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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
ugg reset
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
234
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Posted - 2012.11.04 19:42:00 -
[61] - Quote
opps, read below |
ugg reset
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
234
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Posted - 2012.11.04 19:42:00 -
[62] - Quote
Free Healing wrote:The problem with Nanite Injectors is that the Higher Meta levels = High Risk Less reward.
Reviving is tricking and can't be done from range. It's very easy to get yourself killed when you run out to revive a fallen ally.
The BPO Nanite Injector doesn't cost anything so there is no risk in losing it for the gain of 60 WP. In contrast, the Advanced Nanite injector restores twice as much armor, and costs 20,000 (random value since i can't remember the exact price) times more than a BPO Nanite injector for the SAME WP gain.
You said that reviving your ally should be about them earning more WP, but that's not really the case. What does happen is that you made it so they didn't lose out on potentially hundereds of thousands worth of ISK when they died. Just because they got up at 50% HP instead of 25% doesn't mean that they're going to last any longer than normal.
THE END RESULT is that you spend MORE to gain NOTHING.
If i spend money on a better Nanite Injector to that i can revive SOMEBODY ELSE. I don't gain a thing. All i do is lose money when i die.
If spending my time trying to get something to make myself more effective ends up hurting me then something is wrong.
(Proposal)
Some may not like it but i'd like to see Nanite injectors as such:
Level 0 Injectors = HP - 20% / 20 WP (Uses more CPU and PG than Teir 1 Nanite Injectors)
Level 1 Injectors = HP - 20% / 20 WP (same gain, only it's easier to fit.)
Level 2 Injectors = HP - 40% / 40 WP
Level 3 Injectors = HP - 60% / 60 WP
Level 4 Injectors = HP - 80% / 80 WP
Level 5 Injectors = HP - 100% / 100 WP
What if i told you that the point of repping armor wasn't to get WP but to keep troops combat effective. the nice thing about higher Meta nanite pins is that an assault or scout suits that only have one equipment slot can use them to better affect since they don't have room for a repair tool. Logi user also benefit from better injectors since they're hassle free once used unlike repair tools that take time.
I am NOT saying that players shouldn't be rewarded for repairing armor but lets not forget that keeping people in the fight is the goal of logistics.
It's also worth noting that BPO's have high PG and CPU usage so there is a bit of a trade off.
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.04 20:04:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cannot tell if trolling or serious...
ugg reset wrote:sic the Whole point is to keep your teammate alive so that they can get more WP. ...but I'll respond to the idea in a serious manner.
The whole game is based on Risk vs Reward, so let's do a quick comparison.
Assault Rifles (example case, works for all weapons)
Item Risk Reward Militia 630 ISK: Dmg 30 HP; RoF 750 RPM; Accuracy 56; Clip 48; Max ammo 300; Reload 3.5 S;
Duvolle 77,720 ISK Dmg 52.2 HP; RoF 789.5 RPM, Accuracy 57.1; Clip 30, Max ammo 300, Reload 3.0 S, Weaponry 1 AR Operation 5 AR Prof. 1
Benefit of use: The enhanced Damage, Rate of Fire, Accuracy, and Reload time all contribute to faster/more kills and assists. This protects your ISK investment by increasing your odds of survival (a dead hostile isn't killing you) and gives you higher War Point awards per match thus leading to a faster skill progression (SP awards are derived from WPs gained).
Now looking at the Logi Equipment
Drop Uplink Item Risk Reward Militia 1,240 ISK Max Active 1; Carried 2; Spawn time mod 0.0 %; Spawns per unit 10;
Imperial 31,760 ISK Max Active 2; Max Carried 3; Spawn time mod -20%; Spawns per unit 20; Electronic 4 Drop Uplink 5
Nanite Injector Item Risk Reward Militia 690 ISK Armor repair on revival 30.0 %;
Proto 25,580 ISK Armor repair on revival 80%; Electronics 3 Nanocircutry 5
Nanohive Item Risk Reward Militia 480 ISK Max Active 2; Carried 2; Nanite Clusters 64; Range 4 M; Ammo Resupply rate 15%;
Flux 25,920 ISK Max Active 2; Carried 3; Nanite Clusiters 76; Range 7.7 M; Ammo Resupply rate 22.5% Electronics 3 Nanocircuitry 5
Repair Tool Item Risk Reward Militia 620 ISK Rep on suits 25 HP/S; Rep on Vehicle 75 HP/S; Range 15M; Targets 1;
Triage 33,320 ISK Rep on suits 43 HP/S; Rep on Vehicle 78 HP/S, Distance 21M, Targets 2 Mechanics 1 Remote Repair Systems 5
Benefit of use:
Drop Uplink The enhanced number of active links, Rate of Spawn, and Spawns per link all contribute to faster/more spawns. This gives higher War Point awards per match thus leading to a faster skill progression (SP awards are derived from WPs gained). Conclusion: The Drop Uplink is inline with the baseline established by the AR.
Nanite Injector There is no increase in either Accuracy or Rate of Revival, thus zero effective net gain over use of the Militia variant. Further the Proto version restores more armor at the same WP gain as the Militia version thus transferring repair of that armor from a WP gaining activity (use of the Repair Tool) to a non WP gaining activity (use of the Proto Injector). Conclusion: The Injector is converse to the baseline established by the AR. Use of higher Risk gear results in an effective net decrease in Reward.
Nanohive The increase in carried, clusters, range and rate lead to an increase in War Point awards, the Flux is in line with the baseline established by the AR. The problem rather is with the armor repairing variants like the K17/Z which suffer not only from lower stats (to balance their ability to repair armor) but faster depletion rates for armor repair as compared to ammo resupply, while both activity's grant the same WP. Conclusion: Repper variant Nanohives need a rework to be in line with the AR. Other variants seem to employ a proper Risk vs Reward progression.
Repair Tool The Repair Tools enhanced HP repped per second results in a net decrease to War Points earned as WP awards are derived from Repair Tool cycles rather than actual HP repaired. None of the other attributes of the higher Meta tool mitigate the effects of this baseline decrease in WP earning potential. Conclusion: The Repair Tool is converse to the baseline established by the AR. Use of higher Risk gear results in an effective net decrease in Reward.
Summery Those equipment modules listed above which deviate from the established Risk vs Reward baseline provided by weapons need to be reworked such that they are brought into line (i.e. balanced) with the baseline case.
Cross
ps ~ ensuring this Risk vs Reward progression is fully implemented game wide will reduce the frequency and effect of farming exploits. (Note: I said reduce not eliminate.)
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.05 11:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
bump for the healers |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.07 04:57:00 -
[65] - Quote
Does anyone see a logical flaw in [/i]Post #63[/i] above or have a managed to formulate something which make sense not just to Logi's but also to those who haven't tried their hand at the role?
To wit; the War Point awards scaling for Logi equipment should be kept in line with that of weapons like the Assault Rifle (Please see post above for details)
Cheers, Cross |
The Robot Devil
BetaMax.
15
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Posted - 2012.11.07 08:03:00 -
[66] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way
Thank you, why should logistics get more points for better gear? No one else gets more points for better stuff why should we? I wish the SP was passive so this thread would be pointless. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.08 00:00:00 -
[67] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:ugg reset wrote:If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way Thank you, why should logistics get more points for better gear? No one else gets more points for better stuff why should we? I wish the SP was passive so this thread would be pointless.
Read my post directly above yours, and Post #63 to which it refers. The current system does give an effective increase in War Point awards to 'killer classes' as you use better gear, it gives a lower potential War Point gain to 'medic' classes for investment of Skill Points and ISK into higher level gear.
The proposal of this thread is to bring the War Point award mechanics for Logi in line with those of someone using an Assault Rifle. If you have an objection to those two aspects of Dust scaling in an equitable parallel manner please provide specific details as to why.
0.02 ISK Cross |
ugg reset
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
234
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Posted - 2012.11.08 00:22:00 -
[68] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:ugg reset wrote:If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way Thank you, why should logistics get more points for better gear? No one else gets more points for better stuff why should we? I wish the SP was passive so this thread would be pointless. Read my post directly above yours, and Post #63 to which it refers. The current system does give an effective increase in War Point awards to 'killer classes' as you use better gear, it gives a lower potential War Point gain to 'medic' classes for investment of Skill Points and ISK into higher level gear. The proposal of this thread is to bring the War Point award mechanics for Logi in line with those of someone using an Assault Rifle. If you have an objection to those two aspects of Dust scaling in an equitable parallel manner please provide specific details as to why. 0.02 ISK Cross
I say just keep it action based. the more you use it the more points you get. All the logi equipment dose the same thing higher tier stuff just does it better. ya repair tools get the short end of the stick but its an easy fix; give them the same amount of points for each tool but better tools get points faster.
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.08 00:43:00 -
[69] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:Cross Atu wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:ugg reset wrote:If you feel that then entire point of Logistics is to Grind Warpoints then keep pushing for change. At the moment you get wp for performing an action regardless of what price you paid for your tools in the market for it. I wouldn't have it any other way Thank you, why should logistics get more points for better gear? No one else gets more points for better stuff why should we? I wish the SP was passive so this thread would be pointless. Read my post directly above yours, and Post #63 to which it refers. The current system does give an effective increase in War Point awards to 'killer classes' as you use better gear, it gives a lower potential War Point gain to 'medic' classes for investment of Skill Points and ISK into higher level gear. The proposal of this thread is to bring the War Point award mechanics for Logi in line with those of someone using an Assault Rifle. If you have an objection to those two aspects of Dust scaling in an equitable parallel manner please provide specific details as to why. 0.02 ISK Cross I say just keep it action based. the more you use it the more points you get. All the logi equipment dose the same thing higher tier stuff just does it better. ya repair tools get the short end of the stick but its an easy fix; give them the same amount of points for each tool but better tools get points faster.
What you have said above is, in fact, the goal of this thread. Simply to fix the Logi Equipment so that it gains WP/SP in the same manner as the AR et al (i.e. so the better equipment gives the user the opportunity to earn points faster). I'm glad through discussion we've found ourselves to be on the same page
Cheers, Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.09 18:56:00 -
[70] - Quote
Since I've seen no less than two other threads relating to this issue on the first page of the forums (feedback and general) I figured it was time to bring this back to the top.
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ugg reset
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
234
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Posted - 2012.11.11 01:10:00 -
[71] - Quote
Le bump |
Daera Cadaith
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.11.12 11:39:00 -
[72] - Quote
After playing a logi I fully agree with the OP, I aldo agree with the idea presented on page one about rewarding for reppung done and not completed cycles.
Also sad to see so many trolls on the beta boards, I wonder if they realize they are hurting the process of developing a game by trolling on beta forums.
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Valmar Shadereaver
Lost-Legion
18
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Posted - 2012.11.12 12:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
i use my best suit fit on most map's 3-5 time's (causing huge isk sink if enemy lucky overkill's -.- ) so im runing around whit 80% revive and advanced repair tool most of the time sure if i revive ppl they dont die as fast as other's and require less repair keeping me firing faster and longer doesent change the fact most time's some asaulth bluebery run's in and revive's the guys whit is militia nanite injecter causing the longer repair need and posible redown on it
are you going to tell the new player's or asaulth oriented guys to put points in something they dont wanne role in? im just hapy geting picked up if the enemy's are dead wich sadly over halve of the time there are no triage's nearby and 25% of the time's there is they dont even bother picking you up either they forget they got the nanite injecter (highly doubt this cause you only see down icon's whit the injector) unless they are inside a vechical in wich case you dont see the downed icon's on the minimap
even if ppl start using the beter gear its highly unlickly that asaulth type player's wanne waste there sp on a suportive non combat increasing skill's even less cause they have to remove one of there beter item's to make CPU/PG requirdment for the beter nanite's |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.11.12 15:07:00 -
[74] - Quote
Part of the problem with the WP grind that got Wp completely removed from Repair Tools was exactly this.
You could fit a Militia Repair Tool, and get just as many WP ticks as you got for using the better Tools, but you'd be stacking those bonuses for longer while repping, then jump in, o a small amount of damage, and spend lots of time raking in the WP.
They really need variable WP earnings for the damage you repair, so for every X seconds you spend repairing someone, you get a tick whose WP value is based on the amount of healing you did during that time. Or you get fixed-value ticks of repair points for specific amounts of damage repaired, rather than for time spent repairing.
That way, Militia Repair Tools either earn you less ticks over time, or less points per tick.
This way, the stat-padder Logi exploiters will have to bring high-quality gear, and will therefore have to RISK that high-quality gear on a luck enemy shot. |
VADOL II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2012.11.15 05:39:00 -
[75] - Quote
Bump to keep in mind |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.15 20:44:00 -
[76] - Quote
Valmar Shadereaver wrote:i use my best suit fit on most map's 3-5 time's (causing huge isk sink if enemy lucky overkill's -.- ) so im runing around whit 80% revive and advanced repair tool most of the time sure if i revive ppl they dont die as fast as other's and require less repair keeping me firing faster and longer doesent change the fact most time's some asaulth bluebery run's in and revive's the guys whit is militia nanite injecter causing the longer repair need and posible redown on it
are you going to tell the new player's or asaulth oriented guys to put points in something they dont wanne role in? im just hapy geting picked up if the enemy's are dead wich sadly over halve of the time there are no triage's nearby and 25% of the time's there is they dont even bother picking you up either they forget they got the nanite injecter (highly doubt this cause you only see down icon's whit the injector) unless they are inside a vechical in wich case you dont see the downed icon's on the minimap
even if ppl start using the beter gear its highly unlickly that asaulth type player's wanne waste there sp on a suportive non combat increasing skill's even less cause they have to remove one of there beter item's to make CPU/PG requirdment for the beter nanite's
The goal isn't to force anyone to use the better gear. The goal is the make the better gear worth using on all fronts (i.e. spending Skill Points and ISK to use better gear shouldn't cause a net loss in key results).
As to telling new players to use higher meta hives/injectors/tools. Once they're fixed so I can honestly say they're a better value to use then yes I do plan to post a thread in the training forum explaining the virtues of each piece of equipment and it's progression up the meta 'ladder'.
As to assault players running triage equipment, I applaud those who do but I certainly don't expect it. After all it's not the primary focus of their battlefield role. However giving Logistics Players a real motive (beyond pure altruism) to run the best gear, now that is something I'd like to see.
Cheers, Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.18 11:04:00 -
[77] - Quote
Bump for the healers. |
IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
12
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Posted - 2012.11.18 16:33:00 -
[78] - Quote
I feel its better if CCP fixes it RIGHT, rather than using the easy way out. The original OP is a great short term solution, but doesnt fix the problem.
Awarding points for amount repaired is the most effective way of awarding the logibros. Cycles should not matter as there are many times that a "cycle" doesnt even complete and you still rep the heavy in front of you......because thats your job.
If its based on cycle, it will just make logis wait until a specific threshold is made.....say half armor, before they start repping to get the full WP gain. Also losing locks and breaking your cycle is a major problem with the cycle mechanic.
Agreed on the injectors providing wp on the amount of armor they provide. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.18 20:09:00 -
[79] - Quote
IgniteableAura wrote:I feel its better if CCP fixes it RIGHT, rather than using the easy way out. The original OP is a great short term solution, but doesnt fix the problem.
Awarding points for amount repaired is the most effective way of awarding the logibros. Cycles should not matter as there are many times that a "cycle" doesnt even complete and you still rep the heavy in front of you......because thats your job.
If its based on cycle, it will just make logis wait until a specific threshold is made.....say half armor, before they start repping to get the full WP gain. Also losing locks and breaking your cycle is a major problem with the cycle mechanic.
Agreed on the injectors providing wp on the amount of armor they provide.
I fully agree that having a static WP award per HP repaired mechanic is the ideal solution, the OP is presented as an alternative if for some mechanical reason CCP cannot/will not do away with the "cycle" system. The other benefit of having an established WP to HP repped ratio is that it would make balancing nano hives (specifically the repppers, but by extension all of them) easier as well, and would align directly with scaling the nano injectors.
Thus it would establish a uniform baseline for equipment and allow the choice to be made based on player preferences and situational tactical value as opposed to "which is least broken" as the current system does.
Thanks for your response
Cheers, Cross |
VADOL II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2012.11.21 00:49:00 -
[80] - Quote
People need to continue to see this. |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.11.22 19:12:00 -
[81] - Quote
This still needs to happen. Hopefully it will when repair tool war points are back. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.25 18:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:This still needs to happen. Hopefully it will when repair tool war points are back. +1
My thoughts as well, I'd expect this next build or the build after. Until then (or until an update confirms it's coming) I'll keep this thread alive to be sure the idea doesn't get lost in the shuffle. |
VADOL II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2012.11.29 01:44:00 -
[83] - Quote
This thread is relevant to my interests. |
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
108
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Posted - 2012.11.29 02:04:00 -
[84] - Quote
Please have something up for next build.
I feel good healing up my bros (and my sisters), but I get that hole inside when I know I could've earned more had I not been healing. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.30 06:57:00 -
[85] - Quote
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote:Please have something up for next build.
I feel good healing up my bros (and my sisters), but I get that hole inside when I know I could've earned more had I not been healing.
Agreed, I really hope that the new and improved Repair Tool (complete with War Point awards) made it into this upcoming build. I still run my Repair Tool even now, but it is a bitter sweet affair and I can't seem to bring myself to invest any SP into better reppers. |
VADOL II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2012.12.02 00:59:00 -
[86] - Quote
While not entirely relevant to this thread, I would like to see reppers that do more than the Triage variant. It would be nice to be able to deal out nearly as much repair as incoming DPS. Perhaps and Adv Proto Rep that does 2x Triage. |
ugg reset
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
234
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 16:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
VADOL II wrote: While not entirely relevant to this thread, I would like to see reppers that do more than the Triage variant. It would be nice to be able to deal out nearly as much repair as incoming DPS. Perhaps and Adv Proto Rep that does 2x Triage. try the logi LAV. I think you will like what you see. |
VADOL II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 22:44:00 -
[88] - Quote
But running a LAV behind infantry is not very practical. Big open target for Swarms when not moving.
Perhaps when we get bigger player battles it could be done to have a mobile rep/repair/spawn point. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 02:41:00 -
[89] - Quote
VADOL II wrote: While not entirely relevant to this thread, I would like to see reppers that do more than the Triage variant. It would be nice to be able to deal out nearly as much repair as incoming DPS. Perhaps and Adv Proto Rep that does 2x Triage.
As mentioned the LAV has some great potential, however in response to the infantry Repair Tool variegation you're talking about what if it had a 'buildup + overheat' mechanic ah la the Laser Rifle.
The idea would be that this Repair Tool could actually put out enough HP/sec in repairs to counter incoming weapon DPS, however since there would still be lock-on time, and there would be an upper limit to consecutive repping due to the overheat, there would be more player skill and battlefield awareness.
I really like the idea you are proposing, giving Logi's the tools required to counter incoming damage raises their viability to be comparable with the assault classes in a firefight. Adding an overheat mechanic maintains balance, promote player skill, and increase tactical depth. You'd have to employ battlefield awareness to know when and where the tool is best employed, compare the situational benefits of Repper vs Weapon and weigh the cost benefit ratio of increased effect vs overheat damage and delay.
This style of Repair Tool fits nicely within the planned "superpowers" modules CCP has announced they're pursuing and with the Laser Rifle as a template should be relatively easy to implement. This also has the added benefit of giving increased diversity within the Adv./Prototype range thus providing additional incentive to level up the related support skills and more options for player creativity in developing fittings.
Cheers, Cross
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DJINN Destroyer
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
4
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Posted - 2012.12.04 07:40:00 -
[90] - Quote
"+1" Logistics players do not get enough credit. We keep our squads alive, we should revive point for repairs on our squad and team members. It irks me that some guy can get more points than anyone else by running people over. I think my point is that healing players shoul be rewarded. |
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