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[Suggestion]A Injector and Repper solution for LogiBros

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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 822	Posted - 2013.03.14 02:24:00 - [181] - Quote @Moonracer2000, glad to see you back and no worries about the time frame I pretty much agree with everything in the post you've just added. You've hit the heart of the matter, the inconsistency of reward for repairs is a problem. I believe the confusion surrounding the issue as it currently stands is compounded by there being inconsistency in both the method (cap, timer, qualifiers, et al) and rate (risk vs reward/meta scaling) of the rewards. It seems to me that if method were addressed in a manner like what you propose, with some additional changes made to address rate as well that the present inconsistencies would be remedied. And while this would still leave newer medics earning on average less, to an extent that is a base mechanic of the game, that higher investment garners higher rewards. Glad to see you back, Cheers, Cross
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 253	Posted - 2013.03.14 02:46:00 - [182] - Quote I think the solution should include all forms of logi though. We are just talking about dropsuit on dropsuit, but I think the whole matrix of repairs should have some comprehensive reward system. Repairing installations, vehicles, and vehicles repairing everything. There has to be a way to make it viable.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 822	Posted - 2013.03.14 03:00:00 - [183] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: I think the solution should include all forms of logi though. We are just talking about dropsuit on dropsuit, but I think the whole matrix of repairs should have some comprehensive reward system. Repairing installations, vehicles, and vehicles repairing everything. There has to be a way to make it viable. That's a good point as well, it's rare to see Logistics LAVs on the field and the lack of rewards for something so SP intensive (as much so as any other battlefield role and more than some) is on the same level with the Dropship or perhaps even a bit more restrictive. Beyond that once the secondary (aka player) market goes live along with the ability to deploy assets such as buildings and buy/lose things like the MCC (to say nothing of the new gear which will likely give AV more teeth than it currently has) the full array of logistical support will become even more significant, as by extension will ensuring an evenhanded approach to rewarding it. Perhaps I can incorporate those aspects into my OP reboot, at the very least I shall make a note that they remain unaddressed. Thanks for posting. Cheers, Cross
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 23	Posted - 2013.03.14 07:53:00 - [184] - Quote Awesome thread is awesome. I couldn't agree with the essence of this entire thread more. There is a massive parity in the Risk vs. Reward paradigm of the Eve/Dust universe between certain battlefield roles that needs to be addressed. You see the same problems with dedicated Dropship Pilots (to a much much worse degree, imo). Using better DSs yields better TACTICAL results (you fly longer, die less easily and probably get more kill assists via better guns and gunners) at a much higher ISK and SP cost. The same is true of dedicated LogiBros (a class to which I am currently on the path to joining). You spend more on better tools, they require greater SP and yet your rewards SUFFER for their use. Less WP Reward for far greater Risk. If I roll a proto Cal Assault suit, a Duvolle, Complex damage mods, etc... and I am as proficient in "player skills" as I am in meta skill, then I can reasonably expect greater returns on my use of proto gear. More kills equals more WP, more WP means more SP/ISK. I Risk more ISK in the venture, as proto gear costs multiples more ISK to fit but the general paradigm of Risk vs. Reward is preserved. If I roll a proto Min Logi suit, a proto nano injector, a proto armor repair tool...and I am as proficient in "player skills" as I am in meta skill, I will get LESS WP than if I use militia gear. Faster healing and more health on revives (which means less missing health to repair as well) allows less access to WP than using militia derivatives. More Risk in ISK spent on proto gear for less Reward in the form of WP and therefore SP/ISK. Completely contrary to the sandbox nature of the MMORPG portion of Dust. I like the idea of making the cycle time of proto armor reppers shorter and increasing armor repaired per cycle. I warmed up to the overheating idea, too (pun intended). For spikes, I think a simple 30WP for Militia/Standard, 50WP for Advanced and 80WP for Proto makes perfect sense. One WP per %health returned to the revivee. People might say that is too low on the low end, but that's the point. Discourage all these Assault suit guys from running around spiking people for maximum WP and shafting their own LogiBros, who dedicate their in-game time and SP to reviving and triage. I definitely don't like the current "timer" system they have. I understand that it is a hotfix to an exploit, but it is crap and needs to be changed. If that means lowering the WP income per cycle in order to keep returns consistent then so be it. As far as the current system theoretically resulting in the same amount of WP between militia and proto ( 'x' maximum triage WP within a set of parameters where 'x' is the same regardless of tool used)... I say shenanigans on that. That is assuming too much. Since the proto reppers heal two people at once, potentially, and heal more health you are going to hit the WP max timers much more quickly, yet they run out at the same speed for everyone. All that means is more time spent doing "free" triage for no gains, even if you heal ten times as many people. Even if you hit the timers as many times with each setup and, therefore, end the match with the same amount of WP...it still doesn't address the greater cost of the proto logi gear in both ISK and SP needed for use. Same WP for MUCH greater cost...who would use proto then? There is a clear advantage to using a Duvolle AR over a Militia AR. The Duvolle is statistically better in every single way, except RoF which I believe is the same. Getting a better AR does not guarantee more kills, but it will never PUNISH you for using it (aside from cost). Using the proto spike or repper guarantees less WP per target, especially when used in tandem. Kudos, Cross, for pulling out the stops on this subject. Change is necessary here...
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 24	Posted - 2013.03.14 07:59:00 - [185] - Quote Quick addition... Why no WP for repairing vehicles or installations? Doesn't need to be a lot. Something like +5 per cycle (unless overheating gets added, then it'd need a buff), limited at whatever seems fair to the Devs just like triage now. It isn't about getting more WP for Logi guys. It is about getting WP for doing anything and everything (in fair amounts to each "class"). Hacking gets WP, destroying gets WP, killing gets WP. Armor repair is the primary function of a healing logistics guy, so why does it seem so marginalized?
Robert JD Niewiadomski Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2013.03.14 08:40:00 - [186] - Quote I am a logi. And i don't see a problem with less WP for doing my duty. The reward for me is immaterial. I don't have to kill. But someone have to do it. Let's not kid ourselves. DUST is FPS. It means it is aimed at killing by various methods. For logis to have to do anything there must be somebody to provide a task and do a dirty work. For logis to clean up the mess WP stands for War Points. War means death and destruction. And a logi is trying to do something opposite. So don't expect to be rewarded for desertion... Worst of all a logi is an easy target. And respawns a lot. This means we eat up clones quick. Hopefully our "sacrifice' means that clones reserves depletion by non logis will drop significantly and reduces a battle re-entry to min. for them. Giving more time to focus on hacking objectives and depleting adversary's clones reserves. So the balance is this: A logi gets peace of mind but less WP/ISK/SP. A non logi stains his conscience and is reimbursed by more WP/ISK/SP So ask yourselves this: Do you logi for WP or for peace of mind? If for WP then just tap R2 lightly and then R1 and forget about rezzing or repping... But you will gain more WPs... DUST is not meant to be fair unfortunately. In it's game summary it brags about unending conflict. We logis are just a drop in the ocean. Let's be frank. The war can continue without us and we are on our own. If we want to be of some use we need to be better not because of WP incentive but because we want to bring life not death. But... there is a catch if you do this for higher reason. When you rezz a merc you bring back somebody to life and this means somebody else is probably going to die thanks to your effiort. This is wicked... So even when you think you don't kill, you do after all... By proxy... Given all of the above it is surprising there is a possibility to be a logi in DUST. But it is very kind of you CCP. There is Light at the end of this tunnel. And this is not some piece of machinery or danger approaching. Don't give up your logi effort. It will pay out but not in the form of WP. After all for a true logi it's not about WP. Thanks
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 25	Posted - 2013.03.15 06:43:00 - [187] - Quote Robert JD Niewiadomski wrote: I am a logi. And i don't see a problem with less WP for doing my duty. The reward for me is immaterial. I don't have to kill. But someone have to do it. Let's not kid ourselves. DUST is FPS. It means it is aimed at killing by various methods. For logis to have to do anything there must be somebody to provide a task and do a dirty work. For logis to clean up the mess (1)WP stands for War Points. War means death and destruction. And a logi is trying to do something opposite. So don't expect to be rewarded for desertion... Worst of all a logi is an easy target. And respawns a lot. This means we eat up clones quick. Hopefully our "sacrifice' means that clones reserves depletion by non logis will drop significantly and reduces a battle re-entry to min. for them. Giving more time to focus on hacking objectives and depleting adversary's clones reserves. (2)So the balance is this: A logi gets peace of mind but less WP/ISK/SP. A non logi stains his conscience and is reimbursed by more WP/ISK/SP So ask yourselves this: Do you logi for WP or for peace of mind? If for WP then just tap R2 lightly and then R1 and forget about rezzing or repping... But you will gain more WPs... DUST is not meant to be fair unfortunately. In it's game summary it brags about unending conflict. We logis are just a drop in the ocean. Let's be frank. The war can continue without us and we are on our own. If we want to be of some use we need to be better not because of WP incentive but because we want to bring life not death. But... there is a catch if you do this for higher reason. When you rezz a merc you bring back somebody to life and this means somebody else is probably going to die thanks to your effiort. This is wicked... So even when you think you don't kill, you do after all... By proxy... Given all of the above it is surprising there is a possibility to be a logi in DUST. But it is very kind of you CCP. (3)There is Light at the end of this tunnel. And this is not some piece of machinery or danger approaching. Don't give up your logi effort. It will pay out but not in the form of WP. After all for a true logi it's not about WP. Thanks Huh? What? Is this serious? Not even my thread and I almost feel trolled. I completely appreciate your Roleplayers attitude and commitment, assuming this IS a serious post. LogiBros are the white light...the selfless shield. We risk our skins to save the lives of our fallen comrades and often find our clone bodies taking their place among the fallen. It is our cross and burden and we grit our teeth and bear it. Lets be real though. This is a Request/Feedback forum on the mechanics of a video game in Beta development. The RP is great but is definitely best kept IN the game or elsewhere on the forums. Here is the reason why: (1)You are correct that WP means War Points. War is brutal and ugly in its entirety, but is a fixture of the human experience (ours and denizens of New Eden) and isn't going away any time soon. A Logi serves the battlefield effort trying to bring fallen allies back into form. War Points are rewarded for accomplishing goals though, not some karmic demerits on our souls. If you don't want to accrue WP for KILLING then simply don't kill and only heal. No black marks on your conscience. You will still gain WP for your triage and revival efforts. Perhaps your issue is with the name "War Points" and not with accruing some form of reward? (2)Your notion of "balance" sortof eludes me. Logi suits and tools still cost ISK (and often more ISK per suit than Assaults and Scouts). Logistics skills still cost SP to raise. You say you are fine with earning less WP and therefore less SP/ISK...well I'm bloody not. I don't care a fig whether I earn cosmic punishment in some imagined New Eden afterlife for killing or gaining WP, the fact of the matter is that WP is a game mechanic that directly impacts character development. If you make Logis gain them less quickly because they don't kill, you cripple Logis as a playable class. If you personally don't care, that is your business and perfectly within your providence, but the fact is that every class MUST have an equal shake when it comes to meta development or the entire nature of the game is broken. This is all completely ignoring the fact that Logis can easily gain far more WP (especially at Meta 1) than their combatant counterparts anyways. (3)Nope. Nada. Every single class IS most certainly about getting WP. Not KILLS...but WP. WPs are the path to character development and are necessary for any person playing the game to attain unless you want to spend your entire D514 existence in starter fits. All these things are completely irrelevant anyways. The OP is about matching meta level of Logi gear to gains in WP and therefore SP/ISK, rather than the current system which rewards use of proto logistics gear with FEWER WP and therefore penalizes their use. PS. This was mostly a response for fun and was actually just a convoluted way to bump the thread because I think the topic is important
Robert JD Niewiadomski Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2013.03.15 10:12:00 - [188] - Quote Look, if you wan't more WP/ISK then shoot more. DUST is about shooting so i think it's fair i can get ANY WP at all for doing the opposite. I don't want to shoot (though it's hard not to kill in this game but i keep on trying ) . I don't think a logi role was meant by CCP as the main source of WP for character advancement. The way it is arranged is to discourage to be a pure logi. Don't expect CCP to change this by granting you more WP for being a logi... HTFU and all that... The bonus you receive for using better repper, rezzer and skills is in the form of time. It takes less time to repp something with better tools (or less time to destroy something with better arms taking more HP). If you have good hacking skills (or tools) you hack faster. But reward in WP is the same if you do it slower. Less time spent on not fighting gives you more time to spend in the battle. That's a logi bonus. Additional time (cos time is currency). A rezz or repp is a rezz or repp. Does it matter how fast? It only matters if it's successful. And rezzing or repping is seen as a lesser activity in DUST imho. There is no rezz count. Only kill or death ratio (mine is 1/80+ ). You will always get another clone. Won't you? No big deal if it dies. And if you have a BPO you don't need to worry for your lost gear too. But a logi can spare you some time needed for re-spawning. Nothing to brag about much. A "Thanx lbro!" is enough... That's all i wanted to say... I agree if you disagree and i am no authority on any matter... Just my 0.02 ISK...
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 26	Posted - 2013.03.16 09:23:00 - [189] - Quote You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I completely disagree with you, mind you. Being a logistics guy is still an in-game class. You need to advance just like other classes and you need money to buy more gear just like other classes. In THIS game, WP is the path to skills and money and, therefore, all classes should obtain WP at the same rate relative to their skills (both as a player and meta). A combatant focuses primarily on getting kills as their source of WP, a logistics guy primarily on triage and revivals as their source. Hopefully someday a pilot will get WP for dropping off infantry into the fray. Maybe things like radar detection modules will allow scouts a +5 per red dot scanned down, making being a true scout a viable play style (again, no kills necessary). A sniper can throw down a nanohive to gain +10 for resupplying their teammates or grab an injector and revive a fallen comrade for +60, no kills necessary. A logibro can always grab an AR and get to dirty working for +50 or +25. I understand your point. Rezzing or repping are primary rewards in and of themselves, right? You resurrect a teammate and it saves your team a clone. You perform triage and it adds armor to a hurt teammate, hopefully staving off another team clone loss for a time. That is a good point. However, you are talking about what I call *tactical* rewards. They help your team win matches without a doubt. Winning a match means nothing though, right now, aside from stroking egos. Everyone likes to win and I, personally, always try for a team victory. You make one fatal mistake. You assume that logistics' sole reason for existence are those tactical rewards. An assault guy gets tactical rewards too...when he kills an enemy clone. The death of an orange clone is the Assault version of reviving a blue clone for Logistics. Each yields a *tactical* result for the person in question. Tactical rewards do not gain you WP, though. WP are the engine through which ISK and SP are gained and the ONLY engine (ignoring passive SP gain since all players get that). If logistics equipment and suits were free and didn't require skills, then I would agree with you that gaining WP is completely unnecessary. Since they cost SP to use and ISK (some would argue more than Assaults, Scouts and most Heavies) then your theory gets blown to hell. Again, this entire debate is completely off topic, though. This thread isn't about methods for Logis to gain more WP. We mostly gain enough WP at current anyways. This thread is about ways to make logistics scale properly. A standard Logi shouldn't be gaining more WP than a prototype Logi, pure and simple. Proto Logis should be competitive in terms of WP with their Assault, Scout and Heavy counterparts and they aren't because of the broken way proto Logi tools punish their users. PS. Another shameless bump.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 830	Posted - 2013.03.21 20:09:00 - [190] - Quote @Thrillhouse Van Houten, thanks for taking care of the thread while IRL concerns kept me away I'll quote the OP below to save it's text as the OP reboot is coming very soon. Cross Atu wrote: A problem currently confronting LogiBros is that the War Point system, as it stands, rewards use of the basic Repair tool over the use of the higher quality Repair Tools. This also bleeds over into Nano Injectors where use of the expensive and skill intensive Injectors awards only as many War Points as the milita gear. The two compound when considered together as the best War Point gain is garnered buy running the lowest quality injector and tool in combination. The solution for the Injectors is simple, scale the War Points awarded to account for the extra healing done beyond the base value to account for the extra amount repaired. Rep Tools are a little more complex. Part of their problem is that points are awarded at the end of a cycle rather than in real time, part is that each cycle awards the same amount of points, making Tools that heal more per cycle award fewer War Points for the same total amount repaired. A total overhaul of the system would be more development resource intensive so the solution proposed below attempts to avoid (what seem to be) the more resource intensive changes to the system in favor of (what seem to be) lighter tweaks, in hopes that I can help save CCP on the overhead. As such the best solution appears to be a two fold implementation; First tag the WP gain as higher for higher level gear. This could be done by applying a WP gain amount to each Rep Tool individually or more elegantly by using the Meta Level of the Tool to flag it's awards for a multiplier of some size (specific numbers to be determined by testing, but the goal would be WP awards in keeping with amount Repaired). Second, to avoid having to rework the whole Repair Tool system, reduce the War Point awards, time taken, and amount healed per rep cycle. This faster cycle eliminates the need for use of more advanced algorithms to track damage/rep streams, mitigates the problem with War Points being awarded at the end of the Repair Tool cycle, and allows for easier scaling of War Point awards between Tools of differing Meta Levels. The major drawback to this fix is that it might require a rework of the associated skill values to maintain their effects as intended but altering skill values seems like a lower resource investment than developing a new Rep/WP mechanic for Tools and Injectors. Fellow Logies, CCP, betas in general, please chime in with your feedback. Cheers, Cross EDIT: Executive summery Current iteration of Repair Tool and Nano Injector system mechanics reward the use of low Meta gear over the use of high Meta gear. The reward disparity for Repair Tool and Nano Injectors is magnified when the mechanics of the current iteration are considered in context. The fundamental flaws in the current mechanics are; 1) Tracking Repair tool cycles rather than amounts healed. 2) Tracking successful Nano Injector uses rather than amounts healed. (There are additional flaws but those two comprise the heart of the awards problem) Solve the above problems by tying War Point awards for Repair Tool and Nano Injector use to the Meta Level of the device used. In the case of Injectors simply scale the awards to account for the extra (above the effect of Meta 1 gear) health restored by the higher Meta Injectors. In the case of the Repair Tool reduce the following attributes. War Point awards per cycle, cycle time, and amount healed per cycle. The new GÇÿmicroGÇÖ cycles for the Repair Tool can then be more readily scaled by Meta level to provide War Point awards appropriate to their effect. A simple method for scaling War Point awards would be Meta 1 multiplies total awards by a factor of 1, with each higher Meta level increasing the multiplier (specific amounts of increase to be determined by testing).

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 831	Posted - 2013.03.21 20:50:00 - [191] - Quote The OP has been updated for Chromosome.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 7	Posted - 2013.03.21 20:54:00 - [192] - Quote All this Support increasing WP sounds awesome, makes it faster to call in Orbital Strike, but I think what CCP may be going for is trying to find ways to increase interactivity between Eve and Dust. Making it easier to call in NPC Orbitals makes it less likely to need any ships assistance. I also think the focus is trying to get people into corps and fighting for planets and such. Corps and squads would already know the value of a good support player even above a good shooter. As for the leaderboards, yea sure all this sounds great.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 831	Posted - 2013.03.21 21:18:00 - [193] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: All this Support increasing WP sounds awesome, makes it faster to call in Orbital Strike, but I think what CCP may be going for is trying to find ways to increase interactivity between Eve and Dust. Making it easier to call in NPC Orbitals makes it less likely to need any ships assistance. I also think the focus is trying to get people into corps and fighting for planets and such. Corps and squads would already know the value of a good support player even above a good shooter. As for the leaderboards, yea sure all this sounds great. This thread has nothing at all to do with the leaderboards. It is also (as explicitly stated at the start of the thread) not about asking for a "buff" it is an assessment of proper scaling. Again this thread is about War Point scaling not War Point buffing. Having reiterated that, we can move on to your mention of Orbitals. You seem to misunderstand the way orbital support works. To call in either a Precision Strike from the MCC or an Orbital Bombardment from an EVE player in space both require a squad to collectively earn 2500 WP. Hence even if the goal of this thread were to increase overall WP awards on balance (which it is not) doing so would actually increase the possible frequency of interactions between EVE/Dust players. Planetary Conquest is a key aspect of the game no doubt, and two fundamental parts of that (as well as the maintenance of any effective Corp) are tactical team play and ISK management. The current awards system for support actions is detrimental to both by mechanically making them adversarial goals. As it stands the present mechanics cause a zero sum choice between effective team play and effective Risk vs Reward management within support actions. In essence the more you support your team the lower your own SP/ISK gains and the weaker your progression thus the less you're able to support your Corp in the long run. On the other hand if you focus on running fits effective for earning WP/SP/ISK then your tactics and fits are weaker for team support creating bad play habits, confusing new players and in the end still making you less capable of supporting your Corp. The player is, under the present iteration, put in a lose lose situation reducing fun, detracting from social interaction (hard to participate in a Corp if you can't properly pull your weight) and turning off many new players. Finally to reiterate yet again, this thread has nothing to do with leaderboard concerns nor with players giving support actions their due, it is a thread about the mechanical implications of the currently broken system in place which makes the tactics of support play in direct conflict with the earnings of support play, when in fact tactics and earnings should be symbiotic rather than zero sum. 0.02 ISK Cross
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 39	Posted - 2013.03.22 02:06:00 - [194] - Quote No problemo, Cross. I'm especially invested in this thread as I have hauled off and made myself a Logistics player and the proper function and scaling of that classes gear and WP gain has and will directly effect me. I don't quite get why people read this thread and think it is about buffing WP gain for Logi/Vehicle support? The complaint intended by the OP addresses improper scaling of gear (essentially meta level) for the Logistics class. I imagine such a scenario to see if scaling is working: Take two LogiBros. One is using all MLT gear and the other is using all PRO gear. Now, lets just say that this is the same guy playing both characters so individual player skill is a non factor. If these two guys did EXACTLY the same thing during a round, the very best that the PRO guy could hope for would be to make exactly the same WP as the MLT guy. In most cases, though, he would actually make less WP. I know what you are thinking: "if they are doing the exact same thing, how could one guy make less WP." Sounds like a logical paradox. Yet it is true. Lets say each guy gets 4 kills and 4 assists. Total WP for kills is 300 (4x50 + 4x25). Both revive 8 individual players (no reviving the same guy twice). That is 480 (8x60). Puts us at 780. Both perform triage on those 8 revived players. Lets say the MLT guy gets 25 per cycle and heals each revived teammate for 4 cycles (seems about right on your average Assault who revives at 30% of armor [MLT nano injector]). He is, essentially, healing 17.5% HP per cycle. He gets 800 if there is no triage cap. The PRO guy, though, only gets in ONE cycle and that is IF his PRO Armor Repair Tool only heals 17.5% HP per cycle (it actually does more). SO, the PRO guy only gets 200 WP for healing the remainder after revival (PRO nano injectors revive at 80% of Armor). In that imagined scenario, our MLT guy ends up with a mad WP score of 1580 and the PRO guy ends up with 980. Now, in our current build, there is a cap on triage. You can only gain so much in a given time period. That will slide the MLT triage score down significantly as he won't be able to time all 8 full revivals perfectly with the timers. There is nothing saying that our PRO guy won't revive and heal 4 times as many teammates, but even if he does he is still subject to the triage timers and the absolute best he can hope for is the constantly hit the timers as much as the MLT guy. He will, therefore, accrue only as many WPs as the MLT guy. NEVER more. It is mathematically impossible once both guys hit the timers repeatedly throughout the match for one to gain above the other. Even if the PRO guy heals 10 times as many comrades, he will be doing so only for the satisfaction, as he will end up at the same amount of WP as the MLT guy assuming both hit the cap. Even reviving many more teammates will only net him a small advantage because there is a timed cap on revives, too. Insult to injury, his PRO Armor Repair Tool also heals faster and can heal two guys at once (most models) and he is just that much more likely to hit the cap. SO, the PRO guy risks mad ISK to use his PRO gear (without even considering the SP he's spent) and the very BEST he can hope for is to break even with a MLT guy fresh off the War Barge. Broke...as...a...joke. My suggestion of amending revives based on the nano injector used would help (MLT/STD 30WP, ADV 50WP and PRO 80WP). Another suggestion was to make triage returns diminish rather than cap. Cross suggested that they switch WP gain from a time based cycle to amount of HP healed, which would work fantastically. The PRO Armor Reppers would cycle faster and, therefore, heal more HP in less time and yield more WP. My final suggestion was raise the cap time but lower the WP gain per cycle (I think in tandem with my other solution and Cross's solution, that would solve basically all the scaling problems). Do 10WP per cycles and either ditch the cap or raise it. The result would be PRO Logis getting 1500-2000WP a round (the numbers might have to be tinkered) while a MLT Logi might only get 500-800WP. Basically, if you look at Assaults, that would be pretty consistent with their gear scaling as it stands. Buff Heavy PRO gear. Give DS pilots and LAV drivers a crapload of love. BAM...balanced AND properly scaled. CCP: "Thank you Cross." Cross: "Oh don't worry about sending me a paycheck, CCP."
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 23	Posted - 2013.03.22 09:04:00 - [195] - Quote Maybe I misunderstand this whole topic but I will try anyway. I have been a logi for almost a year now and I don't think the system is broken. As far as I know no other anything gives more points for higher meta gear. I also believe that running in better gear gives you the ability to do more for WPs. If I revive someone with a high tier NI they have more HP and therefore I don't have to worry as much about them being shot down as soon as they get up, I don't get to repair them for WPs as much but they are able to assist me while I will engage targets or move to another team member that needs help. I can do more faster with better gear and I admit that in certain situations lower gear will reward more points but the potential to earn more points comes from better equipment. Again, I have been a logi for 99% of the time the game has been running. I was in the first closed beta they released. I on average come in the top five on the leader board for both sides an there has been plenty of times I have made over 1k WP and only have three kills and three deaths. I once came in second with 3 kills and 3 deaths with the top guy having 41/1 he made 2553 and I had 1313 WPs (I took a picture or just ask pink FLUFF). It is not that I think that we as logi get points faster or easier because I do my jobs well and the team and my squad benefit but I also don't think we need more. A good logi who knows their job and does it well doesn't need anymore points.
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 43	Posted - 2013.03.22 22:29:00 - [196] - Quote If you've been running Logi that long, then you'll have noticed how PRO Assault guys, PRO Scout snipers and shottys, ADV HAV drivers, et al... are getting 2k WP per match or more assuming they don't suck. Even the very best Logi guys aren't getting that kind of score because it is impossible. The triage timer and maximum revival timer literally make it impossible (talking Ambush here as a rubric). I went 18/3 about a week ago and spent most of the match fervently reviving teammates. I didn't Rep much, but still hit the timer a couple times in 8 or 9 minutes. I had 1600 WP at the end. Take the 900WP off for kills. Even if I didn't get a single assist, I bet I revived 15 people but only got credit on...8 or 10 because I did too many revives in a short amount of time. I was using MLT Logi gear. The caps would have been even worse if I had been using PRO stuff. I would have hit them faster and rev'ed and rep'ed that many more blue dots for NO WP gain. If a MLT Assault guy gets 500 WP per match and a STD gets 800 WP per match and a ADV (The dreaded Gek) gets 1k to 1.5k per match and a PRO guy gets 1.5k to 2k per match (average-ish)...then that is how good scaling works. Yes, the guy has better skills and probably has better "gun-game" but those are still factors considered in good scaling. It isn't hard to believe that a decent MLT Logi can rack up 900 or 1k WP in a round. A fella in my Corp is one of the best LogiBros I've ever seen. He is everywhere with that spike and his repper....and he gets 1200 or 1300 on a good round. He doesn't use MLT. He uses ADV nano injectors and ADV reppers and a STD Logi type-1 suit. You might say that is an example of scaling, but that isn't the case. He has often said that he would probably make more WP using MLT for all the reasons that Cross made this very thread. If he used PRO, he'd go broke because he'd still only get 1200 or less WP a round. He's tried. You seem to understand this thread in part and misunderstand it in part. It is complicated and nobody knows exactly how the mysterious triage cap timers work, making it even more complicated. You are 100% right that no other gear scales in its awarding WP and that is a very valid point. A kill is a kill is a kill. They do make killing easier, though. A major point of this thread is that using a PRO AR or Shotty does not make it HARDER to gain WP. Ever. Using a PRO needle literally punishes the Logi who does it. The only way it doesn't is in its tactical advantage. I will not flog that dead horse any longer...please re-read post #189. I succinctly make the separation between tactical rewards and game mechanic rewards. Everyone needs WPs equally. They are NOT ONLY FOR KILLS and are the only means with which a Dust player can advance their character. Everyone needs ISK and SP. Everyone. Why should some classes have a WP gaining advantage at the PRO gear level over others? The ultimate fact is that Logis don't scale for ****. Neither Cross, nor myself are asking for more WP, per se. Yes on the PRO end and definitely NO on the MLT end. In fact, both our suggestions would make MLT Logi more in line with MLT variants of other classes as far as WP are concerned. It is extraordinarily stupid for me to need to get 15+ kills with my LOGISTICS guy to be competitive with other players that have 3million SP. Is it possible for me to go 2/6 and still get 1200WP...yes. If the stars line up and just the right revive/triage ratio presents itself. An Assault guy that gets 20 kills and 8 assists ALWAYS gets 1200WP. If I revive 8 guys and heal for 20 cycles...I am not guaranteed to get any certain amount because of game mechanics and goofy Logi gear.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 23	Posted - 2013.03.23 08:33:00 - [197] - Quote Thanks for not being a douche in your reply. You are correct in that the situation is complicated an all sides as far how points are rewarded and caps applied. My only response to the argument that assault classes make more points is that we are playing a war game not a hospital game, I am not trying to be a smart a$$, and warriors should get a little more for doing a good job. The game is only three months into open so we will see changes to lists of stuff and Cross is not wrong and I would love to make more SP but we need to keep the discussion open because the more ideas that come from the players the better. I run shield transporters and armor reping LAVs that give me no points or very few if I am lucky. I would love to see skm SP in that area. Lastly Cross' suggested real time WP for amount repaired over cycles completed, I think this would be the best solution for logi mercs and WP per cycle on vehicles to help out the vehicle reps and transfers. Posting from my phone so please excuse my english skills, I am working on lvl 4.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 841	Posted - 2013.03.23 19:04:00 - [198] - Quote @The Robot Devil thanks for posting to the thread and adding to the discussion I believe Thrillhouse covered the lions share of this but I want to take the time to define a few things in the hopes that my stance and intent will become more clear. Tactical Benefits - Qualities or effects of a fitting/gear that contribute to the efficiency of a Merc preforming their role on the battlefield. WP Benefits - The system by which WPs are (when properly balanced) earned for taking tactical actions with greater efficiency leading to greater potential rewards. Note: WP benefits are key to the development of character SP & ISK. As such they must maintain parity across all battlefield roles or there is (in literal terms) an imbalance within the games mechanics. Buffing vs Scaling - A request to buff WP awards is in essence a claim that the average potential WPs earned by a given class/role on the battlefield lags behind other possible roles. My request for better scalingdoes not assume that the average WP earnings are inadequate. Rather that their distribution across meta/SP investment levels improperly favors the use of Militia gear over Prototype gear by by lowering the potential WP earnings as the quality of gear increases. Raw WP vs Potential WP - On first inspection WP awards for Revives and Kills are functionally identical as they pertain to earning WP, both granting a Raw WP award for each time you complete an action, one success equating to one award earned. When we examine earnings Potential however a very different story emerges. As a weapon is upgraded it's efficiency increases providing more dps, ammo, range etc thus raising the potential rate at which kills can be made, and by extension increasing the potential earnings for the user (this is proper WP scaling, a greater player investment of SP and ISK results in the possibility of greater SP and ISK earned). As an Injector is upgraded it's efficiency also increases but not in any way that speeds up it's use thus providing no increase in potential earnings. Further (as a direct inverse to the scaling of a weapon) the more effective an Injector is under the current system the less often it's use is called for thus lowing the potential earnings from it's use. (even without touching on the capping of WP earnings) [Note: This same inverse in potential WP earnings applies to the Repair Tool as well, for the sake of brevity I'm omitting a repost of my analysts on that] As a result the current system properly rewards 'slayer' actions with greater potential earnings as the efficiency of their role increases but improperly punishes 'support' actions with lower potential earnings as the efficiency of their role increases. Wrap up A fundamental aspect of creating a high quality game is having a responsive/effective UI. The UI most not only be responsive in terms of input from the player but also in terms of displayed output to the player, anything less results in frustration, decreased enjoyment of the games qualities and ultimately a lower average size/activity level for the player base. I have already spoken with so many players who are confused and frustrated by the current WP awards system that I've lost count. Most of the players I've spoken with think that what their experiencing is the result of a bug due to the beta state of the game and become even more agitated/frustrated when it's explained to them that the current system is working as intended. A properly polished game mechanic should not engender confusion and frustration within players who try to use it. Another fundamental aspect of creating a high quality game is balance in the case of Dust this balance is twofold, risk vs reward and comparative rate of progression. If a given action, class, piece of gear, et al is mechanically inferior to the alternatives offered then one of two things happens: A) Players recognize this and the inferior element languishes unused decreasing game diversity and in a sense wasting the development resources spent on an unused feature. B) Players don't recognize this and play less/quit the game due to the frustrations endemic to operating under the weight of unfair burdens. The current war point mechanics applied to the 'medic' equipment items falls short on both of the above counts, it is neither balanced nor does is provided clear/proper UI feedback. In closing I'd like to say that I do completely agree with you that the issue should stay open to ideas and discussion. Indeed I feel it must remain an active topic at least until CCP addresses the problematic elements created by the current system. Cheers, Cross ps ~ In case it matters I didn't post this thread due to struggling as a Logi, it's easy enough to "game the system" when you understand the mechanics and even without relying on that I've been able to place in the top 4-5 in the match pretty consistently. As it stands the current system actually benefits me because it allows me to run cheap/free fits all the time while earning more than if I used high meta gear, and it reduces my competition for those Logi points as I know (more or less) when to stop repping/reviving to avoid spending time on actions which earn me zero SP or ISK. If I were motivated by self interest I wouldn't have posted this thread to begin with, but I'd feel like a real kitten if I ignored the hardships inflicted on other players just so I could score a few WP easier. [Note: My "ps" is NOT meant to be calling anyone out or as a backhanded insult, it is simply a statement of my own reasoning and motivation provided because there's been some recurring confusion on the subject throughout this thread.]
S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 105	Posted - 2013.03.23 20:27:00 - [199] - Quote I've beaten this horse in a lot of other threads but I still think scaling WP on the basis of performance, not equipment, is a good idea for all types of players. Lots of things in this post suggest how to do it but I'll toss in the one's I advocate one more time. For doing damage -- get WP on the basis of damage done provided the target doesn't fully repair before it dies. Doing that equipment that allows you to do damage faster gets you more points. Killing bigger, harder to kill things gets you more points. For fixing things -- get WP for the amount of HP you repair. If you have gear that reps more or cycles faster you get more points. If your run your tail off and are in the right place at the right time you get more points. To prevent abuse, loose war points if you do damage to your own vehicle or equipment or yourself. For reviving players -- get a fixed amount, but get a bonus for the player having more armour and shields when they revive. Better gear lets you get more points. For capturing facilities like turrets, supply depots and CRUs -- give the capturing squad or squads (if several participate in the hack) a small bonus for all the kills, resupplies, and spawns the facility does until it changes hands again. For capturing null cannons -- give the squad or squads a bonus on the basis of the cannon's contribution to damage to the enemy war barge. And while it's not exactly on topic -- give WP for things like destroying drop uplinks and nanohives. Reducing the enemy's effectiveness should be rewarded. I believe that with negative WP for doing yourself or your equipment damage all of these options have reasonable limits on people abusing them. Though we'd have to figure out how to keep six inch falls from wiping out half your shields or lavs from self self destructing when jumping off two foot hills at 10 MPH.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 24	Posted - 2013.03.25 07:24:00 - [200] - Quote Cross you are starting to pull me over to your side. I have been thinking about this lots more and I have been watching my play style and suit fits and I have realized that as I move up the logi equipment ladder I have been doing a lot more killing and less healing. I am not sure if it is because I am better shot, running with other logi in the squad or something else I am not aware of but you are getting more correct every battle. At the beginning of the last reset I would have a negative KDR at the end of every battle with few exceptions but I would always be at the top of the board and now that I have more skills in "core" areas I find myself with a positive KDR. I give partial credit to my ELM and our love of tears. I have noticed that I don't drop many SPs in logi equipment compared to other areas because I like my equipment. I do run advanced stuff because I like it better than MTL or standard but you are correct that I have no good reason fro proto gear, except for a two beam tool. You have almost hooked me in with you. Lastly, what is your opinion on vehicle repair and shield transportation? I have a lot of fun helping out team vehicles but get NO bonuses or payment. My reping and trans LAV cost about 100k and when I go zero and three and loose one or two LAVs and dropsuit it hurts my wallet. Almost anything would be a better system them that.

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 843	Posted - 2013.03.25 23:35:00 - [201] - Quote New Equipment DevBlog is out Once I get beyond all the awesome that is new content being added to the game my interest is drawn to the equipment use graph the blog contains. The use trends in this graphic show us that the only piece of non Meta 1 equipment (Meta 1 = Militia/Standard) which sees much use is the Advanced Nanite Injectors, and in this single case its use levels are still below all Meta 1 equipment except Drop Uplinks. Meta 1 Hives, Injectors, Reppers, and Militia gear all rank well above the Advanced Injectors level of use, with even Meta 1 Remote Explosives seeing slightly greater use than the Advanced Injector. Use of Proto gear is hard to assess as it is all so low volume as to be nearly a flat line across the bottom of the graph. In part this is attributable no doubt to the SP required to fit such gear, but that is at least in part offset by those players who 'pre-buy' top level fittings for use later (I myself have ~400 fully proto Logi fits already purchased and ready for use). Since these numbers are based on market purchases such pre-planning can create a false sense of use for Proto Equipment. When you look at the graph the disparity is striking, but for those following this thread not unexpected (tho I will admit I'm surprised by how much more often the Standard gear is used vs the Militia gear, and have to wonder how much those numbers would shift if the graph were based on fits deployed rather than market items purchased, as much Militia gear use is BPO and those are only one time purchases). I'd love to have graphs for weapon use and vehicle use as well to provide better context for this information, there are after all certainly a myriad of factors in play (for example the popularity of Nanohives is no doubt fueled by the thirsty magazines of single equipment slot assault suits whos merc users can directly benefit from their own gear, as opposed to an Injector or Repper that must be applied to an exterior target), but lacking that I will forge head. While the contents of this blog do not independently confirm what this thread has been discussing they certainly do nothing to disprove it and I think the true implications are not so much in the ranking of use as the margin. It should surprise no one that standard nanohives have a high use volume, or that the oft ignored (and admittedly hard to fit) drop uplink has a relatively low volume, however it still seems telling more than three quarters of all equipment consumption is within the Meta 1 range (this is an approximation as the graph is not numbered so I'm having to "eyeball" it). To highlight what I'm saying about margins consider how often you see "GEK" or "Duvolle" in the kill feeds during your matches, do you see "Exile/Militia" 4-5 times as often as you see GEK and Duvolle combined? The comparison is anecdotal to be sure but it is nonetheless interesting to compare use rates of properly WP scaled gear with the factor of magnitude spread shown in the equipment line. I'm cautiously optimistic that the internal analysis CCP has done on these numbers will lead to a more expiedent address regarding the subjects in this thread. It will be a good day when the potential rewards for using equipment properly scales throughout the meta levels to reflect the tactical value of it's use. I'd love to hear everyones feedback on how they see this DevBlog relating to our thread. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 843	Posted - 2013.03.26 00:11:00 - [202] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Cross you are starting to pull me over to your side. I have been thinking about this lots more and I have been watching my play style and suit fits and I have realized that as I move up the logi equipment ladder I have been doing a lot more killing and less healing. I am not sure if it is because I am better shot, running with other logi in the squad or something else I am not aware of but you are getting more correct every battle. At the beginning of the last reset I would have a negative KDR at the end of every battle with few exceptions but I would always be at the top of the board and now that I have more skills in "core" areas I find myself with a positive KDR. I give partial credit to my ELM and our love of tears. I have noticed that I don't drop many SPs in logi equipment compared to other areas because I like my equipment. I do run advanced stuff because I like it better than MTL or standard but you are correct that I have no good reason fro proto gear, except for a two beam tool. You have almost hooked me in with you. Lastly, what is your opinion on vehicle repair and shield transportation? I have a lot of fun helping out team vehicles but get NO bonuses or payment. My reping and trans LAV cost about 100k and when I go zero and three and loose one or two LAVs and dropsuit it hurts my wallet. Almost anything would be a better system them that. Thanks for responding again I'm glad what we're saying is making sense for you, I'm always interested to hear a new point of view and have the ideas I've put forth tested by a well reasoned counter point. I've had similar expriences to what you describe as my point totals rise, I spend fewer and fewer of my points on Logi related skills and more on 'Slayer' related skills. Obviously a Logi on the field who can dish out dps in support of the squad is more of an asset than one who can't provide any fire support but when it's more effective for me to take a high cost skills like mass driver proficiency to level 3 than it is to take something fundamental like nanocircuitry or repair tool operation up to level 3-4 it starts to really seem off. I provide Logi support for my permanent squad and it's rather telling that not one of them objects to my skill plan of getting everything on my fit Proto before leveling up my Logi/Medic/Support skills or equipment any farther (and even then planing to only run it for Corp battles and the like). I'd like to comment on the Proto Repair Tools since you mention them, the two beams most certainly do provide a tactical benefit worth having, leaving the decreased potential WP gains from dropsuits aside the Proto line highlights some of the weaknesses in the current support awards system. There are vehicle specific proto repair tools, which by description are intended to sacrifice dropsuit repair in favor of maintaining the vehicular assets your team fields. Now even with the game changer that a proper tank can be I've yet to meet a Logi that opts to run the vehicle focused repair tool (and some of the Logis I've spoke when are frequent gunners they have extra incentive to run vehicle tools). Now while I assume there must be a few Logi out there who do use the vehicle reppers they face being short changed even more than other Logi who run Proto, because the vehicle repairs only earn them guardian awards and at the reduced rate of 25 WP. Meaning that a Logi/Gunner who makes the right tactical call and jumps out of the tank to rep it is not only getting zero WP for the armor repaired but is losing 10 WP per kill made by the HAV, or 12 WP with active squad order (as compared with sitting in a gunner seat). But here's the real irony, due to the way cycles work if a Logi who wants to focus on infantry repairs desires to get the highest WP potential from a Proto tool using the vehicle repair tool will be the best option because it's lower HP repped per cycle improve potential earnings while still giving the tactical edge of an extra repair stream. Lastly, on vehicle repair and shield transportation. Short answer, they deserve war points. A single kill is worth 50 WP, while that same kill in a fully manned HAV is worth minimum 130 WP (and can climb much higher if there are kill assists or a squad order involved). A single infantry rep cycle is worth 25 WP and goes to zero when preformed by a vehicle fully manned or no. That is a glaring disparity in reward when the risk (in both SP and ISK) for running such support vehicles is comparable to their more aggressive cousins. This short shrift for support vehicles goes well beyond repair (of shields or armor) however, Dropship operators gain precious few WP and those they do gain aren't for fulfilling the tactical role that their very name implies. LAVs and HAVs can (and not small expense) fit mobile CRUs however despite the tactical asset and fittings burden these modules provide they hold a WP earnings potential of zero. The fundamental disparity between slay and support present among infantry roles is taken to extremes within the realm of vehicles, when a squad running a slayer HAV can earn 5 precision strikes within one match (that's a minimum of 12,500 war points for those keeping score) and a vehicle support squad can only look forward to war points gained from the occasional assist or kill of opportunity while making zero from effectively preforming their primary tactical role.... well that's clearly not a case of balanced rewards parity. Cheers, Cross
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 237	Posted - 2013.03.26 02:10:00 - [203] - Quote I just don't see the disparity of warpoints for Logi bros. In a good game I have no trouble whatsoever landing a high spot on the leader board. As for remote reps vehicle mods; ***** broken and needs huge overhaul.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 843	Posted - 2013.03.26 03:20:00 - [204] - Quote ugg reset wrote: I just don't see the disparity of warpoints for Logi bros. In a good game I have no trouble whatsoever landing a high spot on the leader board. As for remote reps vehicle mods; ***** broken and needs huge overhaul. Reading the whole thread would help, the newly updated OP especially (or the recent posts by Thrillhouse) touch on this in some depth. But to reiterate again here the question is about scaling as it relates to Meta level of gear not whether or not a Logi can earn decent WPs in general (that was an issue under CODEX after the LAV farmers got the repper nerfed via hotfix but it's not the point of this thread). It's also (as expressed in post #2 and most recently reiterated in post #193) has nothing to do with the leaderboards or how well I/other Logi contributing to this thread do on average within a match. You can check out my "ps" in post #198 (also quoted in post #2) for more information regarding my personal status in this if you consider that relevant. In short for equipment the disparity is within the equipment line itself not between Logis and other classes per se, indeed proper in depth balance assessments between classes are hard to attain while the internal aspects of certain equipment awards remain skewed, it's just as possible that Logis are over preforming the curve as under-performing with regards to role parity, I haven't looked into that for the reasons listed above, nor is it the subject of this thread. The vehicle situation, while it suffers from the same type of disparity is far more extreme and certainly does show a clear imbalance in earnings between battlefield roles. I've focused less on that side of things because I have less direct experience with vehicles than I do as a ground ponder, so where not specified it's generally safe to assume I'm talking about infantry (or that I've made a type o, which is sadly all to common ). Cheers, Cross
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 44	Posted - 2013.03.26 04:38:00 - [205] - Quote ugg reset wrote: I just don't see the disparity of warpoints for Logi bros. In a good game I have no trouble whatsoever landing a high spot on the leader board. As for remote reps vehicle mods; ***** broken and needs huge overhaul. Cross already addressed this but I'll take a whack as well before hitting my main point... It cannot be iterated enough that this thread is most certainly NOT about Logistics players not getting enough WPs. It is not about LogiBros getting too few WP. Not. This thread is, and has been since day one, about the disparity of WPs gained by Prototype LogiBros versus Militia or Standard LogiBros. It addresses the lack of appropriate scaling. Scaling, in this case, meaning that a MLT piece of equipment should offer fewer benefits than a STD...a STD less than an ADV and an ADV less than a PRO. Currently, these items DO scale correctly as far as tactical rewards are concerned (Working As Intended). They DO NOT scale correctly as far as game mechanical rewards are concerned. Using a PRO injector or PRO armor repair tool will, at the very most, net you the same exact amount of WP as a MLT/STD variant. Furthermore, while the maximum potential WP is the same, the reality is that using PRO gear makes it HARDER to hit the maximum potential WPs. Not scaling properly... Okay...I went further in detail than I intended. My main reason for posting here today is to address vehicle repairing. My answer to that boondoggle is that armor repairing a vehicle should yield WPs exactly like triage does...only fewer per cycle. Since you are capable of healing quite a deal of damaged armor on a vehicle or installation, it would be broken to receive even close to the same WP for healing them. Everyone would follow tanks around like lost puppies for the opportunity to crank their WP. As far as shield transportation and remote repair modules on vehicles: again, yes those tasks should absolutely grant WP. How much is a matter of balancing the role. My essential position is that ALL roles should receive a fair and balanced amount of WPs. No role left behind. Why can a tanker earn 2500WP for killing plus assists but a dropship pilot earns 200WP a match if he's lucky for meager assists from his gunners (who only have a 180 degree field of fire each)? Why can a PRO Assault guy go 28/1 with 24 assists and get 2000WP but a PRO Logistics guy revives 28 guys and performs triage 24 times and you can't even truly predict his WP gain because of artificial caps AND the worst part is that he would have risked less and gained just as much WP if he used MLT? All good questions with no good answers.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 30	Posted - 2013.03.26 09:50:00 - [206] - Quote Complex questions with even more complex answers. The more I think about it the more difficult it becomes. The problem is farming. If logi SP scaled with weapon tiers then there would be even more logi mercs using proto gear. They would squad up and let each other rep them while they took damage on purpose for the rep points and then lay down for the revive causing a farming loop. I believe that the only true fix is passive SP and an ISK reward system that pays you to do your job in ISK and WP but not SP. This would pay me for my actions and take the pressure of the "SP grind" away. When I started DUST I was hoping to see a passive SP system because this game shouldn't be about grinding it only. The grind should be for ISK and experience, but I am optimistic that as the game matures the SP will become less of a flash point. I am sold on the point that the SP progression through the equipment tiers are out of sync with the weapons progression. Some aspects more so than others but the problem is the grind not so much the system. The view of SP seems to take lead over anything else in the game. I was hoping for a game with soul and passion that gave people a reason to go to war over just the next weapon they can shoot. I am not saying this is a bad quality but it should not be the only reason to fight; in fact it should be the last. I am lvl 5 laser rifle and I couldn't wait to melt some mercs face in two seconds but when a guy I repaired during one battle remembered me a week later and wanted to squad up because of my reputation it was way more satisfying than that viziam will ever be.
S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 113	Posted - 2013.03.26 17:47:00 - [207] - Quote The Robot Devil suggested the value he got from the recognition meant more to him than the skill points. That got me to thinking that there might be some way to penalize boosting that didn't directly impact skill points. Rather that boosters were damaged in some other important aspect of the game. The example that is already in the mechanics is that for one player to revive another over and over the player being revived has to rack up a lot of deaths. It's not an absolute prohibition, people could always do it on throw away alts, but it is a downside. I've suggested that self-damage to players and friendly equipment should result in a WP decrease to make boosting of that kind less desirable. Even if the problems of that could be worked out it doesn't address the issue of people deliberately running out into fire to let their buddies rack up repair points. Of course those folks would contribute less to winning the game than more objective based players but by definition they probably don't care. It's been a long thread and I've only gone through it once so I could easily have missed responses that touched on this but... If we Subtracted skill points for self / friendly damage Had the existing cost of death to restrain revive boosting Do we care if people sit around in a circle and boost by repairing damage done by enemies? We already have people who sit in corners and harvest time based WP. We already have people who sit on hill and don't contribute to objectives. We already have people who get bored and blast around in LAVs and at most try to run a few folks over. So is the bit of boosting that repairing as outlined above represents make much difference beyond aggravating some folks? When the game moves on to more serious consequences for corporate games will corps self-police the freeloaders making boosting meaningless except in pub games? OK -- a possible solution -- How about skill specific skill points? SP from logistics activities only build up SP that can be used to advance related SP skills. It's like practice with a skill class makes you better in it but doesn't help you with unrelated skills. It might even be limited to particular SP books and the skills they unlock. It could work for other areas as well. So people who sit around repairing things over and over can get better at repairing things. So what? The down side -- yet another complexity. TL:DR Make damaging yourself or friendly people reduce WP. Let dying be the penalty for revive boosting Ignore the other kinds of boosting -- when we move on to mostly corporate battles it won't mean as much. Implement skill points only applying to related skills -- with adjusted SP rewards to make up for the more limited value of the new kind of SP.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 847	Posted - 2013.03.27 00:58:00 - [208] - Quote The first question I think we need to ask with regards to "farming" is what is the definition of farming? Sitting in total safety while gathering SP/ISK seems to be a clear cut case of farming, but it's also a "working as intended" game mechanic within this build due to CCP assigning the largest factors in both SP and ISK gain to time spent in match. Beyond that it becomes even more gray, if three assault guys throw down nanohives at a forward position to maintain ammo (using good tactical teamwork) does it become "farming" if they use each others hives thus granting points to their squad mates? What if they run through the line of hives thus giving out WP to their squad mates faster than the cooldown timer would allow if they stood in a single hive, is that farming? What if 3 out of 4 squad members intentionally damage (with no intent to kill) a target thus gaining the squad an extra 75 WP for that single kill (more with squad order) is that farming? Is that more or less farming than taking a couple shot to armor knowing the Logi in your squad will repair you for 25-50 WP? What about squads who each deploy an uplink at the start of a match and spawn on each others uplinks earning the squad 25-30 WP per death their squad suffers, is that farming? How about a Merc with a Laser who sweeps a group of red dots, or a Mass Driver who pops a shot or two into a group of reds. They both gain many assist points from these actions are they farming? Or a Logi repping a Heavy as he lays down fire, the heavy staying in the open longer than he otherwise would because he knows he has reps, are these players farming points, playing tactically, both? A Merc reaches a hacked objective when it's roughly half way to flipping, the Merc can spend the time counter hacking, or can post up and defend the objective until it flips and then re-hack it. The second choice exposes our Merc to less risk because he's exposing his back while hacking for a lower amount of time but is letting the objective flip when you could have stopped it farming? To return to the definitio of farming, I think it is "being excessively rewarded for non-tactical/non-contributing actions". The problem with my definition in the current build of the game is that it is not supported by the game mechanics, there are far too many ways that less effective/tactical team play are rewarded over and above teamwork and tactical play. It seems to be highly problematic attempting to prevent/solve farming issues (which are essentially exploit of the WP awards system) until the system itself is balanced and working properly. [continued below... I failed at keep this brief ]
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 847	Posted - 2013.03.27 00:58:00 - [209] - Quote On a separate point, the type of farming which could be done with revives (or to a lessor extent repairs) can be done from the other side with kills as well but we don't see a WP gains timer/cap on kills. And for that matter even under the current system 'farming' Rep/Revive points is actually quite simple. Create a fit with stacked armor plates, self damage in some way (there are many easy ways outside of combat) When armor is around 10% allow shields to fully regen and tag a red dot with some fire (easy to do from range with little risk, or even in QCQ via use of a LAV). Your timer is now "live" and your buddy can rep you for the full amount of your armor damage, furthermore the current cap does little to slow this down because so much of the time in this almost risk free method takes place while the cap timer cools down. If one of you dies? Well there are revive points to me had (and you're in free suits anyway). Improving internal scaling of Logi gear actually reduces the value of farming Logi points when compared to the present system. Under the current system the highest points are framed using Militia Logi gear allowing the farmers to "boost" risk free because they can attain max gains while using 100% BPO fits. Under the proposed change MIL gear would give more than the current average while PRO would give more thus reducing the points that can be farmed via free fits. And while it's true that, under the new system, PRO gear could yeild higher earnings than present, use of that gear requires a much higher 'buy in' of both ISK and SP to run that gear at all. Right now the buy in to farm is zero SP and a one time investment of AUR (or even zero AUR with certain starting roles selected). Under the new system it would take millions of both SP and ISK to run the gear required, which if nothing else would reduce farming by making it take months before someone could start doing it, and even then the rewards don't show up for a longer time as well because they'll need to farm up WP equal to what they spent just to "break even". Those who want to farm wouldn't really do it with Logi gear once internal scaling is fixed, they'll just afk in the MCC. A side note regarding farming outside of pub matches, it is already meaningless as those matches award no direct SP or ISK gains whatsoever. They are currently based exclusively on the contract system so unless/until CCP changes the mechanics there farming is exclusively a pub match phenomenon. I realize that I'm raising more questions than I'm answering here, but I suppose my point is with all the mitigating factors in play it maybe better to implement changes to the equipment line and test the results rather than waiting to find a theoretically perfect implementation (which is not to say we should cease this conversation or seeking for the best possible solution ^.^) Summation Most of the farming will be minor in impact (farmers take the easy road and the easiest form of farming is sitting passively in the MCC) The proposed changes will discourage farming when compared with the present system. (Due to enhanced SP and ISK costs and well as forcing SP investment into support skills rather than slayer skills or other utility skills) Farming as an issue applies only to pub matches, while war point earnings maintain relevance in all battles due to orbital support. Any attempts to address the possible issue/implications of farming need an established definition that applies game wide so as to maintain proper context and balance parity. I'm interested in seeing what others have to say, particularly with regards to an acceptable definition for "farming" before I venture too deeply into the pool of possible solutions. (The Robot Devil & S Park Finner you both bring up interesting points which I want to touch on but I'll save my remarks for a later time). Cheers, Cross
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 45	Posted - 2013.03.27 05:18:00 - [210] - Quote Don't know how I feel about damage/death taking away WP. How would that work with newbies? You go 0/12 and get 75WP from assists but negative 600 from deaths??? Effectively making newbie WP/SP/ISK gain limited to in-game timer. That idea is not a winner, imo. I absolutely LOVE a SP system that gains you SP spendable only on related skills (or straight into those skills). I assume it would work sort of like this: You perform triage on someone and gain 'x' SP and 'y' WP. The SP gain is "Triage SP" and isn't actively spent, but rather just adds SP into your Remote Armor Repair skill? You shoot a guy with an AR and gain skill into AR Ops (or AR Proficiency if Ops is maxed) and Weaponry. You fly a DS and gain skill into Cal Dropships, Vehicle Maneuvering and Vehicle Control? That sort of thing? Then you gain WP like normal for Orbitals and SP/ISK from total WP as per usual that becomes "Universal SP" to be spent in any skill? Otherwise how would you gain into, say, Combat Engineering or Field Mechanics? I think the community would argue that a system like this is even more complicated than the current system already is and would reject such an idea. Better to balance WP across all classes and properly scale SP/ISK cost of skills and items first for each individual class and then across all classes. As far as farming goes...there is little and less stopping similar farming right now. I just played in 4 or 5 games with Corpmates on the other team. If we were at all inclined, we could easily just roll over for them or they for us. We could go off to the red line and take turns killing and reviving for WP gains until the timers all cap off for each person. The new system wouldn't change that...true. The intention of the new system isn't to address farming as a flaw...it is to address WP disparity in the Logistics class. Fixing farming in most of its current forms would pretty much require a completely new skills system. Adding death penalties punishes the nice and rewards the naughty. Why should I risk my neck to run out and revive a guy, facing almost certain death in the process, if I am going to be punished and not rewarded? Better to roll all Assault, all the time. Just keep my head down and go for kills. Such a system is inherently flawed towards snipers and tankers, too, who die much much less than run-of-the-mill Assaults, Logis and Heavies. It also helps PRO badasses who die much less often than newbies and lowbies (and PRO badasses hardly need help as it is). I have hardly even seen that many people AFK farming, much less intentionally dying for the sake of their comrades nano injectors. The whole death/damage punishment idea seems like a solution in search of a problem. "Farming," as Cross clearly points out, is pto broadly defined to attempt solutions to said problem. Does camping behind a constantly damaged Heavy comprise "farming?" The Logi is still healing...whether it seems unfair to reward that healing or not...and the Heavy is remaining combat effective...so is the Logi doing something wrong? So why does the Logi get punished for doing his job (denial of WP IS a PUNISHMENT)? Because Assaults and Tankers don't want to see a Logi get 3500 WP per match for a change? Fine...scale the Logistics properly and lower the WP per cycle but then get rid of the timers. THEN, if we see Logistics guys all getting too much WP still... CCP can always lower the WP income per cycle/HP healed/Revive. It isn't as though they can't change the numbers once they change the system. That is how balance is achieved, after all. The proposed changes in this thread WOULD result in lower WP scores for Militia Logistics fits and opportunistic Assaults/Scouts using nano injectors. Fact. It would also make it possible for an all Proto Logi who is damn good at his job to get 2500 WP...just like an all Proto Assault guy who is damn good at his job does currently. Balanced. Scaled. Fair. If farming is that great of a concern then apply one idea in this thread (I forgot who proposed it) and have diminishing returns for triage on the same target set on a timer. Just like now, the timers would be active until such and such criteria are met or the timer expires. Only, during the timer instead of getting no WP, you get less and less until you are getting only 1 WP per cycle. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, either. Why not have strata? You heal 'x' number of cycles ON ONE GUY in a timeframe and you get full WP (+25 cycle). You heal 'x' plus 'x' number of cycles and you get +10 WP per cycle. You heal 'x' plus 'x' plus 'x'' cycles, you get +5 WP per cycle. Then +2. Then +1. So you can just sit and heal your Heavy comrade into oblivion but your rewards will diminish until the timer resets. It shouldn't apply to healing two guys at once, again, because that punishes a PRO Arm Rep user versus a MLT user.



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