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Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
23
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Posted - 2013.03.14 07:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Awesome thread is awesome.
I couldn't agree with the essence of this entire thread more.
There is a massive parity in the Risk vs. Reward paradigm of the Eve/Dust universe between certain battlefield roles that needs to be addressed. You see the same problems with dedicated Dropship Pilots (to a much much worse degree, imo). Using better DSs yields better TACTICAL results (you fly longer, die less easily and probably get more kill assists via better guns and gunners) at a much higher ISK and SP cost. The same is true of dedicated LogiBros (a class to which I am currently on the path to joining). You spend more on better tools, they require greater SP and yet your rewards SUFFER for their use. Less WP Reward for far greater Risk.
If I roll a proto Cal Assault suit, a Duvolle, Complex damage mods, etc... and I am as proficient in "player skills" as I am in meta skill, then I can reasonably expect greater returns on my use of proto gear. More kills equals more WP, more WP means more SP/ISK. I Risk more ISK in the venture, as proto gear costs multiples more ISK to fit but the general paradigm of Risk vs. Reward is preserved.
If I roll a proto Min Logi suit, a proto nano injector, a proto armor repair tool...and I am as proficient in "player skills" as I am in meta skill, I will get LESS WP than if I use militia gear. Faster healing and more health on revives (which means less missing health to repair as well) allows less access to WP than using militia derivatives. More Risk in ISK spent on proto gear for less Reward in the form of WP and therefore SP/ISK. Completely contrary to the sandbox nature of the MMORPG portion of Dust.
I like the idea of making the cycle time of proto armor reppers shorter and increasing armor repaired per cycle. I warmed up to the overheating idea, too (pun intended). For spikes, I think a simple 30WP for Militia/Standard, 50WP for Advanced and 80WP for Proto makes perfect sense. One WP per %health returned to the revivee. People might say that is too low on the low end, but that's the point. Discourage all these Assault suit guys from running around spiking people for maximum WP and shafting their own LogiBros, who dedicate their in-game time and SP to reviving and triage.
I definitely don't like the current "timer" system they have. I understand that it is a hotfix to an exploit, but it is crap and needs to be changed. If that means lowering the WP income per cycle in order to keep returns consistent then so be it.
As far as the current system theoretically resulting in the same amount of WP between militia and proto ( 'x' maximum triage WP within a set of parameters where 'x' is the same regardless of tool used)... I say shenanigans on that. That is assuming too much. Since the proto reppers heal two people at once, potentially, and heal more health you are going to hit the WP max timers much more quickly, yet they run out at the same speed for everyone. All that means is more time spent doing "free" triage for no gains, even if you heal ten times as many people. Even if you hit the timers as many times with each setup and, therefore, end the match with the same amount of WP...it still doesn't address the greater cost of the proto logi gear in both ISK and SP needed for use. Same WP for MUCH greater cost...who would use proto then? There is a clear advantage to using a Duvolle AR over a Militia AR. The Duvolle is statistically better in every single way, except RoF which I believe is the same. Getting a better AR does not guarantee more kills, but it will never PUNISH you for using it (aside from cost). Using the proto spike or repper guarantees less WP per target, especially when used in tandem.
Kudos, Cross, for pulling out the stops on this subject. Change is necessary here... |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
24
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Posted - 2013.03.14 07:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quick addition...
Why no WP for repairing vehicles or installations? Doesn't need to be a lot. Something like +5 per cycle (unless overheating gets added, then it'd need a buff), limited at whatever seems fair to the Devs just like triage now.
It isn't about getting more WP for Logi guys. It is about getting WP for doing anything and everything (in fair amounts to each "class"). Hacking gets WP, destroying gets WP, killing gets WP. Armor repair is the primary function of a healing logistics guy, so why does it seem so marginalized? |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
25
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Posted - 2013.03.15 06:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Robert JD Niewiadomski wrote:I am a logi. And i don't see a problem with less WP for doing my duty. The reward for me is immaterial. I don't have to kill. But someone have to do it. Let's not kid ourselves. DUST is FPS. It means it is aimed at killing by various methods. For logis to have to do anything there must be somebody to provide a task and do a dirty work. For logis to clean up the mess  (1)WP stands for War Points. War means death and destruction. And a logi is trying to do something opposite. So don't expect to be rewarded for desertion... Worst of all a logi is an easy target. And respawns a lot. This means we eat up clones quick. Hopefully our "sacrifice' means that clones reserves depletion by non logis will drop significantly and reduces a battle re-entry to min. for them. Giving more time to focus on hacking objectives and depleting adversary's clones reserves. (2)So the balance is this: A logi gets peace of mind but less WP/ISK/SP. A non logi stains his conscience and is reimbursed by more WP/ISK/SP So ask yourselves this: Do you logi for WP or for peace of mind? If for WP then just tap R2 lightly and then R1 and forget about rezzing or repping... But you will gain more WPs... DUST is not meant to be fair unfortunately. In it's game summary it brags about unending conflict. We logis are just a drop in the ocean. Let's be frank. The war can continue without us and we are on our own. If we want to be of some use we need to be better not because of WP incentive but because we want to bring life not death. But... there is a catch if you do this for higher reason. When you rezz a merc you bring back somebody to life and this means somebody else is probably going to die thanks to your effiort. This is wicked... So even when you think you don't kill, you do after all... By proxy... Given all of the above it is surprising there is a possibility to be a logi in DUST. But it is very kind of you CCP. (3)There is Light at the end of this tunnel. And this is not some piece of machinery or danger approaching. Don't give up your logi effort. It will pay out but not in the form of WP. After all for a true logi it's not about WP. Thanks 
Huh? What? Is this serious? Not even my thread and I almost feel trolled.
I completely appreciate your Roleplayers attitude and commitment, assuming this IS a serious post. LogiBros are the white light...the selfless shield. We risk our skins to save the lives of our fallen comrades and often find our clone bodies taking their place among the fallen. It is our cross and burden and we grit our teeth and bear it.
Lets be real though. This is a Request/Feedback forum on the mechanics of a video game in Beta development. The RP is great but is definitely best kept IN the game or elsewhere on the forums. Here is the reason why:
(1)You are correct that WP means War Points. War is brutal and ugly in its entirety, but is a fixture of the human experience (ours and denizens of New Eden) and isn't going away any time soon. A Logi serves the battlefield effort trying to bring fallen allies back into form. War Points are rewarded for accomplishing goals though, not some karmic demerits on our souls. If you don't want to accrue WP for KILLING then simply don't kill and only heal. No black marks on your conscience. You will still gain WP for your triage and revival efforts. Perhaps your issue is with the name "War Points" and not with accruing some form of reward?
(2)Your notion of "balance" sortof eludes me. Logi suits and tools still cost ISK (and often more ISK per suit than Assaults and Scouts). Logistics skills still cost SP to raise. You say you are fine with earning less WP and therefore less SP/ISK...well I'm bloody not. I don't care a fig whether I earn cosmic punishment in some imagined New Eden afterlife for killing or gaining WP, the fact of the matter is that WP is a game mechanic that directly impacts character development. If you make Logis gain them less quickly because they don't kill, you cripple Logis as a playable class. If you personally don't care, that is your business and perfectly within your providence, but the fact is that every class MUST have an equal shake when it comes to meta development or the entire nature of the game is broken. This is all completely ignoring the fact that Logis can easily gain far more WP (especially at Meta 1) than their combatant counterparts anyways.
(3)Nope. Nada. Every single class IS most certainly about getting WP. Not KILLS...but WP. WPs are the path to character development and are necessary for any person playing the game to attain unless you want to spend your entire D514 existence in starter fits.
All these things are completely irrelevant anyways. The OP is about matching meta level of Logi gear to gains in WP and therefore SP/ISK, rather than the current system which rewards use of proto logistics gear with FEWER WP and therefore penalizes their use.
PS. This was mostly a response for fun and was actually just a convoluted way to bump the thread because I think the topic is important
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Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
26
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Posted - 2013.03.16 09:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I completely disagree with you, mind you.
Being a logistics guy is still an in-game class. You need to advance just like other classes and you need money to buy more gear just like other classes. In THIS game, WP is the path to skills and money and, therefore, all classes should obtain WP at the same rate relative to their skills (both as a player and meta). A combatant focuses primarily on getting kills as their source of WP, a logistics guy primarily on triage and revivals as their source. Hopefully someday a pilot will get WP for dropping off infantry into the fray. Maybe things like radar detection modules will allow scouts a +5 per red dot scanned down, making being a true scout a viable play style (again, no kills necessary).
A sniper can throw down a nanohive to gain +10 for resupplying their teammates or grab an injector and revive a fallen comrade for +60, no kills necessary. A logibro can always grab an AR and get to dirty working for +50 or +25.
I understand your point. Rezzing or repping are primary rewards in and of themselves, right? You resurrect a teammate and it saves your team a clone. You perform triage and it adds armor to a hurt teammate, hopefully staving off another team clone loss for a time. That is a good point. However, you are talking about what I call tactical rewards. They help your team win matches without a doubt. Winning a match means nothing though, right now, aside from stroking egos. Everyone likes to win and I, personally, always try for a team victory. You make one fatal mistake. You assume that logistics' sole reason for existence are those tactical rewards. An assault guy gets tactical rewards too...when he kills an enemy clone. The death of an orange clone is the Assault version of reviving a blue clone for Logistics. Each yields a tactical result for the person in question.
Tactical rewards do not gain you WP, though. WP are the engine through which ISK and SP are gained and the ONLY engine (ignoring passive SP gain since all players get that). If logistics equipment and suits were free and didn't require skills, then I would agree with you that gaining WP is completely unnecessary. Since they cost SP to use and ISK (some would argue more than Assaults, Scouts and most Heavies) then your theory gets blown to hell.
Again, this entire debate is completely off topic, though. This thread isn't about methods for Logis to gain more WP. We mostly gain enough WP at current anyways. This thread is about ways to make logistics scale properly. A standard Logi shouldn't be gaining more WP than a prototype Logi, pure and simple. Proto Logis should be competitive in terms of WP with their Assault, Scout and Heavy counterparts and they aren't because of the broken way proto Logi tools punish their users.
PS. Another shameless bump. |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
39
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Posted - 2013.03.22 02:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
No problemo, Cross. I'm especially invested in this thread as I have hauled off and made myself a Logistics player and the proper function and scaling of that classes gear and WP gain has and will directly effect me.
I don't quite get why people read this thread and think it is about buffing WP gain for Logi/Vehicle support?
The complaint intended by the OP addresses improper scaling of gear (essentially meta level) for the Logistics class.
I imagine such a scenario to see if scaling is working:
Take two LogiBros. One is using all MLT gear and the other is using all PRO gear. Now, lets just say that this is the same guy playing both characters so individual player skill is a non factor. If these two guys did EXACTLY the same thing during a round, the very best that the PRO guy could hope for would be to make exactly the same WP as the MLT guy. In most cases, though, he would actually make less WP. I know what you are thinking: "if they are doing the exact same thing, how could one guy make less WP." Sounds like a logical paradox. Yet it is true.
Lets say each guy gets 4 kills and 4 assists. Total WP for kills is 300 (4x50 + 4x25).
Both revive 8 individual players (no reviving the same guy twice). That is 480 (8x60). Puts us at 780.
Both perform triage on those 8 revived players. Lets say the MLT guy gets 25 per cycle and heals each revived teammate for 4 cycles (seems about right on your average Assault who revives at 30% of armor [MLT nano injector]). He is, essentially, healing 17.5% HP per cycle. He gets 800 if there is no triage cap. The PRO guy, though, only gets in ONE cycle and that is IF his PRO Armor Repair Tool only heals 17.5% HP per cycle (it actually does more). SO, the PRO guy only gets 200 WP for healing the remainder after revival (PRO nano injectors revive at 80% of Armor).
In that imagined scenario, our MLT guy ends up with a mad WP score of 1580 and the PRO guy ends up with 980.
Now, in our current build, there is a cap on triage. You can only gain so much in a given time period. That will slide the MLT triage score down significantly as he won't be able to time all 8 full revivals perfectly with the timers. There is nothing saying that our PRO guy won't revive and heal 4 times as many teammates, but even if he does he is still subject to the triage timers and the absolute best he can hope for is the constantly hit the timers as much as the MLT guy. He will, therefore, accrue only as many WPs as the MLT guy. NEVER more. It is mathematically impossible once both guys hit the timers repeatedly throughout the match for one to gain above the other. Even if the PRO guy heals 10 times as many comrades, he will be doing so only for the satisfaction, as he will end up at the same amount of WP as the MLT guy assuming both hit the cap. Even reviving many more teammates will only net him a small advantage because there is a timed cap on revives, too. Insult to injury, his PRO Armor Repair Tool also heals faster and can heal two guys at once (most models) and he is just that much more likely to hit the cap.
SO, the PRO guy risks mad ISK to use his PRO gear (without even considering the SP he's spent) and the very BEST he can hope for is to break even with a MLT guy fresh off the War Barge.
Broke...as...a...joke.
My suggestion of amending revives based on the nano injector used would help (MLT/STD 30WP, ADV 50WP and PRO 80WP). Another suggestion was to make triage returns diminish rather than cap. Cross suggested that they switch WP gain from a time based cycle to amount of HP healed, which would work fantastically. The PRO Armor Reppers would cycle faster and, therefore, heal more HP in less time and yield more WP.
My final suggestion was raise the cap time but lower the WP gain per cycle (I think in tandem with my other solution and Cross's solution, that would solve basically all the scaling problems). Do 10WP per cycles and either ditch the cap or raise it. The result would be PRO Logis getting 1500-2000WP a round (the numbers might have to be tinkered) while a MLT Logi might only get 500-800WP. Basically, if you look at Assaults, that would be pretty consistent with their gear scaling as it stands. Buff Heavy PRO gear. Give DS pilots and LAV drivers a crapload of love. BAM...balanced AND properly scaled.
CCP: "Thank you Cross."
Cross: "Oh don't worry about sending me a paycheck, CCP." |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
43
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 22:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you've been running Logi that long, then you'll have noticed how PRO Assault guys, PRO Scout snipers and shottys, ADV HAV drivers, et al... are getting 2k WP per match or more assuming they don't suck. Even the very best Logi guys aren't getting that kind of score because it is impossible. The triage timer and maximum revival timer literally make it impossible (talking Ambush here as a rubric).
I went 18/3 about a week ago and spent most of the match fervently reviving teammates. I didn't Rep much, but still hit the timer a couple times in 8 or 9 minutes. I had 1600 WP at the end. Take the 900WP off for kills. Even if I didn't get a single assist, I bet I revived 15 people but only got credit on...8 or 10 because I did too many revives in a short amount of time. I was using MLT Logi gear. The caps would have been even worse if I had been using PRO stuff. I would have hit them faster and rev'ed and rep'ed that many more blue dots for NO WP gain.
If a MLT Assault guy gets 500 WP per match and a STD gets 800 WP per match and a ADV (The dreaded Gek) gets 1k to 1.5k per match and a PRO guy gets 1.5k to 2k per match (average-ish)...then that is how good scaling works. Yes, the guy has better skills and probably has better "gun-game" but those are still factors considered in good scaling.
It isn't hard to believe that a decent MLT Logi can rack up 900 or 1k WP in a round. A fella in my Corp is one of the best LogiBros I've ever seen. He is everywhere with that spike and his repper....and he gets 1200 or 1300 on a good round. He doesn't use MLT. He uses ADV nano injectors and ADV reppers and a STD Logi type-1 suit. You might say that is an example of scaling, but that isn't the case. He has often said that he would probably make more WP using MLT for all the reasons that Cross made this very thread. If he used PRO, he'd go broke because he'd still only get 1200 or less WP a round. He's tried.
You seem to understand this thread in part and misunderstand it in part. It is complicated and nobody knows exactly how the mysterious triage cap timers work, making it even more complicated.
You are 100% right that no other gear scales in its awarding WP and that is a very valid point. A kill is a kill is a kill. They do make killing easier, though. A major point of this thread is that using a PRO AR or Shotty does not make it HARDER to gain WP. Ever. Using a PRO needle literally punishes the Logi who does it.
The only way it doesn't is in its tactical advantage. I will not flog that dead horse any longer...please re-read post #189. I succinctly make the separation between tactical rewards and game mechanic rewards. Everyone needs WPs equally. They are NOT ONLY FOR KILLS and are the only means with which a Dust player can advance their character. Everyone needs ISK and SP. Everyone. Why should some classes have a WP gaining advantage at the PRO gear level over others?
The ultimate fact is that Logis don't scale for ****. Neither Cross, nor myself are asking for more WP, per se. Yes on the PRO end and definitely NO on the MLT end. In fact, both our suggestions would make MLT Logi more in line with MLT variants of other classes as far as WP are concerned. It is extraordinarily stupid for me to need to get 15+ kills with my LOGISTICS guy to be competitive with other players that have 3million SP. Is it possible for me to go 2/6 and still get 1200WP...yes. If the stars line up and just the right revive/triage ratio presents itself. An Assault guy that gets 20 kills and 8 assists ALWAYS gets 1200WP. If I revive 8 guys and heal for 20 cycles...I am not guaranteed to get any certain amount because of game mechanics and goofy Logi gear. |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
44
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 04:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:I just don't see the disparity of warpoints for Logi bros. In a good game I have no trouble whatsoever landing a high spot on the leader board.
As for remote reps vehicle mods; ***** broken and needs huge overhaul.
Cross already addressed this but I'll take a whack as well before hitting my main point...
It cannot be iterated enough that this thread is most certainly NOT about Logistics players not getting enough WPs. It is not about LogiBros getting too few WP. Not.
This thread is, and has been since day one, about the disparity of WPs gained by Prototype LogiBros versus Militia or Standard LogiBros. It addresses the lack of appropriate scaling. Scaling, in this case, meaning that a MLT piece of equipment should offer fewer benefits than a STD...a STD less than an ADV and an ADV less than a PRO. Currently, these items DO scale correctly as far as tactical rewards are concerned (Working As Intended). They DO NOT scale correctly as far as game mechanical rewards are concerned. Using a PRO injector or PRO armor repair tool will, at the very most, net you the same exact amount of WP as a MLT/STD variant. Furthermore, while the maximum potential WP is the same, the reality is that using PRO gear makes it HARDER to hit the maximum potential WPs. Not scaling properly...
Okay...I went further in detail than I intended.
My main reason for posting here today is to address vehicle repairing. My answer to that boondoggle is that armor repairing a vehicle should yield WPs exactly like triage does...only fewer per cycle. Since you are capable of healing quite a deal of damaged armor on a vehicle or installation, it would be broken to receive even close to the same WP for healing them. Everyone would follow tanks around like lost puppies for the opportunity to crank their WP.
As far as shield transportation and remote repair modules on vehicles: again, yes those tasks should absolutely grant WP. How much is a matter of balancing the role.
My essential position is that ALL roles should receive a fair and balanced amount of WPs. No role left behind. Why can a tanker earn 2500WP for killing plus assists but a dropship pilot earns 200WP a match if he's lucky for meager assists from his gunners (who only have a 180 degree field of fire each)? Why can a PRO Assault guy go 28/1 with 24 assists and get 2000WP but a PRO Logistics guy revives 28 guys and performs triage 24 times and you can't even truly predict his WP gain because of artificial caps AND the worst part is that he would have risked less and gained just as much WP if he used MLT? All good questions with no good answers. |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 05:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Don't know how I feel about damage/death taking away WP. How would that work with newbies? You go 0/12 and get 75WP from assists but negative 600 from deaths??? Effectively making newbie WP/SP/ISK gain limited to in-game timer. That idea is not a winner, imo.
I absolutely LOVE a SP system that gains you SP spendable only on related skills (or straight into those skills). I assume it would work sort of like this:
You perform triage on someone and gain 'x' SP and 'y' WP. The SP gain is "Triage SP" and isn't actively spent, but rather just adds SP into your Remote Armor Repair skill? You shoot a guy with an AR and gain skill into AR Ops (or AR Proficiency if Ops is maxed) and Weaponry. You fly a DS and gain skill into Cal Dropships, Vehicle Maneuvering and Vehicle Control? That sort of thing?
Then you gain WP like normal for Orbitals and SP/ISK from total WP as per usual that becomes "Universal SP" to be spent in any skill? Otherwise how would you gain into, say, Combat Engineering or Field Mechanics?
I think the community would argue that a system like this is even more complicated than the current system already is and would reject such an idea. Better to balance WP across all classes and properly scale SP/ISK cost of skills and items first for each individual class and then across all classes.
As far as farming goes...there is little and less stopping similar farming right now. I just played in 4 or 5 games with Corpmates on the other team. If we were at all inclined, we could easily just roll over for them or they for us. We could go off to the red line and take turns killing and reviving for WP gains until the timers all cap off for each person.
The new system wouldn't change that...true. The intention of the new system isn't to address farming as a flaw...it is to address WP disparity in the Logistics class. Fixing farming in most of its current forms would pretty much require a completely new skills system. Adding death penalties punishes the nice and rewards the naughty. Why should I risk my neck to run out and revive a guy, facing almost certain death in the process, if I am going to be punished and not rewarded? Better to roll all Assault, all the time. Just keep my head down and go for kills. Such a system is inherently flawed towards snipers and tankers, too, who die much much less than run-of-the-mill Assaults, Logis and Heavies. It also helps PRO badasses who die much less often than newbies and lowbies (and PRO badasses hardly need help as it is).
I have hardly even seen that many people AFK farming, much less intentionally dying for the sake of their comrades nano injectors. The whole death/damage punishment idea seems like a solution in search of a problem.
"Farming," as Cross clearly points out, is pto broadly defined to attempt solutions to said problem. Does camping behind a constantly damaged Heavy comprise "farming?" The Logi is still healing...whether it seems unfair to reward that healing or not...and the Heavy is remaining combat effective...so is the Logi doing something wrong? So why does the Logi get punished for doing his job (denial of WP IS a PUNISHMENT)? Because Assaults and Tankers don't want to see a Logi get 3500 WP per match for a change?
Fine...scale the Logistics properly and lower the WP per cycle but then get rid of the timers. THEN, if we see Logistics guys all getting too much WP still... CCP can always lower the WP income per cycle/HP healed/Revive. It isn't as though they can't change the numbers once they change the system. That is how balance is achieved, after all.
The proposed changes in this thread WOULD result in lower WP scores for Militia Logistics fits and opportunistic Assaults/Scouts using nano injectors. Fact. It would also make it possible for an all Proto Logi who is damn good at his job to get 2500 WP...just like an all Proto Assault guy who is damn good at his job does currently. Balanced. Scaled. Fair.
If farming is that great of a concern then apply one idea in this thread (I forgot who proposed it) and have diminishing returns for triage on the same target set on a timer. Just like now, the timers would be active until such and such criteria are met or the timer expires. Only, during the timer instead of getting no WP, you get less and less until you are getting only 1 WP per cycle. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, either. Why not have strata? You heal 'x' number of cycles ON ONE GUY in a timeframe and you get full WP (+25 cycle). You heal 'x' plus 'x' number of cycles and you get +10 WP per cycle. You heal 'x' plus 'x' plus 'x'' cycles, you get +5 WP per cycle. Then +2. Then +1. So you can just sit and heal your Heavy comrade into oblivion but your rewards will diminish until the timer resets. It shouldn't apply to healing two guys at once, again, because that punishes a PRO Arm Rep user versus a MLT user. |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
49
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 04:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
S Park Finner wrote:The definition of boosting from the Urban Dictionary (Online) is
"In multi-player games, having other people assist you in getting leaderboard position or achievements (xbox 360 specific) by having other people help you in ways that go counter to the game's design. Most often done with one team throwing the game to another."
To apply that to DUST 514 the game modes we have now have two win conditions: killing off all the other teams clones or destroying the other teams MCC. If what a player does doesn't contribute to those goals and they are accruing entirely personal benefit (War Points, Skill Points, Kill/Death Ration, etc) then the player is boosting.
If the player is just fooling around -- say blasting around in a LAV -- then they are not really boosting, they are just playing a different game. Since much of EVE (and DUST 514 by extension) is a meta-game outside the formal win conditions there are real complications with defining boosting. But even with all that, I think we can live with the more limited definition above.
So if the "solution" limits the amount of boosting under that definition it will be successful.
A couple of points clarifying/reinforcing earlier posts...
I was not suggesting that any death or damage produces negative WP. I only wanted damage a player does to himself, to a team member, to a friendly installation or to friendly vehicles to have negative WP.
I'm an advocate of fine-grained rewards. We already have them with hacking so I don't believe CCP has a philosophical disagreement with them. Do more damage, get more rewards. Fix more damage, get more rewards.
I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that this is a solution looking for a problem. I agree that in corporate games none of this will make much difference. The thing we don't know is how much weight CCP will put on managing boosting in more casual game environments.
Boosting defined as such versus what I would call farming isn't actually against the intentions of CCP, to my thinking. Aren't we supposed to play to gain SP actively? I'm talking with regards to the games current state and the future of public matches.
If worrying about how many WPs one gains (and therefore SP/ISK) more than the success of your team is considered boosting, I seldom come across a soul who isn't boosting. Let me make this infinitely clear... basically every person would prefer to win versus lose. The only people who don't care one way or another aren't even playing the game (they are farming in the MCC or "blasting around on a LAV"). The former should be inexorably punished with little passion or prejudice. They contribute nothing to the match and nothing to the game and anyone actually trying to play should want them gone.
I think the guy blasting around on the LAV should just leave on his own, personally, but I guess you will always eventually find some guy bored to death with everything in his life that he just has to get his jollies any way he can. Some people consider playing ANY video game a waste of time. I am obviously not one of those people, but I do think blasting around in a LAV for the lulz is an actual waste of time...go play another game for a few weeks...read a book...write a book...something...ANYTHING else...
Back on topic...I agree that you should be penalized for harming teammates. That being said, it is actually a feat to harm teammates. With no FF, the only way I've seen a person harm their team is by running them over in a LAV (sadly it works) or shooting an installation railgun at your teams dropships causing them to crash (indirect harm). Harming oneself is another matter. I have killed myself multiple times with poor grenade throws, I will admit. I don't agree that the problem of griefing is such that EVERY accidental grenade throw out there should result in WP subtraction, though. I'd rather see one guy get away with griefing than one thousand guys get penalized for bobbling a grenade... provided the glitch allowing damage to ones teammates gets fixed in a reasonable time frame. THAT is the red herring. I was in a game the other day and a guy on my own team killed me by running me down in a LAV. There IS NO DEFENSE. No "vote to kick" mechanism. I can't whip an AV grenade at him (it won't harm him). I can't do anything except run from cover to cover (FROM MY OWN TEAMMATE). It was frustrating to have to watch not only the enemy but also the blue diamonds on my minimap. Needs a fix.
Hilariously enough...I probably gained 240 WP from reviving other fellows who'd run afoul of the LAV bandit. Ironic that it illustrates your very concerns, S Park FInner.
If they add FF in any stage of the game...then I think a subtraction system should be implemented without a second thought.
Anyways...I completely agree with Cross' last post (both in his well put definitions and his analyses of the equipment currently in the game). Bump. |
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