they reduce the amount you get for healing shields, it would be a big help for us LogiBros and the people we look after on the battlefield. And I have one to add. How about a bonus for using logistics equipment while in a Logisuit? You can easily run repair, supply, revive, and droplinks out of almost any suit. Being able to carry more logi items is helpful, but I think wearing the suit should increase the WP you get, or at least boost the effect of the logi items you use. We need some help keeping up with everyone else out there.
Regarding self healing I would tie it to at least Advanced gear, and perhaps restrict it to only Proto. Another possibility would be that only specific variants[/v] of tools would have that effect to increase market diversity, in which case I would lean more heavily toward a proto only implementation.
1. Glad you like it :) I'm trying to come up with useful bonuses that would keep in flavor with both racial backstory and Logi battlefield role. Ideas anyone? (Oh and I like the idea of the bonus effect scaling with the suits meta level, good cool )
2. Agreed that this functionality should be added to Tools. The current tools already have different values (in both amount restored and WP given) for Vehicles vs suits so the coding shouldn't be too hard to implement. There would have to be a priority structure (likely Armor first then shields if armor is 100%) but it doesn't seem like a difficult coding task.
I like the idea of a bonus to using Logi gear on Logi suits (it makes sense after all). I could see these effects coming in three possible forms (tho there may be more options?) first is a "Role Bonus" ah-la EVE ships in which the PG/CPU requirements of specific gear is drastically discounted when running the associated suite. Example Link: http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Guardian <-- Check under the "Role Bonus" heading.
The second is an enhanced effect for specific role related gear, Example link: http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Impel
Check under Transport Ships Skill Bonus
The third is simply an added effect on the suit itself which would benefit the specific role of the suit. Check out the prior link under the heading [b]Role Bonus for an example of this.
As an aside I think this same concept (unique role bonuses for suit types, likely linked to racial variants to increase dropsuit diversity on the market) would work well for the other suite types as well, but obviously that's a conversation for another thread 
Cheers,
Cross
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.08 02:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:About repper's 'better repper, less WP' -problem:
If WP's are awarded after each rep cycle, there's a simple and elegant solution:
Make better reppers have faster cycle time.
+ Higher meta reppers are better because of faster repair
+ In combat situation, Logi gets more WP directly proportional to the repper being faster.
+ In peaceful situation with only set amount to rep, WP gain is the same (less chances of exploit)
+ No need to tweak values of rep
+ Very simple to code
This is pretty close to what I propose in the OP, the one aspect you're overlooking is that currently higher level reppers heal more per cycle than lower Meta ones so unless that aspect is changed it's going to remain more effective to run milita than proto from a purely WP gain point of view. Not only is that backwards but it also increases farming (harder to farm if you need to train for, and then buy, expensive gear with higher PG/CPU requirements). I'm not saying the OP will fix farming, but it'll help :)
Thanks for contributing to the thread
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 15:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ty 'SweetCheeks' Borg wrote:This gets my vote totally.
On the issue of repairing yourself though, I don't see an issue at all. Pretty much every game I've played support in allowed you to heal yourself as a secondary fire. I mean wouldn't it be pretty dumb to carry a repair tool yet not be able to use it on yourself?
Just be sure that the player doesn't gain SP for self repairing and it's all good.
Yes agreed and worth reiterating, we're not asking for any WP/SP gain for self repair just that the effect be added to the Repair Tool (likely at a more advanced Meta level).
Glad the thread gets your vote 
Cheers,
Cross
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.10 02:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quick (related) question for the LogiBros here assembled.
It's a two parter
1) Has anyone gotten to test the armor repair Nano Hives in Codex? (If so are they working?)
2) If they are in fact repairing properly, do said repairs award War Points (and if so at what rate?)
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.12 02:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bosse Ansgar wrote:Sorry, I've just been using the militia one to save in ISK. If I get around to trying it I'll let you know.
I'm still interested for sure, tho don't rush on that now that hives have been nerfed.  |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.12 02:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sooooo, CCP, did Logis do something to anger you or have you got us all mixed up with the farmers? 
Because legit Logis certainly can't have been earning too many War Points on average (unless I am just epically bad at being a Logi and haven't caught on
So most recent word
Quote:
- Increase WP gain interval on nanohives from 20s to 30s.
- Removed war point rewards for repairing actions and made repair tools once again able to repair installations.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40682&find=unread
Now CCP does state "Please bear in mind that these fixes are not final, and that we are working on long-term changes for our next major update to further address issues regarding War Points."
So here's me crossing my fingers that this is a temp fix to stop the farming from polluting the data and a real fix will come later. Because if not... well if not there is not enough *facepalm* in the world to describe my sentiments.
For the "TL;DR" crowed.
CCPs most recent hotfix takes the underwhelming and broken Logi WP system and replaces it with a WP system where by Logis get even fewer points for Nano Hives (which may not even award points properly in upper Meta anyway) and removes WP gain from Repair Tools entirely.
Translation: Expect to see fewer Logis on the field, their options for supporting Mercs to be fewer, and their overall skill development to lag even further behind assault Mercs.  |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.16 04:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thread needs more eyes on. Not only are all issues presented here still issues but some of them have actually been made worse under the recent hotfix. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 20:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:I would like to see repairing yourself brought back as an option when you are not targeting anyone. Sure, take away the SP/WP gain - but it just makes me more of a threat on the battlefield - it is a small but worthwhile advantage for carrying that thing around. Only on proto gear, it should be a perk of proto tools.
That's where I'm leaning too, it should be a reward for high Meta gear and SP investment.
The Robot Devil wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Quick (related) question for the LogiBros here assembled.
It's a two parter
1) Has anyone gotten to test the armor repair Nano Hives in Codex? (If so are they working?)
2) If they are in fact repairing properly, do said repairs award War Points (and if so at what rate?)
1. They work fine but repairs kill them quick. 2. WP are rewarded for resupply only.
Sweet, thanks for the info.
Now we just need to fix #2 because really why pay more ISK for a gear feature that causes it to be used up faster while also reducing your WP gain from it?
Thanks for the response :)
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.16 22:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Update:
Ok so I missed an earlier post with related information from the IRC chats, seems I dropped the ball there.
Here is the info
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I just basically summarized the entire conversation.
CCP Wolfman>'We're currently looking into a hotfix to stop boosting and strike spamming to temporarily stop this behavior until more pernament solution can be applied via new build. Updates will be made once we have something concrete as we explor posisble hotfix options and capabilities.
CCP Wolfman> Also Tactial Assault Rifles are getting fixed. '
CCP Wolfman > We're looking into removing AV mines.
Discussed Hotfixes possible options but not limted to:
0'ing out all point gains from repair and remote modules.
0'ing out all point gains for repairfnig vehicles.
Bumpering Up vehicles to make them harder to damage with collision.
Long Term Build Fixes Discussed but not limtied to:
Yellow Zones where players cannot earn SP in. (current red zone where enemies cant enter but you can)
Re-adjusting squad WP mechanics.
Balance out WP gains for various tasks.
Tracked HP values (IE damage caused by collisions cannot be repaired or scored.)
Moving Strikes into Assist count kills only
Giving the Barge Limited Ammo
This may also be a good time to suggest your own fixes, remember hot fix is number tweaks only. Build fix can get a bit more creative though.
So confirmation that as we were assuming the Repair Tool change is hotfix only and not meant to be long term.
As such I suggest we move forward with this thread under the assumption that the hotfix is not in effect and address our feedback accordingly.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 23:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Cross Atu wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:About repper's 'better repper, less WP' -problem:
If WP's are awarded after each rep cycle, there's a simple and elegant solution:
Make better reppers have faster cycle time.
.
.
.
This is pretty close to what I propose in the OP, the one aspect you're overlooking is that currently higher level reppers heal more per cycle than lower Meta ones so unless that aspect is changed s My point was exactly to change that all reppers have same rep amount but cycle decreases as meta level gets better. Should be simple.
Ah, well in that case it sounds like we agree because in short that is the repper fix proposed in the OP.
Cheers,
Cross
ps ~ I agree with you it should be a pretty simple fix on the dev side, doesn't seem like it would require any heavy coding or deep reworks of the overall system to get it balanced properly. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.23 17:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
Thanks for the link, checking it out now.
EDIT: Well hopefully that translates into a fix for the current poor WP rewards system for Logi and not just a further fix to farming (which does need to go) that once again/still more punishes Logi players for farmers exploiting some logi gear.
This part Quote:We also plan to implement a cool down timer on how often WP can be earned. makes me wonder. All I can say is if such a mechanic is implemented it better be universal otherwise it'll come as another nerf to every Logi player.
/Adopts "wait and see" stance |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.28 01:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
nudging this to the top, make sure the state of Logi gear isn't getting lost in the shuffle. :) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.31 00:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Just reported another possible exploit, hopefully we can get these bugs fixed and then start the process of getting a new system in place with properly rewards Logi's for their contribution on the field and for use of higher tier gear.
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.31 11:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
Free Healing wrote:Good read Cross. I like your solution to the Repair Tool problem. I currently use the Triage Repair Tool anyway since it heals my team much quicker to keep us in the thick of things. Plus the quicker I heal them the quicker i can get back to gunning the enmey down. On that note though.
Do you think it would be appropriate for CCP to adapt that mechanic (High Meta Level = More WP Gained Per Cycle) to other peices of equipments like NanoHive's and Nanite Injectors?
In repsonse to the fact that Armor Repair Nanohives effectively net you less WP despite the ISK you paid i have a few random suggestions i'd like your opinion on:
Timed Hives - Nanohives opperate based on a timer instead of just sitting around and reward a flat rate of SP while at least one Member of your team stands inside it (excluding you.) An example would be that you drop the hive it lasts for 15 seconds (random number) and it rewards you 5 WP for every second it's active and a player is inside it. Max Potential Gain = 70 WP/ Minimum Potential Gain = 0 WP. High Meta levels could breed longer lasting Hives for more potential WP gain.
Pluse Hives - Nanohives that opperate awarding you points everytime a Player is given ANY kind of bonus and gives said bonuses in a set order. Such as a Nanohive that is designated by the system to restore Armor first and THEN ammo or Ammo First and THEN armor. I'm not sure if i'm explaining it well. When a player walks into a Nanohive they're hit with a burst of light. That burst, or pulse, gives them ammo, which rewards the person that placed the Hive. Current Hives give you Ammo and Armor at the same time. This would, however, give you a designated bonus first, and then the secondary bonus. Your character would be awarded say 5 WP for every pulse it took to restock/repair them. High Meta Level = More and Quicker Pulses.
Seperate Hives - Nanohives would work much in the same way as they do now. Only sperate Ammo Restock Hives from Armor Repair Hives alltogether.
Thoughts?
Keep the faith.
I do indeed think that it would be appropriate for CCP to use a baseline of effective WP gain being higher for High Meta Level gear. As an example of what I mean by "effective" take the Proto AR vs the Milita AR. The literal WP award from either is the same +50 for a Kill +25 for an assist. However the effective awards from a Proto are higher than a Milita because it's function enables the Merc using it to get more kills and assists more rapidly.
There may be many ways to go about establishing that effective increase in WP when using HIgh Meta gear but I most certainly do think it should be there (who would use a Dropship or a Tank if the potential rewards from doing so were equal to that of a Milita AR?).
In the case of Logi War Points I've tried to follow the method CCP seems to already have in place.
Rep Tools give WP per cycle, therefore increase cycle time on High Meta gear and alter amount repaired per cycle. Net HP repaired remains the same but WP awarded scales properly to remain constant (i.e. you gain the same amount of WP per HP repaired with a High Meta as with the Milita).
Injectors Award additional WP based on the amount repaired beyond the Milita grade. Again this keeps the value of a Revive equal throughout, and also maintains the value of WP per HP repaired.
Nano Hives These are slightly more complicated since the do several different things but I think the easy solution is to 'work backwards'. CCP already has the code to define how quickly a Hive is consumed by resupplying someone (be that ammo, grenades, HP, etc). So they could simply define the max number of WP a hive should award and set it's consumption ratios to match. 1 Grenade = 1 Clip = X HP respired. Then it's just a matter of each "tick" consuming one 'charge' out of the Hive until there are no more charges left. (this seems much like your 'pules' hive idea).
Summery for the TL;DR (aka lazy) crowed.
When running with a squad I, like you, still use the best gear I can to support my guys, as I'm sure most Logis do.
But our willingness to "take one for the team" doesn't make the current system of rewarding the use of Milita gear over the use of Proto gear, any more sensible.
Investment of SP & ISK into the use of High Meta gear should not result in diminished rewards.
Cheers,
Cross
ps ~ Free Healing, thanks for your response. I'll re-read your ideas for the Nano Hive after I've had some more sleep and provide you with a more direct reply then. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.02 05:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
VADOL II wrote:ugg reset wrote:If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way The point is that by using the cheaper gear you actually get more WP. Militia Rep will take more cycles to bring full armor, more cycles means more WP, hence incentivizing the use of cheaper gear.
I've added bold to the quote above on the key area.
To set this out in terms that those who don't run Logi can understand, picture this.
You spend your Skill Points into gun skills, you invest heavily in the Assault Rifle path, and bam you get kills faster... reducing the number of War Points you earn for kills/assists
...doesn't make much sense, does it?
Also having the milita gear grant a higher WP return over the Proto gear means that it incentivises farming over legit play.
I've been saying that since last build, and this build the farming got so bad that they turned off all WP on the Rep Tool.
Now that's a hotfix and I support CCP putting a stop to the farming, but it's time to move beyond and hotfix and address the original problem which is that the WP awards system for Logi is scaled improperly, it's cost v benefit rewards more WP to the milita gear while costing less in both ISK and SP.
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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.04 20:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cannot tell if trolling or serious...
ugg reset wrote:sic the Whole point is to keep your teammate alive so that they can get more WP.
...but I'll respond to the idea in a serious manner.
The whole game is based on Risk vs Reward, so let's do a quick comparison.
Assault Rifles (example case, works for all weapons)
Item Risk Reward
Militia 630 ISK: Dmg 30 HP; RoF 750 RPM; Accuracy 56; Clip 48; Max ammo 300; Reload 3.5 S;
Duvolle 77,720 ISK Dmg 52.2 HP; RoF 789.5 RPM, Accuracy 57.1; Clip 30, Max ammo 300, Reload 3.0 S,
Weaponry 1
AR Operation 5
AR Prof. 1
Benefit of use: The enhanced Damage, Rate of Fire, Accuracy, and Reload time all contribute to faster/more kills and assists. This protects your ISK investment by increasing your odds of survival (a dead hostile isn't killing you) and gives you higher War Point awards per match thus leading to a faster skill progression (SP awards are derived from WPs gained).
Now looking at the Logi Equipment
Drop Uplink
Item Risk Reward
Militia 1,240 ISK Max Active 1; Carried 2; Spawn time mod 0.0 %; Spawns per unit 10;
Imperial 31,760 ISK Max Active 2; Max Carried 3; Spawn time mod -20%; Spawns per unit 20;
Electronic 4
Drop Uplink 5
Nanite Injector
Item Risk Reward
Militia 690 ISK Armor repair on revival 30.0 %;
Proto 25,580 ISK Armor repair on revival 80%;
Electronics 3
Nanocircutry 5
Nanohive
Item Risk Reward
Militia 480 ISK Max Active 2; Carried 2; Nanite Clusters 64; Range 4 M; Ammo Resupply rate 15%;
Flux 25,920 ISK Max Active 2; Carried 3; Nanite Clusiters 76; Range 7.7 M; Ammo Resupply rate 22.5%
Electronics 3
Nanocircuitry 5
Repair Tool
Item Risk Reward
Militia 620 ISK Rep on suits 25 HP/S; Rep on Vehicle 75 HP/S; Range 15M; Targets 1;
Triage 33,320 ISK Rep on suits 43 HP/S; Rep on Vehicle 78 HP/S, Distance 21M, Targets 2
Mechanics 1
Remote Repair Systems 5
Benefit of use:
Drop Uplink
The enhanced number of active links, Rate of Spawn, and Spawns per link all contribute to faster/more spawns. This gives higher War Point awards per match thus leading to a faster skill progression (SP awards are derived from WPs gained).
Conclusion: The Drop Uplink is inline with the baseline established by the AR.
Nanite Injector
There is no increase in either Accuracy or Rate of Revival, thus zero effective net gain over use of the Militia variant.
Further the Proto version restores more armor at the same WP gain as the Militia version thus transferring repair of that armor from a WP gaining activity (use of the Repair Tool) to a non WP gaining activity (use of the Proto Injector).
Conclusion: The Injector is converse to the baseline established by the AR. Use of higher Risk gear results in an effective net decrease in Reward.
Nanohive
The increase in carried, clusters, range and rate lead to an increase in War Point awards, the Flux is in line with the baseline established by the AR. The problem rather is with the armor repairing variants like the K17/Z which suffer not only from lower stats (to balance their ability to repair armor) but faster depletion rates for armor repair as compared to ammo resupply, while both activity's grant the same WP.
Conclusion: Repper variant Nanohives need a rework to be in line with the AR. Other variants seem to employ a proper Risk vs Reward progression.
Repair Tool
The Repair Tools enhanced HP repped per second results in a net decrease to War Points earned as WP awards are derived from Repair Tool cycles rather than actual HP repaired. None of the other attributes of the higher Meta tool mitigate the effects of this baseline decrease in WP earning potential.
Conclusion: The Repair Tool is converse to the baseline established by the AR. Use of higher Risk gear results in an effective net decrease in Reward.
Summery
Those equipment modules listed above which deviate from the established Risk vs Reward baseline provided by weapons need to be reworked such that they are brought into line (i.e. balanced) with the baseline case.
Cross
ps ~ ensuring this Risk vs Reward progression is fully implemented game wide will reduce the frequency and effect of farming exploits. (Note: I said reduce not eliminate.)
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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.05 11:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
bump for the healers |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.07 04:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Does anyone see a logical flaw in [/i]Post #63[/i] above or have a managed to formulate something which make sense not just to Logi's but also to those who haven't tried their hand at the role?
To wit; the War Point awards scaling for Logi equipment should be kept in line with that of weapons like the Assault Rifle
(Please see post above for details)
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.08 00:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:ugg reset wrote:If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way Thank you, why should logistics get more points for better gear? No one else gets more points for better stuff why should we? I wish the SP was passive so this thread would be pointless.
Read my post directly above yours, and Post #63 to which it refers. The current system does give an effective increase in War Point awards to 'killer classes' as you use better gear, it gives a lower potential War Point gain to 'medic' classes for investment of Skill Points and ISK into higher level gear.
The proposal of this thread is to bring the War Point award mechanics for Logi in line with those of someone using an Assault Rifle. If you have an objection to those two aspects of Dust scaling in an equitable parallel manner please provide specific details as to why.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.08 00:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:Cross Atu wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:ugg reset wrote:If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way Thank you, why should logistics get more points for better gear? No one else gets more points for better stuff why should we? I wish the SP was passive so this thread would be pointless. Read my post directly above yours, and Post #63 to which it refers. The current system does give an effective increase in War Point awards to 'killer classes' as you use better gear, it gives a lower potential War Point gain to 'medic' classes for investment of Skill Points and ISK into higher level gear. The proposal of this thread is to bring the War Point award mechanics for Logi in line with those of someone using an Assault Rifle. If you have an objection to those two aspects of Dust scaling in an equitable parallel manner please provide specific details as to why. 0.02 ISK Cross I say just keep it action based. the more you use it the more points you get. All the logi equipment dose the same thing higher tier stuff just does it better. ya repair tools get the short end of the stick but its an easy fix; give them the same amount of points for each tool but better tools get points faster.
What you have said above is, in fact, the goal of this thread. Simply to fix the Logi Equipment so that it gains WP/SP in the same manner as the AR et al (i.e. so the better equipment gives the user the opportunity to earn points faster).
I'm glad through discussion we've found ourselves to be on the same page
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.09 18:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
Since I've seen no less than two other threads relating to this issue on the first page of the forums (feedback and general) I figured it was time to bring this back to the top.
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Posted - 2012.11.15 20:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Valmar Shadereaver wrote:i use my best suit fit on most map's 3-5 time's (causing huge isk sink if enemy lucky overkill's -.- )
so im runing around whit 80% revive and advanced repair tool most of the time sure if i revive ppl they dont die as fast as other's and require less repair keeping me firing faster and longer doesent change the fact most time's some asaulth bluebery run's in and revive's the guys whit is militia nanite injecter causing the longer repair need and posible redown on it
are you going to tell the new player's or asaulth oriented guys to put points in something they dont wanne role in? im just hapy geting picked up if the enemy's are dead wich sadly over halve of the time there are no triage's nearby and 25% of the time's there is they dont even bother picking you up either they forget they got the nanite injecter (highly doubt this cause you only see down icon's whit the injector) unless they are inside a vechical in wich case you dont see the downed icon's on the minimap
even if ppl start using the beter gear its highly unlickly that asaulth type player's wanne waste there sp on a suportive non combat increasing skill's even less cause they have to remove one of there beter item's to make CPU/PG requirdment for the beter nanite's
The goal isn't to force anyone to use the better gear. The goal is the make the better gear worth using on all fronts (i.e. spending Skill Points and ISK to use better gear shouldn't cause a net loss in key results).
As to telling new players to use higher meta hives/injectors/tools. Once they're fixed so I can honestly say they're a better value to use then yes I do plan to post a thread in the training forum explaining the virtues of each piece of equipment and it's progression up the meta 'ladder'.
As to assault players running triage equipment, I applaud those who do but I certainly don't expect it. After all it's not the primary focus of their battlefield role. However giving Logistics Players a real motive (beyond pure altruism) to run the best gear, now that is something I'd like to see. 
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.18 11:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bump for the healers. |
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Posted - 2012.11.18 20:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
IgniteableAura wrote:I feel its better if CCP fixes it RIGHT, rather than using the easy way out. The original OP is a great short term solution, but doesnt fix the problem.
Awarding points for amount repaired is the most effective way of awarding the logibros. Cycles should not matter as there are many times that a "cycle" doesnt even complete and you still rep the heavy in front of you......because thats your job.
If its based on cycle, it will just make logis wait until a specific threshold is made.....say half armor, before they start repping to get the full WP gain. Also losing locks and breaking your cycle is a major problem with the cycle mechanic.
Agreed on the injectors providing wp on the amount of armor they provide.
I fully agree that having a static WP award per HP repaired mechanic is the ideal solution, the OP is presented as an alternative if for some mechanical reason CCP cannot/will not do away with the "cycle" system.
The other benefit of having an established WP to HP repped ratio is that it would make balancing nano hives (specifically the repppers, but by extension all of them) easier as well, and would align directly with scaling the nano injectors.
Thus it would establish a uniform baseline for equipment and allow the choice to be made based on player preferences and situational tactical value as opposed to "which is least broken" as the current system does.
Thanks for your response
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.25 18:29:00 -
[32] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:This still needs to happen. Hopefully it will when repair tool war points are back.
+1
My thoughts as well, I'd expect this next build or the build after. Until then (or until an update confirms it's coming) I'll keep this thread alive to be sure the idea doesn't get lost in the shuffle. |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.11.30 06:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote:Please have something up for next build.
I feel good healing up my bros (and my sisters), but I get that hole inside when I know I could've earned more had I not been healing.
Agreed, I really hope that the new and improved Repair Tool (complete with War Point awards) made it into this upcoming build.
I still run my Repair Tool even now, but it is a bitter sweet affair and I can't seem to bring myself to invest any SP into better reppers. |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.12.04 02:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
VADOL II wrote: While not entirely relevant to this thread, I would like to see reppers that do more than the Triage variant. It would be nice to be able to deal out nearly as much repair as incoming DPS. Perhaps and Adv Proto Rep that does 2x Triage.
As mentioned the LAV has some great potential, however in response to the infantry Repair Tool variegation you're talking about what if it had a 'buildup + overheat' mechanic ah la the Laser Rifle.
The idea would be that this Repair Tool could actually put out enough HP/sec in repairs to counter incoming weapon DPS, however since there would still be lock-on time, and there would be an upper limit to consecutive repping due to the overheat, there would be more player skill and battlefield awareness.
I really like the idea you are proposing, giving Logi's the tools required to counter incoming damage raises their viability to be comparable with the assault classes in a firefight. Adding an overheat mechanic maintains balance, promote player skill, and increase tactical depth. You'd have to employ battlefield awareness to know when and where the tool is best employed, compare the situational benefits of Repper vs Weapon and weigh the cost benefit ratio of increased effect vs overheat damage and delay.
This style of Repair Tool fits nicely within the planned "superpowers" modules CCP has announced they're pursuing and with the Laser Rifle as a template should be relatively easy to implement. This also has the added benefit of giving increased diversity within the Adv./Prototype range thus providing additional incentive to level up the related support skills and more options for player creativity in developing fittings.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2012.12.11 20:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
VADOL, I think the "active" Repair Tool idea deserves it's own thread (linked here as well of course =) ).
I was planning to start one up but it's your idea so I want to give you first crack at it if you'd like. Just let me know if you'd rather post the thread yourself or if I should go ahead.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.12.14 17:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
VADOL II wrote:Go ahead Cross. I somehow think that you would be better with the wording. Thanks for asking. :-)
:Looking back at my posts I am not sure if I explained my thought very well here. I think I did a better job in corp chat/forums.
Giving a Rep tool that you can 'Overheat' to bring forward vast healing numbers. Make it in tune with the Lasr Rifle, ie: Heat up, Cool down, Overheat shuts it down for a time. Would need it to be a lvl V Reap tool, with some skill (possibly already in play) that reduces the heat up or speeds cool down. I just want to be able to keep a single heavy from going down in a fight, let me at least match the DPS of an AR
Excellent, will do, and once again great idea |
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Posted - 2012.12.18 09:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
Thanks to ugg reset for posting the relevant section of the Chromosome patch notes.
Alright folks we have two things cooking with the arrival of Chromosome.
1st is to test the new Repair Tool, both to see how the current WPs are working (and check for buts) but also to see how the Repair Tool cycles effect awards within the new system. (Note: We need to focus heavily on the UI aspect of the cap window, such limitations need to be clearly communicated in real time to the players they are effecting)
2nd is to keep this thread generally active and reiterate the needed changes as the exist within the context of the new build.
Cheers all, I'll see you on the battlefield 
Cross
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Posted - 2012.12.19 21:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Chromosome
-Updated the repair tool rewards to encourage players to act as 'Combat medics' and prevent them from being exploited
* Added Triage reward - an assist if you are repairing a friendly and that friendly gets a kill
+25 War Points per 'tick'
* Added Guardian reward - you receive rewards when repairing a friendly who has damaged an enemy within x seconds
+35 War Points per 'tick'
* Added a WP cap window - if a player scores more than X amount of WP within Y amount of time then there is a cool-down timer until they can score again
WP cap window approximate amount is 150 War Points. Time window still undermined.
Also of note the in game mechanics seem to award for actions with the names swapped from those listed in the patch notes above. (i.e. Guardian for repping a unit that gets a kill, Triage for repping a friendly who has damaged an enemy with x seconds. Number of seconds still undermined).
Still looking for additional data points on the new Repair Tool system, please contribute your findings.
Initial impressions; current iteration of the Repair Tool WP award system within Chromosome improves is a step forward, possibly even resolving the prior issues with the Repair Tool awards system. It's changes do not however alter the Repair Tool - Nano Injector dynamic, and as such the Nano Injector still requires a fix to provide proper awards scaling.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.12.22 08:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
Please stop by this thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=48258&find=unread
it's worth commenting on. I've quoted the OP below as it provides additional info relevant to considerations of Logi/Equipment balance and function.
Cheers,
Cross
Aeon Amadi wrote:Repair Tools a. Stable variants do not have reduced CPU/PG needs, as par their description.
b. Same stats as normal repair tool, no benefit to using them. c. Higher price than normal repair tool. d. Has no advanced or prototype models. a. Inert variants have no visible information on it's effect on Installations.
b. Has no prototype model. a. 'Fractal' Performs better than -ALL- other variants.
b. Lower skill requirement than 'Schizm'. c. Lower aurum cost than 'Schizm'. d. No ISK equivalent. Axis variants do not have a standard or prototype model.
Flux variants do not have an advanced model.
Triage variants do not have an advanced model.
Drop Uplinks a. Stable variants do not reduce CPU/PG needs, as par their description.
b. Same stats as normal uplink, no benefit to using them. c. Higher price than normal uplinks. d. Does not have an advanced model. 'Dawnpyre' should require advanced level skills, not standard.
a. Imperial uplink has no obvious benefit over Ishukone Gauged.
b. Costs twice as much as Ishukone Gauged. a. 'Abyss' Carthum uplink performs better (at spawn time) than -ALL- other variants.
b. Performs worse (at spawns) than -ALL- other variants c. No ISK equivalent. Flux variants do not have a prototype model.
Gauged variants do not have an advanced model.
Quantum variants do not have a prototype model.
Nanohives a. Compact variant claims that it repairs armor.
b. Does, in fact, repair armor. c. Does NOT indicate such with the (R) symbol on it's name. d. No advanced or prototype models. Normal variants do not have a prototype model.
a. Stable variants do not reduce CPU/PG needs, as par their description.
b. Same stats as normal nanohive, no benefit to using them. c. Higher price than normal nanohive. d. No advanced or prototype models. a. Flux variants should have a larger field than Triage variants.
b. No standard or advanced models. Gauged variants do not have an advanced model.
Quantum variants do not have a prototype model.
a. Triage variants do not have a standard model.
b. Have no visible information on it's affect on armor repair rate(s). c. Prototype model does not have higher CPU/PG needs like the advanced model. a. (R) Variants have no standard or prototype models.
b. Have no visible information on it's affect on armor repair rate(s). |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.12.26 19:31:00 -
[40] - Quote
A couple of questions for my fellow Logi's
- Has anyone gotten both awards from the new system from repairing vehicles? I have only gotten the Guardian (i.e. points from a kill made while being repaired) award.
- In your assessment does the new awards system resolve or maintain the "cycle" issues with War Point awards from previous builds?
Cheers,
Cross |
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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.12.27 19:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
bump, please check out the above post, still waiting for additional feedback from other Logi's |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2012.12.30 21:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
Free Healing wrote:Cross Atu wrote:A couple of questions for my fellow Logi's
- Has anyone gotten both awards from the new system from repairing vehicles? I have only gotten the Guardian (i.e. points from a kill made while being repaired) award.
- In your assessment does the new awards system resolve or maintain the "cycle" issues with War Point awards from previous builds?
Cheers, Cross Cross i have not recieved any "Triage" bonus for repairing a Tank or LAV but i have also gotten the Guardian. In an unrealted note. I have a theory about the Cycles about the repairing of Dropsuits and Repair tools. I don't actually think it's based on how many cycles at all. I think it might be based on how much % of a Dropsuits Armor HP you repair. I could be wrong but i'll share my experience. I had been playing an Ambush match on Ashland mostly using my completely free fitting that included a Militia Repair Tool and had been getting a stable amount of WP off of the blueberries around me. After a while i noticed that the battle was leaning heavily in our favor but a Militia HAV had come in and was trying to move on us. Since the Supply Depot was nearby i decided to switch to my expensive fit that had Packed AV grenades and my Triage Repair Tool. As i was waiting for the Tank to get close enough for me to use my Grenades, i noticed a friendly scout was nearby with next to no armor and proceeded to repair them, upon which i noticed +25 appearing rapidly on my screen. I managed to count how many i had gotten and it totaled 4 Counts for a total of 100 WP. A little later i stumbled upon a friendly heavy who was being assaulted and managed to get my Repair Tool on him just before he was about to die and got 25 Points for Triage and 35 points for Guardian. Once the enemy was dead the Heavy was at about 1/4 of his health (This heavy was a Type 1 since he had a lot of armor.) and by the time he was fully repaired i had gotten a total of 5 Triage and 1 Guardian off of him for the whole time. Since the Heavy was being assaulted before it could be said that i repaired him for 5/4 of his health which is why i got a 5th Triage Award. It's my believe that since i got 4 Counts and a Scout and again about 4 Counts on a Heavy (only the heavies counts appeared much slower) That the amount of Triage Awarded is based on a percentage of Armor HP restored to the target rather than how long you are actually repping the target. I need more data for it to be conclusive though. Keep the faith.
Very interesting.
I too have gotten only Guardian awards from HAVs so it's sounding like an undocumented feature.
Regarding repair cycles,
Your data does seem to indicate the conclusions you've outlined, and I'll need to do more testing/pay more attention because the awards ratio you've described isn't in line with what I've been observing in my own matches.
Most recently I played several Ambush matches today on the "new Manus Peak", the small version.
I was in "the bowl" and thus mercs in need of repairs were plentiful, I repaired a Type-A Scout suit from 70% (30% armor remaining) and gained only a single Triage award. In the same fight I repaired a Heavy (I'm unsure of type) and picked up ~5-6 Triage awards. On earlier maps I've also gotten 6 awards from repairing a single Heavy, which is in fact how I assessed the numeric value of the cap because that's when I stopped gaining points.
I'll do another round of testing and post back with further data, it seems as if perhaps there's a factor somewhere that we're missing.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.05 23:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
We are now in Chromosome and both Repair Tools and Nano Injectors still reward a player more for running pure militia equipment than for running anything better. In point of fact the effective potential rewards of actions are lowered with each step up in Meta level.
The present iteration is a converse to the balance of other classes/fits of gear in which higher Meta leads to higher potential/effective earnings. The net effect of this double standard is to at best encourage an entire play type to not bother with investing in many related Skill and Gear aspects of the game, and at worst to possibly create a disparity in overall progression.
CCP, this disparity in balance needs redress.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.09 21:44:00 -
[44] - Quote
Considering the impending move (and final wipe) a fix for the problems highlighted in this thread becomes all the more pressing.
CCP, please consider/confirm a rework of the Revival/Repair awards mechanics to help them normalize with the Meta progression present in other aspects of the game.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.12 17:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
bump |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.15 00:59:00 -
[46] - Quote
Anyone else have additional changes/information to report since the wipe? |
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Posted - 2013.01.16 18:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
Important changes are important.
Still waiting on a "our team is looking into this" or "SOONtm".
I'm perfectly content to be patient about these improvements but the issues they address are too important to leave in obscurity. |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.19 20:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
bump |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.21 19:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
Still looking for a Dev statement regarding the inverse rewards potential of the Equipment line. |
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Posted - 2013.01.23 22:35:00 -
[50] - Quote
Wei Ghjuvan wrote:Just necro bumping this thread as it needs to be fixed
^This |
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Posted - 2013.01.25 18:32:00 -
[51] - Quote
Logistix Delux wrote:I agree. There isn't ever a situation where-in the rewards for using lower quality gear should exceed those offered by using higher quality gear. The point of DUST is to manage Risk v. Reward. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. The current implementation does not fit this paradigm.
Well said, thank you for boiling down the crux of the matter so effectively.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.26 11:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
The deincentivization of higher Meta restorative gear continues to be an active issue. |
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Posted - 2013.01.27 18:53:00 -
[53] - Quote
^I reiterate the above. |
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Posted - 2013.01.30 06:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
bump |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.30 06:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
Patoman Radiant wrote:Or...... have it be based on every 100 health repaired
and have the advanced nanite injectors work faster
I'm not sure what you mean by having the nano injectors work faster, they're basically instant (assuming you don't get the blasted targeting bug ).
Would you mind elaborating on this a bit more to clarify what you're suggesting?
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.01.31 17:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
XINERA XIOS wrote:I think he means that the stand up time, should be shortend by higher gear injectors.
I would like them to stand up faster, too :)
That would be nice, CCP are you getting this bit down?
Thanks for posting Xinera.
Cheers,
Cross
EDIT: It's worth mentioning however that while this idea would be great it would not address the current broken mechanics regarding WP awards for restorative equipment as higher meta injectors would still give a lower potential for WP gains. |
Cross Atu
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Posted - 2013.02.01 17:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
Persistent issue still persists. |
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Posted - 2013.02.06 02:47:00 -
[58] - Quote
Agreed the cycle mechanic needs to be improved. |
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Posted - 2013.02.08 18:44:00 -
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To Recap:
Currently Repair Tools award via a "cycle" rather than based on the actual amount, thus causing situations (in addition to the "cap") where the player gains no reward for the repairs provided to fellow Mercs. This situation occurs more frequently with the higher grade Repair Tools thus causing a net loss of potential gains if gear better than Militia is used. The reduction in possible WPs earned when more ISK & SP are invested is antithetical to general awards methods in Dust and discourages the use of quality Repair Tools.
Nanoinjectors currently grant a single blanket award regardless of Injector cost or meta level. The higher ISK & SP cost Injectors restore the revived Merc with more health on revive, this effectively causes the user to 'repair' the revived Merc without receiving any WP for their efforts.
The combined effects of these mechanics result in it being more beneficial for players not to spend SP or ISK on any version of these equipment mods above Militia.
Please CCP change these mechanics so that when new Logi Mercs ask me for guidance in the Training Grounds I'm able to advise them in optimal ways to invest their SP into being a Logi rather than warn them away from spending SP which won't actually help them develop/progress their character.
Cheers,
Cross
ps ~ Injector targeting is much better so thank you for that there are still however times when a body is unable to be targeted from right on top of it, and instances where use of the injector (full "stick" animation and sounds etc.) does not result in a revive even after several activations. It would be great to have these wrinkles smoothed out |
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Posted - 2013.02.09 22:32:00 -
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Hi, first off thanks for posting second I welcome debate on the subject so please understand that where I disagree with you below it's not meant as "the final word" do feel free to respond.
J Lav wrote:I'm going to go ahead and rock the boat on this. I am a Logi player, and I use medium level kit at this point, since I don't have the SP for better.
Regarding the Repair Gun:
Better repair = more cycles in the long run, hence more WP. This is because a militia repair gun will not keep a guy on his feet. So he dies, and you die trying to revive him. Costly mistake. Using the Triage gun instead keeps the guy alive longer, giving me more cycles and, more importantly, a better chance of winning the gunfight and the battle.
There are only very select situations in which you should have your Rep Tool out during a fire fight, one of the only consistent instances is if you are in cover and your squad is cycling in and out of cover as you rep them. Beyond that even the Proto repair tools will not out rep incoming dps so using the repair tool in this manner is a flawed tactic more often than not (side note, check out this thread for an idea which may change that: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=535799#post535799). The short answer is that when you're in the thick of things providing supporting fire for your squad is usually the tactically superior and thus increases your overall survival and that of our squad.
Even were that not to be the case doing as you describe is a play style not a base line., and as such does not effectively counter the weakness of the current mechanical iteration. Logi players should not be force to rep during a fire fight just to have the possibility of avoiding a lower potential WP gain from running gear that requires both ISK and SP to fit in the first place.
Quote:
Regarding the Injectors:
I see the same situation. How many revives you get doesn't really change, since reviving the guy is done for a few reasons - stay alive, save clones, keep pressure on, save kit and WP. WP should be the least of your concerns.
Injectors that give more armour make it more likely that they'll stay on their feet, and inversely you stay alive. So better injectors save you ISK and make it more likely to win the gunfight and the battle. Yes a militia injector gives more WP in repairing after the revive, but now you've both been standing around hoping not to get shot for 2 minutes.
Respectfully this is irreverent to the discussion at hand. All gear, weapons, dropsuits, fits etc. should be both tactically useful and properly rewarding. The above is a commentary on the tactical effectiveness of the equipment in question, the value of their function is not in doubt, their proper normalization within the WP rewards is.
This is relevant in a lager context than a single firefight or a single battle as WP earned effect gains in both ISK and SP thus weighting the development of that Merc. Thus any gear which underperforms the curve places an undue burden on it's user creating a mechanical imbalance within the game.
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So I see no reason to reward Logi players in a battle based on what kit they brought, rather than what they did in the game. Better kit should allow you to do more, creating more opportunities for reward. Changing the WP system on these would do just reward people for what they already could do. I think that to say that you want more reward for the better kit is really ignoring what that kit is for, and a silent bid for more ISK through an indirect source. This all just seems to be a side effect of people getting used to the game at present, which is just a grind for ISK and SP. When the game's scope is added later, I think this will make much more sense.
The reason to reward players based on the quality of their gear is game balance. "Slayer" roles gain a higher potential for WP earnings as they upgrade their gear, as long as that remains true (which it will as long as kills awards WP) the rest of the gear in game needs to be properly normalized to this progression else the mechanics of the game are imbalanced.
The real 'bite' of the imbalance I am addressing in this thread will not be seen very strongly in the present condition of the game, nor in the early stages of the game regardless of it's condition. It is the long term implications which are significant within this context, the one year, two year, etc benchmarks as other players who are equally skilled (player skill) in their chosen combat role steadily open a wider and wider gap beyond those who are working in a support role.
Dropships and Logi LAVs are both quite effective from a tactical standpoint but are much less frequently fielded and certainly cannot be said to be a self sustaining battlefield role as of the Chromosome build. While equipment is not as broken as either of those vehicle roles the same problem still applies just not as drastically.
Simply put, for a battlefield role to reach viable parity it must be rewarded in parity with the rest of the roles offered.
Game mechanics should not play favorites with player choice, to do so is by definition imbalance.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:32:00 -
[61] - Quote
Glad you like the thread, thanks for posting |
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Posted - 2013.02.11 03:35:00 -
[62] - Quote
^This |
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Posted - 2013.02.16 11:19:00 -
[63] - Quote
@CCP 72 Likes and counting, a "the issue where higher meta equimpent lowers potential WP gains has been noted and will be reworked in a future release" would be wonderful
@J Lav, I'm still planning to respond to you, sorry for the delay my attempts to test the new skill mechanics, the current Uplink mechanics, and keeping up with my efforts EVE side have kept me busy, apologies for the delay.
~ Cross |
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Posted - 2013.02.23 01:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
@J Lav
No worries about the quote, it was getting rather long
You are correct as the slayers progress the support roles are left further and further behind, and I am seeking redress for that trend. The problem, however, runs even deeper. It is not simply that the support roles lag behind but rather that the WP awards iteration on equipment actually has a negative delta to it's progression, making the investment of ISK and SP not simply underwhelming but actually a detriment to the potential WP gains of the player.
Note I do not dispute that some of the higher meta equipment has increased tactical value, however that servers to redress the disparity not at all because the Duvolle, Kaalakiota, Freedom, Viziam, et al also have increased tactical value. In the case of tactical merit there is a great deal more parity and this thread does not seek to address that aspect of their effects and scaling. To quote you from above
Quote:
It comes in other forms than more WP from the single action. It comes in victory, it comes in prolonged life and it comes in increased pressure on the battlefield and saving time.
This is true of all items in game (sans broken things like missile turrets), it is true across the entirety of the slayer role. However it is not true across the breadth of the support roles and that is improper.
I reiterate that this is not a question of tactical value but rather balance within the WP/SP/ISK earned by taking those tactically valuable actions. Allow me to emphasize the key point, players should not be rewarded more richly for preforming an action poorly than for preforming the same action well.
Reviving your teammates in better fighting form holds more value, is more effective, than reviving them with a sliver of health. The ability to revive them with 80% of their ehp intact (rightly) costs more ISK and SP to field, where it goes wrong is lowering the potential WP gains.
Looked at another way the flaw is this, if you take an action one way (healing X HP a teammate has lost) you gain 25-150 WP, if you take the same action another way (at greater personal cost in both ISK and SP) you gain nothing more than if you hadn't invested either SP or ISK into the action. This is not only imbalanced but also a detriment to overall game retention of players because it can create situations where players feel "cheated" by the mechanics of the game thus turning the rich depth of complexity provided by Dust into an adversary rather than an aspect to be enjoyed.
If you earn your WP from kills (as slayer roles do) and you spend the SP and ISK to field a better version of your chosen weapon you are rewarded with an increase in potential WP gains as your ability to earn those WP increases in rate.
If you spend the SP and ISK to field a better version of support equipment within your chosen build you are effectively punished by having your potential WP gains decrease. What rational can there possibly be for healing X number of HP via a rep tool awarding WP while healing X number of HP via an injector awards nothing?
The net effect of the current system is that fewer support players try to play with the best gear. Top notch support is vanishingly small in it's frequency and it is not due to player skill but rather failure of basic game mechanics.
Players who inspect the net effect of their gear are less likely to invest in gear that has an extra hidden cost, and the ones who do suffer under the ill effects of the mechanic (losing a more costly fit while having a lower chance of reward is detrimental to progression).
One closing note, a player who has properly skilled into a given class (to say nothing of training their personal battlefield awareness) cannot just "flip" to another class because they lack the fittings, SP support, and player know how to field that role. Game mechanics should not be stacked to favor one offered playstyle over another. Once the game has progressed long enough there will indeed be players who can flip through roles because they will have earned the SP required to do so, but we're not there yet and we won't be for some time to come. Even when we are there certain battlefield roles should not be rewarded on a higher baseline than others, War Points are an abstract indication of the value provided by the actions a given merc has taken within battle, thus rewarding the least effective method as much or more than the most effective is broken.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.02.23 19:52:00 -
[65] - Quote
Persistent flaw persists. |
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Posted - 2013.02.25 17:48:00 -
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Bojo The Mighty wrote:I'm going to help ya out here and agree.
For the first time I think ever, I was revived by a Wyirkomi Nanite Injector. That guy deserved both serious ISK and WP. So how about when you revive more expensive suits, you make more money?
That's an interesting idea that could find some place in the mix. If injectors kept track of the value of fits/gear restored (true value x %actually restored) there would be incentive to run the higher level injectors (increased ISK cost would be offset by increased chance of ISK reward). This could be tracked via a method similar to that used for tracking ISK destroyed in a match (which is already in use to calculate current rewards).
While this would likely be a sufficent redress for the injector alone it would still leave an issue for those running repair tools in that a higher level injector would still lower their total potential war point earnings (and thus their SP gains).
There may very well be a way around this however, the two thoughts I have off the top of my head are
A) start a (short) timer after a revive where the first "tick" of healing done with the repair tool earns a higher bonus than +25WP, thus giving players an incentive to fully repair those they revive, and also offset the lost potential gains.
B) Institute a scaled WP bonus for the injector but only when there is also a repair tool equipped. With an "ISK restored" award the only time a player would be losing out is when using an injector and repair tool in tandem, so the bonus could be tied to that specific situation.
To reiterate this is off the top of my head so likely needs refinement.
Thanks for posting
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.03.01 06:04:00 -
[67] - Quote
Threads still being created in relation to this issue, please CCP give us word that this broken mechanic is going to be addressed. I would love to respond to these threads with "SoonTM" rather than "it's currently broken".
An example of recent threads related to this subject: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=61144&find=unread
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.03.11 00:31:00 -
[68] - Quote
As I am still seeing new threads on this issue I'm posting here to put it back on top in an attempt to consolidate feedback in one place.
Again I'd like to reiterate that a simple post from CCP stating "issue as been added to our backlog" would be more than adequate. I realize this is a beta and there may very well be more important things for development run time at this present moment, the request being made is simply for an acknowledgement that the issue exists and will be addressed in due time.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.03.11 17:38:00 -
[69] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Solution to this problem would be to remove WP.
Came to thread expecting an idea of joining injector and repper into one tool and giving logistics suit a substantial bonus to their efficiency.
I can agree to the removal of WP from this gear of WP for kills is also removed. Otherwise the idea simply takes a broken mechanic and brakes it further. |
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Posted - 2013.03.11 18:12:00 -
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Moonracer2000 wrote:I have a different point of view in regards to the repair tool rewards that I have been meaning to share. I am usually a very active logi so I tend to keep very busy repairing, reviving and resupplying. Regardless of if I uses the militia or the triage repair tool I end up repairing people long after I stop receiving warpoints. I would say it is not rare to only be rewarded for maybe 1/3 of the repair work I do using the triage repair tool.
So part of this post is a question to others. If I am healing past the point of receiving points regardless of the quality tool used, am I not receiving the same amount of points in total?
The OP was written before the "bumper LAV" skill farming issue that caused CCP to alter (i.e. cap) the repair tool rewards mechanic so some aspects of it are a bit dated. And within some contexts you are indeed correct the net change under the new system will be essentially zero. However it's a complex system now where rewards are temp capped on a timer, they are not awarded at all unless the merc being repped has agressed a hostile target within X time (on a separate timer) and deaths (specifically your own) reset your cap timer.
With so many variables in place the most consistent way to maximize repair points is to revive those who've just fallen in a afire fight (with a militia injector) and repair them on scene before their aggression timer can run out (using a militia repair tool). This is sadly situating the most effective playstyle for WP gain in direct opposition to the most effective tactical playstyle (use of best injector + tool with an emphasis on repairing and reviving outside of direct lines of fire to ensure full combat readiness prior to re-engagement)
Quote:
Back to my idea, I would actually like to see a smaller reward per repair tick over a longer period. The result would be a more consistent reward as players repaired armor. I realize that idea wont be popular since some people might get fewer points, and that's fine, but I think it would be a more balanced system with less confusion from new players and more reward for dedicated healers.
I'm not sure I completely follow your suggestion here, would you mind delving into it in further detail I'd like to understand what you're proposing I look forward to hearing more from you on this subject.
Quote:
I am not opposed to better rewards from better equipment but I don't see that happening. The logistics class is already ridiculously good at accumulating warpoints for the work we do.
I'm not really sure I agree with this assessment as when considered in full context a comparably spec'ed and fitted Logi will require more SP/ISK invested than the other infantry classes (with Heavy being a possible exception depending on particulars). In short greater risk leading to greater potential reward seems to be the name of the game in D514 so I'm not sure where you're drawing the conclusion that the curve is broken.
Unless of course we include the way that equipment currently rewards for use of militia gear more highly than for use of upper tier gear, at that point the curve most certainly is broken giving the logi class a leg up over others when comparing pure militia fits and causing the logi to lag behind once progressed beyond the realm of meta 0 gear. Addressing this disparity is ultimately the purpose of this thread.
There is one thing that I feel needs clearing up however (as the OP was written under a very different iteration of the game)
the goal of this thread is to provide a proper progression of WP rewards for equipment based actions. It is not to simply increase the overall WP gains of those using equipment.
An example for illustrative purposes (not meant to be the specifics of an actual fix, only to highlight the intent)
Peg current repair points to the value of HP restored rather than cycles (this allows WP to be earned at a scaled rate linked to the meta level of the tool used, tho it lacks a consideration of guardian points)
Tie nano injector rewards to the meta level (and over all hp restored) of the injector used with the current standard WP awards being tied to the 50% restoration KIN-012 Nano Injector. (Leaving the 30% Injectors awarding less and the 80% injectors rewarding more).
The specifics of all such rewards on both pieces of equipment would require some tuning to properly balance. But to reiterate again the goal is not to raise the average WP gains offered by equipment, the goal is to normalized those gains with the other "slayer" WP awards (i.e. use of higher gear produces higher potential rewards).
In essence, all numbers aside, I'm asking CCP to determine to basic values.
- WP per HP repaired
- WP per revive (prior to HP restored being considered)
With these two values defined scaling both the repair tool and nano injector lines will be relatively simple, as will balancing the overall WP earnings provided by them at all levels.
Cheers (and thanks for posting )
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.03.11 18:39:00 -
[71] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Another option is partial WP reward for revive (like 25% of current), and then +10 WP every 5 seconds up to +40 WP if the subject survives for that long. Therefore you would have an interest in keeping them alive for at least that long. Just revivng players in fire wouldn't get you as much.
That is an angle I hadn't considered. The specific value of both base and ongoing WP awards would have to be tested (but hey what are betas for? ) however this could be a viable solution as it would indeed reward tactical play and use of better gear over 'farming' and use of militia gear.
Thanks for posting, I hope others will comment on this idea as well.
Cheers,
Cross
EDIT: @Kaze Eyrou sorry I missed your post before and in response; No, not that I know of and I certainly hope not. D514 is one of the better games I've played in awhile despite it's beta state and I attempt to keep my feedback tied to actual testing so it would be a shame if I've somehow gotten myself ignored for reasons unknown.
In full fairness to CCP while this thread remains unanswered despite it's weight several other issues I've raised have been addressed so perhaps in this case there are internal issues holding up an official Dev response. While I fully understand that can happen after seeing this issue persist through several builds it would be nice to get some blue response to it. |
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Posted - 2013.03.13 18:50:00 -
[72] - Quote
While we're waiting for more word (I'm hoping to hear back from Moonracer2000, and maybe even get some 'Blue Ink' in here) I'm linking and quoting another new thread that was just created relating to this subject. Note, not all aspects of the linked thread overlap with this one but much of the motive does even if the scope does not.
Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62084&find=unread
Brush Master wrote:I have seen some players confused over the WP gain on the repair tool, what is the time frame, how many point can you get in xx time frame, is there cap and so on. Personally I am fine with the limits and I am making an assumption that the fix that was implemented was just a hot fix and way to stop abuse from the previous builds. When you are repairing someone, especially a heavy that has taken a lot of armor damage, you get a good amount of satisfaction of reward for staying with that heavy till he is repaired. However, after you are done with the heavy, you turn to the guy beside him, he has damage as well, you repair him and you see no feedback from the system. The feeling is, well, disappointment? boredom? you understand the reasons why but you still want to have the feeling of gain. I would like to see the repair system upgraded to a diminishing returns over time layout. Where you see +25 for the first couple repairs, but as it reaches the timeframe cap the wp gain reduces to +10, +5, +2, +1 and at the cap +1 is the lowest it would go. Over time, the cap increase / the wp cool down goes back down and the process starts again. What are the benefits? well Logis are going to always feel like they are getting something, which is very important for anything that someone does. Hack a point, get wp, destroy something, get wp, heal something, I want the system to at least acknowledge the fact that something is being done and it's contributing to the success of the team. I am sure it's not an easy request, but please consider it for a future release. -Brush [email protected]
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Posted - 2013.03.14 01:17:00 -
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RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:So, I had commented in another thread about how months ago there was already a thread on repair tools... i had forgotten that this was it. This is still the defining area for arguments and discussion on the subject. However it is translated to other threads matters little as long as the information is still dispersed.
Increased wp for increased meta is acceptable, though i would first prefer just to get points for all of my reps, either way there needs to be a fix. Thanks Cross for this great thread.
Thanks Red, always glad to see your posts showing up be it in my threads or others
On a more general note, it has become clear to me that since I first types my OP the game as developed to a point where my ideas could use a rework so as to fully address the current state of things (and include ideas brought fourth by others in this thread). As such I'm beginning plans to move the OPs content into a "holding post" in the thread and type up a more current version of the OP. It has further become clear to me that an update in the title of this thread may be called for to more properly reflect the content.
I'd like to hear from the contributors to this thread regarding both title suggestions and specific areas that the new OP sure highlight. Please post back with suggestions (and where possible either quotes or post numbers) for highlighted areas.
The persistent problem addressed by this thread not only has the implications listed so far but also places an undo burden on players new to the game as it introduces more confusion and a dysnc with UI feedback into what is already a steep learning curve.
Hopefully a new clearer OP will aid in expediting a resolution to these issues for all parties involved.
My thanks to everyone who has participated in this topic
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.03.14 02:24:00 -
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@Moonracer2000, glad to see you back and no worries about the time frame
I pretty much agree with everything in the post you've just added. You've hit the heart of the matter, the inconsistency of reward for repairs is a problem. I believe the confusion surrounding the issue as it currently stands is compounded by there being inconsistency in both the method (cap, timer, qualifiers, et al) and rate (risk vs reward/meta scaling) of the rewards.
It seems to me that if method were addressed in a manner like what you propose, with some additional changes made to address rate as well that the present inconsistencies would be remedied. And while this would still leave newer medics earning on average less, to an extent that is a base mechanic of the game, that higher investment garners higher rewards.
Glad to see you back,
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.03.14 03:00:00 -
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Beren Hurin wrote:I think the solution should include all forms of logi though. We are just talking about dropsuit on dropsuit, but I think the whole matrix of repairs should have some comprehensive reward system. Repairing installations, vehicles, and vehicles repairing everything. There has to be a way to make it viable.
That's a good point as well, it's rare to see Logistics LAVs on the field and the lack of rewards for something so SP intensive (as much so as any other battlefield role and more than some) is on the same level with the Dropship or perhaps even a bit more restrictive.
Beyond that once the secondary (aka player) market goes live along with the ability to deploy assets such as buildings and buy/lose things like the MCC (to say nothing of the new gear which will likely give AV more teeth than it currently has) the full array of logistical support will become even more significant, as by extension will ensuring an evenhanded approach to rewarding it. Perhaps I can incorporate those aspects into my OP reboot, at the very least I shall make a note that they remain unaddressed.
Thanks for posting.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.03.21 20:09:00 -
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@Thrillhouse Van Houten, thanks for taking care of the thread while IRL concerns kept me away
I'll quote the OP below to save it's text as the OP reboot is coming very soon.
Cross Atu wrote:A problem currently confronting LogiBros is that the War Point system, as it stands, rewards use of the basic Repair tool over the use of the higher quality Repair Tools. This also bleeds over into Nano Injectors where use of the expensive and skill intensive Injectors awards only as many War Points as the milita gear. The two compound when considered together as the best War Point gain is garnered buy running the lowest quality injector and tool in combination. The solution for the Injectors is simple, scale the War Points awarded to account for the extra healing done beyond the base value to account for the extra amount repaired. Rep Tools are a little more complex. Part of their problem is that points are awarded at the end of a cycle rather than in real time, part is that each cycle awards the same amount of points, making Tools that heal more per cycle award fewer War Points for the same total amount repaired. A total overhaul of the system would be more development resource intensive so the solution proposed below attempts to avoid (what seem to be) the more resource intensive changes to the system in favor of (what seem to be) lighter tweaks, in hopes that I can help save CCP on the overhead. As such the best solution appears to be a two fold implementation; First tag the WP gain as higher for higher level gear. This could be done by applying a WP gain amount to each Rep Tool individually or more elegantly by using the Meta Level of the Tool to flag it's awards for a multiplier of some size (specific numbers to be determined by testing, but the goal would be WP awards in keeping with amount Repaired). Second, to avoid having to rework the whole Repair Tool system, reduce the War Point awards, time taken, and amount healed per rep cycle. This faster cycle eliminates the need for use of more advanced algorithms to track damage/rep streams, mitigates the problem with War Points being awarded at the end of the Repair Tool cycle, and allows for easier scaling of War Point awards between Tools of differing Meta Levels. The major drawback to this fix is that it might require a rework of the associated skill values to maintain their effects as intended but altering skill values seems like a lower resource investment than developing a new Rep/WP mechanic for Tools and Injectors. Fellow Logies, CCP, betas in general, please chime in with your feedback. Cheers, Cross EDIT: Executive summery
- Current iteration of Repair Tool and Nano Injector system mechanics reward the use of low Meta gear over the use of high Meta gear.
- The reward disparity for Repair Tool and Nano Injectors is magnified when the mechanics of the current iteration are considered in context.
- The fundamental flaws in the current mechanics are; 1) Tracking Repair tool cycles rather than amounts healed. 2) Tracking successful Nano Injector uses rather than amounts healed. (There are additional flaws but those two comprise the heart of the awards problem)
- Solve the above problems by tying War Point awards for Repair Tool and Nano Injector use to the Meta Level of the device used.
- In the case of Injectors simply scale the awards to account for the extra (above the effect of Meta 1 gear) health restored by the higher Meta Injectors.
In the case of the Repair Tool reduce the following attributes. War Point awards per cycle, cycle time, and amount healed per cycle. The new GÇÿmicroGÇÖ cycles for the Repair Tool can then be more readily scaled by Meta level to provide War Point awards appropriate to their effect. A simple method for scaling War Point awards would be Meta 1 multiplies total awards by a factor of 1, with each higher Meta level increasing the multiplier (specific amounts of increase to be determined by testing).
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Posted - 2013.03.21 20:50:00 -
[77] - Quote
The OP has been updated for Chromosome. |
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Posted - 2013.03.21 21:18:00 -
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Daedric Lothar wrote:All this Support increasing WP sounds awesome, makes it faster to call in Orbital Strike, but I think what CCP may be going for is trying to find ways to increase interactivity between Eve and Dust. Making it easier to call in NPC Orbitals makes it less likely to need any ships assistance.
I also think the focus is trying to get people into corps and fighting for planets and such. Corps and squads would already know the value of a good support player even above a good shooter. As for the leaderboards, yea sure all this sounds great.
This thread has nothing at all to do with the leaderboards. It is also (as explicitly stated at the start of the thread) not about asking for a "buff" it is an assessment of proper scaling. Again this thread is about War Point scaling not War Point buffing.
Having reiterated that, we can move on to your mention of Orbitals. You seem to misunderstand the way orbital support works. To call in either a Precision Strike from the MCC or an Orbital Bombardment from an EVE player in space both require a squad to collectively earn 2500 WP. Hence even if the goal of this thread were to increase overall WP awards on balance (which it is not) doing so would actually increase the possible frequency of interactions between EVE/Dust players.
Planetary Conquest is a key aspect of the game no doubt, and two fundamental parts of that (as well as the maintenance of any effective Corp) are tactical team play and ISK management. The current awards system for support actions is detrimental to both by mechanically making them adversarial goals. As it stands the present mechanics cause a zero sum choice between effective team play and effective Risk vs Reward management within support actions.
In essence the more you support your team the lower your own SP/ISK gains and the weaker your progression thus the less you're able to support your Corp in the long run. On the other hand if you focus on running fits effective for earning WP/SP/ISK then your tactics and fits are weaker for team support creating bad play habits, confusing new players and in the end still making you less capable of supporting your Corp. The player is, under the present iteration, put in a lose lose situation reducing fun, detracting from social interaction (hard to participate in a Corp if you can't properly pull your weight) and turning off many new players.
Finally to reiterate yet again, this thread has nothing to do with leaderboard concerns nor with players giving support actions their due, it is a thread about the mechanical implications of the currently broken system in place which makes the tactics of support play in direct conflict with the earnings of support play, when in fact tactics and earnings should be symbiotic rather than zero sum.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
841
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Posted - 2013.03.23 19:04:00 -
[79] - Quote
@The Robot Devil thanks for posting to the thread and adding to the discussion
I believe Thrillhouse covered the lions share of this but I want to take the time to define a few things in the hopes that my stance and intent will become more clear.
Tactical Benefits - Qualities or effects of a fitting/gear that contribute to the efficiency of a Merc preforming their role on the battlefield.
WP Benefits - The system by which WPs are (when properly balanced) earned for taking tactical actions with greater efficiency leading to greater potential rewards.
Note: WP benefits are key to the development of character SP & ISK. As such they must maintain parity across all battlefield roles or there is (in literal terms) an imbalance within the games mechanics.
Buffing vs Scaling - A request to buff WP awards is in essence a claim that the average potential WPs earned by a given class/role on the battlefield lags behind other possible roles. My request for better scalingdoes not assume that the average WP earnings are inadequate. Rather that their distribution across meta/SP investment levels improperly favors the use of Militia gear over Prototype gear by by lowering the potential WP earnings as the quality of gear increases.
Raw WP vs Potential WP - On first inspection WP awards for Revives and Kills are functionally identical as they pertain to earning WP, both granting a Raw WP award for each time you complete an action, one success equating to one award earned.
When we examine earnings Potential however a very different story emerges. As a weapon is upgraded it's efficiency increases providing more dps, ammo, range etc thus raising the potential rate at which kills can be made, and by extension increasing the potential earnings for the user (this is proper WP scaling, a greater player investment of SP and ISK results in the possibility of greater SP and ISK earned).
As an Injector is upgraded it's efficiency also increases but not in any way that speeds up it's use thus providing no increase in potential earnings. Further (as a direct inverse to the scaling of a weapon) the more effective an Injector is under the current system the less often it's use is called for thus lowing the potential earnings from it's use. (even without touching on the capping of WP earnings)
[Note: This same inverse in potential WP earnings applies to the Repair Tool as well, for the sake of brevity I'm omitting a repost of my analysts on that]
As a result the current system properly rewards 'slayer' actions with greater potential earnings as the efficiency of their role increases but improperly punishes 'support' actions with lower potential earnings as the efficiency of their role increases.
Wrap up
A fundamental aspect of creating a high quality game is having a responsive/effective UI. The UI most not only be responsive in terms of input from the player but also in terms of displayed output to the player, anything less results in frustration, decreased enjoyment of the games qualities and ultimately a lower average size/activity level for the player base. I have already spoken with so many players who are confused and frustrated by the current WP awards system that I've lost count. Most of the players I've spoken with think that what their experiencing is the result of a bug due to the beta state of the game and become even more agitated/frustrated when it's explained to them that the current system is working as intended. A properly polished game mechanic should not engender confusion and frustration within players who try to use it.
Another fundamental aspect of creating a high quality game is balance in the case of Dust this balance is twofold, risk vs reward and comparative rate of progression. If a given action, class, piece of gear, et al is mechanically inferior to the alternatives offered then one of two things happens: A) Players recognize this and the inferior element languishes unused decreasing game diversity and in a sense wasting the development resources spent on an unused feature.
B) Players don't recognize this and play less/quit the game due to the frustrations endemic to operating under the weight of unfair burdens.
The current war point mechanics applied to the 'medic' equipment items falls short on both of the above counts, it is neither balanced nor does is provided clear/proper UI feedback.
In closing I'd like to say that I do completely agree with you that the issue should stay open to ideas and discussion. Indeed I feel it must remain an active topic at least until CCP addresses the problematic elements created by the current system.
Cheers,
Cross
ps ~ In case it matters I didn't post this thread due to struggling as a Logi, it's easy enough to "game the system" when you understand the mechanics and even without relying on that I've been able to place in the top 4-5 in the match pretty consistently. As it stands the current system actually benefits me because it allows me to run cheap/free fits all the time while earning more than if I used high meta gear, and it reduces my competition for those Logi points as I know (more or less) when to stop repping/reviving to avoid spending time on actions which earn me zero SP or ISK.
If I were motivated by self interest I wouldn't have posted this thread to begin with, but I'd feel like a real kitten if I ignored the hardships inflicted on other players just so I could score a few WP easier.
[Note: My "ps" is NOT meant to be calling anyone out or as a backhanded insult, it is simply a statement of my own reasoning and motivation provided because there's been some recurring confusion on the subject throughout this thread.] |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
843
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Posted - 2013.03.25 23:35:00 -
[80] - Quote
New Equipment DevBlog is out
Once I get beyond all the awesome that is new content being added to the game my interest is drawn to the equipment use graph the blog contains.
The use trends in this graphic show us that the only piece of non Meta 1 equipment (Meta 1 = Militia/Standard) which sees much use is the Advanced Nanite Injectors, and in this single case its use levels are still below all Meta 1 equipment except Drop Uplinks. Meta 1 Hives, Injectors, Reppers, and Militia gear all rank well above the Advanced Injectors level of use, with even Meta 1 Remote Explosives seeing slightly greater use than the Advanced Injector.
Use of Proto gear is hard to assess as it is all so low volume as to be nearly a flat line across the bottom of the graph. In part this is attributable no doubt to the SP required to fit such gear, but that is at least in part offset by those players who 'pre-buy' top level fittings for use later (I myself have ~400 fully proto Logi fits already purchased and ready for use). Since these numbers are based on market purchases such pre-planning can create a false sense of use for Proto Equipment.
When you look at the graph the disparity is striking, but for those following this thread not unexpected (tho I will admit I'm surprised by how much more often the Standard gear is used vs the Militia gear, and have to wonder how much those numbers would shift if the graph were based on fits deployed rather than market items purchased, as much Militia gear use is BPO and those are only one time purchases).
I'd love to have graphs for weapon use and vehicle use as well to provide better context for this information, there are after all certainly a myriad of factors in play (for example the popularity of Nanohives is no doubt fueled by the thirsty magazines of single equipment slot assault suits whos merc users can directly benefit from their own gear, as opposed to an Injector or Repper that must be applied to an exterior target), but lacking that I will forge head. 
While the contents of this blog do not independently confirm what this thread has been discussing they certainly do nothing to disprove it and I think the true implications are not so much in the ranking of use as the margin. It should surprise no one that standard nanohives have a high use volume, or that the oft ignored (and admittedly hard to fit) drop uplink has a relatively low volume, however it still seems telling more than three quarters of all equipment consumption is within the Meta 1 range (this is an approximation as the graph is not numbered so I'm having to "eyeball" it).
To highlight what I'm saying about margins consider how often you see "GEK" or "Duvolle" in the kill feeds during your matches, do you see "Exile/Militia" 4-5 times as often as you see GEK and Duvolle combined?
The comparison is anecdotal to be sure but it is nonetheless interesting to compare use rates of properly WP scaled gear with the factor of magnitude spread shown in the equipment line.
I'm cautiously optimistic that the internal analysis CCP has done on these numbers will lead to a more expiedent address regarding the subjects in this thread. It will be a good day when the potential rewards for using equipment properly scales throughout the meta levels to reflect the tactical value of it's use.
I'd love to hear everyones feedback on how they see this DevBlog relating to our thread.
Cheers,
Cross
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
843
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Posted - 2013.03.26 00:11:00 -
[81] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Cross you are starting to pull me over to your side. I have been thinking about this lots more and I have been watching my play style and suit fits and I have realized that as I move up the logi equipment ladder I have been doing a lot more killing and less healing. I am not sure if it is because I am better shot, running with other logi in the squad or something else I am not aware of but you are getting more correct every battle.
At the beginning of the last reset I would have a negative KDR at the end of every battle with few exceptions but I would always be at the top of the board and now that I have more skills in "core" areas I find myself with a positive KDR. I give partial credit to my ELM and our love of tears. I have noticed that I don't drop many SPs in logi equipment compared to other areas because I like my equipment. I do run advanced stuff because I like it better than MTL or standard but you are correct that I have no good reason fro proto gear, except for a two beam tool. You have almost hooked me in with you.
Lastly, what is your opinion on vehicle repair and shield transportation? I have a lot of fun helping out team vehicles but get NO bonuses or payment. My reping and trans LAV cost about 100k and when I go zero and three and loose one or two LAVs and dropsuit it hurts my wallet. Almost anything would be a better system them that.
Thanks for responding again
I'm glad what we're saying is making sense for you, I'm always interested to hear a new point of view and have the ideas I've put forth tested by a well reasoned counter point.
I've had similar expriences to what you describe as my point totals rise, I spend fewer and fewer of my points on Logi related skills and more on 'Slayer' related skills. Obviously a Logi on the field who can dish out dps in support of the squad is more of an asset than one who can't provide any fire support but when it's more effective for me to take a high cost skills like mass driver proficiency to level 3 than it is to take something fundamental like nanocircuitry or repair tool operation up to level 3-4 it starts to really seem off. I provide Logi support for my permanent squad and it's rather telling that not one of them objects to my skill plan of getting everything on my fit Proto before leveling up my Logi/Medic/Support skills or equipment any farther (and even then planing to only run it for Corp battles and the like).
I'd like to comment on the Proto Repair Tools since you mention them, the two beams most certainly do provide a tactical benefit worth having, leaving the decreased potential WP gains from dropsuits aside the Proto line highlights some of the weaknesses in the current support awards system. There are vehicle specific proto repair tools, which by description are intended to sacrifice dropsuit repair in favor of maintaining the vehicular assets your team fields. Now even with the game changer that a proper tank can be I've yet to meet a Logi that opts to run the vehicle focused repair tool (and some of the Logis I've spoke when are frequent gunners they have extra incentive to run vehicle tools). Now while I assume there must be a few Logi out there who do use the vehicle reppers they face being short changed even more than other Logi who run Proto, because the vehicle repairs only earn them guardian awards and at the reduced rate of 25 WP. Meaning that a Logi/Gunner who makes the right tactical call and jumps out of the tank to rep it is not only getting zero WP for the armor repaired but is losing 10 WP per kill made by the HAV, or 12 WP with active squad order (as compared with sitting in a gunner seat). But here's the real irony, due to the way cycles work if a Logi who wants to focus on infantry repairs desires to get the highest WP potential from a Proto tool using the vehicle repair tool will be the best option because it's lower HP repped per cycle improve potential earnings while still giving the tactical edge of an extra repair stream.
Lastly, on vehicle repair and shield transportation. Short answer, they deserve war points.
A single kill is worth 50 WP, while that same kill in a fully manned HAV is worth minimum 130 WP (and can climb much higher if there are kill assists or a squad order involved). A single infantry rep cycle is worth 25 WP and goes to zero when preformed by a vehicle fully manned or no. That is a glaring disparity in reward when the risk (in both SP and ISK) for running such support vehicles is comparable to their more aggressive cousins. This short shrift for support vehicles goes well beyond repair (of shields or armor) however, Dropship operators gain precious few WP and those they do gain aren't for fulfilling the tactical role that their very name implies. LAVs and HAVs can (and not small expense) fit mobile CRUs however despite the tactical asset and fittings burden these modules provide they hold a WP earnings potential of zero.
The fundamental disparity between slay and support present among infantry roles is taken to extremes within the realm of vehicles, when a squad running a slayer HAV can earn 5 precision strikes within one match (that's a minimum of 12,500 war points for those keeping score) and a vehicle support squad can only look forward to war points gained from the occasional assist or kill of opportunity while making zero from effectively preforming their primary tactical role.... well that's clearly not a case of balanced rewards parity.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
843
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Posted - 2013.03.26 03:20:00 -
[82] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:I just don't see the disparity of warpoints for Logi bros. In a good game I have no trouble whatsoever landing a high spot on the leader board.
As for remote reps vehicle mods; ***** broken and needs huge overhaul.
Reading the whole thread would help, the newly updated OP especially (or the recent posts by Thrillhouse) touch on this in some depth. But to reiterate again here the question is about scaling as it relates to Meta level of gear not whether or not a Logi can earn decent WPs in general (that was an issue under CODEX after the LAV farmers got the repper nerfed via hotfix but it's not the point of this thread). It's also (as expressed in post #2 and most recently reiterated in post #193) has nothing to do with the leaderboards or how well I/other Logi contributing to this thread do on average within a match. You can check out my "ps" in post #198 (also quoted in post #2) for more information regarding my personal status in this if you consider that relevant.
In short for equipment the disparity is within the equipment line itself not between Logis and other classes per se, indeed proper in depth balance assessments between classes are hard to attain while the internal aspects of certain equipment awards remain skewed, it's just as possible that Logis are over preforming the curve as under-performing with regards to role parity, I haven't looked into that for the reasons listed above, nor is it the subject of this thread.
The vehicle situation, while it suffers from the same type of disparity is far more extreme and certainly does show a clear imbalance in earnings between battlefield roles. I've focused less on that side of things because I have less direct experience with vehicles than I do as a ground ponder, so where not specified it's generally safe to assume I'm talking about infantry (or that I've made a type o, which is sadly all to common ).
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
847
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Posted - 2013.03.27 00:58:00 -
[83] - Quote
The first question I think we need to ask with regards to "farming" is what is the definition of farming?
Sitting in total safety while gathering SP/ISK seems to be a clear cut case of farming, but it's also a "working as intended" game mechanic within this build due to CCP assigning the largest factors in both SP and ISK gain to time spent in match.
Beyond that it becomes even more gray, if three assault guys throw down nanohives at a forward position to maintain ammo (using good tactical teamwork) does it become "farming" if they use each others hives thus granting points to their squad mates? What if they run through the line of hives thus giving out WP to their squad mates faster than the cooldown timer would allow if they stood in a single hive, is that farming?
What if 3 out of 4 squad members intentionally damage (with no intent to kill) a target thus gaining the squad an extra 75 WP for that single kill (more with squad order) is that farming? Is that more or less farming than taking a couple shot to armor knowing the Logi in your squad will repair you for 25-50 WP?
What about squads who each deploy an uplink at the start of a match and spawn on each others uplinks earning the squad 25-30 WP per death their squad suffers, is that farming?
How about a Merc with a Laser who sweeps a group of red dots, or a Mass Driver who pops a shot or two into a group of reds. They both gain many assist points from these actions are they farming?
Or a Logi repping a Heavy as he lays down fire, the heavy staying in the open longer than he otherwise would because he knows he has reps, are these players farming points, playing tactically, both?
A Merc reaches a hacked objective when it's roughly half way to flipping, the Merc can spend the time counter hacking, or can post up and defend the objective until it flips and then re-hack it. The second choice exposes our Merc to less risk because he's exposing his back while hacking for a lower amount of time but is letting the objective flip when you could have stopped it farming?
To return to the definitio of farming, I think it is "being excessively rewarded for non-tactical/non-contributing actions".
The problem with my definition in the current build of the game is that it is not supported by the game mechanics, there are far too many ways that less effective/tactical team play are rewarded over and above teamwork and tactical play. It seems to be highly problematic attempting to prevent/solve farming issues (which are essentially exploit of the WP awards system) until the system itself is balanced and working properly.
[continued below... I failed at keep this brief ] |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
847
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Posted - 2013.03.27 00:58:00 -
[84] - Quote
On a separate point, the type of farming which could be done with revives (or to a lessor extent repairs) can be done from the other side with kills as well but we don't see a WP gains timer/cap on kills. And for that matter even under the current system 'farming' Rep/Revive points is actually quite simple.
- Create a fit with stacked armor plates, self damage in some way (there are many easy ways outside of combat)
- When armor is around 10% allow shields to fully regen and tag a red dot with some fire (easy to do from range with little risk, or even in QCQ via use of a LAV). Your timer is now "live" and your buddy can rep you for the full amount of your armor damage, furthermore the current cap does little to slow this down because so much of the time in this almost risk free method takes place while the cap timer cools down. If one of you dies? Well there are revive points to me had (and you're in free suits anyway).
Improving internal scaling of Logi gear actually reduces the value of farming Logi points when compared to the present system. Under the current system the highest points are framed using Militia Logi gear allowing the farmers to "boost" risk free because they can attain max gains while using 100% BPO fits. Under the proposed change MIL gear would give more than the current average while PRO would give more thus reducing the points that can be farmed via free fits. And while it's true that, under the new system, PRO gear could yeild higher earnings than present, use of that gear requires a much higher 'buy in' of both ISK and SP to run that gear at all. Right now the buy in to farm is zero SP and a one time investment of AUR (or even zero AUR with certain starting roles selected). Under the new system it would take millions of both SP and ISK to run the gear required, which if nothing else would reduce farming by making it take months before someone could start doing it, and even then the rewards don't show up for a longer time as well because they'll need to farm up WP equal to what they spent just to "break even". Those who want to farm wouldn't really do it with Logi gear once internal scaling is fixed, they'll just afk in the MCC.
A side note regarding farming outside of pub matches, it is already meaningless as those matches award no direct SP or ISK gains whatsoever. They are currently based exclusively on the contract system so unless/until CCP changes the mechanics there farming is exclusively a pub match phenomenon.
I realize that I'm raising more questions than I'm answering here, but I suppose my point is with all the mitigating factors in play it maybe better to implement changes to the equipment line and test the results rather than waiting to find a theoretically perfect implementation (which is not to say we should cease this conversation or seeking for the best possible solution ^.^)
Summation
- Most of the farming will be minor in impact (farmers take the easy road and the easiest form of farming is sitting passively in the MCC)
- The proposed changes will discourage farming when compared with the present system. (Due to enhanced SP and ISK costs and well as forcing SP investment into support skills rather than slayer skills or other utility skills)
- Farming as an issue applies only to pub matches, while war point earnings maintain relevance in all battles due to orbital support.
- Any attempts to address the possible issue/implications of farming need an established definition that applies game wide so as to maintain proper context and balance parity.
I'm interested in seeing what others have to say, particularly with regards to an acceptable definition for "farming" before I venture too deeply into the pool of possible solutions. (The Robot Devil & S Park Finner you both bring up interesting points which I want to touch on but I'll save my remarks for a later time).
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
856
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Posted - 2013.03.27 18:37:00 -
[85] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:I like the idea of -10 points for every revive after the first, on the same merc in a set time, till zero.
OK here I go again. The repair tool is starting to stick out to me as a problem more than any other piece of gear. The UL either allow more active at once, more carried, more spawns per or faster spawns. Everyone of the "upgrades" allow for more points to be made faster when compared to lower tier items. The injectors repair more armor per level and thus the merc that is revived doesn't need a rep allowing you to move on to another target ( 1 rep = 50 and two cycles = 50) and make more points than they would have ( based on time spend performing the actions) if lower tier injectors were used. In the same amount of time it takes me to revive one merc and then rep 2 cycles ( about 150 HP) that equals about 100 WPs I can revive three mercs with no reps to almost full armor or whatever the proto injector repairs and make 150 WPs. Nano hives are in the same category as uplinks. The better the hive the longer it supplies or it supplies more or supplies faster.
This thread has been very fun. I like complex topics in games that make me forget about RL.
Again, it is hard to convey passion or seriousness in these posts and I don't want to come off as a douche. I am only bringing things to light that I think are valid arguments. I am not saying I am correct as much I am asking for feedback on my views of the topic. This has been my favorite thread so far because it has not degraded into name calling and trolling.
I'm going to respond based on each piece of gear, to try and keep things closer to short and sweet (you know how bad I can be at that )
Uplinks - Likely the most balanced piece of equipment we have at this point, the Uplink functions much more directly within the same framework as a weapon. It's stats allow for more/faster WP gain (while the awards themselves are static) thus scaling earnings potential with meta level.
Nanohives - Also fairly balanced, the "cooldown timer" and the ability to side step it via more than one merc is a little silly but on balance may actually be the best solution when considering both WP gains and development resources. In all I think this should be polished but it's not a dire need and is still a pretty balanced piece of equipment which scales along the same lines as Uplinks and Weapons.
Injector - A system of diminishing returns or a "cooldown" on WPs gained from reviving x Merc y times in z span of time does seem like a good system, details can be ironed out through testing provided CCP is willing to tweak numbers over the course of more than one build. Combine this with WP awards being scaled internally (the suggestion made earlier in this thread of tying WP gained to % repaired is workable, MIL/STD = 30, ADV = 50, PRO = 80) this could make for a solid improvement to the Injector. The point amounts may need to be adjusted slightly after testing to maintain balance but determining that is what betas are for
Repair Tool - The poor repair tool, it is the most broken piece within the equipment line. It still operates within/under limitations created to stop various forms of farming most(all?) of which are now functionally obsolete as they're less effective at farming SP/ISK than the simple act of staying in the MCC for an entire match. The repair tool no longer earns points for repairing installations. The repair tool now earns no triage points for repairing vehicles, and even it's guardian points are less than guardian points from infantry. Even the vehicle specific repair tools earn no better rewards for doing their job and repairing vehicles. Infantry WPs earned are capped with non-specific amounts and timers, fewer guardian awards push you to cap as fast/faster than a lager number of triage awards, does the 10 WP disparity between them keep this equal? In my testing guardian awards will push you to cap as early as 3 awards (105 WP total) while triage awards can earn as many as 150 WP before hitting cap. The UI fails to provide any feedback on when you're nearing, or still within the cap thus promoting sloppy play by forcing players to guess what their own equipment is doing. The most grievous problem for the repair tool however is also the longest standing; WP awards are tied to cycles rather than HP repaired. This causes the tactical advantages gained by advancing through the levels of repper to become earnings punishments. The upper level tools repair more Mercs and do it faster, thus they are active for fewer cycles meaning much lower earnings from the same HP repaired. Example: Two friendly Mercs are damaged for a total of 350 HP. Militia repairs @25 hp/s = 14 cycles. Proto repairs @44 hp/s = 7.95 cycles, with partial cycles not counting that drops to 7. Even worse due to the cooldown cap the faster repair from Proto means you're in cap for longer because repairing the same HP is so much faster. The rewards scaling on the repair tool are inverse to the proper scaling of weapons, uplinks etc.
Rev/Rep overlap - Fundamentally Injectors and Reppers both earn WPs for restoring friendly HP, the lack of a baseline 'hp repaired = wp gained' ratio, combines with the improper scaling in both lines compounding the earnings problem by placing a magnified burden on Mercs who choose a dedicated medic/support role, a burden which increases as your gear improves.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
875
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Posted - 2013.04.02 18:05:00 -
[86] - Quote
Anax 01, CODE Breaker93, The Robot Devil, thanks guys, I try to keep my posts clear/useful so I'm glad it's paying off =)
I think Thrillhouse is on to something with regards to farming/boosting. The bite of the questions is what are the implications of this action?
The guy blasting around in a LAV isn't contributing much but he's not earning much either so on balance there's no problem with that level of behavior.
While players just driving around and the like aren't contributing much to the team they aren't being rewarded by the system for doing so. Farming/boosting becomes a problem when those non-contributing actions start to provide rewards that are as good or greater (often with lower risk) than the rewards provided to someone who's risking ISK, investing SP and putting themselves into the match in a tactical/team oriented manner.
When considered in the above light it's no wonder "farming" is so unclear at this point, since a large portion of ISK gain, and the majority of SP gain have both been pegged to time spent in match making the best farming method "just spawn in and sit there". As long as that remains true I'm personally disinclined to hold off on testing features that could improve game play based on the concern that someone might later use them to farm if/when CCP removes the ability to farm simply by spawning (which for the record I think they will remove eventually, but it'll take some time).
FF/TK'ing - A key point to keep in mind (and it's two fould) is that FF will be enabled within PC/FW/Corp battles, but turned off in Instant Battles (and presumably PvE as well). The second part of that being SP isn't awarded within the PC/FW/Corp deployments, as such we're only really addressing pub matches when we talk about SP gains or concerns over farming/boosting. A note here, TK's in pub matches already remove WP in the current build down to a minimum of zero. So while you can't go negative you can lose WP. This is important to note for two reasons, 1) it means the engine contains at least some ability to track FF type damage and deduct WP because of it. 2) It means that farming WP from injectors is more possible and profitable under the current system than under the proposed changes. (Squad of two, both run starter fits, one TK's the other with a LAV or Nade, the surviving member revives the downed squad mate, then they swap. Method can be done fully within the redzone, grenade method can even be done on the MCC itself).
The point being that even with FF WP tracking there are still ways for a squad of 2 to farm points as it stands now, thus the ability to farm points under a new system would not be a net change in game balance. Besides which as The Robot Devil accurately points out there are some very potent reasons why being a known TK Merc will undermine any player who does it.
Tk'ing, much like farming itself, is going to be (largely, I doubt it'll ever be completely eradicated) a think of the past once CCP finishes the CREST API for Dust.
So leaving farming aside does anyone think the suggested alterations to equipment scaling would not properly parallel the scaling of other game aspects like 'slayer' WP earnings? Because while this thread is focused on the internal scaling of the equipment line we certainly don't want support actions to be more or less rewarding than their aggressive counterparts, unless rewards are balanced the game will be lacking.
Cheers,
Cross
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
881
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Posted - 2013.04.08 02:12:00 -
[87] - Quote
In light of the new racial suits this issue is going to be compounded. Unless it's been changed the new Omen Logi suit will enhance the effectiveness of repair tools, thus running afoul of the same scaling difficulties as the upper meta gear, what's more the effects stack magnifying the diminishing returns on WP earnings. It will be a real pity if players skill into Proto dropsuits (over 1.2 million SP for the final level of the skill alone) only to discover that their chosen suits come with a built in reduction to SP and ISK earnings.
Still hoping for a blue post in here, as I've said before a simple "this issue as been added to our backlog" would be more than adequate and I'd personally be grateful for the communication on this subject.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
885
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Posted - 2013.04.21 20:03:00 -
[88] - Quote
New Dev Blog is out, and at the risk of repeating myself Uprising would be a great time to fix the mechanical balanced issues raised in this thread. Failing that it would be really great to get some acknowledgement of the problems identified here I am still (as recently as this week) meeting new Logi (plural not singular) who are frustrated by this imbalance and who were unaware of the particulars.
Listening to their discussion of game play as they try to figure out why their earnings and success seem to be going down as they advance in SP as become an all too familiar experience. Support actions need not, and indeed should not, have tactical value and earnings value pitted against each other in a 'zero sum' relationship.
~Cross
Link to the aforementioned blog: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/04/skill-system-changes-in-uprising-update/ |
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Posted - 2013.04.22 04:58:00 -
[89] - Quote
Here's one of the latest new threads raising the subjects discussed here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=69911&find=unread
The issue persists and in so doing continues to effect game play for many Merc, both new and old. It is quite telling that throughout several builds others who've never been part of this thread continue to encounter and object to the shortfalls we've highlight here. Mechanical parity in balance is key, as is not putting rewards at tactical play in an antagonistic zero sum relationship.
I wish to repeat my prior request, CCP please let us know you've recognized and are working on the problem. I am confident that the many posters here understand these things take time and I for one would be more than happy with a simple "this problem has been added to our backlog" statement.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.04.23 16:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
@Lynn Beck
Thanks for posting
I believe it's pretty much unanimous that the best solution is one which awards 'X WP per Y HP repaired' so that it keeps everyone on the same footing while still allowing for proper scaling of the earnings present. However it's unclear what the mechanical/development requirements of that may be, as such it's unknown whether that method is an option so in the absence of Dev feedback we continue to explore other options.
The repper is burdened with a host of problems in its present form, and while by and large they do effect all levels of Logi they become worse as you run better gear. This clearly provides no mechanical (tho there are some tactical) incentive to upgrade. As such the rewards scaling needs to be altered, whether that is by increasing all awards at every level or decreasing some lower meta awards and rampping up from there in part is a wider balance concern that extends outside of the Logi class alone and thus CCP needs to evaluate it in context of their internal data.
The Repper also suffers from an in adequate UI presence. Mercs being repaired rarely know it, Mercs repairing have no indication of their cycle times, aim/lock inductors to establish lock on (at least there's the square and notification when you have established a lock), and no UI feedback regarding the cooldowns or cap effects
You do raise a valid point, that some of the suggestions here would increase the "entrance barrier" for new Logi trying to start out. Thanks for posting.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.04.24 06:44:00 -
[91] - Quote
Still hoping for a Dev response prior to Uprising. |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:17:00 -
[92] - Quote
Now that Uprising is only a matter of days before live launch I have to ask, are we really going to see such a fundamental issue included in the live build of the game despite it's being pointed out repeatedly and in many threads since Closed Beta?
I understand there's a lot to work on but going from closed beta to live release with this problem being discussed and not even having it commented on by CCP... that just feels off to me. |
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Posted - 2013.04.30 04:53:00 -
[93] - Quote
@Lynn, thanks for posting more feedback is always welcome :)
In general having seen the fanfest keynote I'm hopeful that among the thousands of changes and improvements that are coming with Uprising a fix to this issue is included. Only a few days to see if that's the case, and again I do understand that there isn't time to get to everything so even if Uprising doesn't include these fixes that would be one thing if there were a response directly to these issues. What gets to me somewhat is the lack of any direct response to the issues raised here at any point from closed beta until present. Hopefully Uprising has the fixes we're looking for (or at least a start on them), we'll see in a week
Cheers,
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Posted - 2013.05.08 07:13:00 -
[94] - Quote
Further testing needs to be done but some early observations indicate that the "cycle" method for awards may have been updated to a more HP based system.
I am posting both to comment on the encouraging news and to request the help of fellow Logi players in further testing of this and other Logi gear within the new build.
My initial impressions are recorded here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=74229&find=unread.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.05.09 16:01:00 -
[95] - Quote
First and foremost I want to say thank you CCP Nothin for the response, I appricate your taking the time
CCP Nothin wrote:Thanks for such admirably patient posting. A reply to this thread is long overdue, but here goes.
First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
I'm thrilled by this and happy to wait patiently for the resource and technical hurdles to be surmounted.
Quote:
Some historical musings about repair rewards specifically:
In Chromosome, the repair rewards were changed from the old cyclical system. We replaced that with two new rewards:
Guardian - 35 WP - You're actively repairing a player who kills a target
Triage - 25 WP - You repair someone who has taken damage within the last 60 seconds
The primary reason for switching from the old cyclical rewards to the above was exploitation -- with the old system, we saw players coming up with all sorts of cunning schemes for racking up record amounts of WP in record times. The new rewards are more difficult to exploit, as obtaining them requires interaction between the teams (and by interaction, I mean shooting the other team in the faceplate). As you would have to coordinate with players on both teams to exploit this (something that shouldn't be easy in e.g. instant battles), they should be more robust against exploitation. With the new rewards we also added a (tweakable) cooldown to how often you could earn rewards to have a fall back in case someone found a clever new way to game the system.
The new rewards are compatible with scaling based on the quality of equipment used and it's just a question of investing us finding some development time to make the WP reward system support it.
The new system has it's weaknesses but it is undoubtedly an improvement over the days of "bumper LAV" and all the other exploits. Combined with meta scaling I think it will preform even better.
Quote:
In the meantime, we'd love to hear your feedback on how the repair rewards are performing to make adjustments if necessary. Do you feel that the reward levels reasonable? Do you feel that reward experience you get consistent (i.e. do you get rewards when you expect to get them)?
The average reward levels seemed reasonable under Chromosome, I've yet to spend sufficient time with Uprising to be certain here, I'll report back if the levels seem different under Uprising.
In regards to the consistency of the rewards experience there seems to be a lack of context. I've tested extensively so at this point IGÇÖve gained a feel for what to expect but I am the exception to the trends I've seen among players. The current system lacks any UI feedback and many players seem to have missed the post regarding Guardian v Triage awards and the cap.
Here are the things I encounter most frequently when interacting with other Mercs, especially those new to use of the support equipment.
- Presumption that all repairs will earn something (obviously with the cap this is not the case)
- Presumption that a lack of rewards earnings/lack of rewards indicators (after cap is it) is not GÇ£working as intendedGÇ¥ but is in fact a bug that will be fixed.
- Upon learning of the cap the behavior shifts toward Repairing until cap is hit and then swapping to another action. More often than not that happens even if continuing to repair would be the best choice tactically.
- Frequency of the repair tool being stripped from fits; from CODEX to present repair tools have been (among non-exploit users) the first item on the block when freeing up equipment slots. In Uprising Injectors share the same fate to a degree due to hit detection but the repair tool is frequently passed over and a large part of that is the confusion and inconsistencies created by the cap/lack of in game feedback regarding the cap.
I am unsure of the possible mechanical limitations on this idea but IGÇÖd propose something in the following vein.
- Give players some in game indicator when theyGÇÖve hit the cap, and when they come out of GÇÿcooldownGÇÖ
- Separate Guardian and Triage rewards such that Guardian no longer falls under the cap, or failing that alter it such that each type of earning has a separate timer.
- Alter the cap to a GÇ£soft capGÇ¥ method where something is still earned after hitting cap, I would suggest a small amount such as 1-5 WP. Players are already familiar with this idea from the SP system and this single change would address a lot of the UI/cap confusion IGÇÖve outlined above.
- Post an explicit/detailed breakdown of how the system works as a sticky in the Training Grounds. New players are less likely to be frustrated or confused if they have information going in.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.05.09 16:58:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:We have quite a few additional WP rewards in plans along with iteration work on the existing rewards, e.g. rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was), giving a bonus for doing things with your squad, and so on.
Overall, we feel that we don't quite have the full set of rewards in place yetbut we are working at getting to a better place. As I see it, a decent player should be able to play in, for example, a support role full time without having to do part-time gigs in other jobs to cover the costs.
If you have a good idea for a reward that works to strengthen some of the areas that need it, we'd love to hear it.
Really looking forward to increased granularity of rewards (be they assists or otherwise), I know these things take time so color me excited not impatient. The direction you've outlined for WPs is making this tester very --->
Step-Away-Slowly wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was)
All 3 of these things I have wanted for quite some time, this pleases me. Please make injector and repair tools give rewards based on how much HP was healed. Using a better repair tool, nanite injector, or even a better nanohive should not be awarded any more sp than the standard ones give. The advantage to using better equipment is keeping your team alive and supplied. Especially useful in the previous build when you have squadmates running expensive fits and being a vital role in the winning or losing of the battle. That is what being a logi is all about, supporting the team. if you can't run face to face with an enemy and take them out, be a logi and follow a squadmate with a repair tool and be ready to throw down a nanohive if they get low on ammo. Just doing that should be enough motivation to do it, you get points for it anyways and never have to pull a trigger or hack an objective. Basically being a logi is earning you free points. You don't have to be productive, just have to help out the ones that are, which i guess in turn would be productive. 
A better nanohive already gives better rewards than a low meta one, as does a better weapon when compared with a less effective weapon of the same type. This balance to scaling is already a nearly game wide phenomena with a few rare exceptions, such as the repair tool, and it has been pervasive for as long as IGÇÖve been a tester in Dust.
The idea you present above is a false dichotomy, tactical value and war point value are meant to function in parallel not in an antagonistic/zero some relationship. In short you should be earning war points based on the tactical value of your actions, anything less begins to distort the risk vs reward paradigm of D514 and also diminishes the meaning/diversity of player choice.
Rather than rehash points already thoroughly covered in the thread however IGÇÖll direct you to start reading the posts beginning with #189, which directly relate to this subject. After all in a thread this size it can be easy to miss some of the discussion. |
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Posted - 2013.05.09 16:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:
First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
Concern: If something like this went live, newer players who are currently reduced to using Militia or entry-level gear are going to be behind the WP curve.. Something like this would make the gap between Veteran and New player even worse. If you do this, maybe something like EVE and Mechwarrior Online does with new players might be in order. For example, a temporary 'SP Gain Acceleration' for a certain amount of time. From the initial 500k to maybe 1.5M or 2M, with the gain accelerated at first(200-300% gain), tapering off as you reach the end(eventually to the current gain amount). Sort of a 'New Player' reward. This would grealy improve the beginner experience, allowing them to get in to decent gear without the absolutely horrid Week 1 - 6 grind that currently exists(And I'm refering to the old SP layout - Considering my 5 mil did not go far, I imagine it's worse now!!). And, after giving them a taste of boosted experience, they'd be more likely to purchase boosters in order to keep the fix going. The player wins, CCP wins, everyone wins.
Your concern is somewhat addressed by the post series starting with #189 however let me provide some more direct context here.
First something like this is not theoretical it is already live and has been live since closed beta, there are a few aspects of the game such as equipment where itGÇÖs not fully iterated at this moment but the basic concept is implicate to how D514 plays and functions and has been since I started in closed beta. There is, simply put, no functional way to make a sandbox game where player choices matter and also keep everyone on even footing. Even if D514 were gutted down to the level of a purely twitch game with zero implications to any action outside of the single match there would still be an implicit gap between new players and vets. ItGÇÖs important to maintain internal balance between the mechanical elements of the game, not try to enforce an artificial and unattainable parity upon the players.
That said IGÇÖm actually not opposed to the general concept of the idea youGÇÖve suggested and in fact voiced my support for it earlier in a thread by RINON114 which you can pull up via search if you are so inclined.
@Cruxio Thank you for bringing this up. I havenGÇÖt tested the scanner myself due to SP limitations but its function and rewards certainly have a place within this conversation.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.05.19 14:05:00 -
[98] - Quote
Quick update. See bullet point list for TL;DR version
Above I posted that I'd be providing more feedback regarding Logi WP earnings in Uprising vs Chrome.
This testing is currently stalled due to a combination of Injector activation/targeting issues (known bug CCP is hard at work to resolve this) and the current overpowered nature of the TAR. The TAR in its current state consistently kills even most tanked builds within 4 shots (presuming those shots land on target). These kills frequently (i.e. more than half the time) seem to cause bleed out rendering both Injectors and Reppers less useful. [It is worth noting here that bleed out from all weapons seems more common under Uprising than prior].
I do not feel the environment is sufficiently controlled for proper comparative testing at this point and as such this testing will remain on hold until the situation changes.
If Uprising WP earnings (bugs and all) are compared directly to Chrome earnings then there is a drastic down turn in the net value of support actions under Uprising (note, net value not raw value).
Casual factors of the WP downturn under Uprising
- Nanohive Nerf (Hives now supply less ammo on average, thus lowering their potential earnings)
- Injector issues(There are quite a few of these, but to reiterate CCP is aware of this and working on the problem)
- Bleedout Increase (Repair Tool awards are down due to increased frequency of "insta bleed" and the altered average engagement range due to TAR spam. Weapons that drastically out dps the Rep per second of even proto tools and do so at several times the max range of the repair tool reduces the possible applications of the tool and thus it's rewards.
- Dropuplinks (These are now much easier to spot on the map, naturally causing them to be disposed of more often and thus greatly diminishing their offered earnings. I'd happily invest in a Proto Uplink with higher ISK cost and lower overall stats if it's scan profile were lowered. Can we have a line of CovOps Uplinks CCP?)
- Active Scanners (I am unaware of any implemented WP earnings at this time)
- Remote Explosives (Earnings potential seems to have maintained parity with Chromosome levels)
It is ironic that I see so many "nerf Logi" / "make Logi unable to fight and only support" threads at the same time as the functional net earnings for support actions are suffering. I know quite a few Logi and all of them I've played with/spoken with on the subject are (regardless of fittings employed) spending more time devoted to "slayer" actions under Uprising than the did under Chromosome (myself included). This situation only servers to highlight out thoroughly out of touch most of the pro "Logi suit nerf" crowd are with what playing a support role in Dust actually consists of/requires.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.05.21 14:11:00 -
[99] - Quote
Agreed Aquinarius I'm looking forward to that reward as well
Also a bit of additional info regarding the active scanner rewards are already planned and confirmed as being worked on. As my prior post stated they are not currently active in game (which impacts current support action earnings) but I did not want to leave the impression that no resolution to that situation was planned.
I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on the build update and testing the status of support earnings under Uprising once the documented bugs et al have been addressed. I expect a few touch ups to be required but I've the suspicion that once things are working as intended Logi's will very much like how Uprising plays for a support character.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.05.29 23:19:00 -
[100] - Quote
Treablo James Howard wrote:You may not like this answer. But Increasing the WP gain may be a bad idea for Orbital strike potential.
In a good squad, we can use anywhere between 3-4 orbitals a game.
If you're looking to increase this WP potential. You could be seeing who knows 7+?
I hope CCP really considers the imbalance they're going to place on potential "rewards".
From my point of view. I get plenty of WP. And from your guys suggestions. I could get orbitals by myself, especially if I am getting more WP for hack interruptions, assists, and assisted hacks.
To address the last part of your post, additional WP for counter hacks et al will be a game wide increase and really is not the subject of this thread. Granted there is a Dev post here which mentions them but let's stay on point.
The subject of this this thread is not, and never has been, and attempt to increase overall WP earnings above Chromosome levels (Uprising levels are currently inadequate but that seems to be a side-effect of certain bugs).
The focal point of this thread is to establish and maintain proper internal WP scaling for the equipment line.
Granted this may lead to certain successful players earning more WP than they do now but even so the balance will still be better as it will require a higher investment of ISK and SP to do so. Under current conditions the most WP valuable gear to run is Militia gear with potential earnings decreasing as higher meta gear is employed. That effect is improper and needs to be addressed.
If the thread in general/my clarifications remain unclear please post back and I'll be happy to link the specific thread posts in which these things are discussed in more depth.
Cheers,
Cross
ps ~ I've run squads that earn 5-6 OBs already, at least with the changes proposed reaching those earnings levels won't be pinned to use of Militia gear anymore. Number of orbital strikes should be balanced by match wide WP potential, individual sub-categories of WP earnings should not be barred from internal balance to prevent it. Even thought parts of them interact they're still separate issues. |
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Posted - 2013.06.01 23:35:00 -
[101] - Quote
Uprising Support earnings Templar Manhunt edition
Providing an addendum/update to my post #260
The data presented there seems to be maintaining at this point.
Support earnings rundown, advice for Logis
- Repair Tool -- The Repper is now king. While it still faces some of the problems present prior to Uprising it is currently the most stable source of support earnings, practice the lock on and don't deploy without it. Also bear in mind that a higher ratio of points under Uprising will be Guardian than Triage (as compared with Chrome levels).
- Uplinks -- Despite the hit they took with their new "you can see me everywhere on the map" scan profile the Uplink is in second place of effective earnings. Best use of uplinks to ensure earnings is to place a minimum of 2 in the same area making certain that they are not in close enough proximity to each other so as to be simultaneously visible on radar.
- Remote Explosives -- With the decrease in general support earnings REs despite their more 'slayer' leanings are holding strong in third for equipment to field. Running these can secure a flank or rearguard position for your squad allowing you to support them with repairs et al while they stay within focus fire range of each other.
- Nanohives -- Don't expect them to last long or to get as many WP out of them but they're still in high demand (maybe even higher demand than before) and if you have them your squad/team will gratefully use them. Best ptratice for a mobile Logi is to deploy a hive upon request from 2 squad members (1 if he's totally dry) and allow it to be fully consumed before the squad moves on. Refresh your stock of nanos at a depot as soon as possible so you're always ready to supply your squad. Keep your squad leader apprised of how many hives you have remaining.
- Injectors -- The bugs are still hitting our needles pretty hard but with a few tricks you can make them worth fitting. Remember the body is not the point of revive instead follow the arrow. Second make sure your squad knows that jumping or standing on an incline will make revival very difficult (do not attempt such revives with any hostile presence). Sometimes you can jump to the point in mid air where a squadmate died and revive them with use of the new system but don't rely on this method. Lastly if the body does fall more or less straight down aim for near the ankles as they tend to be the point closest to the actual revive area.
- Active Scanner -- Useful piece of gear but WP rewards are not yet enabled.
Don't forget your light weapon.
Uprising is the time of the 'slayer' Logi. Even for those of us focused on heavy support roles maintaining our WP and ISK totals will often require more frequent use of our guns than was needed in Chrome. Focus fire, covering fire and softening up/finishing off hostiles while your squad mates are reloading are all good ways to employ your light weapon in support of your squad. Even once the bugs are fixed and support actions are truly back in business these skills will retain usefulness so take this chance to practice them.
Until next time this is Cross saying keep your injectors sharp and our reppers powered. o7 |
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Posted - 2013.06.07 14:33:00 -
[102] - Quote
Informational note: There are some changes (most specifically additions) to armor mods coming up soon (likely the next build or two). I'd like to request than anyone running the repair tool, repper hives, or to a lessor extent the injector, keep a watch for these changes and report back here with how they impact the value (both tactical and WP) of those support actions (and of course any other unforeseen effects related to this thread.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.06.24 20:57:00 -
[103] - Quote
Support earnings remain low under Uprising. While patch 1.2 will not directly help this there is a fix coming for Uplink visibility which should improve earnings in that part of support. More information as it becomes available.
Also anyone following this topic that has managed regain their prior WP levels? If we can attempt to improve adapted methods under Uprising to match Chrome earnings that would be ideal. If none of us are able to do so then we may need to look into the new balance of things.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.07.02 16:57:00 -
[104] - Quote
Fellow Logi read the 1.2 patch notes and rejoice for now our injectors shall revive our fallen comrades once more! [:D]
Thanks CCP these patch notes look, on balance, amazing
Now to roll up my sleeves and get some hands on testing done, will report back later with observations and effects.
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.07.20 16:45:00 -
[105] - Quote
Timestamp: Uprising 1.2 (1.3 deploying shortly)
Updated status:
- Injector - Thank you CCP! The injector is once again functional, there are still some bugs in the system which can cause repeated injections to be required prior to revival as well as allowing clones who are actually terminated (rather than failing) to be injected resulting only in a loss of time and exposure to danger for the logi. Also we still lack official documentation on the "revival bonuses" for mercs who get revived. These were mentioned previously by CCP but I am aware of no follow up information.
- Nanohives - Continue to function as per start of build. Considering the substantial reduction in overall clusters and function, especially at the low end of the tech tree I would advise a relaxing or removal of the cooldown timer on hive WP earnings as a counterbalance for the overall earnings nerf that has been a side effect of the other changes.
- Repair Tools - These remain the primary source of WP for support logi under Uprising. (I-Shayz-I has a suggestion regarding how WP earnings and thus tactical use of the tool could be enhanced.)
- Uplinks - Assessment of earnings here is pending. While the current use value for WP earnings is near that of Chrome build there are some mechanical issues; the links being excessively visible, and the ability to glitch them into floors, walls and other objects, which cause an assessment of their true potential to be difficult.
- RE's - Use and value continue at a stable level but they are not a primary earnings source despite their status as a situational tactical asset.
- Active Scanner- No WPs assigned to this equipment yet.
Conclusion - Support Logi WP earnings potential is still down by a notable margin as compared with potential in Chrome. This situation will actually worsen as the new changes to the Logi line are rolled out. The lowered eHP role wide due to the shield recharge delay nerf will naturally bring down role wide earnings potential as average survival + active time in the fire fight is mechanically forced to decrease. The total potential earnings will likely fall even farther with the intended changes to logi skill buffs. Once pigeon-holed into a sub-role on the field tactical value will decrease dragging earnings down as well. Further most of the equipment mechanics which could be buffed are at best going to net a potential earnings increase of zero (or almost zero in the case of hive clusters) due to the WP caps currently in place.
TL;DR - Average earnings for support actions remain substantially lower under all iterations of Uprising so far than under Chrome. Changes announced in the recent Dev blog will likely further depress average potential earnings. Earnings levels under Chrome had reasonable risk vs reward value (Meta scaling issues aside) but we are no longer hitting that mark.
So far even with more total SP invested earnings are down by ~33% or more. This trend will need addressed if the role of support logi is to remain battlefield viable. (There is already a trend toward more combat and less support even among long time dedicated support logi such risk vs reward pressures only stand to increase once the secondary/player market becomes active).
0.02 ISK
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.07.26 04:02:00 -
[106] - Quote
I would enjoy feedback from other support logi on the subject of comparative earnings and play styles between chrome and present.
Has anyone cracked the code to maintain earnings at pre-uprising levels without being forced into an increasing number of aggressive combat actions or other non-squad support behaviors?
More testing > less testing
Cheers,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.07.26 08:04:00 -
[107] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Madagascan Eagle wrote:I think logis don't do bad on the scoreboard. I don't know how it was in chromosome but the logis I squad up with are always up there in the points. They're support logis at that. I do agree with incentives for people to play more tactically. Getting points for counter hacking and for repping tanks would be a good start. Absolutely. The lack of points for a counter-hack make no sense at all to me.
Last I heard this was a planed change, ETA SOONtm |
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Posted - 2013.08.04 13:02:00 -
[108] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:
The new rewards are compatible with scaling based on the quality of equipment used and it's just a question of investing us finding some development time to make the WP reward system support it.
CCP Nothin, does this mean we'll be seeing that new rewards system in 1.5?
I ask not just because I am greedy for infoz, though I am greedy for infoz , but because the type of testing I will focus on in the mean time is effected by what is upcoming and how soon, relatively speaking, it will arrive.
I hope you are able, and allowed, to post back soon
Mean time I will continue general testing. Speaking of which the Injectors are suffering greatly from the swap animation in the new system, the rate at which they're able to be used with the new system makes it often deadly to try causing a reliance on the old method to avoid death.
Thanks again for participating in the thread,
Cross |
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Posted - 2013.08.04 15:50:00 -
[109] - Quote
FLAYLOCK Steve wrote:Cross Atu wrote:One quick addendum. For those folks who like this idea please help me keep the topic active/on the front page by posting here even if it's only a "+1". Thanks Cross Chromosome EDIT:The goal of this thread is to address proper Risk vs Reward scaling of support action awards. Properly this requires their progression arc parallel that of the "slayer" classes, rather than exceed or fall short. It also requires that the earnings potential be higher with use of higher quality gear as it is throughout the rest of D514 (rather than returns diminishing as better gear is used which is the current trend). This thread is NOT intended as "nerf X" or "buff Y" thread, it's intent is to address scaling as a proper game balance requires a baseline parity among all the classes on the macro level (Progression, Rewards, et al) while maintaining diversity/supremacy within the micro (specialization within a given battlefield role should still provide proper tactical advantage). Note2: Tactical value is not interchangeable with earnings value. Highly effective tactical actions should properly be supported with improved earnings potential. The War Point system should not reward ineffective/non-tactical play over effective tactical play. Anything short of this creates confusion and frustration among many players especially those new to the game. Quoted from within the thread in hopes that it clears some things up (tl;dr version, this thread has nothing to do with leaderboard stats or personal gain).Cross Atu wrote:
ps ~ In case it matters I didn't post this thread due to struggling as a Logi, it's easy enough to "game the system" when you understand the mechanics and even without relying on that I've been able to place in the top 4-5 in the match pretty consistently. As it stands the current system actually benefits me because it allows me to run cheap/free fits all the time while earning more than if I used high meta gear, and it reduces my competition for those Logi points as I know (more or less) when to stop repping/reviving to avoid spending time on actions which earn me zero SP or ISK.
If I were motivated by self interest I wouldn't have posted this thread to begin with, but I'd feel like a real kitten if I ignored the hardships inflicted on other players just so I could score a few WP easier.
[Note: My "ps" is NOT meant to be calling anyone out or as a backhanded insult, it is simply a statement of my own reasoning and motivation provided because there's been some recurring confusion on the subject throughout this thread.]
Sounds okay but I also see this mostly applies to logis. Logis will just sp farm and revive everyone even in the middle of a gun fight just to get points.
It sounds like you are talking about pub matches here. A well organized team would never tolerate that behavior in a support player unless they were actively grinding for a 'desperation OB' to turn the tide. Pub matches are the most frequent form of play because they can be jumped into without preparation, that does not however make them the proper balance point for the game at large.
The thread was started during closed beta prior to the reduction in Equipment slots on non-logi suits and the introduction of racial suits. So you while you are correct that it now effects primarily logi that was not the foundation of the thread, the equipment scaling has some problems that need addressed regardless of which suit is being used as a backdrop.
On a side note it's odd to me how wrathful players get over being revived during a gun fight. Granted it's rarely the most effective tactic (mostly you die if you try it) but it costs the downed Merc nothing (kdr is meaningless and doesn't count) while giving them a chance, albeit a slim one, to not lose their fitting and cost their team a clone. I can understand if you're out of ammo or want to swap fits on a map with no depot that it could be frustrating, but the level of antipathy in the face of battlefield reality in game is quite bemusing to me.
I suppose in the end I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to get at with your post here, would you please elaborate for clarity?
Thanks for posting,
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2013.08.04 15:56:00 -
[110] - Quote
FLAYLOCK Steve wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:Thanks for such admirably patient posting. A reply to this thread is long overdue, but here goes.
First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
Some historical musings about repair rewards specifically:
In Chromosome, the repair rewards were changed from the old cyclical system. We replaced that with two new rewards:
Guardian - 35 WP - You're actively repairing a player who kills a target
Triage - 25 WP - You repair someone who has taken damage within the last 60 seconds
The primary reason for switching from the old cyclical rewards to the above was exploitation -- with the old system, we saw players coming up with all sorts of cunning schemes for racking up record amounts of WP in record times. The new rewards are more difficult to exploit, as obtaining them requires interaction between the teams (and by interaction, I mean shooting the other team in the faceplate). As you would have to coordinate with players on both teams to exploit this (something that shouldn't be easy in e.g. instant battles), they should be more robust against exploitation. With the new rewards we also added a (tweakable) cooldown to how often you could earn rewards to have a fall back in case someone found a clever new way to game the system.
The new rewards are compatible with scaling based on the quality of equipment used and it's just a question of investing us finding some development time to make the WP reward system support it.
In the meantime, we'd love to hear your feedback on how the repair rewards are performing to make adjustments if necessary. Do you feel that the reward levels reasonable? Do you feel that reward experience you get consistent (i.e. do you get rewards when you expect to get them)?
I hope you know if you make it so people get more war points for just using higher level gear that would increase proto stumpers ten fold. Idc about them but the way it seems is that this community is so ****** they will complain about this and soon you will nerf it. If you're going to make it so that when you use higher level gear you should make it so when a low level gear takes out a higher level gear he'll get more points. It's only fair, because there is actually more risk using lower grade gear against these proto try hards. Yeah proto cost more money but requires less skill because of the increased survivability. In other words by you using lower level gear your already risking your team a clone, but if you manage to take out people in proto gear you're doing good. Just saying, if they're tired of proto stompers approving this would just increase them and this time they will have a better argument.
This sounds like you are talking about pub matches, as I noted previously mechanical balance based on pubs, at least until more robust matchmaking is in place, isn't a very effective route to take. Clones in pubs cost nothing, and lower meta fits cost less in both SP and ISK meaning that the risk factor for use of low meta is fundamentally lower than for using high meta. In a PC match where clones cost ISK then you are right using low meta carries a greater risk in some ways than it's more effective high meta counterpart but running low meta in a PC match as also usually bad tactics which as noted in this thread shouldn't be rewarded as well as effective tactics/team play. It's also worth noting that it is not "running" the high meta gear which CCP Nothin is talking about rewarding there, it is the effective use of such gear, i.e. players being rewarded for the effect they have on the battlefield, which considering that WP are ostensibly a measure of tactical accomplishment, rewarding effective action is precisely what they are meant to do.
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Posted - 2013.08.05 17:32:00 -
[111] - Quote
Still hoping to get input from other support logi regarding current equipment earnings and behavior as compared to Chrome.
Cheers,
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Posted - 2013.08.17 15:50:00 -
[112] - Quote
While it is slightly outside the direct purview of the OP I would be very interested in the feedback of other logi regarding how the recent nerfs to eHP and the proposed/upcoming buffs to armor tanking may effect your earnings. Also any other major bugs are mechanics that have impacted earnings and value of various bits of equipment between Chrome and present.
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Posted - 2013.08.20 05:11:00 -
[113] - Quote
Update time stamp 8/19/2013
I have been testing the injector and repair tool heavily during the last more than a week, here are the current conclusions.
Injectors suffer from the current animation, the 'cycle time' to actually revive someone using the new "O" trigger is excessively long and frequently results in getting both the Logi and the recipient killed. I have reverted to actively swapping my injector to the 'active' position and then reviving with the shoulder buttons, this cuts down on the 'cycle time' and allows for more successful revivals.
Even having reverted to the old method the injector is still currently struggling. The targeting isn't broken the way it was before, so points to CCP for that, thanks guys but it is still frequent that a downed merc must be injected 2-3 times before the revival 'takes' rather than working on the first try. This again leads to more frequent deaths for both the needle user and the downed merc.
Stacking both of these mechanical shortcomings on top of the current revival earnings cap (is this a bug or an undocumented change?) causes effective use, and doubly so effective earnings, from the injector to still be in a bad place.
Repair Tool The vanishing reticle bug persists compounding prior lock on woes, layered over the current earnings cap (which could use an overhaul) and range limitations (which are totally understandable) it puts the repair tool in a bad place. The UI still giving no feedback about the earnings cap is the icing on the cake making the passive AoE of repper hives a more effective earnings option (and with all the lock on issues arguably a more effective tactical one at present as well).
The earnings value for both Hives of all kinds and Uplinks of all types comes down to "spam and pray" and some solid WP can indeed be gained this way in the right situations provided a depot is present to refresh and swap fits. Still these earnings are situational and their raw numbers aside are somewhat unsatisfying due to the very "fire and forget" nature of current "spam it all then cross your fingers and hope you earn something" meta.
RE - These remain uncommon even in PC battles but seem reasonably effective, also as a more aggressive item their earnings aren't as subject to the issues seen among other types of equipment.
Prox - Very rarely seen and even more rarely seen to accomplish anything, further testing is warranted but initial impressions currently point toward some kind of a buff being called for.
Scanners - Still no WP attached as of yet, thus outside the scope of this thread.
In closing here is another thread of mine related to equipment diversification, please give it a look and let me know what you think.
Cheers,
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Posted - 2013.08.25 03:25:00 -
[114] - Quote
RKKR wrote:No changes for this in 1.4, we also get more armor to repair with the same WP-cap due to balancing of armor-plates, any thoughts about this?
Improvements to the basic UI function will help as targeting for both the repair tool and injector are currently stumbling blocks.
The change to explosive weapons damage (whenever it comes, not sure if it made the cut for 1.4) will help, as well other factors that enhance the use of armor because more armor buffer on the field leads to a greater chance for earning war points through repair.
We may be getting the new WP system when 1.5 rolls out but until then/until the current repair tool cap on WP earnings is overhauled, there won't be a significant change in the overall earnings because the cap will still kick in at the same level.
The major change will be that we can reach that cap faster/more often once there is more armor on the field and the repair tool bugs are eliminated.
Summery - 1.4 will increase how quickly a Logi hits cap, possibly netting an incidental increase in WP earnings but also creating a much larger pool of HP to be repped without any earnings attached to it.
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Posted - 2013.08.25 03:26:00 -
[115] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:I've been saying this since closed beta, maybe the memo got lost...?
Me too, this thread was started during closed beta, Codex build I believe.
I am hoping that my inference regarding the new WP system being slated for 1.5 is correct and that as part of the new system many of the current concerns will be addressed.
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Posted - 2013.08.25 03:30:00 -
[116] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:So I've started using the Core Focus repair tool a bit more.
I've noticed that I can get more +25s faster than a STD tool. Have you noticed this?
Yes the triage rate does seem to be faster when using the Core, however it does not seem to effect total earnings.
I believe I remeber a Dev post somewhere (maybe even in here) stating that the cycle method was no longer in place, but I'm not sure that entirely matches my in game observations. I'm not sure where the disconnect is but something still seems to be kind of "off" about how repair awards are given, in fact I think there may be more than one thing which is off when it comes to earnings, scaling, the cap and the contrast between repper hives and repair tools. I'm currently debating giving a full post feature to this concept but I haven't gotten around to churning it out.
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Posted - 2013.08.26 13:43:00 -
[117] - Quote
Nekrokult wrote:In my opinion WP gained by supporting should come from HP delivered alone, not cycles or gear quality.
Assign X WP value to Y HP value.
This enables cycles and amount of HP delivered per cycle to stay the same, yet better gear grants you more points quicker and enables you to complete that task and go back to shooting (for example) faster, thus awarding better equipped players with less time lost.
Logi A uses Militia Nanite Injector and Militia Repair Tool, Logi B uses both Proto: when reviving and fully healing a player, they both gain exactly the same WP, yet the better equipped one will earn that in way less time. It's exactly like an AR: with better gear you earn time, because with the same aiming skill, you'll kill the enemy faster, yet earn the same WP.
This is functionally the thing that the OP suggests, for illustrative purposes let's look at the scenario you outlined above but with both Logi A and B using only injectors.
Logi A uses a Militia Nanite Injector
Logi B uses a Proto Nanite Injector
In this case the injector of Logi B must grant more WP per use to maintain an "X WP per Y HP" earnings paradigm.
The speed of the injection is a constant, and even if it weren't the raw HP restored, and thus the WP value earned, must be higher to maintain proper scaling.
This effect is highlighted[/b] by the application of the Repair Tool, as that compounds the situation but a Repair Tool is not required to see the distortion to the 'risk vs reward' dynamic created by the current system. Gear quality determines HP restored so the difference here is semantic. Quoted from the OP
Cross Atu wrote:Solution: Establish a direct X HP restored = Y WP earned ratio
Nekrokult wrote:About the "auto-injector" using circle button, it should be slower than having the needle out and pressing R1 because itGÇÖs the same as swapping weapons: while you are trying to use the circle your primary weapon is still out, so if an enemy engages you, all you have to do is shoot; if you have the needle out, you'll have the delay of swapping to the weapon before being able to shoot. So you decide where want to lose time: in initial animation, or after.
I disagree here, it was billed as a utility for Mercs on the field and making it as slow/slower than the manual method removes the utility of the feature. Even were I to be persuaded that it should be no faster than the manual method it should most certainly not be slower than the manual method which is where things stand now. The 'old' manual method is substantially faster than the new "O" method, so much so that the new method is getting Mercs killed and in its current state borders on completely useless. This is a shame because the concept of the new method is a great one, it just requires a more polished (in this case quicker) iteration to become useful.
It is also incorrect that use of the "O" method is more combat viable due to weapons. The cycle does not easily break once triggered which takes your weapon out of the action, but actually does so for [i]longer than a manual switch because the cycle time on the "O" animation is slower than manually swapping to the needle, using it, and then swapping back to a weapon. Furthermore it is even easier to 'break' a revive cycle through use of the manual method because the 'cycle animation' begins upon injection not upon weapon swap, thus allowing a quick switch back to a weapon when called for where the "O" method has the Merc bound into a longer animation cycle.
To reiterate, currently the "O" method is on balance slower than the manual method and is also more cumbersome to use due to the time the merc will spend locked into the injection process. It should be neither slower, nor more cumbersome, both these aspects need a fix.
Thanks for posting and keep the feedback coming
Cheers,
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Posted - 2013.08.26 15:11:00 -
[118] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Cross Atu wrote:"Balance WP to healing given" I imagine a counter to this point of view is that you must also balance WP and healing given to the advantage that MORE healing gives to the team. At some point healing more HP from revives/triage could disproportionately favor the higher level healing, which WOULD help armor tankers' meta eventually, but this could tip balancing.
Honestly, it should do this. WP are supposed to be a representation of the tactical value an action provides to your squad and team so balancing the rate of gain/potential WP earnings against the tactical value of an action/effect is bad practice.
That being said balancing the amount of WPs gained is absolutely vital so as not to become game breaking, because again WP are supposed to be representative of the tactical value given your team by the action/effect in question.
Obviously no system is likely to be completely perfect but being sure that there is a universal baseline is key.
In the present system that would be +50 WP per kill as a general starting point.
In the more granular system that would be "X damage done to hostile forces/HP restored to friendly forces = Y WP earned."
At some point shield transporters should start being given WP as well, and reps from Logi LAVs should earn WP, etc but that's almost a thread on its own. I do agree that WP must be considered when looking at meta balance, you are absolutely correct, the problem I have is when there is a 'higher tactical value should trade off with lower potential WP earnings' situation developing.
Quote:A direct X HP = Y WP may not be the BEST from a balance perspective because eventually it could induce farming. What you may have said earlier, but I didn't catch would be a higher limit on when the cooldown kicks in for each tier of good.
For example:
STD repair tool (+2 WP/ HP healed up to 200 HP every 2 mins)
ADV repair tool (+2 WP/HP healed up to 400 HP every 2 mins)
PRO repair tool (+2 WP/HP healed up to 600 HP every 2 mins)
So you would increase the max WP you can get per cooldown period, and the rate you get WP at because of the nature of repair tools' scaling up their repair rate.
I've been leaning towards the suggestion provided by I-Shayz-I. That being said your suggestion would also be an improvement over the current method. One big problem with the Repair Tool WP cap is actually not the Repair Tool itself but the lack of feedback from the UI. If the Merc were aware of the cap and cool down in real time during the match then that would be less problematic but even with a UI fix the cap is less than ideal because it puts tactical play at odds with earnings (or can at times). A 100% solution is challenging however because the farming of previous builds was unequivocally a problem and a repeat needs to be prevented.
See injectors response below, due to space constraints. |
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Posted - 2013.08.26 15:22:00 -
[119] - Quote
Quote:For injectors you could pair HP repaired/revived in a period as well, although a militia injector on an armor heavy may give just as many WP as a proto injector used on a shield scout. So its harder to balance risk/reward.
I still like the idea of WP for injections tied to events following the revive. So a revive could be +10 WP, then if the receiver gets a kill within 10 seconds after being revived the injector could get a kill assist. And if the receiver also recovers their shields before dieing again, the injector also gets another +10 pts.
The action after revive system you describe is great on paper but doesn't hold up well on the field. Here are some examples of what I mean;
Example: Mercs clear an area after taking control, friendlies are revived but earn only 10 WP due to no hostile presence in the area.
Result: Encourages "rambo revives" over secure revives due to earnings potential. Provides minimal earnings value to running high end gear as compared to low.
Example: Merc revive team mate in a hot zone, use top gear and body shield but both Mercs are overwhelmed.
Result: When/if hostile forces win for any reason value of the revive is reduced. Incentive to use top gear equal to or less than current system.
Example: Merc revives team mate in a hot zone, use of top gear and body shield, revived Merc survives but makes the sound tactical choice to withdraw to cover, gets no kills.
Result: When/if the revived merc gets zero kills for any reason value of the revive is reduced. Incentive to use top gear equal to or less than current system.
General Note: A fundamental problem with the 'action after revive' method, despite its conceptual appeal, is that Mercs kill and die fast in Dust 514. Seconds matter during a gun fight, and movement from point A to point B usually takes far more time than a single fire fight. When combined these factors result in timer being near useless, either a Merc will be in a firefight when revived and will likely die/flee, or a Merc will be outside of a firefight when revived and will be unlikely to trigger the timer related bonuses.
In theory if the "gets a kill" bonus and the "recovers full shields" bonus were made equal that that does level the playing field somewhat, in fact tilting it a bit toward out of combat revives (not a bad thing per se) but that still does not address the risk vs reward scaling of using better gear. A Merc outside of combat will regen shields at the same rate regardless of their armor %, and a Merc in combat (presuming they don't die) will not be regenerating shields anyway, and even an 80% needle on most tanked Heavy frames won't be giving enough HP back to let the Heavy survive the fire that just dropped him in the first place (this is of course more situational, but the instances where that extra armor will matter are not common enough to warrant the guaranteed increase in SP, ISK, CPU/PG cost that comes with using the best injectors).
Regardless of method, scaled earnings are requisite if use of better gear is to be supported rather than use of lessor gear encouraged.
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Posted - 2013.08.27 22:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
Nekrokult wrote:
Will explain my opinion better on this:
The advantage with combat is before the animation for reviving starts: If youGÇÖre trying to use GÇ£circle methodGÇ¥ on a fallen merc, spamming it, if someone engages you before the animation starts (before you actually hit the right spot), you have your weapon out and can shoot straight away. But if you have your needle out, youGÇÖll need to perform a switch before you can shoot the enemy, losing more time that with GÇ£circle methodGÇ¥. After the animation starts, itGÇÖs all the same, the advantage is lost.
So, I still see as fair that said minor advantage would have a minor delay to compensate. But itGÇÖs not game breaking whatsoever, so itGÇÖs probably for the best that no delay is introduced, seen that it may cause more problems for the worth of it.
I'm wondering here, are you aware of the "quick tap" method for weapon switching where you do not have to bring up the radial menu at all? If not that that might explain the discrepancy in our experiences here. Viewed from the angle of needing to bring up the radial as part of weapon switching the "O" and the manual method are very close in time to use.
When using the 'quick tap' method a manual swap from a needle becomes fast enough as to be totally incidental and thus push the manual method into a much faster space than the "O", where even the time spent on the manual is safer because it can be done from cover prior to the revive (and where the time to swap back happens as you move into cover or into firing position).
Viewed in that light the "O" method is both substantially slower and less versatile.
To be totally open, I should also note that I very much find both methods to be excessively slow and in need of streamlining at this point, a stance which may play into my other perceptions on the subject as well, I just can't stand how often I see Mercs and Medics both die because of the 'cycle time' required for a revival regardless of the type. In my perception the current speed of both methods diminishes their tactical value substantially, and I believe, unduly.
Quote:P.S.: A question just crossed my mind while writing this, did the GÇ£circle methodGÇ¥ ever conflicted with a hack point (merc fallen right next to an enemy objective)?
I'm not sure of this as I have not had the bug which you are referencing even with the manual method (although I have read about it on the forums). That is an interesting question and I wonder if anyone else can shed further light on it.
Thanks again for the continuing feedback
Cheers,
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Posted - 2013.09.02 15:37:00 -
[121] - Quote
Nekrokult wrote:Nekrokult wrote:
P.S.: A question just crossed my mind while writing this, did the GÇ£circle methodGÇ¥ ever conflicted with a hack point (merc fallen right next to an enemy objective)?
Cross Atu wrote:I'm not sure of this as I have not had the bug which you are referencing even with the manual method (although I have read about it on the forums). That is an interesting question and I wonder if anyone else can shed further light on it.
Seems it does create problems: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=105952&find=unread
Good call on the link, thanks |
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Posted - 2013.09.02 16:30:00 -
[122] - Quote
Princeps Marcellus wrote:You've done a fantastic job, Cross. Thank you!
Thanks mate, glad the thread is providing some value for you
Cheers,
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Posted - 2013.09.02 16:36:00 -
[123] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Hmm...not reward related, but curious to see if the repair tool gets aim assist/friction.
I'm also interested in that. It's right up there with my kicking around ideas for the "Nanohives, repair tools, needles & you" update for this thread.
The sneak preview is that the current cap systems are not cohesive with each other and are causing equipment issues that go beyond the specific items they're directly attached to. |
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Posted - 2013.09.12 19:03:00 -
[124] - Quote
I've been testing the Active Scanner lately, and am now very interested in how the WP earnings on it will work. So far all my theories seem off base because they would lead to certain types of scanner having better earnings than others.
For example if the scanner awards WP based on hostiles killed while they are 'lit up' by the scan then the scanners with longer range or longer duration would both on average earn higher WP than those with the highest precision but lowest range.
Similarly if the WP are earned based on number of targets highlighted certain scanners will be more effective earners than others.
The one method which might scale properly that I've come up with so far would be earnings based on the profile of the object/merc scanned. The drawback here is that if scanning itself earns the WP rather than an action taken against a scanned target, the scanner becomes even more farmable than the closed beta repair tool.
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Posted - 2013.09.12 19:26:00 -
[125] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Cross Atu wrote:I've been testing the Active Scanner lately, and am now very interested in how the WP earnings on it will work. So far all my theories seem off base because they would lead to certain types of scanner having better earnings than others.
For example if the scanner awards WP based on hostiles killed while they are 'lit up' by the scan then the scanners with longer range or longer duration would both on average earn higher WP than those with the highest precision but lowest range.
Similarly if the WP are earned based on number of targets highlighted certain scanners will be more effective earners than others.
The one method which might scale properly that I've come up with so far would be earnings based on the profile of the object/merc scanned. The drawback here is that if scanning itself earns the WP rather than an action taken against a scanned target, the scanner becomes even more farmable than the closed beta repair tool.
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Why couldn't they have it balanced in terms of max points per minute, like triage? One question would be too, if you illuminate equipment, and IT is destroyed, do you get a few points for that? They would have to be careful how they program scanners though too. What if 5 people scan the same target and he dies? Are there 5 bonuses? Do you split one bonus? I know that you can have more than one scan's illumination active at a time, so could you get double or quadruple the points for scanning all at once?
They're adding a granulated WP awards system in future, and I believe the Active Scanner rewards are coming at the same time so overlapping scans will likely share the single award pool.
As to the first part, well the current triage system is badly broken. It was fine as a stop gap measure to prevent farming while still allowing some WP on the Repper but as a long term solution it is badly lacking.
The UI provides no in game feedback for it, earnings simply stop. It does not scale based on the two types of rewards, and it incentivises less tactical game play. It fails almost completely at half of its intended purpose. One half, stopping farming, it does a good job of, the other half, rewarding tactical game play for support character who are in the thick of combat making a meaningful contribution to their team - i.e. sustaining the risk vs reward paradigm of the game - it fails at because the cap can be reached so quickly, and lasts so long that the active support and repair of 2 or more squad members is almost never rewarded, as repping a single merc will frequently push into the cap.
In general cap or diminishing returns systems are less than optimal because they are almost always still farmable and they bottleneck the tactical play of legitimate players. Further since the WP earnings of Mercs based on kills are not subject to caps, cooldowns, or diminishing returns it distorts the risk vs reward paradigm in game and biases it towards a 'kills only' mentality where effective team play such as holding a defensive position, tactical infiltration, suppression, etc. are all under rewarded if not completely unrewarded.
Farming WP is of course a problem that does grievous harm to the risk vs reward balance in game, but most cap and cool down systems are almost as bad, with their negative effects being compounded by every from of earnings which is not subject to such limitations.
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:25:00 -
[126] - Quote
1.5 has the new WP system so this thread is going to undergo a huge renovation once the results of that testing are received.
I invite anyone who consistently deploys with equipment on their fits to join in the testing and discussion.
A focus on the scaling of WP and whether that mirrors the risk vs reward scaling will of course remain central, but mechanical aspects that impact earnings will also be included.
Looking forward to hearing from all of you regarding your results in the new system.
Cheers,
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:30:00 -
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Beren Hurin wrote:Cross Atu wrote:1.5 has the new WP system so this thread is going to undergo a huge renovation once the results of that testing are received.
I invite anyone who consistently deploys with equipment on their fits to join in the testing and discussion.
A focus on the scaling of WP and whether that mirrors the risk vs reward scaling will of course remain central, but mechanical aspects that impact earnings will also be included.
Looking forward to hearing from all of you regarding your results in the new system.
Cheers,
Cross I will want to pay close attention and will provide input. I think special care should be paid to the supposedly incoming squad order changes as well. They should be a way to try and get maximum WP when possible.
This is a key point and I'm quoting to make sure it can get more eyes on it. Any changes to the squad order system will impact earnings and all testing results should clearly state if they were earned with or without use of the squad order, keeping our data clear is imperative when making assessments of something like the WP system.
Thanks Beren for bringing this up.
Cheers,
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Posted - 2013.11.13 20:10:00 -
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Would love a CCP update regarding progress on this issue, the Risk vs Reward paradigm is key to overall game health.
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Posted - 2014.01.20 06:28:00 -
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This issue becomes even more relevant and problematic if the new equipment related logistics bonuses CCP is leaning towards are actually applied. A DevBlog on this subject (or at least an update) would be very appreciated.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.01.20 23:18:00 -
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Bradric Banewolf wrote:
To be honest, and logis won't like this, I feel that rep tools should get 10 to 15 pts per like scanners and nanohives. They should not be racking up dbl orbitals by themselves or riding the top of the leaderboards going 1/8 w/4500 wp's
That's not role specific that's situational and any role can pull it off, I've been in games where HMG heavies did it, snipers have done it, HAVs have consistently done it in more than one build, etc
Granted many of those have to have a positive kdr in match to pull that score off, but their role is to kill infantry so all that's saying is that they have to be fulfilling their primary role focus effectively, which makes sense. As an aside vehicle pilots and AV guys don't have to pull a positive kdr to top the boards, it helps certainly but for their roles it isn't required either.
Quote:"I got 5,000 wp's, but my team got slaughtered?!" Everything in this game that is rewarding should be hard work.
Obviously this is hyperbole, but there's a point to be made here, support roles frequently get the most work when their team is hard pressed, a logi with hives a needle and a repair tool is most likely to have high WP earnings in a match where their team is taking heavy casualties because the potential for them to earn WP is so much higher in such situations, there are just more friendlies to repair and revive i.e. more WPs to be earned.
Quote:The shields and armor sacrifice for logis is perfect. It makes you better in tactics to support the team, and stay alive. I would go so far as to say that logis an anti armor players have better stick skills than snipers and assault players. It's the risk in those jobs, and the speed required to do them makes you sacrifice armor protection. And when will anti armor truly become a class? It just an assault suit with a swarm launcher equiped?! New thread coming soon.
No role should be 100% bound to either armor or shields as a type of tank, that diminishes player choice, innovation and the sandbox. Logistics suits having less base value speed and eHP than Assault suits prior to including skill buffs and mods does make sense, they're optimized differently in development. That being said a loadout that requires more SP and/or ISK to field and is purely defense focused should be very survivable regardless of what frame it's built on, clearly a tanked scout shouldn't have more eHP than a Heavy but nor should a 'glass cannon' built assault suit have more eHP than a tank fit logistics suit.
Things like choice of tank, focus on speed, profile, average paper dps, et al should be left to the creativity and choice of the players it should not be hardwired into the game code, that flies in the face of the sandbox concept upon which Dust is built.
I do agree that the AV role could use development into a more diverse and vibrant option for players to employ, support could use that development more fully as well (even though support does have more options than AV currently). I'll make one of those dreaded EVE comparisons and close by pointing out that there are much more diverse potential fleet doctrines and roles in EVE than there are squad compositions in Dust and even just focusing on the hulls/frames that have "Logistics" in the name EVE provides a lot more specialization and player ability to develop that support role.
Dust is built from infantry vs infantry gun battles, but it becomes a truly great game by including risk vs reward and providing a depth and breadth of other play options outside of that I v I dynamic, the health of the game is bound deeply with the health of the sandbox.
My 0.02 ISK,
Cross
PS ~ thanks for posting, we may not see eye to eye on every point but constructive discussion is exactly how we find ideas to help the game get better.
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Posted - 2014.02.03 21:17:00 -
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Topic still needs attention, 1.8 alterations to equipment make it an ideal patch for the fix.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.02.04 01:37:00 -
[132] - Quote
I Shot You wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:Thanks for such admirably patient posting. A reply to this thread is long overdue, but here goes.
First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
Some historical musings about repair rewards specifically:
In Chromosome, the repair rewards were changed from the old cyclical system. We replaced that with two new rewards:
Guardian - 35 WP - You're actively repairing a player who kills a target
Triage - 25 WP - You repair someone who has taken damage within the last 60 seconds
The primary reason for switching from the old cyclical rewards to the above was exploitation -- with the old system, we saw players coming up with all sorts of cunning schemes for racking up record amounts of WP in record times. The new rewards are more difficult to exploit, as obtaining them requires interaction between the teams (and by interaction, I mean shooting the other team in the faceplate). As you would have to coordinate with players on both teams to exploit this (something that shouldn't be easy in e.g. instant battles), they should be more robust against exploitation. With the new rewards we also added a (tweakable) cooldown to how often you could earn rewards to have a fall back in case someone found a clever new way to game the system.
The new rewards are compatible with scaling based on the quality of equipment used and it's just a question of investing us finding some development time to make the WP reward system support it.
In the meantime, we'd love to hear your feedback on how the repair rewards are performing to make adjustments if necessary. Do you feel that the reward levels reasonable? Do you feel that reward experience you get consistent (i.e. do you get rewards when you expect to get them)?
we should get wp for mobile cru's spawns
Agreed, vehicles should earn mCRU WP. If the unlimited nature is a concern to CCP they can simply apply some form of cool down on earnings, but either way mCRU do work and should gain reward for it.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.02.04 01:39:00 -
[133] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:heres an idea for making needles better wp wise- give them warpoints based on the % armor hp they restore-i.e. 50% restore=50 wp, 100% restore=100 wp's
I believe the posters in this thread have generally supported an idea of this type.
The specific iteration was to take the current values, apply them to the MLT/STD version and then give the others increased earnings in line with the additional HP they restored. This would be relatively easy to apply once the "X WP per Y HP repaired" ratio was worked out for repair tools (as suggested by this thread).
Thanks for the post
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.02.04 21:59:00 -
[134] - Quote
Thanks to all new posters for adding input and/or helping keep this topic in the eyes of the community.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.02.13 04:11:00 -
[135] - Quote
Reiterating that if CCP moves ahead with racial binding of equipment use (via racial skill buffs making certain equipments optimal use tied exclusively to one race) that having improper scaling on some parts of the equipment line will not only continue to cause distortion but that such distortions will be magnified under the proposed 1.8 system.
Further feedback from CCP regarding steps being taken to correct this, and their proposed eta for implementation, would be valuable at this point.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.02.25 06:55:00 -
[136] - Quote
Delanus Turgias wrote:Thought I had deja vu and then I realized this is the exact same thread from back in the day. I still can't believe that we've been asking for this crap for 2 goddamn years and CCP still hasn't done a single thing about it. FFS.
Posting in this thread does result in a sense of deja vu at times I quite agree.
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Posted - 2014.02.26 04:42:00 -
[137] - Quote
low genius wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Reiterating that if CCP moves ahead with racial binding of equipment use (via racial skill buffs making certain equipments optimal use tied exclusively to one race) that having improper scaling on some parts of the equipment line will not only continue to cause distortion but that such distortions will be magnified under the proposed 1.8 system.
Further feedback from CCP regarding steps being taken to correct this, and their proposed eta for implementation, would be valuable at this point.
Cheers,
Cross why is that a problem?
Are you asking why further distorting the risk v reward paradigm is a problem, or how the proposed changes deepen the problem?
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Posted - 2014.03.06 00:19:00 -
[138] - Quote
Thanks for taking the time to post
Also, more generally, I'd really like to get a more current Dev response regarding the state of Equipment and it's changes in 1.8, especially with regards to the proper scaling of earnings within the risk vs reward context.
Even without the internal scaling issues, the new skill sets implied for 1.8 will have a profound effect on the possible earnings by race as each equipment type holds disparity between possible and potential earnings. There's a lot of ground to cover and it can be done much more effectively if we have a current statement from CCP to use as our baseline.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.03.06 06:41:00 -
[139] - Quote
jaksol returns wrote:CCP Nothin wrote:Thanks for such admirably patient posting. A reply to this thread is long overdue, but here goes.
First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
Some historical musings about repair rewards specifically:
In Chromosome, the repair rewards were changed from the old cyclical system. We replaced that with two new rewards:
Guardian - 35 WP - You're actively repairing a player who kills a target
Triage - 25 WP - You repair someone who has taken damage within the last 60 seconds
The primary reason for switching from the old cyclical rewards to the above was exploitation -- with the old system, we saw players coming up with all sorts of cunning schemes for racking up record amounts of WP in record times. The new rewards are more difficult to exploit, as obtaining them requires interaction between the teams (and by interaction, I mean shooting the other team in the faceplate). As you would have to coordinate with players on both teams to exploit this (something that shouldn't be easy in e.g. instant battles), they should be more robust against exploitation. With the new rewards we also added a (tweakable) cooldown to how often you could earn rewards to have a fall back in case someone found a clever new way to game the system.
The new rewards are compatible with scaling based on the quality of equipment used and it's just a question of investing us finding some development time to make the WP reward system support it.
In the meantime, we'd love to hear your feedback on how the repair rewards are performing to make adjustments if necessary. Do you feel that the reward levels reasonable? Do you feel that reward experience you get consistent (i.e. do you get rewards when you expect to get them)?
wait are you saying you want to make proto stomper the only winners? im wounded CCP just leave it at if you kill a more advanced gear you get more points not "HAHA im a proto not only can I chrush you utterly I also get more points for stopming on you again and again! fun right? YAH!" you will just make it even harder for new players to move forward
Better scaling is not equal to higher raw rewards.
As an example using a proto Rail Rifle does not grant you higher raw earnings however it's increased damage potential leads to a commensurate increase in earnings potential. That's the type of earnings being discussed within this thread.
Hope that clears things up some
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.03.06 07:05:00 -
[140] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:I forgot about this old thing. What is the topic and I will try to add.
The TL;DR is as follows.
Equipment currently does not properly scale it's risk vs reward. Both the scaling between equipment types and within many of the equipment lines is distorted in such a way that it incentiveizes the use of low meta gear by giving higher potential rewards to the lower meta gear.
Suggested fix amounts to; scale equipment so that it's methodology is in line with that of the AR/other light weapons.
For more details feel free to ask, I just figured a summation would give a bitter place to start at this point
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.03.06 20:24:00 -
[141] - Quote
***First things first****
It's not about raw total earnings. Let me say that again just so that there's no mistake, this is not about raw total earnings, it's about scaling.
In response to your specific points.
Hives last longer and/or give reps.
Not all hives work the same way, as hives supply more per 'tick', thus as tactical value goes up, potential earnings go down. This is exactly the opposite of how things should function. For example a hive repping 70 armor per tick will give fewer ticks and thus less overall earnings than a hive repping 20 armor per tick.
Scanners last longer.
Some types do, others have differing effects, I'll have to see the new numbers and how they interact with the new 'snapshot' mechanic + racial skills before I can really assess this one. It's possible that the internal line scaling is actually fine here.
Uplinks have reduced time (allowing more mercs to get in before the UL is destroyed) or more spawns
The internal scaling on uplinks, last time I tested it, was perhaps the best in the equipment line.
Tools have better range, dual beams and rep more (allowing more targets to be repped more quickly).
Those are tactical advantages and as long as there isn't a 'X healed = Y WP earned' mechanic in place faster/more healing will result in lower potential earnings, further with a cap/cool down in place faster reps/earnings could lower potential total earnings even with the 'X healed = Y WP earned' mechanic in place. Then there's the compounding issue with needles.
Needles have more repped armor.
Which is a great tactical advantage that comes at the cost of more SP, ISK, CPU/PG invested and has zero additional payoff. Further running higher meta needles lowers total potential earnings because it's repping armor without gaining any WP from doing so, thus effectively punishing support players for playing their role more effectively.
Also the problem with any 'gain WP from the actions of the revived merc system is that most 'clean' revives aren't going to be happening under direct fire thus such systems/timers would as a side effect punish support players who make sure to clear the area before they start reviving fallen teammates. The best fix to needles I've heard of so far is to give the base 60 for the revive (or even drop it to 50 if testing after deployment shows that to be called for) and give the WP for the extra armor repped on the other needles. Those earnings can hardly be considered game breaking because they are present already, this just prevents use of better gear from removing the potential to gain them.
General Equipment Scaling
All of the above addresses only scaling within each item type, not the equipment line in general, which has become more important in light of the proposed racial skill changes in 1.8 as a lack of balance within the whole of the equipment line will now directly impact the viability of the entire racial sub-type of that logi, and by extension an aspect of game content/diversity.
It is also worth noting that the earnings potential of the equipment line as a whole is getting nerfed in 1.8 due to the general nerf to equipment function, lower stats on tools, uplink nerfs and lessor clusters from hives etc. retract the possible earnings from support actions, causing scaling issues to become more painful.
Further worth noting is the SP, ISK, CPU/PG costs to field such things. I have all related skills5 and on a proto suit, running full proto equipment means I cannot use proto tank, my weapon is meta 1, and I have no damage mods but even thought my fitting is proto, and not combat capable, it still costs more than my proto HMG fitting, with full proto tanking mods. My support fitting costs almost three times as much as my HAV fittings in ISK and millions more SP, but the HAV is less likely to be destroyed, much less end the match with negative KDR.
Support earnings have the potential to be high when run well, no question, but so long as it takes more SP and ISK to field them then 'risk vs reward' dictates that they should be looking at a higher earnings potential, anything else is an imbalance by definition, just the same as having a MLT sniper rifle do the same work as a Thales would be.
Cheers,
Cross
EDIT: You're right by the way, this is the same topic we've been on for awhile since it's been an unfixed issue within the game starting in closed beta and extending to the present.
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Posted - 2014.03.07 15:00:00 -
[142] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:The whole suit/equipment thing is going to be interesting, I hope I like it. I think one thing that can help is a WP cooldown indicator. I know I cap WP from my tool sometimes but I can't tell if the reason I'm not getting paid is because of cooldown, the glitch where WP don't show up when earned (does it to me in the beginning of a match, a lot) or the game isn't registering. I would take a notification like we have now that just flashes a zero. I like to know how much my stuff is use and knowing that I am in cooldown but my placement is good would be nice.
I think the scaling of WP using the tiers is a good idea to a degree. On one hand it seems to make more sense -WP wise- to use cheap stuff and I do see that way of looking at it but on the other hand -coming from experience- I seem to make more WP using better stuff in almost every situation. I am on the fence.
When I saw the topic pop back up I remembered what the last thing we were debating and I saw the newer posts and thought it was the same discussion.
I like the idea of the new support racial skills. The concept is great but the current iteration really leaves a lot to be desired on many fronts.
- Want uplinks? Yep, you're Amarr... you know those guys who already have a weaker PG
- Want a slayer Logi? Just run the Cal suit (still) it's light, mobile(for a logi), gives those stacked shields and the hives bonus.
- Want a slayer-support hybrid with close support? Gal it is, you'll have perma scans with the new changes and you can stack enough armor on that beast to stand in fire for a bit while dishing out the pain.
- Want to provide reps? Choose the light, fragile, fast Minm.... wah? Why are we giving a repair tool bonus to the one logi suit which partially speed tanks?
Not only does the lack of diversity in racial equipment cost a lot of tactical value in player choices (thanks to the incoming nerf), and also make it all too ease to infer the fits of logi you see deployed just by looking at them, but it also buffs certain equipment over others and starts to push given roles onto races which honestly lore aside seem to be poorly considered roles. Hives would make a bit more sense on the logi with a sidearm, they're build to be more combat oriented. Uplinks on the fast fragile suit. Reps on the armor tanking, and slower, Gal suit. And scans on the Cal skirmisher (support can be run in a skirmish manner as well, does not have to imply combat per se). I know that's out of line with the flavor of who built what but as much as I like lore it shouldn't be the only, or honestly even the primary, determining factor.
As to earning more WP from use of high quality gear, that's anecdotal and it's only part of the story.
Here's what I mean; we're not talking about raw earnings, we're talking risk vs reward so if for example you earn 33% more, lose the same number of fits, and are running fits which cost 70-120% more ISK (and vastly more SP) the rewards system is still giving incentive to use the tactically weaker option over the top tier option.
Even more to the point, when you're earning these higher rewards are you running with a squad of your corp mates?
Running with a solid squad increases earnings all on it's own, have you tried running a large number of matches solo in both STD and PRO gear and comparing your earnings (after including the cost of your fit losses)? Are your net earnings higher running pure pro equipment?
It's anecdotal for me to say, but my own earnings certainly are not higher running PRO than STD in solo or pick up squads. And my earnings in general are higher running with a corp squad/squad of vets I know even if I'm in MLT gear.
I've broken 4k in a match through both pure support and running "slayer" but in each case I've been running with a squad, even just having the defend order up gives a 20% boost to potential earnings all on its own.
But none of those things change the mechanical state of internal equipment balance.
I agree about having a notification, it would be a marked improvement over the current situation. But notification or no, earnings cap or no, the baseline earnings type should be granulated and based on the actual HP repped. That creates a more dynamic system, addresses balance concerns, and makes intuitive sense.
The last line there is one of the key features of this discussion which kind of gets lost sometimes.
To whit What makes the most intuitive sense? because that's what players new to the game will be likely to expect and the less things make sense the weaker the NPE is and the fewer new players are going to enjoy the game and stick around.
As I've stated before, this thread doesn't exist because of my earnings, I can do well enough for myself, it exists because the current system doesn't make sense doesn't support new players and distorts the risk vs reward paradigm.
In the past few patches people have been complaining about "slayer logi" or "killer bees" etc. and how they run little in the way of support and weak support equipment. Well this should hardly be a surprise considering the broken mechanics on equipment, because as it stands running PRO equipment means you have a weaker eHP, weaker DPS, have to invest millions more SP, and can nearly double your fittings cost... while also decreasing your potential maximum earnings.
Aside from a few die hards like myself, who do things like carry the rep tool even when it gives zero WP, players are not going to look at that situation and say "hey yeah, I'll spend more ISK, months more SP, die faster and kill slower to make the life of a team mate easier, sign me up!".
The changes in 1.8 nerf support hard, meaning new players are even less likely skill into it, making a proper scaling of rewards to provide incentive all the more important now.
0.02 ISK
Cross
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Posted - 2014.03.08 16:53:00 -
[143] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:I would fine with a WP system that rewarded me based off of the percentage of armor repped and to be honest I think it would incentivize players to use better gear and suits for the purpose intended.
I have three racial variants of logi suits at the advanced level. I use my Min for uplink deployment because of the speed and hack bonus, I hack after I deploy uplinks. I have a Gal for my for my dual rep suit and my dual hive suit and if I want to stay in battle longer and rep better I use an Amarr with a needle, Six tool and rep hives. I said that to say this. I don't mind the racial equipment bonus and to be honest it would more fit my style of loging.
If you would like, I can run stater, standard, advanced and proto gear for a week each and report back with the screenshots of the end results. Nothing better than real world data. You make good arguments for progressively better rewards for higher tier equipment. It is good to see a merc who is out working for real #logilove (my # on twitter for good logi matches) I played about 10 matches today about 1/3 in a corp squad, 1/3 in pickups and 1/3 solo and I place second in WP on my team almost every time and usually at least 4th in the whole 32.
I am not debating to try to stop you, I am debating to determine who is more correct and help articulate the problem better, without good data or well prepared points we have no chance of being heard. Many people confuse my up front way of voicing my opinion as trolling or being mean but it is just how I think. I am serious, if you want I will run different types of gear for a week each and report back with the tally. I will play the same as if I were in my favorite fit, I don't have any proto suits so I can't go to that level but I can give feedback up to the prototype suit level. I mainly use rep tools, they are my specialty.
Joined a one man squad today and he only beat me once in WP and it was in the first match, about half way through when I first joined him. He beat me by around 750 WP or so with a 40+/around 5 match, never got within 1000 WP after that. That is the only reason why I say that a good logi doing logi stuff doesn't need any help in the WP department. My problem is going 0/10 and making 250K and my logi being 50k each. I don't really care that much because I usually go like 1/5 and I usually make a profit. Kind of drunk and need to stop typing.
This post deserves a real and detailed response, but I haven't the time right now to give the proper one (yet)
However I felt it important to respond to one bit right out of the gate.
Thank you for continuing to debate and discuss the issue(s) and for being willing to help in testing.
Those are vitally important aspects for clarity and I personally appreciate the help in testing the ideas and conclusions that have been developed so far in this thread.
I too am debating for the sake of getting at the most accurate data in hopes of finding the most ideal answer in this case.
I more direct response will be forthcoming,
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.03.29 17:33:00 -
[144] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:I went proto Min logi and I am loving it. The tool bonus is great and the suit feels like it is special. It is the only suit I have SP in.
I took the plunge and have proto'ed all 4 racial suits. There's clearly a need for more time on the ground getting my feet under me before I can provide solid fits and feedback. One thing is becoming glaringly clear however, the cost to run a support logi throughout a match just went up because both the earnings (per fit lost, and to a lessor extent in general) just went down. Even with the new TTK Logi are not as survivable as they were, at least not support logi.
I've already found at least one 'slayer' fit under the current system and there very well may be more.
Unfortunately it's looking like, as predicted, the new changes punish support logi while having only mild-moderate effect on the 'slayer' builds.
Continued time on the ground may yield more. I'm also very interested in how your results continue to pan out as I'm trying to get impressions and feedback from as wide a pool of support players as possible (though many of the support logi I know have now gone scout instead, providing light support with higher survivability, which makes assessments harder).
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.03.30 00:02:00 -
[145] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Cross Atu wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:I would fine with a WP system that rewarded me based off of the percentage of armor repped and to be honest I think it would incentivize players to use better gear and suits for the purpose intended.
I have three racial variants of logi suits at the advanced level. I use my Min for uplink deployment because of the speed and hack bonus, I hack after I deploy uplinks. I have a Gal for my for my dual rep suit and my dual hive suit and if I want to stay in battle longer and rep better I use an Amarr with a needle, Six tool and rep hives. I said that to say this. I don't mind the racial equipment bonus and to be honest it would more fit my style of loging.
If you would like, I can run stater, standard, advanced and proto gear for a week each and report back with the screenshots of the end results. Nothing better than real world data. You make good arguments for progressively better rewards for higher tier equipment. It is good to see a merc who is out working for real #logilove (my # on twitter for good logi matches) I played about 10 matches today about 1/3 in a corp squad, 1/3 in pickups and 1/3 solo and I place second in WP on my team almost every time and usually at least 4th in the whole 32.
I am not debating to try to stop you, I am debating to determine who is more correct and help articulate the problem better, without good data or well prepared points we have no chance of being heard. Many people confuse my up front way of voicing my opinion as trolling or being mean but it is just how I think. I am serious, if you want I will run different types of gear for a week each and report back with the tally. I will play the same as if I were in my favorite fit, I don't have any proto suits so I can't go to that level but I can give feedback up to the prototype suit level. I mainly use rep tools, they are my specialty.
Joined a one man squad today and he only beat me once in WP and it was in the first match, about half way through when I first joined him. He beat me by around 750 WP or so with a 40+/around 5 match, never got within 1000 WP after that. That is the only reason why I say that a good logi doing logi stuff doesn't need any help in the WP department. My problem is going 0/10 and making 250K and my logi being 50k each. I don't really care that much because I usually go like 1/5 and I usually make a profit. Kind of drunk and need to stop typing.
This post deserves a real and detailed response, but I haven't the time right now to give the proper one (yet) However I felt it important to respond to one bit right out of the gate. Thank you for continuing to debate and discuss the issue(s) and for being willing to help in testing. Those are vitally important aspects for clarity and I personally appreciate the help in testing the ideas and conclusions that have been developed so far in this thread. I too am debating for the sake of getting at the most accurate data in hopes of finding the most ideal answer in this case. I more direct response will be forthcoming, Cheers, Cross Cross, Robot... Outstanding discussion and constructive comments. I would like to give you a hand with research or field testing if you need it. I've been getting into the logi scene quite heavily since 1.8 dropped and I moved my SP from Assaults to Logi and it is a surprisingly stark change. My play style is normally diametrically opposed to running a full support logi...I usually have excellent success with a dampened flanker that maximizes my rail rifle's long range advantage and getting critical uplinks in for the team to use. The transition to full logi is an entertaining one and challenging since I'm dying at a rate I haven't seen since I was sub-10mil SP. So...give me a holler and I'll gladly help out. Cross...you know where to find me.
Thanks very much Jay, adding the transitional aspect that your perspective brings to the table along with the focused way you attend to ideas would be a welcome asset here. I've gotten as far as "there's a problem that needs fixed" but as Deviil has helped illustrate the solution and/or it's presentation still calls for more polish. Thanks for the offer of help
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.04.22 15:48:00 -
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General bump for more feedback and some current Dev response.
Injectors are currently more and more scares on the field and quality ones even more so.
Equipment in general has a whole cost/benefit conversation that could occur but regardless of that internal scaling remains a persistent issue since closed beta and some of the fundamental issues remain in addressed since that time.
~Cross
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Posted - 2014.05.02 00:45:00 -
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Fanfest bump!
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Posted - 2014.05.04 16:31:00 -
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If migration to Legion in a couple of years is the plan then this information and feedback is still relevant and I hope that we can still gain Dev interaction in this thread. At minimum a nod from CCP to confirm they are seeing and considering this feedback even post Legion announcement would be a positive step.
0.02 ISK
Cross
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Posted - 2014.05.18 03:51:00 -
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This is still a persistent issue since closed beta. Other WP values have been changed in recent patches and it would be nice to get some up to date response from CCP regarding action on this issue. At minimum confirmation that fixing the scaling issues is still on the roadmap would be very valuable.
Thanks
Cross
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Posted - 2014.05.19 18:24:00 -
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CCP Rattati, you are obviously very busy, but if we could hear from you on this that would be great
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:31:00 -
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Cross Atu wrote:CCP Rattati, you are obviously very busy, but if we could hear from you on this that would be great Cheers, Cross
Still this.
Something as simple as "will be looking into this after the 1.9 'Little Things' patch" or ideally "will be looking at this for inclusion in the 1.9 'Little Things' patch."
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:59:00 -
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Still hoping for word.
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Posted - 2014.05.22 16:42:00 -
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The-Errorist wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Still hoping for word. I'll go link this thread to relevant feedback threads that CCP has started/are active in or twitter and briefly talk about some of the problems.
Thank you, I appreciate the idea and the initiative.
o7
Cross
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Posted - 2014.05.24 19:30:00 -
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The state of Equipment and support pre-hotfix alpha. (observations based on my own in game experience with all for racial suits and conversations with other players, as such conclusions are necessarily somewhat anecdotal)
Racially buffed equipment
- Uplinks - Less useful in the wake of the recent nerf, certainly still employed but the lower meta versions are virtually useless in most competitive environments. Recent nerfs not offset by Ammar bonus as the currently broken mechanic requires the user to be alive and in the Amarr suit for the bonus to apply. This iteration hamstrings tactical usage as the opposing team only needs to target one player (the logi) to remove a non-trivial asset from play (spawn time bonus). Further with the high fittings cost of uplinks eats into other possible fittings options reducing the potential combat viability of the single support suit whos niche leans towards some measure of combat.
- Nanohives - Repping Hives remain the more viable of the two types but the recent nerfs combined with the hive buff being bound to the Cal suit results in a constrained usefulness to these support builds. They are still present, but increasingly uncommon outside of 'swap and drop' within competitive play.
- Repair Tools - Currently the most viable support equipment on the field, the Min bonuses combined with the increased presence of the Sentinel give the Core and Triage a valid niche in competitive play. The low eHP of the Min suit makes this a frequently costly role to play and the Repair tool still suffers from scaling issues but is in some valid respects in a stronger place than it was.
- Scanners - The Active Scanner is not currently employed very often or to very great effect. With the combination of the (needed) fix to the 360 scans and the advent of the invisible Gal and omniscient Cal scouts the active scanner, even on a fully skilled GalLogi suit, is very rarely fielded or used to any great effect within competitive play.
Other equipment
- REs - The ability to 'frisbee throw the RE, combined with the relatively short 'set up' time prior to triggering and the high alpha damage + AoE make them the most flexible and useful piece of equipment presently in game (outside the cloak).
The can be used tactically in bottlenecks or on objectives, they can be used to enhance Proxy fields, they can be used as a pseudo AV nade and partly fill the role of the contact or locus nades as well.
- Proxy - Currently effective (mostly en mass) against some ground bound vehicles; primary effective as a 'trigger' for RE mines.
- Injectors - Still suffering from broken injection cycles, improper risk vs reward scaling, 'false positives' on revival indicators and limited usefulness in the face of high alpha OHKs. With the recent nerf to uplinks it is however seeing a mild increase in use.
- Cloaks - Cloaks are currently being looked into heavily for alteration in hotfix Alpha, and are further effected/effecting an array of other in game aspects as such I won't attempt to give a detailed assessment here. Their potency however is clear in the face of the high saturation of use in both PC and standard play. A more complete assessment however will have to wait until the post alpha changes sink in.
Still hoping for some post FanFest blue interaction regarding the status of these things.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.05.26 20:23:00 -
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Now that hotfix Alpha is, seemingly, in the oven finishing up it's time being baked I'm hoping to get some contemporary Dev attention on this outstanding matter.
o7
Cross
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Posted - 2014.06.05 17:33:00 -
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Help us CCP Rattati, you're our only hope
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Posted - 2014.06.05 23:09:00 -
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Twelve Guage wrote:Please be sure to take a look at triage nano hivs to. It seems like they also affect how many points we can get in a certain amount of time with or without our rep tools out.
Yes, we need CCP to provide transparency regarding the mechanics of the Rep Cycle on tools, and the capping methodology for Guardian points, Tool Reps, and Hive Reps.
We could provide much more effective feedback if we weren't having to test our way to an understanding of the mechanics each update (not knowing if anything on these undocumented systems has been altered or not).
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Posted - 2014.06.11 14:23:00 -
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Considering the size of the likely fix required I'm not expecting this to fit within the fixes of Bravo, however I'd love to get some motion towards including it within the next hotfix or two after that.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.06.14 22:24:00 -
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CCP Nothin wrote:Thanks for such admirably patient posting. A reply to this thread is long overdue, but here goes.
First off, I think the concept behind having higher WP rewards from using more expensive gear (and thus putting more ISK at at risk) is great and in line with our philosophy. We have looked into ways of making the WP rewards for support roles scale with the level of equipment you are using, but unfortunately it has turned out not to doable without some further development effort on the WP rewards system itself. That said, it's something we definitely interested in doing. Having high level weaponry makes you better at earning WP, as your killing potential is improved. Having high level equipment make you better at earning WP would only make sense.
(sinp[)
Time stamp; Posted: 2013.05.09 03:49
CCP can we please have an update on what, if anything, has changed regarding intent and updatability has changed since this statement was made and perhaps an approximate timetable for an address to these issues.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.06.15 22:55:00 -
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o7
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Posted - 2014.06.15 23:47:00 -
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True Adamance wrote:WP in general are pointless outside of Public Contracts.
They mean nothing in FW and nothing in PC. Idea's here are great but only apply to a single and very small section of the game.
Last I checked WPs generated OBs in PC (much to my surprise). Even in FW they're still key metrics for how SP and LP are earned so while certainly less relevant in that context they're not completely meaningless.
I'd also hazard that there aren't many players who cap out on PC or FW matches alone, perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems like almost everyone grabs a pub or two within a week of active play.
So, I tend to disagree that they're application is as narrow as you suggest. Scaled? Most certainty, but not entirely meaningless.
Even if they were only of value in Pubs proper scaling would still benefit the NPE and thus retention of players newer to the game.
In any event thank you for posting
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.06.16 14:05:00 -
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I-Shayz-I wrote:Still remember the day you made this thread XD
still completely agree and support everything here.
But
I do think that the issues presented in Hotfix Alpha and Bravo that have been/are being fixed are a lot more important to the overall game balance.
It's the forum posts like this that make me think I should create a section in my idex for Dust topics instead of just Legion.
o7 I-Shayz-I
We've been at this a long time haven't we
I agree with you that there are more pressing matters to attend to than these fixes, however I also think it's imperative this collection of issues not be forgotten or let slip off the radar until "hotfix zeta" or some such
Which is why I keep pressing for a CCP response, even one that says "we're definitely going to do this, just have X,Y,Z to accomplish first".
As to indexes, I'm a big fan of them of course it's your time to invest but I certainly think that a Dust index of as yet unaccomplished ideas or something like it would be quite worthwhile.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.06.18 00:25:00 -
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Still seeking word on when(ish) this will be addressed.
~Cross
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Posted - 2014.06.18 18:34:00 -
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Ah, thanks for the fix
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Posted - 2014.06.20 06:08:00 -
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CCP Rattati wrote:Atiim wrote:While we're at it, is there a chance that the WP which would be originally gained from triage being added to the WP given upon reviving with higher tiered injectors?
I feel as if there would a lot more ADV and PRO Nanite Injectors on the field if players weren't "punished" for using them. That is firmly on the list already, I am just looking at whether pro just gives naturally more WP in a tier progression, or if its based on actual WP healed (don't know how easy that is though).
CCP Rattati, best Rattati
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Posted - 2014.06.20 09:11:00 -
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Sgt Kirk wrote:I feel like I am not rewarded enough for slaying.
and yet another reason why the Assault suit is the worse suit
?
Not sure how this pertains to the subject of the thread or considerations of proper internal scaling?
EDIT: Not the subject of the thread but as of this posting I do completely agree that that Assault suit needs some love.
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Posted - 2014.07.09 01:28:00 -
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Cross Atu wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Atiim wrote:While we're at it, is there a chance that the WP which would be originally gained from triage being added to the WP given upon reviving with higher tiered injectors?
I feel as if there would a lot more ADV and PRO Nanite Injectors on the field if players weren't "punished" for using them. That is firmly on the list already, I am just looking at whether pro just gives naturally more WP in a tier progression, or if its based on actual WP healed (don't know how easy that is though). CCP Rattati, best Rattati
I would love to get a further update on this posted to the thread here if at all possible..
Further, it would be great to see some contemporary discussion (hopefully including our friendly neighborhood Rattati ) regarding equipment scaling in general and how it impacts/interacts across equipment types.
Cheers,
Cross
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