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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Logistix Delux
Seconds From The Storm
1
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Posted - 2013.01.24 02:39:00 -
[121] - Quote
I agree. There isn't ever a situation where-in the rewards for using lower quality gear should exceed those offered by using higher quality gear. The point of DUST is to manage Risk v. Reward. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. The current implementation does not fit this paradigm. |
Auriel Aedean
Gunslingers Corporation. GmbH
20
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Posted - 2013.01.24 02:49:00 -
[122] - Quote
Martin0 Brancaleone wrote:Yes please, more WP for reviving with better nanite injiectors.
Maybe 60 standard, 80 advanced and 100 for the proto? Even 60-70-80 would be good.
Also agree on the repair tool and the selection Wheel.
Agreed! Would be a better incentive towards Logis who actually upgrade their tools.
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.25 18:32:00 -
[123] - Quote
Logistix Delux wrote:I agree. There isn't ever a situation where-in the rewards for using lower quality gear should exceed those offered by using higher quality gear. The point of DUST is to manage Risk v. Reward. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. The current implementation does not fit this paradigm.
Well said, thank you for boiling down the crux of the matter so effectively.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.26 11:51:00 -
[124] - Quote
The deincentivization of higher Meta restorative gear continues to be an active issue. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.27 18:53:00 -
[125] - Quote
^I reiterate the above. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.30 06:00:00 -
[126] - Quote
bump |
Patoman Radiant
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
53
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Posted - 2013.01.30 06:16:00 -
[127] - Quote
Or...... have it be based on every 100 health repaired
and have the advanced nanite injectors work faster |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.30 06:33:00 -
[128] - Quote
Patoman Radiant wrote:Or...... have it be based on every 100 health repaired
and have the advanced nanite injectors work faster
I'm not sure what you mean by having the nano injectors work faster, they're basically instant (assuming you don't get the blasted targeting bug  ).
Would you mind elaborating on this a bit more to clarify what you're suggesting?
Cheers,
Cross |
XINERA XIOS
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
14
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Posted - 2013.01.30 20:45:00 -
[129] - Quote
I think he means that the stand up time, should be shortend by higher gear injectors.
I would like them to stand up faster, too :)
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.31 17:19:00 -
[130] - Quote
XINERA XIOS wrote:I think he means that the stand up time, should be shortend by higher gear injectors.
I would like them to stand up faster, too :)
That would be nice, CCP are you getting this bit down? 
Thanks for posting Xinera. 
Cheers,
Cross
EDIT: It's worth mentioning however that while this idea would be great it would not address the current broken mechanics regarding WP awards for restorative equipment as higher meta injectors would still give a lower potential for WP gains. |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.02.01 17:28:00 -
[131] - Quote
Persistent issue still persists.  |
Cade Orion
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
27
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Posted - 2013.02.01 17:49:00 -
[132] - Quote
I've brought this up before - it's only common sense
If you're using higher grade gear and have much more to lose as a result - your bonus should help to balance that out.
I'd also like to see them get rid of the cycle entirely - just lower the amount of points that you get but keep the cycle going.
I hate it when my cycle is finished and I'm not getting awarded for the danger I'm putting myself by having my rep tool out, instead of my gun.
Yes I'm aware of why they changed it to the cycle - but a lowering of the points and keeping the cycle going is another possible solution.
Also the Guardian WP bonus should not be part of the cycle. I've seen fellow merc's that I'm repairing kill someone while I'm locked on and I didn't get the Guardian bonus because my cycle was over. Kind of bogus - I'm support that's what I do. And I should be rewarded for my troubles. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.02.06 02:47:00 -
[133] - Quote
Agreed the cycle mechanic needs to be improved. |
Ronan Elsword
Dead Six Initiative
7
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Posted - 2013.02.06 04:17:00 -
[134] - Quote
+1
Good ideas, and I think a fix would be great. Also like someone else previously said, the system used in Mag was great. |
ugg reset
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
234
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Posted - 2013.02.06 05:34:00 -
[135] - Quote
Ronan Elsword wrote:+1
Good ideas, and I think a fix would be great. Also like someone else previously said, the system used in Mag was great.
No it really wasn't all that great. I'l admit ZipperGäó did a lot of things right but CCPGäó has done much better at keeping Equipment in check. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:44:00 -
[136] - Quote
To Recap:
Currently Repair Tools award via a "cycle" rather than based on the actual amount, thus causing situations (in addition to the "cap") where the player gains no reward for the repairs provided to fellow Mercs. This situation occurs more frequently with the higher grade Repair Tools thus causing a net loss of potential gains if gear better than Militia is used. The reduction in possible WPs earned when more ISK & SP are invested is antithetical to general awards methods in Dust and discourages the use of quality Repair Tools.
Nanoinjectors currently grant a single blanket award regardless of Injector cost or meta level. The higher ISK & SP cost Injectors restore the revived Merc with more health on revive, this effectively causes the user to 'repair' the revived Merc without receiving any WP for their efforts.
The combined effects of these mechanics result in it being more beneficial for players not to spend SP or ISK on any version of these equipment mods above Militia.
Please CCP change these mechanics so that when new Logi Mercs ask me for guidance in the Training Grounds I'm able to advise them in optimal ways to invest their SP into being a Logi rather than warn them away from spending SP which won't actually help them develop/progress their character.
Cheers,
Cross
ps ~ Injector targeting is much better so thank you for that there are still however times when a body is unable to be targeted from right on top of it, and instances where use of the injector (full "stick" animation and sounds etc.) does not result in a revive even after several activations. It would be great to have these wrinkles smoothed out |
J Lav
Lost-Legion
28
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Posted - 2013.02.08 19:09:00 -
[137] - Quote
I'm going to go ahead and rock the boat on this. I am a Logi player, and I use medium level kit at this point, since I don't have the SP for better.
Regarding the Repair Gun:
Better repair = more cycles in the long run, hence more WP. This is because a militia repair gun will not keep a guy on his feet. So he dies, and you die trying to revive him. Costly mistake. Using the Triage gun instead keeps the guy alive longer, giving me more cycles and, more importantly, a better chance of winning the gunfight and the battle.
Regarding the Injectors:
I see the same situation. How many revives you get doesn't really change, since reviving the guy is done for a few reasons - stay alive, save clones, keep pressure on, save kit and WP. WP should be the least of your concerns. Injectors that give more armour make it more likely that they'll stay on their feet, and inversely you stay alive. So better injectors save you ISK and make it more likely to win the gunfight and the battle. Yes a militia injector gives more WP in repairing after the revive, but now you've both been standing around hoping not to get shot for 2 minutes.
So I see no reason to reward Logi players in a battle based on what kit they brought, rather than what they did in the game. Better kit should allow you to do more, creating more opportunities for reward. Changing the WP system on these would do just reward people for what they already could do. I think that to say that you want more reward for the better kit is really ignoring what that kit is for, and a silent bid for more ISK through an indirect source. This all just seems to be a side effect of people getting used to the game at present, which is just a grind for ISK and SP. When the game's scope is added later, I think this will make much more sense. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.02.09 22:32:00 -
[138] - Quote
Hi, first off thanks for posting  second I welcome debate on the subject so please understand that where I disagree with you below it's not meant as "the final word" do feel free to respond.
J Lav wrote:I'm going to go ahead and rock the boat on this. I am a Logi player, and I use medium level kit at this point, since I don't have the SP for better.
Regarding the Repair Gun:
Better repair = more cycles in the long run, hence more WP. This is because a militia repair gun will not keep a guy on his feet. So he dies, and you die trying to revive him. Costly mistake. Using the Triage gun instead keeps the guy alive longer, giving me more cycles and, more importantly, a better chance of winning the gunfight and the battle.
There are only very select situations in which you should have your Rep Tool out during a fire fight, one of the only consistent instances is if you are in cover and your squad is cycling in and out of cover as you rep them. Beyond that even the Proto repair tools will not out rep incoming dps so using the repair tool in this manner is a flawed tactic more often than not (side note, check out this thread for an idea which may change that: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=535799#post535799). The short answer is that when you're in the thick of things providing supporting fire for your squad is usually the tactically superior and thus increases your overall survival and that of our squad.
Even were that not to be the case doing as you describe is a play style not a base line., and as such does not effectively counter the weakness of the current mechanical iteration. Logi players should not be force to rep during a fire fight just to have the possibility of avoiding a lower potential WP gain from running gear that requires both ISK and SP to fit in the first place.
Quote:
Regarding the Injectors:
I see the same situation. How many revives you get doesn't really change, since reviving the guy is done for a few reasons - stay alive, save clones, keep pressure on, save kit and WP. WP should be the least of your concerns.
Injectors that give more armour make it more likely that they'll stay on their feet, and inversely you stay alive. So better injectors save you ISK and make it more likely to win the gunfight and the battle. Yes a militia injector gives more WP in repairing after the revive, but now you've both been standing around hoping not to get shot for 2 minutes.
Respectfully this is irreverent to the discussion at hand. All gear, weapons, dropsuits, fits etc. should be both tactically useful and properly rewarding. The above is a commentary on the tactical effectiveness of the equipment in question, the value of their function is not in doubt, their proper normalization within the WP rewards is.
This is relevant in a lager context than a single firefight or a single battle as WP earned effect gains in both ISK and SP thus weighting the development of that Merc. Thus any gear which underperforms the curve places an undue burden on it's user creating a mechanical imbalance within the game.
Quote:
So I see no reason to reward Logi players in a battle based on what kit they brought, rather than what they did in the game. Better kit should allow you to do more, creating more opportunities for reward. Changing the WP system on these would do just reward people for what they already could do. I think that to say that you want more reward for the better kit is really ignoring what that kit is for, and a silent bid for more ISK through an indirect source. This all just seems to be a side effect of people getting used to the game at present, which is just a grind for ISK and SP. When the game's scope is added later, I think this will make much more sense.
The reason to reward players based on the quality of their gear is game balance. "Slayer" roles gain a higher potential for WP earnings as they upgrade their gear, as long as that remains true (which it will as long as kills awards WP) the rest of the gear in game needs to be properly normalized to this progression else the mechanics of the game are imbalanced.
The real 'bite' of the imbalance I am addressing in this thread will not be seen very strongly in the present condition of the game, nor in the early stages of the game regardless of it's condition. It is the long term implications which are significant within this context, the one year, two year, etc benchmarks as other players who are equally skilled (player skill) in their chosen combat role steadily open a wider and wider gap beyond those who are working in a support role.
Dropships and Logi LAVs are both quite effective from a tactical standpoint but are much less frequently fielded and certainly cannot be said to be a self sustaining battlefield role as of the Chromosome build. While equipment is not as broken as either of those vehicle roles the same problem still applies just not as drastically.
Simply put, for a battlefield role to reach viable parity it must be rewarded in parity with the rest of the roles offered.
Game mechanics should not play favorites with player choice, to do so is by definition imbalance.
Cheers,
Cross |
CODE Breaker93
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
11
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Posted - 2013.02.10 11:12:00 -
[139] - Quote
+1 |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:32:00 -
[140] - Quote
Glad you like the thread, thanks for posting |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:09:00 -
[141] - Quote
WP rewards for injectors and repair tools really really need to be tied to WP. If you're using superior tools to help your team better, you should be rewarded more. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.02.11 03:35:00 -
[142] - Quote
^This |
J Lav
Lost-Legion
28
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Posted - 2013.02.11 16:28:00 -
[143] - Quote
@Cross,
I don't want to quote, since it's gonna get to be a really big post, but I'll give some thoughts.
Thanks for the civil discussion, I appreciate the openness.
I think I see your point played out that as slayers get better at their job, a support role like a Logi bro looses their opportunities for WP and SP generation. I can see that as players get better, the dedicated logi loses out and falls behind since he gets less revives, and repairs. In the present build, this makes sense then to allow Logi's to keep up with the power development.
Rewards: Here's where I think I still struggle with; It is that I think there are rewards for better gear for the Logi. It comes in other forms than more WP from the single action. It comes in victory, it comes in prolonged life and it comes in increased pressure on the battlefield and saving time. If a Logi is redundant because his slayers aren't dying, switch out and play a different role, because you're redundant. This is not a penalty to your choice of fit, but you're just not needed to play that role at that time. I like Logi because of my versatility. I don't always fit a rep tool, since fits are an extension of your play style.
Understand that I wouldn't object to a fix on this, I would benefit significantly from it. It did strike me at first that fewer reps meant less WP for getting my heavy partner back up to full. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2013.02.11 22:36:00 -
[144] - Quote
The game should not reward more for helping your team with crappy gear than helping them with good gear. You shouldn't have to choose between doing a good job and making WP (which becomes SP). |
J Lav
Lost-Legion
28
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Posted - 2013.02.12 12:56:00 -
[145] - Quote
On an upside for you guys, last night I was getting more 5 more WP for using the Triage rep gun than the militia rep gun. Looks like they've heard you :) Can anyone confirm this? |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 08:25:00 -
[146] - Quote
64 likes, genuine problem, yet they still ignore this. |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion
50
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Posted - 2013.02.13 08:40:00 -
[147] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
In the case of the Repair Tool reduce the following attributes. War Point awards per cycle, cycle time, and amount healed per cycle. The new GÇÿmicroGÇÖ cycles for the Repair Tool can then be more readily scaled by Meta level to provide War Point awards appropriate to their effect. A simple method for scaling War Point awards would be Meta 1 multiplies total awards by a factor of 1, with each higher Meta level increasing the multiplier (specific amounts of increase to be determined by testing).
[/list]
I agree that the ideal stat to control repair tool leveling should be repair cycle length. I get the feeling CCP didn't think too deeply about the WP relationship with this item. If repair amount per cycle and WP gains were flattened and cycle length were tied to meta level would this achieve most of the goals you are looking for? |
J Lav
Lost-Legion
28
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Posted - 2013.02.14 01:47:00 -
[148] - Quote
J Lav wrote:On an upside for you guys, last night I was getting more 5 more WP for using the Triage rep gun than the militia rep gun. Looks like they've heard you :) Can anyone confirm this?
Again, any confirmation here? I think they've fixed this |
DeathStalker Synchro
D3ath D3alers
RISE of LEGION
24
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Posted - 2013.02.14 05:44:00 -
[149] - Quote
+1
Logis need love too |
Imp Smash
On The Brink
51
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Posted - 2013.02.14 06:23:00 -
[150] - Quote
From what I understand you gain WP based on how many Hp you heal right? So a higher tier gun is better simply because you get the same wp in less time letting you move on to heal someone else, escape fire to cover, or shoot an enemy.
You are right about rezz sticks though. There should be a bonus to the 80 over the militia wp wise. |
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