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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:12:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, here we have the weirdest slot progression in all of DUST 514. I tried once before, was washed away in a tidal wave of tears, but now we must once more unto the breach. We see that not only is there a discrepancy in total slots (I would understand it if there was a strict "this is traded for that", but there isn't really) so what I propose is that we define the trade-offs and normalize from there. Why does Gallente always have one lower than Minmatar? Logis need a buff so let's go with Minmatar slots. PG/CPU will certainly be normalized, for poor Calogi. I suspect it was being punished for old sins, that's the only rational reason I see for the capacity difference. Amarr Sidearm = Trade Equipment, Low Slot or both? Caldari Extra High Slot = Trade Equipment, Light weapon down grade to Sidearm, or both Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO I am sitting on a community proposal as well, that I will factor in with your direct forum feedback. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

xp3ll3d dust The Southern Legion 228	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:31:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO With the talk of "tiericide" & power cores, I thought that the plan was to remove slot numbers as progression. Looking at these numbers, it looks like this is a proposal for "right now" that will then be replaced with tiericide later. So just checking, the plan is: 1. Normalise the slot counts right now within the existing game. To give you a chance to check that the proto number of slots are balanced fine for each race. 2. Later on with tiericide, standardise all suits on the number of slots that were given to proto CPM1 Candidate > A richer Dust app ecosystem means more player engagement!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:37:00 - [3] - Quote xp3ll3d dust wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO With the talk of "tiericide" & power cores, I thought that the plan was to remove slot numbers as progression. Looking at these numbers, it looks like this is a proposal for "right now" that will then be replaced with tiericide later. So just checking, the plan is: 1. Normalise the slot counts right now within the existing game. To give you a chance to check that the proto number of slots are balanced fine for each race. 2. Later on with tiericide, standardise all suits on the number of slots that were given to proto At least, know what the smart answer is before making sweeping changes. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:39:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Amarr Sidearm = Trade Equipment, Low Slot or both? Equipment Slot first, then an other High/Low slot if the suit is behind on High/Low slots. CCP Rattati wrote: Caldari Extra High Slot = Trade Equipment, Light weapon down grade to Sidearm, or both Equipment Slot. (But don't you mean extra Low Slot?) CCP Rattati wrote: Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO Yes! CCP Rattati wrote: High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO Yes! I want that 4th equipment slot on the CalLog damnit!
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 457	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:43:00 - [5] - Quote Correct, caldari needs more resources..a lot more cpu.. it is shields, the most cpu/pg intensive module, we are still looking at calogi after it was smashed with nerf hammer over a year ago. If you are giving caldari 4 equipment, one is likely to be a dirty needle if stacking shields. Caldari needs it's 5 highs for shields as it's recharge rate is garbage and needs to tank as much as possible. I can't see where gallente have one less slot than minmitar in that graph, looks the same to me 3-5 and 4-4. 14 total. so if normalizing based on minmitar, amarr loses sidearm for equipment, caldari loses high for equipment.. seems boring in the grander scheme none of this matters as minmitar will still be only true logi worth using for bonuses, gallente will toss out some scans and amarr will throw down some links, but 90% of the logis will be minmitar.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:43:00 - [6] - Quote Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to it's CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:47:00 - [7] - Quote Give the Amarr logi another equipment slot there's really no need for another low besides brick tanking. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 457	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:48:00 - [8] - Quote even if caldari loses low slot instead of high for equipment, usually you have a cpu mod, now ehp will suffer unless cpu pg skyrockets.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:49:00 - [9] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to it's CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Agreed, so 3/3/4 for equipment, especially since I am also thinking of making the jack of all trades, basic mediums to have 2 eq. Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:51:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I tried once before, was washed away in a tidal wave of tears, but now we must once more unto the breach. Oh lord I still remember that. I hope this time it goes better, and little [S] box won't trigger people like it did last time. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 892	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:53:00 - [11] - Quote I personally would prefer to trade Amarr equipment for the sidearm. Give it the full 8 module slots. I love the idea of Caldari downgrading their light weapon to a sidearm as trade for a 9th slot. I suspect, however, that many would disagree. In which case, perhaps losing the 4th low would be preferable. Swapping an equipment slot for a 9th module slot seems like a poor trade to me.
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:57:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to it's CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Agreed, so 3/3/4 for equipment, especially since I am also thinking of making the jack of all trades, basic mediums to have 2 eq. Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. I personally don't see why it wouldn't work. Having the Cal Logi be the most survivable one, but have the worst offense, side arm being a last resort kind of thing. That's under the condition that it is indeed more survivable. "Breakin, PS3's and PS4's can't mate. They're incompatible. Unlike Apache's and Cappuccino machines." - *Cat wisdom*
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 892	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:03:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Agreed, so 3/3/4 for equipment, especially since I am also thinking of making the jack of all trades, basic mediums to have 2 eq. Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. All my yes! To all of it. 2 equipment basic frames has been suggested a lot (assuming they don't get removed, like I suggested in another thread). (disclaimer: I don't use Caldari logis)
The Eristic Art.of.Death 995	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:03:00 - [14] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. I was scrolling down to post exactly this. Two equip is awful and, in the case of those suits currently saddled with it, makes it more efficient to just carry two sets of hives or links rather than a more diverse array of support tools, as, well, two equip doesn't really [i]allow[/i for ]any diversity and certainly no synergy should one wish to take advantage of the Amarr/Cal bonuses. EDIT: That was quick! The asymmetry of a lone sidearm-only logi bothers me, and surprised it doesn't bug you, Ratman. I'd much rather drop the fourth low slot. It has never needed it and no good has come from it. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:05:00 - [15] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I personally would prefer to trade Amarr equipment for the sidearm. Give it the full 8 module slots. So 3 eq slots, 1 LW, 1SA, 8 mods. I love the idea of Caldari downgrading their light weapon to a sidearm as trade for a 9th slot. I suspect, however, that many would disagree. In which case, perhaps losing the 4th low would be preferable. Swapping an equipment slot for a 9th module slot seems like a poor trade to me. I strongly disagree. Logistic suits are primarily about carrying equipment. Giving up any equipment slot when your primary function is to carry equipment seems like an entirely poor and irrational choice to me. And giving up the Light Weapon slot for a Sidearm slot in order to have an extra High/Low slot on a Logistics Suit which primary Equipment require the least amount of time in-hands seems like an even worse choice to me.
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:08:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. If you are trolling you got me good.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 892	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:11:00 - [17] - Quote Haerr wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I personally would prefer to trade Amarr equipment for the sidearm. Give it the full 8 module slots. So 3 eq slots, 1 LW, 1SA, 8 mods. I love the idea of Caldari downgrading their light weapon to a sidearm as trade for a 9th slot. I suspect, however, that many would disagree. In which case, perhaps losing the 4th low would be preferable. Swapping an equipment slot for a 9th module slot seems like a poor trade to me. I strongly disagree. Logistic suits are primarily about carrying equipment. Giving up any equipment slot when your primary function is to carry equipment seems like an entirely poor and irrational choice to me. And giving up the Light Weapon slot for a Sidearm slot in order to have an extra High/Low slot on a Logistics Suit which primary Equipment require the least amount of time in-hands seems like an even worse choice to me. I guess I suspected correctly regarding the Caldari logi. About the Amarr though, the suit currently sacrifices an equipment slot and a module for a sidearm. I have read many opinions from Amarr logi players, stating that they are quite happy to swap an equipment for a sidearm. Maybe this was just because they didn't consider only having to trade a mod slot for a sidearm. I don't feel strongly either way to be honest. I stated what I prefer, but your alternative is also pretty good. To be clear, reasonable alternative: Caldari logi: 4 eq, 8 slots, 1 LW Amarr logi: 4 eq, 7 slots, 1 LW, 1 SA. Correct? Only question would be, would this make the Amarr logi OP compared to other logis?
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:14:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. Hmm, I mean, sure... so, Cal logi would have an extra module slot, standard equipment progression, and only a sidearm...? That would certainly differentiate it. Best defense, worst offense, same equipment potential. This might be a balance nightmare, but still, intriquing. Though I am not sure why it couldn't just have the standard logi slots numbers (so, same as gal and min)... It would be simpler, but perhaps also more boring ;) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 458	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:15:00 - [19] - Quote cal logi with a sidearm only would make it the worst logi by far.. the shield regen rate is too low, delay too high
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 892	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:17:00 - [20] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. Hmm, I mean, sure... so, Cal logi would have an extra module slot, standard equipment progression, and only a sidearm...? That would certainly differentiate it. Best defense, worst offense, same equipment potential. This might be a balance nightmare, but still, intriquing. Though I am not sure why it couldn't just have the standard logi slots numbers (so, same as gal and min)... It would be simpler, but perhaps also more boring ;) It could use the extra low for a Kincat, to run away.... I'm starting to see the flaws in this plan. + points for variety though.

Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:21:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to it's CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Agreed, so 3/3/4 for equipment, especially since I am also thinking of making the jack of all trades, basic mediums to have 2 eq. Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. I really like the idea of the basic medium being the suit in between the logi and assault by having 2 equipment. As for the Amarr Logi I'm really torn on it. It really is a pain sometimes not having 4 equipment slots, but at the same time the flexibility of being able to run a sidearm does help a good bit to defend yourself and those uplinks you've been placing. I would have to agree with Zaria though that the Amarr's total slots should be similar to the other suits. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Bishop Harcourt K-A-O-S theory 24	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:44:00 - [22] - Quote Quote: I really like the idea of the basic medium being the suit in between the logi and assault by having 2 equipment. As for the Amarr Logi I'm really torn on it. It really is a pain sometimes not having 4 equipment slots, but at the same time the flexibility of being able to run a sidearm does help a good bit to defend yourself and those uplinks you've been placing. I would have to agree with Zaria though that the Amarr's total slots should be similar to the other suits. I guess my only question is will the scouts lose the extra equipment slot if this goes through? It was given to them for the sole purpose of showing off the shiny new content way back when. Logibro, Director, KAOS THEORY's Official Minister of Science and Magic.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 892	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:59:00 - [23] - Quote Bishop Harcourt wrote: Quote: I really like the idea of the basic medium being the suit in between the logi and assault by having 2 equipment. As for the Amarr Logi I'm really torn on it. It really is a pain sometimes not having 4 equipment slots, but at the same time the flexibility of being able to run a sidearm does help a good bit to defend yourself and those uplinks you've been placing. I would have to agree with Zaria though that the Amarr's total slots should be similar to the other suits. I guess my only question is will the scouts lose the extra equipment slot if this goes through? It was given to them for the sole purpose of showing off the shiny new content way back when. It was given for the cloak, so no. Perhaps we could lose it on basic light suits, as they can't use cloaks, but do we really want to be nerfing stuff used by new players?
Shady Assassin Nyain San 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:01:00 - [24] - Quote I have been a Logistics player from the start, Rattati, I believe this would work... STD Logistics - (2 Equipment, 4 High/Low) Amarr Logistics - 1 High / 3 Low / 2 Equipment Caldari Logistics - 3 High / 1 Low / 2 Equipment Gallente Logistics - 1 High / 3 Low / 2 Equipment ADV Logistics - (3 Equipment, 6 High/Low) Amarr Logistics - 2 High / 4 Low / 3 Equipment Caldari Logistics - 4 High / 2 Low / 3 Equipment Gallente Logistics - 2 High / 4 Low / 3 Equipment PRO Logistics - (4 Equipment, 8 High/Low) Amarr Logistics - Should we 1) Remove Sidearm? or 2) Keep Equipment at 3 & Keep Sidearm? tricky. Rattati, gather some thoughts from the community. Amarr Logistics - (If Sidearm is REMOVED) 3 High / 5 Low / 4 Equipment Amarr Logistics - (If Sidearm stays) 3 High / 5 Low / 3 Equipment Caldari Logistics - Remove 4th Low Slot? It makes it unbalanced w/ Tier progression. & Give 1) Sidearm or 2) 4th Equipment Caldari Logistics - (If Sidearm is ADDED) 5 High / 3 Low / 3 Equipment "Stop using a turbo controller on your Assault HMG & "Toxin" SMG Shady!" -Jacob Firebolt from GAM
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:02:00 - [25] - Quote The only stiff resistance was with getting rid of the Amarr Logi's sidearm. That resistance is still here, you shouldn't' get rid of it. It still a bad idea, no matter how much time passes between proposals. For all the talk of getting rid amar logis giving up a slot, i have no idea why it must be a low slot or sidearm slot. If anything,Amarr Logis should give up a high slot for an fourth equipment slot. There is no use for an extra high slot on an armor based suit, even combat a oriented one. Get rid of the slot that has the least utility for one that has the most makes the most logical sense. Cal Logi, and Gallente adv logis should mimic the assaults interms of high and low slots. Its a moot point since they are getting tiericided anyway, but for the short term, it should work out. Cladari should not downgrade to sidearem. I have always been against any sidearm only logi, or any suit restritced to become a sidearm only suit, fitting capacity or otherwise. 1 sidearm for the weapon slot means getting unable to return fire at medium range, and being out dps short range. Cal logis dont have the ewar /speed to be stealthy and , or the HP of a heavy to get away from long range situations. Bad idea. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Shady Assassin Nyain San 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:04:00 - [26] - Quote 2nd Part Caldari Logistics - (If Sidearm is NOT ADDED) 5 High / 3 Low / 4 Equipment Gallente Logistics - 3 High / 5 Low / 4 Equipment (Basically keep it the same, It is balanced on tier progression. Why didn't I mention Minmatar Logistics? Because slots are BALANCED STD-PRO. "Stop using a turbo controller on your Assault HMG & "Toxin" SMG Shady!" -Jacob Firebolt from GAM
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:56:00 - [27] - Quote If Cal Logi becomes sidearm only, then I forsee them all carrying Black Eagle ARs. When will Black Eagles become tradeable? Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Kaze Eyrou DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:58:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to it's CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Agreed, so 3/3/4 for equipment, especially since I am also thinking of making the jack of all trades, basic mediums to have 2 eq. Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. Just wanted to echo the agreement of having equipment slots at 3/3/4. CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 12:07:00 - [29] - Quote Equipment at 3/3/4 makes the most sense. I still feel that all these equipment buffs lately should apply to logistics only. Especially with adding another suit with more than 1 equipment slot. Other suits can carry more than one piece of equipment, but they should always work best on a Logistics suit, imho. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 13:45:00 - [30] - Quote Talking about slot progression is all nice and fine but will you actually adress the role of the cal. logi? Cause since you buffed nanohives by ridicoulus amounts (6 nanohives for every 1) there is no need anymore for the nanohive bonus on the cal. logi. This post here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=196730 allready offers a adequate solution. And i think its time to fill the shield logistic hole. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 15:06:00 - [31] - Quote Well as I've stated before I've always felt the Logistics slot progression should match the Assault progression, the proto suits are nearly there as it is. Since we're moving to a flatlined slot layout, this seems to be the obvious course of action. Amarr 3 High 5 Low 3 Equipment 1 Sidearm (Fair trade for equipment loss) Caldari 5 High 3 Low (Add additional CPU to compensate for loss of low slot) 4 Equipment OR 3 Equipment + Sidearm Gallente 3 High 5 Low 4 Equipment Minmatar 4 High 4 Low 4 Equipment "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 15:06:00 - [32] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to it's CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Agreed, so 3/3/4 for equipment, especially since I am also thinking of making the jack of all trades, basic mediums to have 2 eq. Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. I personally don't see why it wouldn't work. Having the Cal Logi be the most survivable one, but have the worst offense, side arm being a last resort kind of thing. That's under the condition that it is indeed more survivable. Maybe. I've been using it a bit lately with a Magsec SMG only and I gotta say it's sort of frustrating not having enough fire-power to adequately defend myself, let alone my nanohives. The role is great on paper but without stagnant frontlines (I.E: Getting on a team with a bunch of mobile players who don't sit still) makes for a poor experience. You toss your hives down and then never get any WP. Defensible is great but only as long as you're bunkered down. Though, if Rattati moves forward with the EHP/Speed changes, this might change. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 272	Posted - 2015.05.27 15:45:00 - [33] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: The only stiff resistance was with getting rid of the Amarr Logi's sidearm. That resistance is still here, you shouldn't' get rid of it. It still a bad idea, no matter how much time passes between proposals. For all the talk of getting rid amar logis giving up a slot, i have no idea why it must be a low slot or sidearm slot. If anything,Amarr Logis should give up a high slot for an fourth equipment slot. There is no use for an extra high slot on an armor based suit, even combat a oriented one. Get rid of the slot that has the least utility for one that has the most makes the most logical sense. Cal Logi, and Gallente adv logis should mimic the assaults interms of high and low slots. Its a moot point since they are getting tiericided anyway, but for the short term, it should work out. Cladari should not downgrade to sidearem. I have always been against any sidearm only logi, or any suit restritced to become a sidearm only suit, fitting capacity or otherwise. 1 sidearm for the weapon slot means getting unable to return fire at medium range, and being out dps short range. Cal logis dont have the ewar /speed to be stealthy and , or the HP of a heavy to get away from long range situations. Bad idea. 3 Precision Enhancers is what I run to detect scouts on Amarr Logi...without a Detection Buff to Logis, I'd rather give up a low slot for the 4th equipment than sacrifice that support ability. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
GeorgeN76 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:31:00 - [34] - Quote Will try to sum this up quickly since I am at work using my phone. The equiptment is the logi, all logis should have 4 equiptment slots. That is what makes them. Heavys have the heavy weapons, commandoes have the 2 light weapons, scouts have ewar, assaults have more health & speed. Since they are going to made faster and more tanky give them 1 sidearm as an only weapon so they wont be used as assaults Scouts and Swarms
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 6	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:35:00 - [35] - Quote The calogi was indeed punished for old sins: back when they were released, they were given a bonus to shield extender HP, and became the ultimate "killer bees". Only these killer bees were super killer bees, because they could fight as well as an assault, while giving support as well as a logi. All at the same time. Aloha snackbar
thehellisgoingon MONSTER SYNERGY 487	Posted - 2015.05.27 16:36:00 - [36] - Quote The Amarr have the same high/low slots as the minmatar (at std) but I believe Amarr should keep the sidearm. These are 2 very different logistics suits. Minmatar is to be used with a heavy or assaults because the reptool bonus makes it a beast with warpoints. The Amarr logi is a lone wolf. They have to get to the point early and drop uplinks to get the team spawning in! I always run into scouts while dropping links and how many times has my trusted sidearm get me out of a pickle. That sidearm goes with the the play style of the Amarr logistics. I for one want the sidearm and don't mind -1 equipment slot. Please keep the sidearm. Or if the changes are once again so drastic please offer everyone a complimentary respec. I for one find it totally unfair that my suit totally changes without warning after spending time and money accumulating that much sp to get the suit and equipment proto. I have never played a game that changes so drastically as its being played. Is dust 514 just a big beta test for something greater? I'm just going to stop spending money on this game. (I stopped a while age) It's too frustrating. I need stability. But why is dust 514 like crack!?!?!?!? Time to play 1 mission for 1 key and peace out till next time mercs.
Liara Kaiba Shadow Broker Wet Squad 17	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:49:00 - [37] - Quote 2 equipment at standard is not enough, 3 is a minimum for a equipment-centred class. 3/3/4 would be a better progression according to me. About Amarr side weapon slots, I think it should be balanced with one high module slot. About module slots, eventhough tiericide might make the question obsolete, that progression would mimic the assault suits one. However the balance between assault and logistic class make use of four characteristics : 1) slot number 2) eWar stats 3) movement stats 4) base eHP Currently, assault are better in the last three and we are trying to balance the first one ignoring that. My opinion is logistic should have better movement stats (in progress as I see in the other post) and eWar while assault have better slot numbers and eHP. Including the proposition made about movement speed, I would reduce eWar stats of logistics and reduce slot number to 3-5-6.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:22:00 - [38] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to its CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Listen to her Rattati. Not only is she one of the best logis in the game she also knows the competitive side better than anyone else who have chimed into this thread. Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you AIV member.
The Eristic Art.of.Death 995	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:34:00 - [39] - Quote I would be happy with both Amarr and Cal having only 7 slots at Pro (2-5 & 5-2, assuming Cal gets that fitting buff) for 4 equip + sidearm, as they have bonuses to equipment that needs to be actively defended AND suits that need to be actively defended, as you lose the bonus when you die. I've found the sidearm hugely important in keeping my fast links up on the Amarr, and the Cal would certainly benefit from a sidearm similarly. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:49:00 - [40] - Quote YES YES YES YES YES! It's finally happening! I totally agree that Minmatar logi should be the model to follow. Alright. Everyone should mirror the Minmatar logistics module slot counts, and equipment slot counts at every tier (or really just proto since the powercore tiercide is happening eventually (YES FOR THAT ALSO!)) Caldari should not be an exception. Same module slot count, and same equipment progression as Min logi. Fix PG/CPU as planned. Amarr should keep sidearm, but lose a module compared to the other logis. They should have the same equipment progression. Please don't start equipment progression with 2, make it 3. Logis should not be undermined by scouts. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

zzZaXxx Capital Acquisitions LLC 755	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:19:00 - [41] - Quote RE: OP's questions... Same equipment progression for all No sidearm for all Normalize PG/CPU and slots Caldari: 3/1 - 4/2 - 5/3 Amarr & Gallente 1/3 - 2/4 - 3/5 RE: Bonuses... Bonuses to repair tools and scanners take them to a whole other level, but the Amarr and Caldari logis' bonuses don't really make a splash, especially now that you can carry so much more of a given equipment (+1 uplink spawn and +10% nanohive nanites bonuses devalued) so... Suggestion: Amarr Logistics Skill: -5% equipment fittings cost (no change) +10% uplink speed -5% uplink scan profile Caldari Logistics Skill: -5% equipment fittings cost (no change) +10% nanohive speed +5% nanohive nanites - Suggestion: Give logis more useful roles and make the game more dynamic with secondary and tertiary logi bonuses! (Distribution of bonuses follows same pattern as sentinal resistances.) For example... Gallente Logistics: -5% equipment fittings cost (no change) +10% scan duration/ -5% scan profile (no change) +8% repairer range +6% nanohive speed Amarr Logistics: -5% equipment fittings cost (no change) +10% uplink speed/ -5% uplink scan profile +8% nanohive speed +6% repairer range Minmatar Logistics: -5% equipment fittings cost (no change) +10% repairer range/ +5% repairer amount (no change) +8% scan duration +6% uplink speed Caldari Logistics: -5% equipment fittings cost (no change) +10% nanohive speed, +5% nanohive nanites +8% uplink speed +6% scan duration
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:24:00 - [42] - Quote For equipment, normalization should be 4 for all tiers. Equipment is normalized for all other classes (2 equipment for all tiers of scouts, 1 equipment for all tiers of commandos, etc.) So the same should be done for Logi suits. Let us take advantage of the one advantage that logis have over other suits: more equipment. As far as slot progression, I agree with your idea of 4/6/8. However, I believe slots should match their racial assault suit at the equivalent tier. So the adv callogi would have the same slot layout as the adv calassault. As to the sidearm of the AmarrLogi, I would vote for losing an equipment slot for it. Since it gains more offensive capabilities, it should lose some logistical capabilities in exchange. I would also vote for the CalLogi losing a low slot (after geting its CPU/PG buffed) and keep the 3 equipment slots and gain a sidearm slot as well. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:20:00 - [43] - Quote Bringing my thread up again: Please consider the CPU/PG numbers in this thread, as I used my best math skills to make them as proportionate to the Assault numbers as possible. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=200663 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 984	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:49:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to it's CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Agreed, so 3/3/4 for equipment, especially since I am also thinking of making the jack of all trades, basic mediums to have 2 eq. Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. Normally I read all the posts/comments before I post, but I had to say something about this. No on the Caldari being sidearm only. I'd rather have the 5 high slots, 3 low slots (to mirror the assault layout), and 4 equipment slots. As well as having the CPU to be able to do so. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
ZDub 303 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:08:00 - [45] - Quote I still believe there is a place for L/S logi style of play. Something in between scout and a full on Logistics. However, I think that should just be a separate suit. So Nuke the sidearm and make a new suit for those players who like that playstyle. Then, seriously consider racial bonuses along with slot layout. What is the point of a logistics? At the moment they have no clear defined role. One of them provides ammo, one of them provides reps, one provides spawn points, and one uses a scanner that will always either be irrelevant in face of scouts or make scouts irrelevant. 'Equipment' is not a role in my opinion, despite how others may feel. Most of the other classes have fairly well defined roles and they are better balanced because of it. However, "this class shoots stuff" is much easier to define than a support style. In the end I think you need to take a step back and reconsider the big picture before you dig in to support play. Scanning just doesn't make sense. Maybe you have done something since I quit playing that has found a way to make active scanners balanced with scout suits but I don't see how both can coexist and be relevant together. I would move all types of information warfare to the domain of the scouts and rework Gal Logi entirely. Drop Uplinks, if you've ever played Planetside 2, belongs more to the vehicle space than to equipment in my opinion. They ruined the early game of dust and I can't see a situation where they really truly still belong in the game. Drop Uplinks are a cancer, but if you must keep them I would give them to a suit that is faster and more agile than an Amarr Logi suit. (Cloak + Light Suit speed makes more sense, maybe a new role? Infiltrator?) Ammo belongs to a 'combat logi' type. L/S + Tank + Ammo but no damage/weapon bonuses and slower than assaults. The 'Medic' is the EVE definition of Logistics. I think create a suit based around Armor and Shield Rep tools with high tank, high speed, low damage. I know you're looking for a quick fix that only takes a few days, in that case normalize the slots and do 4E + 0S, it makes more sense at least.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:00:00 - [46] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to its CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Prior to bandwidth I would have voiced concerns about the unlocking of all 4 equipment slots at adv, let alone std, however now that we have BW in game and active I fully support the move to a 4/4/4 method. Fittings resources and BW with both still apply progression limits and with equipment being the defining feature of the role opening up those slots makes a lot of sense. As to the racial disparities I'll echo what others have said and what Zaria states in the quote above. Keep the total slots equal as per the Min base, give all logi save the Amarr 4 equipment (Cal to drop that extra low) and let the Amarr stay at 3 in exchange for it's possession of the sidearm slot. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:02:00 - [47] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to it's CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Agreed, so 3/3/4 for equipment, especially since I am also thinking of making the jack of all trades, basic mediums to have 2 eq. Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. I personally don't see why it wouldn't work. Having the Cal Logi be the most survivable one, but have the worst offense, side arm being a last resort kind of thing. That's under the condition that it is indeed more survivable. Agreed this is a novel idea and hopefully there will be some constructive discussion of it within this thread. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:26:00 - [48] - Quote GeorgeN76 wrote: Will try to sum this up quickly since I am at work using my phone. The equipment is the logi, all logis should have 4 equipment slots. That is what makes them. Heavys have the heavy weapons, commandos have the 2 light weapons, scouts have ewar, assaults have more health & speed. Since they are going to made faster and more tanky give them 1 sidearm as an only weapon so they wont be used as assaults Especially with all of the Sidearm selection now. Options have really opened up for that slot since the first time that the "Sidearm Logi" topic was brought up. Beyond that, it makes them co-dependant with their squad. It makes them need their squad for defense at anything beyond CQC as much as their squad will need their equipment expertise (given their bonuses to equipment usage). If these changes were paired with the other proposed changes, I think they'd be complimented by each other When you lose small mind you free your life....
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 501	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:39:00 - [49] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Give the Amarr logi another equipment slot there's really no need for another low besides brick tanking. but but i want to be a mlg logis slayer again just like the old time
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 15	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:39:00 - [50] - Quote Any thought on the calmando shield regen delay, it still need to be checked if it is their main tank...... Caldari scout bonus sucks but i like to honor my name.

Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 501	Posted - 2015.05.28 03:45:00 - [51] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Please, please don't reduce equipment count on any logi. 2 at standard is NOT ok, it is the same as what scouts have, how is the logi supposed to be the equipment specialist if a std scout can do the same job as a std logi? 3/3/4 as the Min has at the moment is acceptable, though I think you will find a lot of logis would support a 3/4/4 progression (if not 4/4/4), for good reasons too. The equipment is what defines the logistics class, making the 4 unlock only at proto is inelegant in my opinion (though, I assume some would say 4 at even adv is somehow OP :/). And giving logi suits only 2 equipment slots at std is worse. And yes, that is what the Cal and the Amarr have at the moment, there are reasons why so many of us logis have been asking for this slot progression balance pass for a long time ;) Personally I believe that the Caldari extra (low) slot in trade for the one equipment slot is fair, but unnecessary... It should really just have the same standard slot progression, just mirrored with the Gal, but I thing actual Cal logis should weigh in on that. With one less low slot but another equipment, it would still need some adjustment to its CPU (as you are correct, it is paying for the old sins of it's original suit bonus and the power of the tac AR). The Amarr logi trading a sidearm for an equipment is also fair enough, it should get the same amount of total slots as the others as well. Listen to her Rattati. Not only is she one of the best logis in the game she also knows the competitive side better than anyone else who have chimed into this thread. nope
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:06:00 - [52] - Quote I'd like to weigh in I've ran the Cal Logi as my main suit since chromosome. I reluctantly spec'd into Min Logi for the rep bonus in PC's back in the day. As much as I hate to admit, the 4th EQ slot almost by itself makes the ML a flat out better logi suit. So much more versatile and useful to the team. I'm also surprised by the erratic differences between these suits. As much as I like racial parity, balance is more important, and we can still keep these suits unique from each other while bringing them much closer in terms of slots. I think right off the bat, the Amarr could do without the SA in exchange for an EQ, although I don't run this suit. Here's what I think is the best compromise between balance and racial uniqueness Assuming all suits at proto level - Give all logi's one light weapon, one grenade slot, and no sidearm. - Give all logi's equal CAP/Slot - Give all logi's equal amount of remaining slots, but configured differently between H, L and EQ - Let racial play styles be determined by differential slot layout, bonuses and base stats. Examples, using 12 slots between H, L, and EQ Cal - 5H 3L 4EQ Am - 4H 4L 4EQ Min - 4H 4L 4 EQ GA - 3H 5L 4EQ These are numbers off the top of my head, but in my eyes this system accomplishes balance roughly, brings these suits much closer together and salvages racial parity This balances logi's amongst themselves, but leaves the logi/assault relationship in a weird place. The assault needs to be better at fighting, and the Sidearm alone doesn't accomplish that. I had always believed the trade off was that Logi's were slower and tankier, although that won't be the case for much longer. This makes me think that if logi's are to be faster than assaults, then they should have considerably less EHP, perhaps removing H/L slots to make up for having extra EQ. This would turn the logi into more of an actual support role, rather than a combat role, which would probably be for the best anyways. !--CCP, let's push for the license of Dust on both current Gen consoles--!
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:34:00 - [53] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: This would turn the logi into more of an actual support role, rather than a combat role, which would probably be for the best anyways. I agree with most of what you wrote, but please show me one example of where a Logi with all equipment slots filled with goodies, is "tankier". I get that a full tanked Logi is close to Assault HP, but that Assault is infinitely more versatile, due to not having to use all modules for tank. A fully tanked Logi is kind of a sitting duck currently... Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:13:00 - [54] - Quote what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:23:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows This would be a nerf to most Logis would it not? Could you explain your reasoning behind this? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:44:00 - [56] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows Would need more HP to compensate. That is if the speed changes don't make it with this. Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you AIV member.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:47:00 - [57] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows This would be a nerf to most Logis would it not? Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Giving Assault an advantage, since total slots on logi are 2 more at proto. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:01:00 - [58] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows This would be a nerf to most Logis would it not? Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Giving Assault an advantage, since total slots on logi are 2 more at proto. Well as a personal opinion, i think the differentiation between the roles, or that advantage, should be tied to secondary attributes (namely bonuses and things like a Scout's Cloak or a Commando's two weapons) rather than the defensive slots themselves. I think perhaps what is truly lacking here is "What can the Assault do that a Logistics suit will never be able to do?" and that should really be the primary focus here when trying to differentiate the two in ways the other cannot emulate. I mean if you think about it, the Assault is really the only specialty suit that doesn't have it's own gimick. Sentinels = Heavy Weapon, Commando = 2 Light Weapons, Scouts = Cloaks, Logis = Equipment. If we want to make the Assaults shine, they need to have something special that no other suit can fit/replicate. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:03:00 - [59] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows This would be a nerf to most Logis would it not? Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Giving Assault an advantage, since total slots on logi are 2 more at proto. The Assaults of yore had 2 equipment slots for a reason. Buffing and nerfing the same suit at the same time makes zero sense to me... Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:36:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows This would be a nerf to most Logis would it not? Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Giving Assault an advantage, since total slots on logi are 2 more at proto. As primarily an assault, I say please don't. Logis have less HP, no sidearm, and less speed (and assaults are thankfully not getting a speed nerf judging by your revision in HP vs speed thread), so having 8 slots like the assaults is fine considering they won't outrun or out-HP assaults fitted similarly. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 08:11:00 - [61] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows Why? Honest to god, the only reasoning I see for this is the calculations popping up in other threads on how the Caldari Logi specifically would become too good again in comparison to the Cal Assault... Which I personally see as an issue with the Cal Logi and Cal Assault suits, NOT the whole Logi class. And I thought you proclaimed your lack of fear of killer bees? You've already stated you're planning on making fitting Logi suits more... difficult is not the right word, necessary, but more equipment focused ( as they should be) and as a result, less versatile in other areas (not necessarily entirely a good thing). The thing with reducing module fitting capacity is that... brick tank is actually easier to fit in many cases than most of the utility modules. Which is not a purely Logistics related issue, but should actually be looked at as a whole to encourage people away from bricking any and all suits anyway... But I digress. As you're already partially walking back the speed canges to Logi (I am referring to sprint speed remaining the same as now) AND also removing a module slot on top of that, we're maybe even looking at a net nerf to Logis O.o Why do you think it would be necessary? Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
The Eristic Art.of.Death 995	Posted - 2015.05.28 08:20:00 - [62] - Quote 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 08:40:00 - [63] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows Why? Honest to god, the only reasoning I see for this is the calculations popping up in other threads on how the Caldari Logi specifically would become too good again in comparison to the Cal Assault... Which I personally see as an issue with the Cal Logi and Cal Assault suits, NOT the whole Logi class. And I thought you proclaimed your lack of fear of killer bees? You've already stated you're planning on making fitting Logi suits more... difficult is not the right word, necessary, but more equipment focused ( as they should be) and as a result, less versatile in other areas (not necessarily entirely a good thing). The thing with reducing module fitting capacity is that... brick tank is actually easier to fit in many cases than most of the utility modules. Which is not a purely Logistics related issue, but should actually be looked at as a whole to encourage people away from bricking any and all suits anyway... But I digress. As you're already partially walking back the speed canges to Logi (I am referring to sprint speed remaining the same as now) AND also removing a module slot on top of that, we're maybe even looking at a net nerf to Logis O.o Why do you think it would be necessary? I don't, it was just a question. It also relates to normalized fitting, but just thought I would throw it out there. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 08:41:00 - [64] - Quote The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

The Eristic Art.of.Death 995	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:02:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... This is just me speaking for myself, but I run all four logis on my chars, and I find the sidearm of the Amarr enormously more useful for defending myself and my links than grenades. It would eliminate the much more troublesome issue of H/L slot inconsistency vs equip sacrifice (which should not be an option if we want logis to be logis). Grenades are generally more offensive than defensive in this game, so let the Assaults and Sentinels throw the 'nades, let the logis keep them supplied? Also, it would also preclude the imminent Callogi killerbees buzzing about their endless Core Locus hives. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:28:00 - [66] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... I enjoy using flux grenades on all of my logi's, but I think there's some potential balance issues in regards to callogi & core locus grenades (54-81 grenades per spawn depending on what proto nanohive you have). Honestly, I think logi's should be 8-9 slots, grenade, no sidearm, 4 equipment. I run a lot of ewar fit logi's (4 accounts) that use 2-3 complex precision amps and sometimes 2 complex range amps (on callogi) depending on the slot layout I'm given, just because I find that it provides more constant 'use' to my team with the logistics scanning ranges & precision. I also get incredibly frustrated with the callogi because carrying a nanohive often precludes me from using more useful equipment at times (like a drop uplink or a repair tool), I would kill for a 4th equipment on it and happily give up a lowslot for it. At Proto: Caldari: 5high, 3low, Weapon, Grenade, 4 equipment Minmatar: 4high, 4low, Weapon, Grenade, 4 equipment. Gallente: 3High, 5low, Weapon, Grenade, 4 equipment. Amarr: 3high, (4?) 5low, Weapon, Sidearm, Grenade, (3?) 4equipment. (This is really up to the amarr if they want to trade an equipment or a lowslot for a sidearm or if they want to lose the sidearm and gain an equipment/lowslot). Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:42:00 - [67] - Quote Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:47:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows Why? Honest to god, the only reasoning I see for this is the calculations popping up in other threads on how the Caldari Logi specifically would become too good again in comparison to the Cal Assault... Which I personally see as an issue with the Cal Logi and Cal Assault suits, NOT the whole Logi class. And I thought you proclaimed your lack of fear of killer bees? You've already stated you're planning on making fitting Logi suits more... difficult is not the right word, necessary, but more equipment focused ( as they should be) and as a result, less versatile in other areas (not necessarily entirely a good thing). The thing with reducing module fitting capacity is that... brick tank is actually easier to fit in many cases than most of the utility modules. Which is not a purely Logistics related issue, but should actually be looked at as a whole to encourage people away from bricking any and all suits anyway... But I digress. As you're already partially walking back the speed canges to Logi (I am referring to sprint speed remaining the same as now) AND also removing a module slot on top of that, we're maybe even looking at a net nerf to Logis O.o Why do you think it would be necessary? I don't, it was just a question. It also relates to normalized fitting, but just thought I would throw it out there. My apologies if my response came across as an overreaction... Sometimes you scare me a bit with the way you "throw something out there" Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:51:00 - [69] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. Logi's already have a disadvantage vs assaults though - HP & Regen. Flux grenades are way too useful, especially when dealing with glitchy equipment. I'm not sure if it's even possible but what would limiting logi's to flux grenades be like? What if we actually implemented grenade 'sizes', with heavies getting the 'large' grenade slots (special contact grenades/very nasty heavy av grenades), assaults getting the mediums (the current run of grenades), and logi's getting 'light' grenades (same radius but half damage?). Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:51:00 - [70] - Quote The Eristic wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... This is just me speaking for myself, but I run all four logis on my chars, and I find the sidearm of the Amarr enormously more useful for defending myself and my links than grenades. It would eliminate the much more troublesome issue of H/L slot inconsistency vs equip sacrifice (which should not be an option if we want logis to be logis). Grenades are generally more offensive than defensive in this game, so let the Assaults and Sentinels throw the 'nades, let the logis keep them supplied? Also, it would also preclude the imminent Callogi killerbees buzzing about their endless Core Locus hives. But but but my flux nades... But seriously, once again... if Cal Logis with Core nades are a problem, does that really warrant removing the nade slot on all Logis? Or maybe it might be a time to take a look at locus nades and how they interact with the Cal Logi (and it's bonus to hives) specifically... Just a thought. MINA Longstrike wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. But flux grenades too useful, especially when dealing with glitchy equipment. I'm not sure if it's even possible but what would limiting logi's to flux grenades be like? What if we actually implemented grenade 'sizes', with heavies getting the 'large' grenade slots (special contact grenades/very nasty heavy av grenades), assaults getting the mediums (the current run of grenades), and logi's getting 'light' grenades (same radius but half damage?) Something along these lines would be vastly preferrable and more interesting than just plain removing the Logi's ability to support the team by, for instance, dealing with enemy equipment efficiently. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:57:00 - [71] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. Logi's already have a disadvantage vs assaults though - HP & Regen. Flux grenades are way too useful, especially when dealing with glitchy equipment. I'm not sure if it's even possible but what would limiting logi's to flux grenades be like? What if we actually implemented grenade 'sizes', with heavies getting the 'large' grenade slots (special contact grenades/very nasty heavy av grenades), assaults getting the mediums (the current run of grenades), and logi's getting 'light' grenades (same radius but half damage?). I am fearful that having grenade sizes would be a complexity for complexity's sake and will serve no real function. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:02:00 - [72] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. Logi's already have a disadvantage vs assaults though - HP & Regen. Flux grenades are way too useful, especially when dealing with glitchy equipment. I'm not sure if it's even possible but what would limiting logi's to flux grenades be like? What if we actually implemented grenade 'sizes', with heavies getting the 'large' grenade slots (special contact grenades/very nasty heavy av grenades), assaults getting the mediums (the current run of grenades), and logi's getting 'light' grenades (same radius but half damage?). I am fearful that having grenade sizes would be a complexity for complexity's sake and will serve no real function. Possibly. I think there are some balance upsides to it though. It would allow logi's to keep grenades without core locus idiocy being present everywhere or allowing them to 'overperform' against suits that they probably shouldnt (lol allotek flux & combat rifle vs cal/minsent). It also potentially gives heavies a unique and limited but nasty grenade option. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:25:00 - [73] - Quote Just throwing this out there Amarr logi is 3 HS / 1 L / 1 S /1G /3 EQ /4 LS Instead of removing a low slot or the side arm, i propose trading the high slot 2 HS / 1 L / 1 S / 1 G / 4 EQ / 4 LS Unless anybody can tell me what the third high can be used for on an armor suit, i think thats the best trade. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 904	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:39:00 - [74] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Just throwing this out there Amarr logi is 3 HS / 1 L / 1 S /1G /3 EQ /4 LS Instead of removing a low slot or the side arm, i propose trading the high slot 2 HS / 1 L / 1 S / 1 G / 4 EQ / 4 LS Unless anybody can tell me what the third high can be used for on an armor suit, i think thats the best trade. Actually, it should be 2 HS / 1 L / 1 S / 1 G / 4 EQ / 5 LS , or maybe 3H, 4L or if equipment trade is chosen: 3 HS / 1 L / 1 S / 1 G / 3 EQ / 5 LS Either way it should be 8 mods + 4 equipment + sidearm - 1 equipment or module. It's possible that swapping a high slot for a sidearm would be overpowered though.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:44:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... The grenade is far to vital to clearing enemy equipment IMO (flux nades) to have it removed. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:37:00 - [76] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... The grenade is far to vital to clearing enemy equipment IMO (flux nades) to have it removed. Agreed. As long as the Logis get to have 4EQ slots, a Light weapon, and Grenades I really couldn't care less about how many High/Low slots are deemed appropriate. (Nor Sidearm slot)
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:11:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows I was actually thinking this too. What if a Logi takes the assault fitting, and simply drags the sidearm, and two more slots into EQ. Carries more equipment - is less combat effective. Working as intended !--CCP, let's push for the license of Dust on both current Gen consoles--!
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:18:00 - [78] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows I was actually thinking this too. What if a Logi takes the assault fitting, and simply drags the sidearm, and two more slots into EQ. Carries more equipment - is less combat effective. Working as intended Seven slots is ~~prettymuch~~ a unilateral nerf. Logi's are already lacking in hp and regen values compared to assaults - yes they get marginally higher inherent armor rep, at the cost of much worse shield recharge and longer delays. 8 high/low slots is fine, it allows for some flexability and utility oriented fittings without completely giving up HP. I'll still be able to create a cal ewar logi for example with 2precision in highs and 2 range in lows - the one I currently run can die to a single shotgun shot if I'm not incredibly careful and that's with one more low Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Balistyc Farshot OUTCAST MERCS General Tso's Alliance 192	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:32:00 - [79] - Quote I wonder if the grenade versus side arm discussion could perhaps make the logi focused on being the king of explosives. In the real battlefield, the engineers plant the explosives. What if one of the logi suits was made specifically to be the grenadier class style suit. I would recommend the Gal logi and remove the scanner bonus (I like the bonus but EWAR is an issue in this game, period) for adding x % to explosive weapon splash dmg range. Then give it 2 grenade slots, no sidearm, 1 light, 3 equipment slots. 3 equipment for 1 nanohive, 1-2 sets of REs, and potentially a third piece of equipment. Then this suit becomes a suit that runs with the assaults with a purpose besides standing back behind a wall and scanning every 2 minutes. This could be one of the other logis as well, but not the min, they have a lot of bonuses to be assault logis already. I know, I do that now. With the team chat gone, we need to really start leveraging the squad finder!
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 692	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:29:00 - [80] - Quote A past point was about how the different Logis use different types of equipment. Amarr and Caldari set them down, Gallente and Minmatar use their equipment actively. Maybe the former should get sidearms to have more to do? Personally, I kind of dislike how every Logi only gets one type of equipment bonus. It pigeonholds them too much. I do like the idea of demolition Logis. Grenades, REs, etc. for some fun indirect fire support. Hell, a demo Logi could even lay traps and then lure enemies into them with suppressive fire from team mates.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:37:00 - [81] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... If I may weigh in here sir, Grenades are traditionally a frontline attack mode issued to personnel involved in breaching, patrolling and active defense. They are not normally issued among combat engineers, medics and logistics crews under most circumstances. Battle rifles and sidearms are more common for personal defense when tasked to frontline units. To be honest grenades are more useful to assaults and scouts than to logis and sentinels. Machinegun teams tend to be more focused on feeding the bullet devourer. But they still get issued them. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 378	Posted - 2015.05.28 15:15:00 - [82] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. ^^^^ this is NOT a good idea at all. A logi needs a grenade for tank spam and eguipment clearing!! I have said before as a logi I would be totally ok with sidearm only but if that's the case I believe we should get a speed AND an ehp buff. No one will want to be a slayer logi with a sidearm. If need be make it where a logi cannot carry locust grenades this would take care of lolcorespam Most all dedicated logis would be ok with sidearm only.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:13:00 - [83] - Quote So in light of these two aspect from the other thread. CCP Rattati wrote: The designs need to make sense, intuitively. In order of priority, imagine a pyramid Slot progression needs to make sense, within roles and between roles PG/CPU capacity as they relate to slots and their layout HP and Speed are inverse, that's just physics and again intuitive These 3 principles form the foundation for Dropsuits. While they don't make sense, all the small things on top don't really matter. That's why I am not tackling role bonuses, because the foundation is cracked and not worth building on. CCP Rattati wrote: The rules of thumb as applied to the Medium class now: Mobility (stamina pool and recovery) CA/GA = normal Amarr= 5% lower Minmatar = 5% higher Sprint Basic = normal = 1.4x Logistics = normal-0.1 = 1.3x Assault = normal+0.1 = 1.5x eHP Basic = normal Logistics = lower Assault = higher Speed Basic = normal Logistics = higher Assault = lower I'm wondering what Stamina numbers and HP numbers we're looking at for the new base logi profiles to keep them in line with the stated 'Speed higher, eHP lower' method outlined above (a method I'm heartily in support of btw), in light of the assault having a higher sprint speed. I must say I am really excited to see all roles game wide adhere to a consistent logical method determining how they are iterated to give equal and balanced survivability while maintaining diversity of function (I'm also looking forward to later once survival of all roles is balance, giving the assault some love via their bonuses as has long been requested, but that obviously is a project of it's own o7 ) CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 475	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:48:00 - [84] - Quote a faster cal logi is still going to suck more than cal assault due to low shield regen and high delay.. 3 more equipment slots wont' make it any more of a slayer.. brick tank and stand on triage hives, might as well do the same with cal assault since it has much faster shield regen. faster min logi breaks hit detection.. another fotm, start skilling today. faster gal logi improves upon gal assault builds.. probably reason for buff, more fun for armor users, more triage hives, scans and nade spam. faster amar logi is good for getting those links down.. fine by me I really see no reason to buff logi speed.... there are much greater issues with the game that should be dealt with rather than how fast a logi runs and whether amar should lose it's sidearm. Caldari will still be worst logi regardless of changes.
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:50:00 - [85] - Quote I was getting kind of annoyed at gallogi only having 2 low slots and nothing else at standard level while minny had 2high and 2 low. Never inderstood this have ask for a change before and it was never answered Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dergle Negative-Feedback. 87	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:09:00 - [86] - Quote Please please don't get rid of my grenade slot the mk.0 logi !! I need them fluxes :/ Ignore your instincts at your peril.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 928	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:10:00 - [87] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. I would agree. Don't know about the grenade slot, but giving all Logis Sidearms only seems like a smart move. Then at least we finally can put to rest all these killer Logis threads and discussions... I would go as far as giving Amaar 2 Sidearm slots in exchange for the equipment slots, making them "Commandos" Light.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:21:00 - [88] - Quote Al the destroyer wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. ^^^^ this is NOT a good idea at all. A logi needs a grenade for tank spam and eguipment clearing!! I have said before as a logi I would be totally ok with sidearm only but if that's the case I believe we should get a speed AND an ehp buff. No one will want to be a slayer logi with a sidearm. If need be make it where a logi cannot carry locust grenades this would take care of lolcorespam Most all dedicated logis would be ok with sidearm only. Why not? Tanks can't do everything, LAVs cant do inverything, Sentinels can't do everything, why should logistics be able to do everything? CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 381	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:41:00 - [89] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Al the destroyer wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. ^^^^ this is NOT a good idea at all. A logi needs a grenade for tank spam and eguipment clearing!! I have said before as a logi I would be totally ok with sidearm only but if that's the case I believe we should get a speed AND an ehp buff. No one will want to be a slayer logi with a sidearm. If need be make it where a logi cannot carry locust grenades this would take care of lolcorespam Most all dedicated logis would be ok with sidearm only. Why not? Tanks can't do everything, LAVs cant do inverything, Sentinels can't do everything, why should logistics be able to do everything? Your talking about taking 2 things away BIG DIFFERENCE! As I said I wouldn't mind if you made logis sidearm only wouldn't change my play style at all. But trying to Nerf logis because you aren't one or you don't see their worth makes no sense to me. Why do you hate logis so much? So if a logi had a sidearm and a grenade not even a locust he could do everything!?!?! Ridiculous Edit get some sleep, take a breath, or take a walk and think about what you are saying your a CPM FFS!
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:44:00 - [90] - Quote It's at times like this when I read through threads such as this one that I find myself with my face in my palm, shaking my head. There are a few good ideas being talked about but I see so many ideas that make me think, "Have some of you ever even been a logi before!?" I don't mean just chubby chasing or camping at Alpha on Impact Ridge with a heavy and a rep tool. There is a lot more to being a good logi than that. I await with anticipation the outcome of this discussion. "Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa

Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 929	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:47:00 - [91] - Quote Al the destroyer wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Al the destroyer wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. ^^^^ this is NOT a good idea at all. A logi needs a grenade for tank spam and eguipment clearing!! I have said before as a logi I would be totally ok with sidearm only but if that's the case I believe we should get a speed AND an ehp buff. No one will want to be a slayer logi with a sidearm. If need be make it where a logi cannot carry locust grenades this would take care of lolcorespam Most all dedicated logis would be ok with sidearm only. Why not? Tanks can't do everything, LAVs cant do inverything, Sentinels can't do everything, why should logistics be able to do everything? Your talking about taking 2 things away BIG DIFFERENCE! As I said I wouldn't mind if you made logis sidearm only wouldn't change my play style at all. But trying to Nerf logis because you aren't one or you don't see their worth makes no sense to me. Why do you hate logis so much? So if a logi had a sidearm and a grenade not even a locust he could do everything!?!?! Ridiculous Edit get some sleep, take a breath, or take a walk and think about what you are saying your a CPM FFS! Easy now...both of you We need to take baby steps here. I agree with AI that removing two things at once is probably to over nerf things. Making Logis Sidearm only but retaining the grenade slot I think is the step in the right direction. We have excellent Sidearms now, and when I need to switch to a weapon in my Logi suite I'm usually already in CQC.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:52:00 - [92] - Quote Whats this about logis losing grenades? Whats an actual valid reason? Are logis getting a disporpotionate number of grenade kills? Are they fluxing too much equipment? Grenades are just as defensive as they are offensive. Clearing remotes, enemy logi equipment spam, back up AV nades, or sometime just to chuck it into a room before a heavy clears it out. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Why not? Tanks can't do everything, LAVs cant do inverything, Sentinels can't do everything, why should logistics be able to do everything? Tossing a grenade means doing everything? Because logis can't - cloak and be as mobile as a scout (mobility ewar) - fight like an Assault (more hp/ weapon bonus / sidearm) - tank hp like a heavy - AV as well as anyother suit, especially commandos But tossing a grenade makes em jack of all trades. Sigh.... Side arm only logis???!!! Al the destroyer wrote: Most all dedicated logis would be ok with sidearm only. No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop. These two are really, really bad ideas. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 929	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:06:00 - [93] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop. These two are really, really bad ideas. Just out of curiosity, - what weapon do you equip on your Logi (usually)? - What instances/scenarios in a match is it vital you have just that weapon? - And last, in those instances, could you have used a sidearm just as effectively?
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 381	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:21:00 - [94] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Whats this about logis losing grenades? Whats an actual valid reason? Are logis getting a disporpotionate number of grenade kills? Are they fluxing too much equipment? Grenades are just as defensive as they are offensive. Clearing remotes, enemy logi equipment spam, back up AV nades, or sometime just to chuck it into a room before a heavy clears it out. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Why not? Tanks can't do everything, LAVs cant do inverything, Sentinels can't do everything, why should logistics be able to do everything? Tossing a grenade means doing everything? Because logis can't - cloak and be as mobile as a scout (mobility ewar) - fight like an Assault (more hp/ weapon bonus / sidearm) - tank hp like a heavy - AV as well as anyother suit, especially commandos But tossing a grenade makes em jack of all trades. Sigh.... Side arm only logis???!!! Al the destroyer wrote: Most all dedicated logis would be ok with sidearm only. No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop. These two are really, really bad ideas. Lol I don't want to lose either but I sure don't want to lose both If I had to choose I'd keep the grenade and go sidearm only.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:34:00 - [95] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop. These two are really, really bad ideas. Just out of curiosity, - what weapon do you equip on your Logi (usually)? - What instances/scenarios in a match is it vital you have just that weapon? - And last, in those instances, could you have used a sidearm just as effectively? Personally I like to use a Mass Driver with my Minmatar Logistics. I typically use it as a bombardment tool to keep enemies behind cover from a distance while my heavy/assaults/commandos push up across the open to pin and finish said enemies off. Could I do this with a sidearm? Well the only option would be a flaylock I suppose, and that lacks the range or splash damage to really work in the fashion I use my Mass Driver. Similarly, I will often use a Laser Rifle on my Amarr Logi to keep enemies behind cover and for the psychological effect that I can typically control their movements and 'push' them towards and unfavorable position where the rest of my team can more readily kill them. There are really no sidearms that replicate the effect of the Laser Rifle, so I can't really go that route either. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 929	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:47:00 - [96] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop. These two are really, really bad ideas. Just out of curiosity, - what weapon do you equip on your Logi (usually)? - What instances/scenarios in a match is it vital you have just that weapon? - And last, in those instances, could you have used a sidearm just as effectively? Personally I like to use a Mass Driver with my Minmatar Logistics. I typically use it as a bombardment tool to keep enemies behind cover from a distance while my heavy/assaults/commandos push up across the open to pin and finish said enemies off. Alternatively it pushes enemies OUT of cover, into the higher direct DPS fire of my allies. Could I do this with a sidearm? Well the only option would be a flaylock I suppose, and that lacks the range or splash damage to really work in the fashion I use my Mass Driver. Similarly, I will often use a Laser Rifle on my Amarr Logi to keep enemies behind cover and for the psychological effect that I can typically control their movements and 'push' them towards and unfavorable position where the rest of my team can more readily kill them. There are really no sidearms that replicate the effect of the Laser Rifle, so I can't really go that route either. Fair points. Thanks
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:53:00 - [97] - Quote I think people often get too focused on the whole Light Weapon thing with Logistics. I think its not so much that the Logistics has a Light Weapon, but more so that using an Assault doesn't make your weapons feel like they're on steroids. I mean hypothetically speaking, if Assaults had a +10% Damage bonus like the Commandos do, do you think people would mind Logistics having that Light Weapon? I really don't. The issue is more so that there isn't enough setting the Logistics and Assault apart, I will agree with you there. But I think nerfing the types of weapons Logistics can use, is going to actually do a lot of harm in many cases. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 386	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:56:00 - [98] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: It's at times like this when I read through threads such as this one that I find myself with my face in my palm, shaking my head. There are a few good ideas being talked about but I see so many ideas that make me think, "Have some of you ever even been a logi before!?" I don't mean just chubby chasing or camping at Alpha on Impact Ridge with a heavy and a rep tool. There is a lot more to being a good logi than that. I await with anticipation the outcome of this discussion. Being a logi in 0.H was a heck of a learning curve. I changed from brick tanking to scan and speed tanking. Most of my min fits don't even have a rep tool! I use the min for speed most of my proto fits can't even take a core nade! 0.H doesn't run heavys very often and try repping a min assault that runs at 9.5 meters/s. Its all about uplinks scans and ammo!
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:26:00 - [99] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop. These two are really, really bad ideas. Just out of curiosity, - what weapon do you equip on your Logi (usually)? - What instances/scenarios in a match is it vital you have just that weapon? - And last, in those instances, could you have used a sidearm just as effectively? These are the logis i run, to be fair, Min Logi is my go to suit, followed by the gallente, Amarr, and lastly the caldari. - Min logi BK 42 Combat Rifle : medium range support for the guys i'm repping, close range backup vs enemies who get too close. If there's a guy behind the heavies gunning for me, I need to drop the reps and engage. - Cal logi SB 39 Rail Rifle: Caldari i use for its nanohive, and long range support. I dont want to venture too far away from the nest i set up. This is the logi i use the least, others might utilize it differently. Shields aren't very useful in close range fights, let alone the Cal logi. I setup triage hives/ammo hive behind the front line, and use the rail rifles keep enemies pinged back at range. Gal Logi Kalakiota Rail Rifle: After two scanners and a proto rep tool the adv logi can fit a proto gun. Same logic as the caldari. No need to run in close, the job is to light up enemies from a distance. The most reliable is the rail rifle. - Amarr Logi Assault scrambler, breach pistol : Medium to close range fights. Very usefull vs sneaky scouts, not so much vs armor tanked suits. Defend uplinks at all costs. Unless theres a sidearm does is better than a combat rifles in CQC, 2 sidarms that will outperform a side arm and a light weapon, or a sidearm that will out perform the rail rifle at long range, no i could not use any of the sidearms as effectively. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:10:00 - [100] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... If I may weigh in here sir, Grenades are traditionally a frontline attack mode issued to personnel involved in breaching, patrolling and active defense. They are not normally issued among combat engineers, medics and logistics crews under most circumstances. Battle rifles and sidearms are more common for personal defense when tasked to frontline units. To be honest grenades are more useful to assaults and scouts than to logis and sentinels. Machinegun teams tend to be more focused on feeding the bullet devourer. But they still get issued them. I usually equip Av grenades on all my logi fits to scare away vehicles for a time being. I wouldn't miss it but its just another thing I do to support the team. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!

Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 832	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:19:00 - [101] - Quote It is worth mentioning, I only use my Caldari Logi as a grenade spammer. I find a good defensive position, lay down some hives, and proceed with Core mortar fire (Or Lai Dai AV). I only use my Gal logi for scans. I only use my Amarr logi for links. I use my Minmatar logi for reps. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
The-Errorist 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:28:00 - [102] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows It would be great if that's for having a normalized slot progression of 1 slot gain per tier or just 7 for all suits with the power cores. I made a threads and spreadsheets months ago basically saying that medium frames are the only ones that break from the norm of 1 module slot per tier (except basic medium from STD->ADV). Base HP and or speed would have to be adjusted afterwards. Also there should be two types of logis, one without sidearms like Min ogis and one with them like Amarr logis. Those are in the spreadsheet too. Suits, Tanks, a mode
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:15:00 - [103] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Making Logis Sidearm only but retaining the grenade slot I think is the step in the right direction. We have excellent Sidearms now, and when I need to switch to a weapon in my Logi suite I'm usually already in CQC. No, it is not a step in the right direction, sidearms are hilariously bad compared to any primary weapon. Try defending yourself from a shotgun scout with only a magsec. As I've highlighted before, a magsec does ~322 dps at 40m whereas an ARR (which has relatively comparable fitting) does 400ish dps at twice the range. Making logi's sidearm only is a crippling nerf. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 388	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:40:00 - [104] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Making Logis Sidearm only but retaining the grenade slot I think is the step in the right direction. We have excellent Sidearms now, and when I need to switch to a weapon in my Logi suite I'm usually already in CQC. No, it is not a step in the right direction, sidearms are hilariously bad compared to any primary weapon. Try defending yourself from a shotgun scout with only a magsec. As I've highlighted before, a magsec does ~322 dps at 40m whereas an ARR (which has relatively comparable fitting) does 400ish dps at twice the range. Making logi's sidearm only is a crippling nerf. Yes it would be crippling if they only do the sidearm but if they make logis sidearm only and add ehp and speed it would be worth it to me. If I didn't have to run a kin Kat on every suit have almost the same speed and more ehp I would be happy with that. Those of you who "want it all" are going to be our demise! Remember the slayer logi and the nerfs afterwards probably not because you just went out and killed with a different suit. But I don't use my logi to slay with so I should just stay out of it and let you guys make the decisions. Nice example of a scout at close range with a long range weapon.
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 388	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:06:00 - [105] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop. These two are really, really bad ideas. Just out of curiosity, - what weapon do you equip on your Logi (usually)? - What instances/scenarios in a match is it vital you have just that weapon? - And last, in those instances, could you have used a sidearm just as effectively? Personally I like to use a Mass Driver with my Minmatar Logistics. I typically use it as a bombardment tool to keep enemies behind cover from a distance while my heavy/assaults/commandos push up across the open to pin and finish said enemies off. Alternatively it pushes enemies OUT of cover, into the higher direct DPS fire of my allies. Could I do this with a sidearm? Well the only option would be a flaylock I suppose, and that lacks the range or splash damage to really work in the fashion I use my Mass Driver. Similarly, I will often use a Laser Rifle on my Amarr Logi to keep enemies behind cover and for the psychological effect that I can typically control their movements and 'push' them towards and unfavorable position where the rest of my team can more readily kill them. There are really no sidearms that replicate the effect of the Laser Rifle, so I can't really go that route either. Fair points. Thanks Edit: To clarify a bit, the reason I asked is because there are a lot of different opinions floating around what makes "a true Logi", based solely on their own playstyle. Personally I tend to stay close to my squad at all times to assist in revives, ammo and rep. I don't use area of effect weapons like the mass driver, which would be suicidal in FW. When I need to switch to a weapon to assist in the killing it's usually because we are overwhelmed and no amount of resurrection, ammo or rep will make a difference. This is usually CQC, and I tend to soften enemies for my team to take out, or finishing off stragglers. I could as easily do this with a sidearm, so for me it would make no difference. Now, does this make me a lesser Logi? (Not that you called me that.. ) No it makes you a logi a real one not too many of us out there. Everyone thinks being a logi is easy what's not easy is keeping the gun put away and the other equipment out especially when the shotgun scout is trying to kill you first. I promise with me in the game my team will kill more, stay alive longer, use less clones, spawn closer, and see the enemy better without me even pulling my gun out that's what a logi does. If I have to I pull my gun out we're already screwed.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:38:00 - [106] - Quote I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:52:00 - [107] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Is that an actual possibility? Or a pipe dream? Would certainly get a few certain individuals to STFU. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:56:00 - [108] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. As in only logos can equip them, or that logos can't equip rifles? Personally I feel like that's removing sandbox play, but its definitely a workable compromise with some tweaking. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Booby Tuesdays Bad Mother Thukkers 1	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:58:00 - [109] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. As in only logos can equip them, or that logos can't equip rifles? Personally I feel like that's removing sandbox play, but its definitely a workable compromise with some tweaking. I think he means that support weapons would be combat effective, but rifles equipped would be gimpy compared to when on other suits. Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 388	Posted - 2015.05.29 00:17:00 - [110] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. I'm down can you do it?

Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 01:04:00 - [111] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Eh, I don't like it. Anything that takes away player freedom needs should be avoided. What would doing this even accomplish? Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Imp Smash molon labe. RUST415 859	Posted - 2015.05.29 01:05:00 - [112] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. Hmm, I mean, sure... so, Cal logi would have an extra module slot, standard equipment progression, and only a sidearm...? That would certainly differentiate it. Best defense, worst offense, same equipment potential. This might be a balance nightmare, but still, intriguing. Though I am not sure why it couldn't just have the standard logi slots numbers (so, same as gal and min)... It would be simpler, but perhaps also more boring ;) This seems odd to me in terms of racial design. Caldari are shield based. They generally die the fastest to damage because of it. It would be somewhat strange to me that their Logi can take a beating better than other Logis. Wouldn't you buff Cal Logis regen and regen delay stats rather than give them another slot to stack HP? Disclaimer: I'm not against it -- it's just surprising and somewhat counterintuitive to me.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 02:24:00 - [113] - Quote Logi since openbeta. Run all 4 regularly. Adv in pubs, Pro in PC and FW. Run close blob support, flanking/recon, ewar, AV, point control, denial and infiltration regularly via mix-n-match of suits, eq, mods and weaponry. 1) If the powercore thing is a go why are we yet again discussing homogenization? I am against tinkering with the existing slot layouts since gameplay-wise theyre already balanced against the rest of the field BUT acknowledge the gains to be made PS3/netcode-wise with powercores so for those I'd be willing to along. But just as an exercise in changing things because we can? No. 2) Sidearm-only Logis is an awful idea, perpetuated by non-logis or the continuity with EVE crowd who don't understand the difference between naval warfare and ground warfare OR the difference between 16v16 and infinity vs infinity. Nerf nerf nerf. 3)No nade idea see #2, substitute the concept "no nade" for "sidearm only". 4) CalLogi should get a sidearm for the missing slot. Amarr should keep its sidearm and not lose anything else to do so. 5) Cross Atu's equipment bonus proposal regarding applying eq bonuses to all logis should be implemented. In a nutshell we keep our existing racials and get either 50% of all the others OR a descending scale racial friend-racial enemy 50%-10%. 6) We need buffs . Not a redraw or a rework or a whole new redesign. Just some simple buffing across the board, the eq bonusing and CalLogi reunited with its long-lost cpu allocation, and introduced to a sidearm. 7) If number 6 is that huge of a deal, that totally gamebreaking that its inconceivable it wouldnt be enormously OP then make ALL logi frames Dropsuit Command level 5, CPU upgrades level 5 and PG upgrade level 5 to unlock them. Keeps the riffraff/fotms/ and wp whores out. Hell, add a Warbarge Strategem requirement. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 7	Posted - 2015.05.29 02:26:00 - [114] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. I really wouldn't consider MDs to be support weapons. Were I to use them in FW or PC, I would probably murder half my team with them. Bad on logis because we can't pull out a more precise weapon Aloha snackbar
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 02:29:00 - [115] - Quote And Zaria Min Dier is indeed one of the better logis out there, very well versed in the competitive side of logistics. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 02:51:00 - [116] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. All of those weapons have no place for a support logi, with the exception of the Mass driver. All of these weapons have major weaknesss that must be compensated for with a secondary weapon, be it sidearms for assaults and scouts or secondary light weapons for the commandos. Unfeasable: Sniper Rifle: Well, sniping is the opposite of supporting your team with rep, hives, and uplinks. Swarms: Except the amarr logi, you are incapable of engaging infantry. PLC: well I have yet to see any PLC support logi fits. PLC works best with a sidearm as back up. Otherwise, the only suit to run PLC only is the Galmando, which they dual wield Again, its AV work, with some use as antiinfantry. You have to be agressive with it, and ambush players. Partially feasable: Shotgun: They work with speed fits and stealth fits so you are not killed moving from place to another. Either your sprinting around trying to get kills not being a logi, or your are just hoping that the enemy comes within 10m to shoot you. Really a last resort. - Laser rifle, polar opposite of the shotgun, You have to be removed from the fight, and you dont have the Amarr bonus to kill an enemy before it overheats. Anybody that gets midrange you'll be in reall trouble. All of these weapons are the domain of the other suits. Commandos for sniping, swarms and PLC. Amarr Assaults for Laser rifle, Scouts for the shotgun. These are all niche weapons, for a very specific situations. Its offering logis to be the best at things they dont need. Logis don't need niche weapons, logis need reliable ones, to help push a point with the assaults and heavies. And the rifles work just fine. Al the destroyer wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. I'm down can you do it? Theres nothing stopping you right now from logging on and crippling your own logi fit. You want to rep heavies carrying sniper rifle, shoot back at RRs with a shotgun, or run a single ion pistol on your gal logi, because you want a sidearm only logi great. Have at it. Its a sandbox. Play as you like. But keep your fitting choices to yourself, and stop trying to push it as a requirement on others. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 03:23:00 - [117] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. If this game had a marksmen rifle instead of a sniper rifle I could see that working better. I understand the sentiment of giving the Logis bonuses to these sorts of weapons and hindering their use of the main rifles, but I wouldn't want to limit the freedom of choice that the suits have. I almost wonder though if it would be better to use the assaults as a baseline in terms of movement for the curve and then adjust the suits around them instead though. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 388	Posted - 2015.05.29 03:24:00 - [118] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. All of those weapons have no place for a support logi, with the exception of the Mass driver. All of these weapons have major weaknesss that must be compensated for with a secondary weapon, be it sidearms for assaults and scouts or secondary light weapons for the commandos. Unfeasable: Sniper Rifle: Well, sniping is the opposite of supporting your team with rep, hives, and uplinks. Swarms: Except the amarr logi, you are incapable of engaging infantry. PLC: well I have yet to see any PLC support logi fits. PLC works best with a sidearm as back up. Otherwise, the only suit to run PLC only is the Galmando, which they dual wield Again, its AV work, with some use as antiinfantry. You have to be agressive with it, and ambush players. Partially feasable: Shotgun: They work with speed fits and stealth fits so you are not killed moving from place to another. Either your sprinting around trying to get kills not being a logi, or your are just hoping that the enemy comes within 10m to shoot you. Really a last resort. - Laser rifle, polar opposite of the shotgun, You have to be removed from the fight, and you dont have the Amarr bonus to kill an enemy before it overheats. Anybody that gets midrange you'll be in reall trouble. All of these weapons are the domain of the other suits. Commandos for sniping, swarms and PLC. Amarr Assaults for Laser rifle, Scouts for the shotgun. These are all niche weapons, for a very specific situations. Its offering logis to be the best at things they dont need. Logis don't need niche weapons, logis need reliable ones, to help push a point with the assaults and heavies. And the rifles work just fine. Al the destroyer wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. I'm down can you do it? Theres nothing stopping you right now from logging on and crippling your own logi fit. You want to rep heavies carrying sniper rifle, shoot back at RRs with a shotgun, or run a single ion pistol on your gal logi, because you want a sidearm only logi great. Have at it. Its a sandbox. Play as you like. But keep your fitting choices to yourself, and stop trying to push it as a requirement on others. It don't matter what gun I use lol I use an exile in PC brah so I'll say what I want when I want got it and like I said I'm not for sidearm only logi read my responses again I just don't want equipment spammer logi slayers LIKE YOU! Ruining it for the rest of us! Anyone else use the old Callogi for a logi before the CPU Nerf? If you don't know what I'm talking about you don't know the pain I've went through because of people like you! So go ahead say what you want. OPEN BETA LOGI MYSELF
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 03:54:00 - [119] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. As in only logos can equip them, or that logos can't equip rifles? Personally I feel like that's removing sandbox play, but its definitely a workable compromise with some tweaking. I agree. Removing this leads to certain strange "fun" things going away. It's like long ago in EVEm a few people would fit up neuting bait Guardians(T2 Amarr logistics cruiser) The ship had a per level bonus to "Cap emission modules" which most people used for remote capacitor transmitters but few learned that the bonus worked on neuts. Of course it was "fixed" but little things like this makes games much more interesting. The cup is not half empty as pacifists sayyyyyyyyy AIV member.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:23:00 - [120] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Eh, I don't like it. Anything that takes away player freedom needs should be avoided. What would doing this even accomplish? Agree'd. Can only imagine running Amarr Logi and being stuck with a Laser Rifle to guard Drop-Uplinks. Or a Caldari Logi and having to put nanohives on the front-line, only to double-back to use the sniper rifle. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)

Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 932	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:08:00 - [121] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Initial reaction: Yeah After a few seconds thought: No thanks There is no need for an extra slot which can't be done with bonuses (or penalties). In addition, With SKINs and potential Power Cores we start to run out of slot space. Overall, I see the other's points regarding support weapons, and players should be free to play their Logi as they like. Personally I don't play like that, so for me I don't care if Logis are sidearm only. But it's not fair to push an agenda that only fits you...
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:09:00 - [122] - Quote Al the destroyer wrote: It don't matter what gun I use lol I use an exile in PC brah so I'll say what I want when I want got it and like I said I'm not for sidearm only logi read my responses again I just don't want equipment spammer logi slayers LIKE YOU! Ruining it for the rest of us! Anyone else use the old Callogi for a logi before the CPU Nerf? If you don't know what I'm talking about you don't know the pain I've went through because of people like you! So go ahead say what you want. OPEN BETA LOGI MYSELF Okay hardcore dudebrah, you use an exile in PC. Here's a cookie. So you used tre cal logi when it was the slayer fit of choice and stuck with it. Calm your ****. Open beta crap doesnt fly with me, open beta Minmatar logi myself, 54 million SP later its the first and last suit I have at proto. I'm talking since it was the least popular medium suit in all of dust, when it had the hacking bonus. So no, I don't know nor care about 'the pain' of getting my logi nerfed because it was a slayer fit of choice. Only after all the equipment got nerfed (shall we say rebalanced), and I had to diversify my suits to get the most out of what worked well on just one, my minmatar. Logis still have the light weapon like always and have the worst K/S ratio of all the suits to boot. So your slayer logis fears are pulled straight out of 2013, because it hasn't been like that for a long time. But dont take my word for it, here ya go, have Rattatis data insight, and gain some insight. EDIT: We are starting to derail this thread into 'who's a true logi', we can continue this argument in GD, but lets just leave this thread for feedback on the slots. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 827	Posted - 2015.05.29 07:09:00 - [123] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, here we have the weirdest slot progression in all of DUST 514. I tried once before, was washed away in a tidal wave of tears, but now we must once more unto the breach. ... Amarr Sidearm = Trade Equipment, Low Slot or both? ... Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO I am sitting on a community proposal as well, that I will factor in with your direct forum feedback. H/L Slot Progression Proposal: Good. This form has been advocated for a long time. EQ Progression: Original - nope. Modified with later posts of 3/3/4, better. Max/Max/Max - best. A few points to address with this. EQ progression should be removed in my opinion. 1. Additional class/role/race bonus only accessible at ADV or Pro levels. Must a scout work up to Proto to get their second slot for EQ? No. Neither should a logi. Scouts have a second EQ that was created for the class in order to fit a cloak, and not be forced to fit a cloak OR something else. It was given to allow them to jump into their role, from the outset. It is not something that they must wait to use only at proto, that would make the Proto Scout the only real useful scout to use as it would be the only one to use a cloak and RE's or Uplinks, etc. Is a heavy forced to wait until Proto level to finally equip their Heavy weapon? No. Neither should a logi wait. Wouldn't this be a kick? That only the Proto level of Heavies could equip the Heavy weapons, and until then it was just light weapons. No, of course not. Leaving the draw of the class, even its utility, only accessible a the most expensive level in terms of ISK and in terms of grinding for SP seems obviously ridiculous that you would only finally fall into the role at the ultimate end of progression. Never having been able to fire a forge gun or HMG until it was too costly to have fun with. It does sound like a bogus idea - and you are right - but this same idea was the basis for the Amarr Logi sidearm years ago. Only available at Proto. Fortunately the DEVS caught on that it was a failure as an idea that the draw of a particular suit would only be open at the last levels of play. They brought the sidearm to the STD and ADV levels of the logi realizing that keeping the draw of a class/role/race dropsuit until the proto level is dumb. And here we have the discussion about the EQ count of the Logi. THE DRAW OF THE CLASS. The only reason to be a logi is the equipment. To bring pain or support. But the class should not be forced to wait until the proto level to be moderately useful (use all EQ slots). It should not need to wait for any leveling to achieve the use of its basic class identity assets. Unless the Commando should also wait until proto before equipping a second light weapon... Yeah, I think not. Equipment defines the class. Make it that way, Maxed from the start. All other suits have only progressed in H/L Module count - as the logi should. One reason I feel we haven't pushed on this more is that the idea of Slot flattening solved all these issues - but if we must talk lets get it all out there. 2. "EQ per logi" AKA "EQ and Amarr Sidearms" We can't talk about one without talking about the other. So I will try to address both. For now put Amarr on the sidelines. A logi is equipment. 4 EQ. It is draw of the class. The only reason. Sucky stats for EQ and the possibility to play a class that can help others and doesn't have to focus on being a slayer in the classic FPS twitch shooter fashion - which is why it is hard for many to understand. It should have 4 EQ. Running with just one weapon is challenging and very limiting when faced with so many match variables. I play every logi as i have invested in each to try and advise others and analyze the benefits and defects of one logi to another. With only one weapon available make a logi ill prepared to fight most battles. At one moment I need a LR and at the next I need a MD and then a CR or a SCR. A sidearm with any LW combination immediately makes any battle situation more comfortable. and without it I am forced to stay further from combat, stay with a team or find other ways to support until my weapon is viable again. The price to be a logi is high, and it is paid. Lower stats, 1 weapon limitation is good when FPS slaying is not on the table. It also ensures that a Logi cannot out perform an assault statwise. That being said the Amarr Logi breaks that line in allowing for more combat situations while being gimped in terms of stats and equipment. Compared to an assault it sucks. In direct comparison to other logis it will under perform because it is limited equipment. Like the Minmatar that does't follow the 5/3 slot layouts of the other H/L slot counts the Amarr doesn't follow the rule of 'no sidearms for logis'. But does it step on the toes of Assault players when it can't compete statwise? Is it just too close? I don't see it. At least certainly not currently. When it costs a module and an EQ slot to be this way. I think it is fine for the SideArm to cost 1EQ. It will still never outperform an Assault. It can't out perform a 4 EQ Logi. It can maintain medium Module parity while still offering variety. That said, No Class/Race/Role should be the King of Everything. If the AMARR Sidearm must go - so be it. Lets get balanced one way or another, and the logis be fully defined without an outlier. - It's like one Sentinel having a grenade slot and no EQ slot... or and Assault with 2EQ and no sidearm. IFF that could be a thing then Amarr is fine. If not, it needs to go. 3. Why 7? Why not 9? Remember that Assaults were brought up to Logis in terms of H/L modules, not the other way around. Why not just have more? Especially if we are just throwing hopes around :) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
jade gamester Vengeance Unbound RUST415 314	Posted - 2015.05.29 07:35:00 - [124] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Can't you give like distinct buffs on the suits for the selected weapons? And then nerf for the other weapons on the skills of the suit? I'd be very careful with this. You don't commandos to sink lower Will the real vu please stand up o7
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.29 08:48:00 - [125] - Quote Support/utility weapon slot U designation on fitting screen Can fit: Side Arm Light weapon (x% penalty to fitting) Utility weapons CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 09:16:00 - [126] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. lol Rattati stop derailing your own thread ______________________________________________________________ That said, let me add my own feedback other than what I've already offered in my separate thread. Here are the biggest issues that need fixing: -Gallente logi needs more slots desperately. 0/2 at standard is the worst of any logi. -The jump from 3/2 to 5/4 on Caldari is silly -Caldari logi's fitting space needs a rework; more cpu, less pg -The progression of 3/3 to 3/4 on Amarr was originally designed with the sidearm at proto only, and PRO could use another slot ___________________________________________________________________ Now to reply directly to your thread: CCP Rattati wrote: PG/CPU will certainly be normalized, for poor Calogi. I suspect it was being punished for old sins, that's the only rational reason I see for the capacity difference. Spot on. The best course of action is to apply the same ratios of CPU/PG that Assaults have compared to the standardized 390/78 that we have currently. Caldari should have the most CPU, and Amarr the most PG CCP Rattati wrote: Amarr Sidearm = Trade Equipment, Low Slot or both? Caldari Extra High Slot = Trade Equipment, Light weapon down grade to Sidearm, or both -The Amarr should stay unique in comparison to the Gallente and only have 3 equipment slots. Amarr logi should not have less low slots than gallente. -Caldari has an extra LOW slot, not a high slot. Standardize both medium frames. Caldari Assault and Logi should both have a 5/3 slot layout -IMO, you should give the Caldari Logi the 4th equipment slot. CCP Rattati wrote: Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO -If we only have 2 equipment at standard, and we sacrifice an equipment slot for a sidearm at all tiers for Amarr, standard Amarr logi only has 1 equipment slot. 3 equipment at standard is mandatory to account for this...even if it isn't proper progression -Normalized progression is absolutely what we want, based on the the Assault progression. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 09:17:00 - [127] - Quote Can we get a Light Suit with 2 Utility slots (or 1 Light and 1 Utility)?
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:27:00 - [128] - Quote I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. Where previously the amarr logi could only carry 2 - 3 uplinks in a single equipment slot and could only have that many (of one type) active without suit swaps or doubling up on the same piece of equipment (something no one did), it lead to a lot of backtracking to supply depots when an uplink got destroyed as well as a lot of suit swapping to maximize the number of uplinks one could have out. Now you can carry 4-6 uplinks per equipment slot at any given time and having an uplink get destroyed isn't as big of a deal in regards to backtracking as it was previously - you just set out a new piece of equipment. Nor does the amarr logi have to constantly wander as far away from its squad to continually deploy new uplinks and swap suits as it did previously. The crux of the old arguments for the amarr packing a sidearm now falls flat in light of the big (and largely positive) changes to equipment. It's time for the amarr logi to become 'standardized' and give up that sidearm slot in exchange for an equipment (which I'm sure that plenty of amarr logi's would find incredibly more useful). All logi's should have 8 slots, a grenade, a light weapon, NO SIDEARM and four equipment slots. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:29:00 - [129] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Support/utility weapon slot U designation on fitting screen Can fit: Side Arm Light weapon (x% penalty to fitting) Utility weapons IWS. No. Jesus christ no. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:08:00 - [130] - Quote Just going to echo what most seem to be on board with: All Logis 4 Equipment slots 1 Light Weapon slot 0 Sidearm slot 1 Grenade slot Edit: The extra low and missing equipment slot on the Caldari Logistics coupled with the missing low and missing equipment slot on the Amarr Logistics and the Sidearm on the Amarr Logistics are design (flaws) relics from a different era. They are inconsistent with not only the Logistics role but also inconsistent with the layout for dropsuit roles in general. The gap between the Logistics Suits and the Assault Suits can be bridged (not only for 1 race but for all of them) by giving the Medium Frames a 2nd Equipment Slot.

Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 390	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:12:00 - [131] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Al the destroyer wrote: It don't matter what gun I use lol I use an exile in PC brah so I'll say what I want when I want got it and like I said I'm not for sidearm only logi read my responses again I just don't want equipment spammer logi slayers LIKE YOU! Ruining it for the rest of us! Anyone else use the old Callogi for a logi before the CPU Nerf? If you don't know what I'm talking about you don't know the pain I've went through because of people like you! So go ahead say what you want. OPEN BETA LOGI MYSELF Okay hardcore dudebrah, you use an exile in PC. Here's a cookie. So you used tre cal logi when it was the slayer fit of choice and stuck with it. Calm your ****. Open beta crap doesnt fly with me, open beta Minmatar logi myself, 54 million SP later its the first and last suit I have at proto. I'm talking since it was the least popular medium suit in all of dust, when it had the hacking bonus. So no, I don't know nor care about 'the pain' of getting my logi nerfed because it was a slayer fit of choice. Only after all the equipment got nerfed (shall we say rebalanced), and I had to diversify my suits to get the most out of what worked well on just one, my minmatar. Logis still have the light weapon like always and have the worst K/S ratio of all the suits to boot. So your slayer logis fears are pulled straight out of 2013, because it hasn't been like that for a long time. But dont take my word for it, here ya go, have Rattatis data insight, and gain some insight. EDIT: We are starting to derail this thread into 'who's a true logi', we can continue this argument in GD, but lets just leave this thread for feedback on the slots. So you don't know what I'm talking about. I used the callogi as a logi from the first day it came out. It was a fabulous suit in fact it was so good everyone in PC started using it to slay. I don't care if people used it to slay that's there choice, but it got hit with the Nerf hammer so hard it quickly became the worst suit in the game. I don't want to re-live it. Im willing to give up killing power for my logis to run faster and have more HP. If we're going to change it that's the direction I would like to see it go. As slot progression goes I think the 4/4/4 at proto should be good for all amarr and cal to lose 1 equipment slot for sidearm is fine. I like Sabers new idea of % fitting cost for light weapon that's the best I've heard so far. That way guys like me could run a sidearm and get full fitting with better speed and HP. Guys like you would have to trade some fitting to run a light weapon. I don't like the idea of any logi suit being less than 3 equipment slots hell a basic scout has 2. The logi suit all need some more HP and speed so we can hang in the fight. Maybe give the assault suit 2 equipment slots I don't know slayer logi is not really a problem now but we can't keep up with the fight even using a lesser weapon because we are too slow to begin with. The basic gal and amarr logi suits are terrible and need to be fixed I'm not sure how to do that with 3 equipment slot but all basic logi suits need 3 to do the job. Maybe a utility slot for all logi suits where a sidearm would go with flat slot progression use it for equip if you want or put a sidearm with a fitting cost 2/2/2 for basic 3/2/3 for adv 4/3/4 reduction all would have the utility slot and a % fitting reduction cost if a light weapon is used, if a side arm is used another fitting reduction
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:14:00 - [132] - Quote Al the destroyer wrote: So you don't know what I'm talking about. I used the callogi as a logi from the first day it came out. It was a fabulous suit in fact it was so good everyone in PC started using it to slay. I don't care if people used it to slay that's there choice, but it got hit with the Nerf hammer so hard it quickly became the worst suit in the game. I don't want to re-live it. Im willing to give up killing power for my logis to run faster and have more HP. If we're going to change it that's the direction I would like to see it go. As slot progression goes I think the 4/4/4 at proto should be good for all amarr and cal to lose 1 equipment slot for sidearm is fine. I like Sabers new idea of % fitting cost for light weapon that's the best I've heard so far. That way guys like me could run a sidearm and get full fitting with better speed and HP. Guys like you would have to trade some fitting to run a light weapon. I don't like the idea of any logi suit being less than 3 equipment slots hell a basic scout has 2. The logi suit all need some more HP and speed so we can hang in the fight. Maybe give the assault suit 2 equipment slots I don't know slayer logi is not really a problem now but we can't keep up with the fight even using a lesser weapon because we are too slow to begin with. The basic gal and amarr logi suits are terrible and need to be fixed I'm not sure how to do that with 3 equipment slot but all basic logi suits need 3 to do the job. Maybe a utility slot for all logi suits where a sidearm would go with flat slot progression use it for equip if you want or put a sidearm with a fitting cost 2/2/2 for basic 3/2/3 for adv 4/3/4 reduction all would have the utility slot and a % fitting reduction cost if a light weapon is used, if a side arm is used another fitting reduction Heres where we agree: - Cal Logi and Gal logi need a normalized slot layout: When the tieracide comes, it wont be an issue, bu i've always found the std logi slot count shocking. - Logis need more speed: Certainly and we are going to get it, according to this thread On the fence: -Logis need more HP: Could it more usefull, certainly wont turn it down. But you can stack a great deal of eHP on every logi, except the minmatar one at proto. I can squueze about 800+ ehp on my adv cal logi. between 700 - 500 on the others. Leave the HP to the assaults. They are more combat oriented and need it more than logis do. Disagree: Utility weapons slot: Like i stated earlier, those are all niche weapons for other specialzed suits. Logis need general purpose weapons. The rifles fufill that role already. If you, or the devs provide evidence that light weapon logis were getting out of hand, like the light weapon heavies, or were getting the most kills, I'd be with you. Yet because there is no evidence to support logis have been abusing light weapons, this is trying to fix what isn't broken. Adding a utitility slot with a sidearm or a gimped light weapon, it just make logis a poor mans commando. I understand your points, and i do empathize with a lot of them, despite my harsh language in earlier posts. Believe me, i fly a lot, so i know whats its like to have something nerfed to hell because people gamed the system. #hotfixdelta #RIPderpship # never forget Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 390	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:15:00 - [133] - Quote Haerr wrote: Just going to echo what most seem to be on board with: All Logis 4 Equipment slots 1 Light Weapon slot 0 Sidearm slot 1 Grenade slot Edit: The extra low and missing equipment slot on the Caldari Logistics coupled with the missing low and missing equipment slot on the Amarr Logistics and the Sidearm on the Amarr Logistics are design (flaws) relics from a different era. They are inconsistent with not only the Logistics role but also inconsistent with the layout for dropsuit roles in general. The gap between the Logistics Suits and the Assault Suits can be bridged (not only for 1 race but for all of them) by giving the Medium Frames a 2nd Equipment Slot. If there is a flat progression on slots CPU and pg of all suits needs to be reworked as well
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:24:00 - [134] - Quote Wait what? Utility slot for swarm launchers? Are you insane and want to cause a never ending pain for every vehicle user in the game? If you do that then every twatt on the game will at least run a basic swarm launcher. So as soon a tank pops up they switch to swarms and kill him within 5 secs. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:40:00 - [135] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Something something 'Specialist' tag Dust/Eve transfers
DiablosMajora 174	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:55:00 - [136] - Quote While we're on the topic of Logis, would it be too much to ask if a revamp/fix/polish of the logi playstyle overall is in the works? I'm talking about things like: used/remaining bandwidth indication on screen, indication of personal/squad equipment deployed (ie color coded), and equipment modules changed up to fit different roles/playstyles (like solo, squad, or team benefiting equipments). That is all Prepare your angus
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 933	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:55:00 - [137] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. Where previously the amarr logi could only carry 2 - 3 uplinks in a single equipment slot and could only have that many (of one type) active without suit swaps or doubling up on the same piece of equipment (something no one did), it lead to a lot of backtracking to supply depots when an uplink got destroyed as well as a lot of suit swapping to maximize the number of uplinks one could have out. Now you can carry 4-6 uplinks per equipment slot at any given time and having an uplink get destroyed isn't as big of a deal in regards to backtracking as it was previously - you just set out a new piece of equipment. Nor does the amarr logi have to constantly wander as far away from its squad to continually deploy new uplinks and swap suits as it did previously. Emphasis is really placed on having higher quality uplinks more often than having one of every uplink out. The crux of the old arguments for the amarr packing a sidearm now falls flat in light of the big (and largely positive) changes to equipment. It's time for the amarr logi to become 'standardized' and give up that sidearm slot in exchange for an equipment (which I'm sure that plenty of amarr logi's would find incredibly more useful). Previous concerns in regards to deployable equipment have been very meaningfully addressed by a number of changes that rattati has made. With the higher bandwidth cap present on amarr logi's it would actually be greatly to the benefit of amarr logi's to trade that sidearm for a fourth equipment (two sets of different uplinks while still carrying injector & rep tool? options for proxy mines or nanohives or scanners? yes please!). All logi's should have 8 slots, a grenade, a light weapon, NO SIDEARM and four equipment slots. I can live with this. +1
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 832	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:24:00 - [138] - Quote Weapon range is an extremely important factor. A 25% reduction in weapons range on a logi would stop the slayer logi FoTM. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 390	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:26:00 - [139] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. Where previously the amarr logi could only carry 2 - 3 uplinks in a single equipment slot and could only have that many (of one type) active without suit swaps or doubling up on the same piece of equipment (something no one did), it lead to a lot of backtracking to supply depots when an uplink got destroyed as well as a lot of suit swapping to maximize the number of uplinks one could have out. Now you can carry 4-6 uplinks per equipment slot at any given time and having an uplink get destroyed isn't as big of a deal in regards to backtracking as it was previously - you just set out a new piece of equipment. Nor does the amarr logi have to constantly wander as far away from its squad to continually deploy new uplinks and swap suits as it did previously. Emphasis is really placed on having higher quality uplinks more often than having one of every uplink out. The crux of the old arguments for the amarr packing a sidearm now falls flat in light of the big (and largely positive) changes to equipment. It's time for the amarr logi to become 'standardized' and give up that sidearm slot in exchange for an equipment (which I'm sure that plenty of amarr logi's would find incredibly more useful). Previous concerns in regards to deployable equipment have been very meaningfully addressed by a number of changes that rattati has made. With the higher bandwidth cap present on amarr logi's it would actually be greatly to the benefit of amarr logi's to trade that sidearm for a fourth equipment (two sets of different uplinks while still carrying injector & rep tool? options for proxy mines or nanohives or scanners? yes please!). All logi's should have 8 slots, a grenade, a light weapon, NO SIDEARM and four equipment slots. I can live with this. +1 I could live with this also as long as the callogi get a much needed CPU buff and amarr gets a pg buff to bring them in line with the rest. I would miss my SL on the amarr but I could live with it.
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 390	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:32:00 - [140] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Weapon range is an extremely important factor. A 25% reduction in weapons range on a logi would stop the slayer logi FoTM. I'm not sure this would be the right direction to go but I see where you're coming from.

Balistyc Farshot OUTCAST MERCS General Tso's Alliance 192	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:35:00 - [141] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... If I may weigh in here sir, Grenades are traditionally a frontline attack mode issued to personnel involved in breaching, patrolling and active defense. They are not normally issued among combat engineers, medics and logistics crews under most circumstances. Battle rifles and sidearms are more common for personal defense when tasked to frontline units. To be honest grenades are more useful to assaults and scouts than to logis and sentinels. Machinegun teams tend to be more focused on feeding the bullet devourer. But they still get issued them. Just to counter point this a bit. I am driving more towards weapons like placed explosives than grenades, but in games, grenades represent the explosive elements because environmental effects of explosives are so hard to linearly code. BTW - In the army my explosives engineer always carried several different types of grenades and would plant our demolitions because he had the certifications. The army is big on the guy who is trained using the equipment while the rest of the grunts watch his back. Just like the communications specialist had all the different smoke grenades. With the team chat gone, we need to really start leveraging the squad finder!
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 832	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:51:00 - [142] - Quote Al the destroyer wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Weapon range is an extremely important factor. A 25% reduction in weapons range on a logi would stop the slayer logi FoTM. I'm not sure this would be the right direction to go but I see where you're coming from. With buffed speed, eHP, fittings, and a sidearm I'll be a part of the hoards of slayer logis. I asked myself what I would need to keep me in a proper Slayer Assault, with it's paltry reload bonus, and the answer is a disincentive to use light weapons on a logi. I would also favor the sidearm only option if it came with some sort of buff...like dual sidearms and a sidearm range bonus. A Scrambler Pistol and a Bolt Pistol combo would be fun. I don't do that on the Assault any more because of the range handicap vs Light Weapons. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 390	Posted - 2015.05.29 15:07:00 - [143] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Al the destroyer wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Weapon range is an extremely important factor. A 25% reduction in weapons range on a logi would stop the slayer logi FoTM. I'm not sure this would be the right direction to go but I see where you're coming from. With buffed speed, eHP, fittings, and a sidearm I'll be a part of the hoards of slayer logis. I asked myself what I would need to keep me in a proper Slayer Assault, with it's paltry reload bonus, and the answer is a disincentive to use light weapons on a logi. I would also favor the sidearm only option if it came with some sort of buff...like dual sidearms and a sidearm range bonus. A Scrambler Pistol and a Bolt Pistol combo would be fun. I don't do that on the Assault any more because of the range handicap vs Light Weapons. I'm just wondering if there is an easier way to do than range maybe damage I would be fine with range I just not sure if changing weapons profiles would induce lag or cause anymore framrate issues. BTW lol I know you'd run that slayer logi with a smile on your face lol
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 15:18:00 - [144] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows This would be a nerf to most Logis would it not? Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Giving Assault an advantage, since total slots on logi are 2 more at proto. Well as a personal opinion, i think the differentiation between the roles, or that advantage, should be tied to secondary attributes (namely bonuses and things like a Scout's Cloak or a Commando's two weapons) rather than the defensive slots themselves. I think perhaps what is truly lacking here is "What can the Assault do that a Logistics suit will never be able to do?" and that should really be the primary focus here when trying to differentiate the two in ways the other cannot emulate. I mean if you think about it, the Assault is really the only specialty suit that doesn't have it's own gimick. Sentinels = Heavy Weapon, Commando = 2 Light Weapons, Scouts = Cloaks, Logis = Equipment. If we want to make the Assaults shine, they need to have something special that no other suit can fit/replicate. I have always felt that Assaults should have a damage bonus. My thinking is that a rifle should be more effective in the hands of a combat class such as Assault and Commando than in a support class such as Logistics. Not enough of a Damage bonus to make the logi infective in comparison, just a small (10% at level 5) to make the combat classes better at combat. Scouts and Sentinels don't need damage bonuses, because they use high damage weapons (Nova Knife, Shotgun, HMG, Forge Gun). Having Scouts or Sentinels do less damage than Assaults or Commandos using rifles is fine, because those classes are not designed for using rifles. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 15:34:00 - [145] - Quote Al the destroyer wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Weapon range is an extremely important factor. A 25% reduction in weapons range on a logi would stop the slayer logi FoTM. I'm not sure this would be the right direction to go but I see where you're coming from. Its the wrong way to go. The pg/cpu reduction coupled with the eq fitting bonuses should limit the pure slaying fittings enough to discourage their use by fotm slayers. Actual slayers, slayer players not slayerfit players, will effectively slay in any fit regardless. Fotm slayers however will look elsewhere if the final fit potential for slaying isn't relatively "the best". And that happens inside the cpu/pg/eq prioritized fitting. Worst-case scenario, should this proposed solution (limit logi damage/range) become absolutely neccessary the better option would still be to not do it but instead to add a basic damage mod to the Assault profile, 3 or 4% built in. Doesn't gimp us and incentivises the Assault further for explicit slaying use. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 15:47:00 - [146] - Quote Al the Destroyer wrote: Maybe a ... slot for all logi suits where a sidearm would go with flat slot progression use it for equip if you want or put a sidearm ... Best compromise so far, 1 of the regular eq slots is variable and will accomodate either an equipment OR a sidearm. Make it standard for ALL the logis. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:05:00 - [147] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Al the destroyer wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Weapon range is an extremely important factor. A 25% reduction in weapons range on a logi would stop the slayer logi FoTM. I'm not sure this would be the right direction to go but I see where you're coming from. Its the wrong way to go. The pg/cpu reduction coupled with the eq fitting bonuses should limit the pure slaying fittings enough to discourage their use by fotm slayers. Actual slayers, slayer players not slayerfit players, will effectively slay in any fit regardless. Fotm slayers however will look elsewhere if the final fit potential for slaying isn't relatively "the best". And that happens inside the cpu/pg/eq prioritized fitting. Worst-case scenario, should this proposed solution (limit logi damage/range) become absolutely neccessary the better option would still be to not do it but instead to add a basic damage mod to the Assault profile, 3 or 4% built in. Doesn't gimp us and incentivises the Assault further for explicit slaying use. To add to this, if Assault can do 10% more damage than a Logi, the Logi can compensate somewhat by stacking damage mods, but will have to make some sacrifices to do so. It makes just enough difference for the min/maxer's to chose Assault for their slayer fits, while not penalizing people who want to play the Logi support roll too drastically. A range reduction though would mean that Logi cannot compete with Assault at all in certain tactical situations. That in my opinion is too harsh. We want Assault to be good at their intended purpose, which is slaying. But we don't want Logi to be bad at slaying, just not quite as good as Assaults. Logi are specialists, not pacifists. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:36:00 - [148] - Quote "Specialists not Pacifists" A-frikin-men. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 834	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:38:00 - [149] - Quote Well, Rattati was looking for a way to discourage Light Rifles. If you gimp the range on the rifiles, you would see a lot more support weapons. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:49:00 - [150] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Well, Rattati was looking for a way to discourage Light Rifles. If you gimp the range on the rifiles, you would see a lot more support weapons. Still not the way to go... I still firmly believe that Logistics should have higher regen with the HP values they currently have. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja

Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 17:39:00 - [151] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: All logi's should have 8 [module] slots, a grenade, a light weapon, NO SIDEARM and four equipment slots. Amen. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 837	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:08:00 - [152] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Well, Rattati was looking for a way to discourage Light Rifles. If you gimp the range on the rifiles, you would see a lot more support weapons. Still not the way to go... I still firmly believe that Logistics should have higher regen with the HP values they currently have. I agree about the defensive power. I just think they need an offensive tradeoff. The current Assault bonuses are passable, but the new logi slots + speed are looking pretty exciting. I could carry REs AND Nanohives...for more REs lol. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:11:00 - [153] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Well, Rattati was looking for a way to discourage Light Rifles. If you gimp the range on the rifiles, you would see a lot more support weapons. Still not the way to go... I still firmly believe that Logistics should have higher regen with the HP values they currently have. I agree about the defensive power. I just think they need an offensive tradeoff. The current Assault bonuses are passable, but the new logi slots + speed are looking pretty exciting. I could carry REs AND Nanohives...for more REs lol. There shouldn't be a trade off in that manner. Assaults should get some bonus for, you know, assaulting. Maybe even TWO grenade slots. Edit: Plus they have higher base HP to fit HP modules or biotics. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:11:00 - [154] - Quote I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles When you lose small mind you free your life....
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:40:00 - [155] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Can we just make the repair tool it's own weapon type with it's own slot (and a shield type of course) and give it EVE level reps that can out pace multiple sources of incoming PDS? It'd swap a LW slot for that any day. To me the tactical value of real sustainable rep levels and no weapon is vastly superior to the status of having a mediocre weapon selection (but still weapons) and current reps. The issue with the weapons listed above being combined with support play is that they don't currently synergize. MD and LR lend themselves to setting up shop somewhere and providing area denial/zone of control. That action in and of itself is support in many lights no question, but if you're camped in a single (usually high) area you can't support your squad unless you are either A) defending a vital uplink spot, or B) they are camped right along side you. Shotgun is a viable weapon, and I enjoy running it, but I run it on my scout fit (or maybe my Min Assault if the mood strikes me) because most of the time it requires that you have more speed that the opposing forces so you can hit and run/close the distance. Get caught at rifle range with a shotgun and you're dead (even in a tanked Sent) which is fine, that's the shotgun working as intended but it makes it not very viable unless the suit in question has above average move and sprint speeds. Speed aside it becomes more iffy for a support role because it's range and type of engagement is front line not over the shoulder or 'second rank' thus requiring a choice between positioning for possible weapon use or optimal support play. Sniper has the same problems as the MD and LR only magnified due to it's range profile and proper use case. Swarms on a suit with no sidearm is simply asking to die in most cases though having a fit like that in your back pocket only for dedicated AV work is useful, you need to have someone guard you or accept that you will burn the fit. PLC is likely the most viable of all of them, for those who have the skill set to use it, because it can mimic some of the OHK of the Shotgun and the AV of the swarms, plus has enough range to give a bit of area denial, but it is far from an easy weapon to use leaving most players likely better off running an SMG or Blot Pistol for general utility. All of that being said I'm not opposed to the Assault class being more effective with rifles, that actually makes a lot of sense to me, what if the dps of the rifles themselves was pulled back somewhat and the assaults gained an added damage bonus to their racial weapons? CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 839	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:41:00 - [156] - Quote One of the original logi concepts was the trading of firepower for logistical force multiplication. The SMG was slightly OP for a while because it was imagined to be a logistics primary weapon (Similar story for a swarm launcher assault...like some other games.). These days it isn't really practical to use a sidearm as primary anti-infantry weapon, but a proper suit bonus could buff sidearm damage/range and the logi could still retain an unbuffed Light Weapon slot. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 393	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:04:00 - [157] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Can we just make the repair tool it's own weapon type with it's own slot (and a shield type of course) and give it EVE level reps that can out pace multiple sources of incoming PDS? It'd swap a LW slot for that any day. To me the tactical value of real sustainable rep levels and no weapon is vastly superior to the status of having a mediocre weapon selection (but still weapons) and current reps. The issue with the weapons listed above being combined with support play is that they don't currently synergize. MD and LR lend themselves to setting up shop somewhere and providing area denial/zone of control. That action in and of itself is support in many lights no question, but if you're camped in a single (usually high) area you can't support your squad unless you are either A) defending a vital uplink spot, or B) they are camped right along side you. Shotgun is a viable weapon, and I enjoy running it, but I run it on my scout fit (or maybe my Min Assault if the mood strikes me) because most of the time it requires that you have more speed that the opposing forces so you can hit and run/close the distance. Get caught at rifle range with a shotgun and you're dead (even in a tanked Sent) which is fine, that's the shotgun working as intended but it makes it not very viable unless the suit in question has above average move and sprint speeds. Speed aside it becomes more iffy for a support role because it's range and type of engagement is front line not over the shoulder or 'second rank' thus requiring a choice between positioning for possible weapon use or optimal support play. Sniper has the same problems as the MD and LR only magnified due to it's range profile and proper use case. Swarms on a suit with no sidearm is simply asking to die in most cases though having a fit like that in your back pocket only for dedicated AV work is useful, you need to have someone guard you or accept that you will burn the fit. PLC is likely the most viable of all of them, for those who have the skill set to use it, because it can mimic some of the OHK of the Shotgun and the AV of the swarms, plus has enough range to give a bit of area denial, but it is far from an easy weapon to use leaving most players likely better off running an SMG or Blot Pistol for general utility. All of that being said I'm not opposed to the Assault class being more effective with rifles, that actually makes a lot of sense to me, what if the dps of the rifles themselves was pulled back somewhat and the assaults gained an added damage bonus to their racial weapons? I wouldn't take the actual weapons literally more the idea we could argue the weapons later it was the idea of logi specific weapons that I liked
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:21:00 - [158] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Al the destroyer wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Weapon range is an extremely important factor. A 25% reduction in weapons range on a logi would stop the slayer logi FoTM. I'm not sure this would be the right direction to go but I see where you're coming from. With buffed speed, eHP, fittings, and a sidearm I'll be a part of the hoards of slayer logis. I asked myself what I would need to keep me in a proper Slayer Assault, with it's paltry reload bonus, and the answer is a disincentive to use light weapons on a logi. I would also favor the sidearm only option if it came with some sort of buff...like dual sidearms and a sidearm range bonus. A Scrambler Pistol and a Bolt Pistol combo would be fun. I don't do that on the Assault any more because of the range handicap vs Light Weapons. Sidearm only is bad IMO for a number of reasons. Either leave the logi with the ability to use a basic rifle or skip the weapons entirely and let logi be a full on support with no weapons but very potent reps (and add the option to bring shield reps). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:22:00 - [159] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows This would be a nerf to most Logis would it not? Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Giving Assault an advantage, since total slots on logi are 2 more at proto. Well as a personal opinion, i think the differentiation between the roles, or that advantage, should be tied to secondary attributes (namely bonuses and things like a Scout's Cloak or a Commando's two weapons) rather than the defensive slots themselves. I think perhaps what is truly lacking here is "What can the Assault do that a Logistics suit will never be able to do?" and that should really be the primary focus here when trying to differentiate the two in ways the other cannot emulate. I mean if you think about it, the Assault is really the only specialty suit that doesn't have it's own gimick. Sentinels = Heavy Weapon, Commando = 2 Light Weapons, Scouts = Cloaks, Logis = Equipment. If we want to make the Assaults shine, they need to have something special that no other suit can fit/replicate. I have always felt that Assaults should have a damage bonus. My thinking is that a rifle should be more effective in the hands of a combat class such as Assault and Commando than in a support class such as Logistics. Not enough of a Damage bonus to make the logi infective in comparison, just a small (10% at level 5) to make the combat classes better at combat. Scouts and Sentinels don't need damage bonuses, because they use high damage weapons (Nova Knife, Shotgun, HMG, Forge Gun). Having Scouts or Sentinels do less damage than Assaults or Commandos using rifles is fine, because those classes are not designed for using rifles. These guys are making a lot of sense to me. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:27:00 - [160] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Well, Rattati was looking for a way to discourage Light Rifles. If you gimp the range on the rifiles, you would see a lot more support weapons. Still not the way to go... I still firmly believe that Logistics should have higher regen with the HP values they currently have. I agree about the defensive power. I just think they need an offensive tradeoff. The current Assault bonuses are passable, but the new logi slots + speed are looking pretty exciting. I could carry REs AND Nanohives...for more REs lol. New Nanohive mechanic, hive will no longer resupply their owner. Totally spitballing here, actually let's not drag the thread off topic, anyone who's interested in responding to this idea please redirect to the ward. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:31:00 - [161] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 275	Posted - 2015.05.29 21:39:00 - [162] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 21:59:00 - [163] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! The Sidearm only is a nice middle ground between the two extremes of "I can do everything you can do, just better because I also have 3 additional equipment slots" and the "HA HA HA!! Just try to kill any of my teammates since my whole squad is dedicated Logi and we are repping them through everything you can throw at us (including Large Blasters)!!" I truly do not understand why people have such a problem with the role who is intended to be dedicated support being restricted to a Sidearm if any weapon. Another though occurs, reclass Logi Tools (Armor, Shield or potentially even Hybrid) as Equipment and a Sidearm (similar to how Proximity/Remote Explosives are Equipment but you spend SP on them through Weaponry rather than Dropsuit Upgrades) When you lose small mind you free your life....
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 857	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:25:00 - [164] - Quote Cal logi from open Beta. If we are placing "votes" mine goes to standard 8 slots at proto (5H & 3L) for logi if Rattati comes through on the CPU/PG balancing so I am not required to use a CPU module in low slot. I am OK with either 3/3/4 or 3/4/4 on equip (with Amarr getting 2/3/3 + sidearm) and adjusting slots at advanced to match. Amarr should be opposite at Proto (5L & 3H). Gal & Min seem good on slot layout so leave them as is. Hell no to the sidearm only. Why are we going to COMPLETELY gimp an entire role's ability to pew pew in a pew pew game? If you want to do a 5% damage reduction (spitballing the #) to all weapons, I am Ok with it. Make them less effective at killing than Assaults so Assaults are still the favored slayer suit but the logi can still contribute if necessary in a firefight. This SOMEWHAT ties in so I will add it. On the speed/HP Assault/Logi issue; give them the same base speed but give Assaults better stamina but less sprint and Logis better sprint but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:30:00 - [165] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: At least, know what the smart answer is before making sweeping changes. Well, that would be a change. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 275	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:31:00 - [166] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! The Sidearm only is a nice middle ground between the two extremes of "I can do everything you can do, just better because I also have 3 additional equipment slots" and the "HA HA HA!! Just try to kill any of my teammates since my whole squad is dedicated Logi and we are repping them through everything you can throw at us (including Large Blasters)!!" I truly do not understand why people have such a problem with the role who is intended to be dedicated support being restricted to a Sidearm if any weapon. Another though occurs, reclass Logi Tools (Armor, Shield or potentially even Hybrid) as Equipment and a Sidearm (similar to how Proximity/Remote Explosives are Equipment but you spend SP on them through Weaponry rather than Dropsuit Upgrades) Simple. because a Sidearm is insufficient for suppression of the enemy. Since a logi is required to run out and use their needle, they need strong enough "Teeth" to make the enemies think twice about getting out of cover to engage them. Many FPSes with an Incapacitated-Revive dynamic equip the medic class or style with Light Machine Guns specifically for this reason (Focusing on a general support role as well), while DUST has no real equivalent, the closest being the "Assault Rifle" class of weapons. Additionally, an issue with specifically the Drop Uplinks, is that the logi needs to be able to defend them-self while separate from the squad while placing them, and also be able to defend their uplinks (and nanohives for that matter) once deployed (although this isn't as much of an issue given the expanded equipment count...and tbh the Drop Uplink always seemed like something a Scout Suit should have a bonus to). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 830	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:12:00 - [167] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! The Sidearm only is a nice middle ground between the two extremes of "I can do everything you can do, just better because I also have 3 additional equipment slots" and the "HA HA HA!! Just try to kill any of my teammates since my whole squad is dedicated Logi and we are repping them through everything you can throw at us (including Large Blasters)!!" I truly do not understand why people have such a problem with the role who is intended to be dedicated support being restricted to a Sidearm if any weapon. Another though occurs, reclass Logi Tools (Armor, Shield or potentially even Hybrid) as Equipment and a Sidearm (similar to how Proximity/Remote Explosives are Equipment but you spend SP on them through Weaponry rather than Dropsuit Upgrades) Simple. because a Sidearm is insufficient for suppression of the enemy. Since a logi is required to run out and use their needle, they need strong enough "Teeth" to make the enemies think twice about getting out of cover to engage them. Many FPSes with an Incapacitated-Revive dynamic equip the medic class or style with Light Machine Guns specifically for this reason (Focusing on a general support role as well), while DUST has no real equivalent, the closest being the "Assault Rifle" class of weapons. Additionally, an issue with specifically the Drop Uplinks, is that the logi needs to be able to defend them-self while separate from the squad while placing them, and also be able to defend their uplinks (and nanohives for that matter) once deployed (although this isn't as much of an issue given the expanded equipment count...and tbh the Drop Uplink always seemed like something a Scout Suit should have a bonus to). ^ Yep. One of the 5R's of being a logi is Re-enforce. After battling the logi must survive to pick up team mates or hold them at bay until the ranks are refilled. Logis are not there to "kill better" but to have an equal chance is fair. Being a Logi is different from being a logibro. Logibro's are dedicated medic style players. A logi simply carries equipment. That may be for AV or tear mining. Using equipment is the role. Just as other classes have roles that they fill with the likes of Heavy Weapons or 2 light weapons, but in every class the weapons will function the same or better depending on the class. Logis deserve to be equipment focused and be able to use light weapons at their base values like every other class. Is it not enough that all the equipment slots must be filled? An added cost for the class overall that will forcibly reduce fitting capacity, regardless of CPU/PG changes. That means that even the logi that just wants to ka-pow-pow-in-the-facey-face every red dot still cant have a fitting that is on par with an Assault... ever. So, the player must choose lower stats and using equipment to carry out their operation of mayhem or choose a role that may be more suited to their play style. Light weapons remain, and the only weapon for a Logi. What many are speaking to here is the need for the Assault class to have a better bonus or further role definition. I agree that it needs attention. But this is not the thread for that. Bonus realignment comes after slot progression. This thread is for the slot progression of the logistics class. While comparing this class to others brings new ideas and insightful observations many expressions here lack... well its just trolling. Unless we want to consider allowing them to use Heavy weapons? I'd be game for that too, hell let the scouts in on it as well, but the assaults only get to use rifles, fair enough? Seriously, a sidearms as the only weapon for a logi is simply an overkill for the already poor stats of the logi. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:13:00 - [168] - Quote To maximize player freedom and reward/encourage logis to be logis: Make the Logi equipment efficacy bonus(e.g. Cross's) scale with # of equipment slots filled. 1 eq = 20%, 2 eq = 40%, 3 eq = 60%, 4 eq = 100% of efficacy bonus. Furthermore make the 4th equipment slot dual purpose: Equipment or sidearm. A logi choosing to run a sidearm would then be a lesser logi that their 4 equipment brothers, but still a better logi than any other suit. Give logis only moderate PG/CPU but hefty fitting bonuses for equipment. Means a mix of proto/adv modules for a proto logi. Running a proto light weapon, for example, would effectively force a weakened tank/ewar/mobility. 4/4/4 slot layout with light weapon & grenades. High walk/slower sprint multiplier/moderate strafe. PSN: RationalSpark
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 830	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:29:00 - [169] - Quote To the Slot layout of the Caldari and what to do. Rattati, you are correct that the The Cal Logi indeed suffers from an offense that has long been corrected. Over-corrected in fact. And I even have trouble building a survivable build without bricking it to hell. Poor stamina, poor shield stats, little armor stats and reps means that once it takes damage - if it survives - it is nearly out of the game. The time for repairs takes enough of a toll that it cannot be a front-line logi and stay with the team, it can't stand and deliver or even stand with its team mates. It sounds great that maybe it could drop its hives in pockets to help teammates and then run away... but in reality it becomes a prime target to extinguish and it can hardly sprint the distance to get behind cover. My builds are often similar to the APEX builds, being shield intensive, and the 4th slot for either CPU, Armor, or another regulator. As to what to do with it I see it as another logi with 4EQ. But with the hive bonus affecting all players they are rarely in short supply... so bonuses will be addressed at another time. Back on task. The 4th EQ slot will bring it in line with the others but it still suffers; finding a logibro role and it being survivable is difficult. If you ultimately reach the decision that this logi should have a sidearm like the Amarr I don't believe that to be bad thing, but it also role bleeds a little - even though right now it sounds better simply because it needs something more. But what it maybe what it needs is just more of its role definition, and a 4th EQ puts it there. How that will work out will be fun to see, but I think it should still just be a regular logi with 5/3/4 and a LW and Grenade. Bring it into balance... Unless we balance the logi's to its 9 slots :)... but that may be asking too much. (and to many tears on the forums shorts out the servers) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:33:00 - [170] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Easy fix. Duplicate those weapons, and reassign them as sidearms. Increase fitting cost of these new "support" weapons by 100% and then add a role bonus to reduction to fitting cost of those weapons. Give logis one sidearm slot only. Now you can make assaults and logis equal in mobility and defensive without logis becoming slayers. EDIT: this has been already with the black eagle assault rifles.

The Eristic Art.of.Death 998	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:50:00 - [171] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. It's not necessarily about keeping the links themselves up, it's keeping BONUSED links up. Were the Amarr's bonus retained until you spawned (or swapped to) a different suit, your point might be more accurate, but as is, the bonus is lost on death, so defending yourself is defending your links. I'd ultimately be fine with no sidearms and slot equalization on all four, but there is most definitely still defensive value in the sidearm on the Amarr (and would be on the Cal, too, though your team isn't suddenly stuck with long, limited spawns when the Cal goes down, just less ammo - Cal could stand a bonus to needles or something while we're at it). Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:02:00 - [172] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! Actually, as I've stated elsewhere, it does sound improper for a FPS lobby shooter but it is more proper than the "sidearm method" because at least there is still a tactical trade-off. You still cannot lock more targets than your rep tool allows (two in some cases at proto) and you yourself are still not being repped, on top of which no amount of reps prevents getting Alpha'ed to death (and with "gotcha" tactics being so common in Dust that's a fairly common risk). If we're talking a real 'weaponless logi' in dust would we translate literal numbers directly from EVE? Of course not. But is a weaponless logi which follows in the conceptual footsteps of the EVE logi more tactically valid and viable than the deeply unfortunate "sidearm only method", yes it is every single day of the week. Being able to defend ones self with some modicum of effectiveness is great, but failing that (and let's be clear here, for most players on average having only a single side arm most certainly is failing that) having zero ability to defend ones self in exchange for being a better (if now fully dependent) support squad member is a substantially superior iteration. Making the role 'jack of all trades, mediocre at all' isn't useful or healthy role definition. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:21:00 - [173] - Quote I have a hard time believing the up link story.... Most uplinks I kill have no logis around them. Most uplinks I get killed at have no logis near them. How about this for a challenge? Remove ALL weapon and grenade slots. Balance them as they are without any consideration for any weapons in mind as they're not a weapon class to begin with. Then decide which things to add back for the offensive kits. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:57:00 - [174] - Quote While doing the brainwork here, please remember: Having things even and progressions logical etc is nice. Bear in mind that sometimes that is not enough; sometimes meta dictates that sometimes that does not bring equal nor balanced results. A practical example which is also from Dust's history: Even with even total slot counts, A suit with many high slots is more powerful if the shield tanking meta is stronger (example: summer 2013) A suit with more low slots is more powerful if armor tanking meta is prevalent (example winter 2013-2014 onward) Sure mathematics and simple progressions give good base to start from. We just can't expect them to be readily balanced results. Looking at both sides of the coin. Even Aurum one.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 04:31:00 - [175] - Quote Kero's first set of comments: While Eq slots are the very heart of logis, if A-logi's role is to be more combatty, it is okay to sacrifice one Eq slot for the sidearm While the cald-logi was desiged in chromosome, it had extra fitting slot for no apparent reason. It has carried over, even through anti-slayer logi nerfs for some reason. Cald-logis extra slot can be taken away with no reimbursement for it. BUT the cald-logi nevertheless needs some love for it's rather lacking role bonus. Any suit with just sidearm slot is in danger of being an unused gimmick. For that sacrifice there would have to be some truly awesome bonus. An already weak caldari logi should not be made a sidearm only suit. ESPECIALLY with only one weapon slot... The idea to make basic (non-specialized) suits have 2 Eq slots is good. It is okay to have different number of Eq slots (3/4) Scouts could do with one Eq slot I'm talking against my own playstyle here, but it really makes sense for logis to lose Grenade slot and leave it to suits more inclined to breaching places. Especially, as logis are the ones most likely to be able to supply their own spam hives. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:09:00 - [176] - Quote Im amazed people are still trying to push for the Sidearm only Logi. Because "It's Support"? Isn't a Scout supposed to be Stealth/EWAR? So by a similar logic would they not be Sidearm Only too? How about we stop trying to strip away essentials from suits and instead focus on giving Assaults something unique that Logis cant replicate? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:29:00 - [177] - Quote The Eristic wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. It's not necessarily about keeping the links themselves up, it's keeping BONUSED links up. Were the Amarr's bonus retained until you spawned (or swapped to) a different suit, your point might be more accurate, but as is, the bonus is lost on death, so defending yourself is defending your links. I'd ultimately be fine with no sidearms and slot equalization on all four, but there is most definitely still defensive value in the sidearm on the Amarr (and would be on the Cal, too, though your team isn't suddenly stuck with long, limited spawns when the Cal goes down, just less ammo - Cal could stand a bonus to needles or something while we're at it). Your defense should be your team. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:47:00 - [178] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: The Eristic wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. It's not necessarily about keeping the links themselves up, it's keeping BONUSED links up. Were the Amarr's bonus retained until you spawned (or swapped to) a different suit, your point might be more accurate, but as is, the bonus is lost on death, so defending yourself is defending your links. I'd ultimately be fine with no sidearms and slot equalization on all four, but there is most definitely still defensive value in the sidearm on the Amarr (and would be on the Cal, too, though your team isn't suddenly stuck with long, limited spawns when the Cal goes down, just less ammo - Cal could stand a bonus to needles or something while we're at it). Your defense should be your team. SHOULD be doesn't always mean will be. Sometimes the only things standing between the enemy and flipping the objective is you, your bonused links, and your guns. Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:00:00 - [179] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I have a hard time believing the up link story.... Most uplinks I kill have no logis around them. Most uplinks I get killed at have no logis near them. How about this for a challenge? Remove ALL weapon and grenade slots. Balance them as they are without any consideration for any weapons in mind as they're not a weapon class to begin with. Then decide which things to add back for the offensive kits. You're drunk, go home. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:06:00 - [180] - Quote Oh, and some weapons can be categorized as more supportive weapons and having those weapons for logi fits neatly to it's purpose! So that is one plus for having light arm PLUS sidearm combo. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:14:00 - [181] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Kero's first set of comments: I'm talking against my own playstyle here, but it really makes sense for logis to lose Grenade slot and leave it to suits more inclined to breaching places. Especially, as logis are the ones most likely to be able to supply their own spam hives. [/list] I agree with everything except this last part. Assaults spam grenades just as well as (if not better) than logis now. STD nanohives are 6 per equipment slot. Any suit with an equipment slot can spam as often as a logi. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 14:23:00 - [182] - Quote Just realised. If logis (or any other suit for that matter) have less HIs and LOWs, then they will be unable to do have EWAR fits as those are created by stacking relevant modules. ...Not that passive scans are the logis' main function... KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 14:24:00 - [183] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: While the cald-logi was desiged in chromosome, it had extra fitting slot for no apparent reason. It has carried over, even through anti-slayer logi nerfs for some reason. Cald-logis extra slot can be taken away with no reimbursement for it. BUT the cald-logi nevertheless needs some love for it's rather lacking role bonus. Um. No, the Caldari logi has that extra module slot in exchange for having one less equipment than the Minmatar or Gallente. So, that extra slot being taken away should come with the missing equipment being added to it. And, yes, it also needs other things, like fixing the CPU for a start. Pokey Dravon wrote: Im amazed people are still trying to push for the Sidearm only Logi. Because "It's Support"? Isn't a Scout supposed to be Stealth/EWAR? So by a similar logic would they not be Sidearm Only too? How about we stop trying to strip away essentials from suits and instead focus on giving Assaults something unique that Logis cant replicate? So much this. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 14:45:00 - [184] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: While the cald-logi was desiged in chromosome, it had extra fitting slot for no apparent reason. It has carried over, even through anti-slayer logi nerfs for some reason. Cald-logis extra slot can be taken away with no reimbursement for it. BUT the cald-logi nevertheless needs some love for it's rather lacking role bonus. Um. No, the Caldari logi has that extra module slot in exchange for having one less equipment than the Minmatar or Gallente. So, that extra slot being taken away should come with the missing equipment being added to it. And, yes, it also needs other things, like fixing the CPU for a start. Ahh, my bad. I remembered This sheet from 07/05/2013 That focused on combat capabilities, summing up the total fitting modules slots - but did not count Eqs for that. Therefore listed value was 9 for ck.0, 6 for poor ak.0 and 8 for others. Btw, if someone wants to look how OP and UP some suits of those were, have a look at bonuses listed on this sheet. That was a good example by even looking at stats/bonus combo one can tell something was a slaying beast. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 15:27:00 - [185] - Quote For equipment slot progression my preference would be 3/4/4 (std/adv/pro). I'd be happy to see the primary weapon slot removed, if "carbine" versions of the three main rifles were introduced; sidearm slots, less range, less damage. For more radical logi rebalancing... * Get rid of drop uplinks entirely, replaced with an uplink module that allows players to spawn in on the logi's location. ** Even better, have the player spawn 150m -above- the logi, and drop in :-) * Get rid of nanohives entirely, replaced with a nanite beam tool working like the repair tool * Get rid of the 80% and 100% injectors, so logis have to rep up the players they've just revived * Add shield transporters as well as armor repair tools Even more radical... * Make a "logistics tool" that uses a primary weapon slot; use current repair tool model and effects * Replace equipment slots with selectable nanite crystals that change the function of the logi tool Armor repair crystal (as current repair tool) Shield projection crystal Ammo synthesis crystal (replaces nanohive with an ammo transfer beam) Recovery crystal - replaces injector, hold beam on a body for a couple of seconds to revive ** Remote stamina transfer crystal * With no equipment slots, many existing modules become sidearm or low slots RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:29:00 - [186] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I have a hard time believing the up link story.... Most uplinks I kill have no logis around them. Most uplinks I get killed at have no logis near them. How about this for a challenge? Remove ALL weapon and grenade slots. Balance them as they are without any consideration for any weapons in mind as they're not a weapon class to begin with. Then decide which things to add back for the offensive kits. You're drunk, go home. That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of logi layouts that are very terrible for the given role slot and stat wise without weapons. Thought experiment 2 the lot of you need to perform Give Assaults and Logis the same H/L assign them weapons and equipment slots to differentiate. Justify it. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:03:00 - [187] - Quote Thought experiment three Give assaults +2 eq slots. Make logi good at support under this environment. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:26:00 - [188] - Quote Thought experiment 4 Remove EQ from Assaults Justify using assaults over logis? CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 22:43:00 - [189] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Sidearm only is bad IMO for a number of reasons. Either leave the logi with the ability to use a basic rifle or skip the weapons entirely and let logi be a full on support with no weapons but very potent reps (and add the option to bring shield reps). No thank you on the bolded. How does his idea even keep coming up? Reps, btw, are potent as hell already at pro. How much extra potency would you consider to be "very potent" without being just immortality beams? I ask because there are occasional calls for beam nerf since multiple logis on one target can create immortal soldiers already. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 22:45:00 - [190] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Just realised. If logis (or any other suit for that matter) have less HIs and LOWs, then they will be unable to do have EWAR fits as those are created by stacking relevant modules. ...Not that passive scans are the logis' main function... Depends on where that logi knows he's going and what he knows he'll be doing there... Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 04:09:00 - [191] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, here we have the weirdest slot progression in all of DUST 514. I tried once before, was washed away in a tidal wave of tears, but now we must once more unto the breach. (image snip) We see that not only is there a discrepancy in total slots (I would understand it if there was a strict "this is traded for that", but there isn't really) so what I propose is that we define the trade-offs and normalize from there. Why does Gallente always have one lower than Minmatar? Logis need a buff so let's go with Minmatar slots. PG/CPU will certainly be normalized, for poor Calogi. I suspect it was being punished for old sins, that's the only rational reason I see for the capacity difference. Amarr Sidearm = Trade Equipment, Low Slot or both? Caldari Extra High Slot = Trade Equipment, Light weapon down grade to Sidearm, or both Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO I am sitting on a community proposal as well, that I will factor in with your direct forum feedback. First, thank you CCP Rattati for taking this on again. Secondly, this thread has been pretty enjoyable to read since the majority of the folks in here are actively trying to engage and we haven't gotten off the rails too much. Like many of other veteran team support players in the thread, i've run Logi since the games been around. The majority of my time in Dust has been running Cal Logi until the last 4 or 5 months where I've picked up more and more Gal / Min logi time. I'll address the direct question by Rattati first then add a bit of additional perspective. 1) I believe we need a 3/4/4 equipment progression (4/4/4 would be quite acceptable as well). I think the 4/6/8 slot progression is also acceptable if CPU / PG and perhaps defensive stats are given targeted increases. 2) Absolutely concur with CPU/PG upgrades for the Call Logi. If this is done well then eliminating the 4th low slot is no issue. 3a) Amarr logi's can keep the side arm. Caveat - I have no points into any Amarr suits other than the Heavy. 3b) Cal Logi.... I would prefer the 4th equipment slot. That said, the sidearm addition would be a personal boon to me and allow me to have viable AV fits without risking the majority of any equipment that i've put on the field. Bottom line, I can make either work and at this point - JUST PICK ONE. Ok...some additional points spurred by folks in the thread: a) I absolutely disagree with pulling either light weapons or grenades from Logi suits. As Fox eloquently said, "Logi's are specialists not pacifists." For a dedicated support player on more than a few occasions the best support you can provide in a situation is often with your weapon. Grenades are too utilitarian to pull from the Logis for no real reason either. An alternate option might be to incentivize the use of sidearms for Logi and Scouts with bonus to using those weapons but not limiting them from using LW. b) Slot progression and eHP / Speed shifts are an excellent place to start...HOWEVER,...there are some other base stats that need to be looked at that are in some cases as important. The innate regen (whether shield or armor) on the Logi class needs to be given a moderate increase. If survival is going to be predicated on speed and agility vs tank then the thread that helps hold that concept together is health regen. c) While this whole line of discussion seems very positive I cannot stress enough that that the heart of the Logi play centers around equipment usage and relevance coupled with the racial and role bonuses associated with the suits. - The rep tool is far and away the most valued tool for the logi class. I hesitate to say there is absolute consensus on this but I suspect it's damn close. To that end...why not give all logi suits some form of rep tool bonus as part of the role bonus? Roughly it can be variations on rep efficacy, range, or a combination. Eventually with a shield based rapper you can gain additional options. - BW and more importantly the # carried changes have also dramatically devalued hives and droplinks. Make no mistake, hives we're the least attractive equipment based bonus in most situations and they are worse off now. Additionally, Needles and remotes have no tie to bonus structure despite being equipment. I 100% believe that a full relook of the Logi Role & Racial bonus needs to be re-looked with a focus on clean, elegant changes that will increase the operational value of the Logi. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 05:12:00 - [192] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Thought experiment three Give assaults +2 eq slots. Make logi good at support under this environment. To be honest i miss the 2 equipment slots that proto assaults had in the closed beta. Injectior+nanohives where my alltime favourites. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.31 07:36:00 - [193] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I 100% believe that a full relook of the Logi Role & Racial bonus needs to be re-looked with a focus on clean, elegant changes that will increase the operational value of the Logi. For of all, very solid post. Secondly, bonuses have always been something I've been poking at since....god knows when. What sort of changes do you have in mind in regards to equipment? I know we've discussed moving the Repair Tool to a Role Bonus, but I'm curious to see what else you had in mind. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game 594	Posted - 2015.05.31 08:21:00 - [194] - Quote I'd just copy & past the assault layout for each race, take out the sidearm from every logi, and put a 3/3/4 EQ slot progression. Base HP stats not being as good as assault suits wouldn't bring back the slayer logi + no sidearms. Do this CCP, make things simple. Fix the game before trying to add anything else. (Hint: hit detection, lags, glitches,.. you've got some work :) )
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.31 10:42:00 - [195] - Quote I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest. Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be **ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot". I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 11:45:00 - [196] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of logi layouts that are very terrible for the given role slot and stat wise without weapons. Thought experiment 2 the lot of you need to perform Give Assaults and Logis the same H/L assign them weapons and equipment slots to differentiate. Justify it. We aleready have this. Min Logi and Min assault has identical H/L. Min Assault is faster,more HP, and a sidearmm and is a slayer fit. Min Logi, is the OG logi. NBiether suit can be substituted for the other. Min Logi is terrible slayer fit, and sorry, you cant Logi properly with one equipment. System works just fine. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Thought experiment three Give assaults +2 eq slots. Make logi good at support under this environment. Assault with more HP, speed, rep tool, needle. Assaults are now selfsuffecient and dont need logis, and can for the most part replace them. Its a stupid idea. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Thought experiment 4 Remove EQ from Assaults Justify using assaults over logis? Herp derp, err you can't? Really have you put any actual thought into these thought experiments? I dont think you're shitposting on purpose, but you might as well ask Breaking Stuff what he thinks about a Sentinel with a cloak, 5 equipment slots and a large blaster as a sidearm, or Dust Fiend what he thinks about Dropships with forgeguns as landing gear. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Hawkings Greenback Dead Man's Game 368	Posted - 2015.05.31 17:54:00 - [197] - Quote Rattati dude, i believe you know what needs to be done. You have access to all the relevant in game info and there have been threads with multiple good ideas and time invested in them and also people who know what they are talking about. I am a logi because of the versatility it affords me in fitting for a support class. I hope at the end of this that this can still be said. Good luck. But every night I burn. Screaming the animal scream. Every night I burn. Dreaming the crow-black dream.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.31 19:38:00 - [198] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of logi layouts that are very terrible for the given role slot and stat wise without weapons. Thought experiment 2 the lot of you need to perform Give Assaults and Logis the same H/L assign them weapons and equipment slots to differentiate. Justify it. We aleready have this. Min Logi and Min assault has identical H/L. Min Assault is faster,more HP, and a sidearmm and is a slayer fit. Min Logi, is the OG logi. NBiether suit can be substituted for the other. Min Logi is terrible slayer fit, and sorry, you cant Logi properly with one equipment. System works just fine. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Thought experiment three Give assaults +2 eq slots. Make logi good at support under this environment. Assault with more HP, speed, rep tool, needle. Assaults are now selfsuffecient and dont need logis, and can for the most part replace them. Its a stupid idea. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Thought experiment 4 Remove EQ from Assaults Justify using assaults over logis? Herp derp, err you can't? Really have you put any actual thought into these thought experiments? I dont think you're shitposting on purpose, but you might as well ask Breaking Stuff what he thinks about a Sentinel with a cloak, 5 equipment slots and a large blaster as a sidearm, or Dust Fiend what he thinks about Dropships with forgeguns as landing gear. Thank you for affirming that you're the last person I need to listen to for any logi changes. Your unwillingness to even skin a cat one way means you are not going to question exceptionally poor design decisions as long as it caters to you in a broken manner. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:49:00 - [199] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest. Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be ****ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot". I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:59:00 - [200] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest. Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be **ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot". I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 23:46:00 - [201] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Thank you for affirming that you're the last person I need to listen to for any logi changes. Your unwillingness to even skin a cat one way means you are not going to question exceptionally poor design decisions as long as it caters to you in a broken manner. Thats sweet, because you are the last person to discuss it with. Didn't you annoint yourself as the vehicle guy post-Judge? Also weird, because you are not Ratatti, and therefore not changing anything. If anything, Cross is the Logi dude and has been focused on changes and gathering feedback about logis from logis for a year now. He's actually fufilling his role as a community representative in this matter. Just let him deal with it. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 00:07:00 - [202] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Sidearm only is bad IMO for a number of reasons. Either leave the logi with the ability to use a basic rifle or skip the weapons entirely and let logi be a full on support with no weapons but very potent reps (and add the option to bring shield reps). No thank you on the bolded. How does his idea even keep coming up? Reps, btw, are potent as hell already at pro. How much extra potency would you consider to be "very potent" without being just immortality beams? I ask because there are occasional calls for beam nerf since multiple logis on one target can create immortal soldiers already. It keeps coming up because it's better than the pretense that "sidearm only" is a remotely viable way for a suit to be run, especially one that is (frequently and currently) being framed has having less combat context mobility than Scouts or Assaults. If sidearms where truly a viable option for a weapon to the point where it could be the only weapon a role has access to then players who focus on the slayer role would not be so quick to say they'd abandon the assault frame, and it's side arm slot, bonus to fitting side arms, LWs and nades, and bonus to LWs in favor of the logi frame however this very thing happened with merely the suggestion of swapping speed profiles. Speaking as someone who's been using Reps since before Codex build of closed beta even during the dark times when they gave no WP whatsoever I know exactly how potent they are and when compared with actual grown up EVE level reps they're pretty laughable. The simple reality of logistics is that either A) they are supposed to be in the combat zone with the ability to meaningfully defend themselves B) they are supposed to be in the combat zone without the ability to defend themselves but meaningfully (more) potent support action and/or exclusive access to support equipment. The pallid psudo option of "C leave them with support options that can be virtually replicated by any class with an equipment slot but nerf their ability to survive/defend themselves so they're not meaningful able to exist in the combat zones where they're supposed to be to supply support" is deeply conceptually flawed and needs to be abandoned entirely. We have an example in New Eden right now of how support/logistics play looks if said logistics play is not meant to have combat capacity. It looks like having the ability to counter multiple streams of incoming damage and having functionally exclusive access to the support actions/mods. So either logi need to be "non-combat" and follow the EVE method, including more exclusive access to equipment (and by more it could very well mean total, depending on how things are done) and lose all weapons as well as having the virtues of said support action (specifically reps, with a possible look at others) scaled up. Or, logi are accepted as combat mercs who are supposed to be combat mercs and have a focus on providing more support than their counterparts at the expense of less on board support for their dps output (i.e. lack of role bonuses to damage). This is following the method established for other roles like Sentinels and Scouts both of whom are combat mercs who havea focus on providing field assets other than a specialization on dps, while the Commandos and Assaults are combat roles that specialize in providing above mechanical average dps output with their racial weapons. To be sure the actual mechanics for all of these things could use a look, but the concepts are pretty straight forward. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 00:09:00 - [203] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: I'd just copy & past the assault layout for each race, take out the sidearm from every logi, and put a 3/3/4 EQ slot progression. Base HP stats not being as good as assault suits wouldn't bring back the slayer logi + no sidearms. Do this CCP, make things simple. Assuming that they still fit their proper place in the role/game wide Speed/HP curve this seems pretty reasonable. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 00:13:00 - [204] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest. Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be ****ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot". I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 00:19:00 - [205] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest. Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be ***ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot". I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? This is a more relevant point that it may seem to some who are not directly familiar with the mechanics of the Amarr bonus to uplinks. Specifically the fact that the bonus does not function* while the logi player is dead, meaning that every moment the Amarr logi spends dead is a moment that the entire racial support bonus of the Amarr logi provides no benefit for the logis team. As long as the "turned off while dead" mechanic remains in place, the Amarr logi defending itself so it is able to stay alive and thus providing it's racial bonus, actually is supporting it's squad. (I personally have long wanted to "off while dead" mechanic to be removed, which would also remove the above argument for the sidearm, but while it remains the reasons for an Amarr - and perhaps Caldari who's bonus works in a similar way - to have a sidearm likewise remains). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.01 02:48:00 - [206] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game 600	Posted - 2015.06.01 05:57:00 - [207] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: I'd just copy & past the assault layout for each race, take out the sidearm from every logi, and put a 3/3/4 EQ slot progression. Base HP stats not being as good as assault suits wouldn't bring back the slayer logi + no sidearms. Do this CCP, make things simple. Assuming that they still fit their proper place in the role/game wide Speed/HP curve this seems pretty reasonable. EDIT: The debate about the Amarr layout aside Agreed about the Amarr Logi ^^ Some tweaks will probably have to be done but that's a good and simple way. Shayz did a quite good thread about the Amarr Logi btw. WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:32:00 - [208] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:42:00 - [209] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* Are logi stealing mottos from Blood Omen now? I mean I'm down, but I didn't know we were ready to air those publicly yet (yes I'm aware that this has a historical context that pre-dates those games, but where's the fun in that ) CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:43:00 - [210] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: I'd just copy & past the assault layout for each race, take out the sidearm from every logi, and put a 3/3/4 EQ slot progression. Base HP stats not being as good as assault suits wouldn't bring back the slayer logi + no sidearms. Do this CCP, make things simple. Assuming that they still fit their proper place in the role/game wide Speed/HP curve this seems pretty reasonable. EDIT: The debate about the Amarr layout aside Agreed about the Amarr Logi ^^ Some tweaks will probably have to be done but that's a good and simple way. Shayz did a quite good thread about the Amarr Logi btw. Indeed, also interested in the results of that poll. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:44:00 - [211] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... I feel that successfully taking on an amarr logi and dropping the bonus on their links is more of an 'emergent gameplay' thing and a reward to the people that killed the logi, rather than a huge massive bigbad problem with the amarr logi. I'm not 100% but i believe they retain / reapply their bonus so long as they spawn out in an amarr logi dropsuit, but even if they dont - Woe to the Vanquished. Get your team to protect you better, or learn to support them better. I still do not feel that the amarr either need or should have a sidearm (especially when trading a highslot for it... the equipment slot is more balanced, but I'd still like to see all logi's hit 4 equip), their first line of defense should be their team. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 286	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:08:00 - [212] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... I feel that successfully taking on an amarr logi and dropping the bonus on their links is more of an 'emergent gameplay' thing and a reward to the people that killed the logi, rather than a huge massive bigbad problem with the amarr logi. I'm not 100% but i believe they retain / reapply their bonus so long as they spawn out in an amarr logi dropsuit, but even if they dont - Woe to the Vanquished. Get your team to protect you better, or learn to support them better. I still do not feel that the amarr either need or should have a sidearm (especially when trading a highslot for it... the equipment slot is more balanced, but I'd still like to see all logi's hit 4 equip), their first line of defense should be their team. My problem is actually in a bonus to Drop Uplinks, which have always struck me as more part of an infiltrator's kit, rather than as part of a direct support platform's...it just doesn't seem to fit in the role, and is more shoehorned in because it's the only piece of Amarr Tech that goes in the equipment slot... Sidearm on the Amarr Logi Aside (I'd prefer to keep it myself, but I can work with 4 equipment and a light weapon) I think all the logis need bonuses that make sense in a direct support role (or rather, we need to define the logi's role more concretely) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:48:00 - [213] - Quote I've talked about this in triage ward, but logi's bonuses do in most cases are directly influenced by their eve 'warfare' doctrines. Caldari = Siege warfare, they take a place and entrench it with nanohives and rep hives - making them incredibly hard to push out. Their bonus amplifies the strength of their ability to hold a position. Gallente = Information warfare, the scanner allows you to gain information about your enemies movements, and deny them information either through skillful avoidance or assassination. The bonus allows them to see more things, for longer durations. Amarr = Armored warfare, this is a bit of a stretch but in traditional armored warfare doctrines it's all about supply lines the amarr logi is able to dramatically shorten the length of time it takes to bring their slowest but most overbearingly powerful heavily armored units to the front of a fight even if a heavily armored unit gets downed. Their bonus further shortens spawn times and increases the duration that their shortened supply lines stay active. Minmatar = skirmish warfare, unlike the caldari nanohives, the rep tool is infinitely relocateable and has an infinite supply of HP repair allowing the minmatar logi to follow his squad wherever combat takes them, the bonus to rep tool also allows them to rep from further out and repair damage even faster, sustaining his squad (especially with the usual minmatar mixed HP) through skirmishes with units that should theoretically overpower them. I think their bonuses make perfect sense. A single drop uplink can certainly help be part of an incursion into an area, but an amarr logi drop uplink says "we're making a heavy offensive here". A single nanohive restores some ammo or HP, a callogi nanohive says "We're going to hold this position". A rep tool says "I want to be able to support my team no matter where the battle goes", a min logi rep tool says "I am going to provide the BEST support to my team, no matter where we go". An active scanner goes "I want to see hostiles before they see us" a gallogi scanner says "I am dedicated to providing my squad with the best information they need to take down their opponents, while not getting taken down themselves". Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:19:00 - [214] - Quote As a quick - but relevant - sidebar; the discussion of the Amarr sidearm and how it (and the Cal) interact with the racial bonuses is much like the Assault conversation as well and labors under the same basic flaw. That being the notion that slot layouts should be defined/redefined based on the racial or role skills which are in both cases lack luster for providing merit and incentive to run the role itself. The slot layout, or basic stat profile, of either medium frame should not be defined (or re-defined) but the value (or lack there of) of the current bonuses. The skills need work, that's a given, but the slots and stats should be balanced within each role and within the medium line, in light of a context where the racial and role skills are presumed to be in a proper state. If they are not balanced within that presumed framework all balance that is applied to them will have to be re-worked once again when the bonuses are addressed. So, while considering proper slot layout assuming the following at all times. The assault is better at providing DPS due to it's racial skills The logi is better at providing support (aka using equipment) due to it's racial skills Survivability should be defined by a equal (but NOT identical) speed/eHP ratio game wide Slots should be balanced with role vision in mind, but largely against each other not against aspects covered by racial skills et al Without this framework for the discussion it is very easy to spend functionally limitless amounts of time presenting theory crafting (and counter theory crafting) "what if" scenarios, essentially running in circles rather than moving towards any form of constructive context or resolution. 0.02 ISK Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 484	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:33:00 - [215] - Quote Probably off topic but the cal logi bonus to nanohives has been made fairly useless due to the equipment carry buff.. i would be surprised if many assaults even made it through 6 basic nanohives per clone unless they are spamming nades off a roof.
Kaze Eyrou Dust University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:45:00 - [216] - Quote A little side note as well, the Caldari and Amarr bonuses are still bugged as well. While we talk about theorycrafting and other discussions, I would love to know that these bugs would be fixed alongside the buff/changes to the Logistics class. Right now I'm posting on mobile, but I'll attempt to find the thread I made that I'm talking about, and link it in this post. CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links
Kaze Eyrou Dust University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:54:00 - [217] - Quote Back on topic, I too would like to see the slot progression similar to what we have on Assaults. However, I'm against having Logistics natively faster than Assaults. I believe doing so would cause another Logi Slayer era. At least that's my 2 ISK on the issue. CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 17:30:00 - [218] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... I feel that successfully taking on an amarr logi and dropping the bonus on their links is more of an 'emergent gameplay' thing and a reward to the people that killed the logi, rather than a huge massive bigbad problem with the amarr logi. I'm not 100% but i believe they retain / reapply their bonus so long as they spawn out in an amarr logi dropsuit, but even if they dont - Woe to the Vanquished. Get your team to protect you better, or learn to support them better. I still do not feel that the amarr either need or should have a sidearm (especially when trading a highslot for it... the equipment slot is more balanced, but I'd still like to see all logi's hit 4 equip), their first line of defense should be their team. i dont think they should have a fourth equipment either. 3 is enough for a more combat oriented logi(which the amarr very much is if you read the suit description ) Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 18:09:00 - [219] - Quote Kaze Eyrou wrote: Back on topic, I too would like to see the slot progression similar to what we have on Assaults. However, I'm against having Logistics natively faster than Assaults. I believe doing so would cause another Logi Slayer era. At least that's my 2 ISK on the issue. Be it faster with lower HP, or slower with higher HP, the relative placement of any role on the HP to Speed ratio should never define their 'slayer' status on average (unless the curve is broken, in which case it would need fixed). If fast, low HP logi are so potent that they become better slayers than assaults (properly bonused assaults) then there is a fundamental problem with speed that reaches well beyond the scope of balance between a couple roles and it needs to be addressed. Simply put, the stats of logi shouldn't be defined by making them inferior to assaults, rather both the assault and logi should have their stats defined by being survivable and stable within their role and then specialization applied (via racial skills et al) to make the roles attractive for their specialized use. We don't, for example, nerf the HP of all other roles to make the Sentinel properly resilient, rather we apply damage resistance to the Sentinel so that it's properly specialized. (but we certainly do want to make sure that, skills included, the assault is a robust dps slayer class, just as the logi should provide meaningful support value above and beyond what a squad of non-logi could supply for themselves, there's some work to be done to reach either goal) I suppose my point here is speed and HP of each role should be defined through a game wide method, role balance should be advised by the presence of all the other roles most certainly, but not outright defined by it (IMO anyway) as out right definition of one role by another risks the "one role to rule them all" situation we've faced in the past. EDIT: Just to be clear, assault being faster and lower HP as you seem to suggest is every bit as valid as assault being slower with high HP, and I don't mean to imply otherwise. Simply stating that "because slayer logi" shouldn't be any kind of concern when formulating the conceptual shape of a game state where there will be solid racial bonuses for the assault and logi and where a proper Speed/HP ratio exists. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 286	Posted - 2015.06.01 19:00:00 - [220] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: As a quick - but relevant - sidebar; the discussion of the Amarr sidearm and how it (and the Cal) interact with the racial bonuses is much like the Assault conversation as well and labors under the same basic flaw. That being the notion that slot layouts should be defined/redefined based on the racial or role skills which are in both cases lack luster for providing merit and incentive to run the role itself. The slot layout, or basic stat profile, of either medium frame should not be defined (or re-defined) but the value (or lack there of) of the current bonuses. The skills need work, that's a given, but the slots and stats should be balanced within each role and within the medium line, in light of a context where the racial and role skills are presumed to be in a proper state. If they are not balanced within that presumed framework all balance that is applied to them will have to be re-worked once again when the bonuses are addressed. So, while considering proper slot layout assuming the following at all times. The assault is better at providing DPS due to it's racial skills The logi is better at providing support (aka using equipment) due to it's racial skills Survivability should be defined by a equal (but NOT identical) speed/eHP ratio game wide Slots should be balanced with role vision in mind, but largely against each other not against aspects covered by racial skills et al Without this framework for the discussion it is very easy to spend functionally limitless amounts of time presenting theory crafting (and counter theory crafting) "what if" scenarios, essentially running in circles rather than moving towards any form of constructive context or resolution. 0.02 ISK Cross If we assume that we get (through either iteration or part of a comprehensive update) solid logistics bonuses focused on direct support, then there should be no meaningful reason for the Amarr Logi to keep its sidearm (Other than traditional flavor, or if the bonus is focused on a deploy-able, where that bonus goes away if the logi dies). My point is, that the bonus as is right now has been tied to the slot layout, they are not independent variables under current conditions, we have to assume that changes. Additionally, there should be no issue with Logi's having Light Weapons if we assume that the Assaults get a proper bonus to their light weapons (Something more similar to the Amarr/Min Assault bonuses...or possibly in addition to bonuses along those lines). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 19:38:00 - [221] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: As a quick - but relevant - sidebar; the discussion of the Amarr sidearm and how it (and the Cal) interact with the racial bonuses is much like the Assault conversation as well and labors under the same basic flaw. That being the notion that slot layouts should be defined/redefined based on the racial or role skills which are in both cases lack luster for providing merit and incentive to run the role itself. The slot layout, or basic stat profile, of either medium frame should not be defined (or re-defined) but the value (or lack there of) of the current bonuses. The skills need work, that's a given, but the slots and stats should be balanced within each role and within the medium line, in light of a context where the racial and role skills are presumed to be in a proper state. If they are not balanced within that presumed framework all balance that is applied to them will have to be re-worked once again when the bonuses are addressed. So, while considering proper slot layout assuming the following at all times. The assault is better at providing DPS due to it's racial skills The logi is better at providing support (aka using equipment) due to it's racial skills Survivability should be defined by a equal (but NOT identical) speed/eHP ratio game wide Slots should be balanced with role vision in mind, but largely against each other not against aspects covered by racial skills et al Without this framework for the discussion it is very easy to spend functionally limitless amounts of time presenting theory crafting (and counter theory crafting) "what if" scenarios, essentially running in circles rather than moving towards any form of constructive context or resolution. 0.02 ISK Cross If we assume that we get (through either iteration or part of a comprehensive update) solid logistics bonuses focused on direct support, then there should be no meaningful reason for the Amarr Logi to keep its sidearm (Other than traditional flavor, or if the bonus is focused on a deploy-able, where that bonus goes away if the logi dies). My point is, that the bonus as is right now has been tied to the slot layout, they are not independent variables under current conditions, we have to assume that changes. Additionally, there should be no issue with Logi's having Light Weapons if we assume that the Assaults get a proper bonus to their light weapons (Something more similar to the Amarr/Min Assault bonuses...or possibly in addition to bonuses along those lines). There is no issue with Logi having Light Weapons never has been despite the many flawed attempts to assume otherwise. A weakness in one thing (the dps output of the assault in this case) is not a reason to nerf another separate thing (be that scouts, heavies, logi, as have all happened... the commandos have been safe in that they are currently pre-nerfed). The sidearm on the Amarr could go either way, there is no specific reason why it must be there with the properly assumed case, but there is also no clear reason why it should not (presuming we account for the rest of the slot layout to be balanced). It is every bit as much tradition to assume that logi have no sidearm as it is to assume that the Amarr is the exception to that, there is no explicit reason for or against it which is largely why it is still so frequently debated. The major impacts that make the slot itself - or rather it's value - so subjective is that only one weapon can be employed at a time thus limiting the utility of the side arm to a sub-set of use cases (for example when you run out of ammo during a gun fight). Further, 'the thing' that it is commonly weighed against is an equipment slot but those don't hold an absolute value either as their net value decreases as you gain more of them. Sound odd? Let me elaborate. How much value would a single slot be to a Sentinel? Having one rep tool is of value, having 3 is not three times as valuable. Bringing a stack of hives on an assault suit provides a great deal of utility, most slayers are however not going to be able to use up a full payload of 3-4 slots worth of hives before they die. Having uplinks on the field is valuable, and more to prevent loss of all holds merit, but if you're trying to spawn into a location having 1 present is vital, having 12 present is primarily useful in that it ensures you retain that 1 which you actually need 4 Injectors serves no purpose Now of course you can diversify your slots and that does provide value, I do not mean to imply otherwise, but you can only use so much at a single time so even there the value is throttled. Just as it is throttled in the case of running - for example - multiple active scanners. Are 4 scanners useful in certain situations? Sure. But the value gained from a 3rd or 4th scanner is not as large of an upswing as the value gained from the first, or even second. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 19:43:00 - [222] - Quote Ran out of characters, but the point being that nothing is an independent variable, nor does anything once context is applied, hold a 100% static value, not slots, not stats, not the mods your suits are fitted with. So while obviously taking an approach that focuses on fewer things at a time will not account for everything right out of the gate, neither will an approach that vainly attempts to look to widely at everything simultaneously. The differences being that the somewhat more simplified approach provides better context for the tuning that will likely be required either way. It's very useful in complex systems to try and maintain as many apples to apples comparisons as one is able. Building from them to address the wider more nuanced implications is required no doubt, but trying to do everything at once is not actually very viable. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 14:20:00 - [223] - Quote Why are you trying to push this ratatti? Doesnt this colide with tiericide and the power core idea? Give all suits the same slot layouts and the power cores itself dictate what you can fit on them. I honestly dont see a issue with this. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 939	Posted - 2015.06.02 17:54:00 - [224] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Why are you trying to push this ratatti? Doesnt this colide with tiericide and the power core idea? Give all suits the same slot layouts and the power cores itself dictate what you can fit on them. I honestly dont see a issue with this. I guess this readjustment falls into the category of hotfixes, while powercore / tiericide is a 100% client update. At least that's what I read from his comment below: CCP Rattati wrote: xp3ll3d dust wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO With the talk of "tiericide" & power cores, I thought that the plan was to remove slot numbers as progression. Looking at these numbers, it looks like this is a proposal for "right now" that will then be replaced with tiericide later. So just checking, the plan is: 1. Normalise the slot counts right now within the existing game. To give you a chance to check that the proto number of slots are balanced fine for each race. 2. Later on with tiericide, standardise all suits on the number of slots that were given to proto At least, know what the smart answer is before making sweeping changes.
Petrified Ancient Tree The Iberian Norsemen 46	Posted - 2015.06.02 23:13:00 - [225] - Quote The CA logi switch, would that be static or dynamic? In other words: could we choose a light weapon when setting up the logi and thus sacrifice an equipment slot while having the option to use a side arm and thus keep all 4 equipment slots? That would be ideal, in my mind, if you could get it to work. Otherwise, I know of a good number of side arms that work quite well for a logi to use - providing you are acting as a logistics support. But otherwise. I prefer my son's Shaman over my Kampo when it comes to logi support - a full bag of tricks beats a partial bag of tricks any day. Nothing cures bad aim like a mass driver...
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 837	Posted - 2015.06.03 05:01:00 - [226] - Quote Thoughts are ruminating again. CCP, you must make the decision for the sidearm on the AMARR and CAL Logis. You are the Refs, we are the players. Though we may have some good input, you will have to make the final call. AMARR and CAL able to run AV support is Awesome. (sidearms and 3 EQ) The CAL logi sucks in general, for many reasons covered elsewhere. It just lacks an effective way to survive. That 9th slot helps, but the suit is still painful to run. - so more sweeps on balance like this speed balance and eventual review of bonuses and stats will be great. Something to help it survive. Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.06.03 08:38:00 - [227] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level. Absolutely. No logi should have only 2 equipment slots, not when scouts and potentially medium frames will match them on that. However... there is a problem with the idea that the Amarr logi would have full equipment count AND its sidearm at standard and adv, if the other logis only get their full equipment count at proto. This would once again lead to the issue where while even if the different racial logis would be fairly balanced at proto tier, at lower tiers some of them would be comparatively better than others of the same tier... We have that now with the wonky module slot progression, and the whole point was to get rid of that issue finally. Really, the only way I can see to address both those issues fairly is giving all Logis their full equipment slot count across all tiers. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 948	Posted - 2015.06.03 13:02:00 - [228] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level. Absolutely. No logi should have only 2 equipment slots, not when scouts and potentially medium frames will match them on that. However... there is a problem with the idea that the Amarr logi would have full equipment count AND its sidearm at standard and adv, if the other logis only get their full equipment count at proto. This would once again lead to the issue where while even if the different racial logis would be fairly balanced at proto tier, at lower tiers some of them would be comparatively better than others of the same tier... We have that now with the wonky module slot progression, and the whole point was to get rid of that issue finally. Really, the only way I can see to address both those issues fairly is giving all Logis their full equipment slot count across all tiers. I-Shayz-I came up with a good solution. Give logis a 3, 3, 4 equipment slot progression, but give the Amarr logi a sidearm instead of an equipment at proto only. So standard and advanced Amarr logis would be like other logis, but they get a sidearm at proto instead of the fourth equipment.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.06.03 14:12:00 - [229] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level. Absolutely. No logi should have only 2 equipment slots, not when scouts and potentially medium frames will match them on that. However... there is a problem with the idea that the Amarr logi would have full equipment count AND its sidearm at standard and adv, if the other logis only get their full equipment count at proto. This would once again lead to the issue where while even if the different racial logis would be fairly balanced at proto tier, at lower tiers some of them would be comparatively better than others of the same tier... We have that now with the wonky module slot progression, and the whole point was to get rid of that issue finally. Really, the only way I can see to address both those issues fairly is giving all Logis their full equipment slot count across all tiers. I-Shayz-I came up with a good solution. Give logis a 3, 3, 4 equipment slot progression, but give the Amarr logi a sidearm instead of an equipment at proto only. So standard and advanced Amarr logis would be like other logis, but they get a sidearm at proto instead of the fourth equipment. sigh Unless I have completely lost my mind, originally the Amarr logi had that type of progression. The sidearm, which was supposed to be the defining feature of the Amarr logi, was only unlocked at a higher tier, and was not available at standard (or advanced, if I remember correctly). This was changed later, as indeed, it was agreed by most that having that particular feature not available at lower tiers was odd. Every single other suit has all of its weapon slots unlocked at standard, the Amarr logi being the odd one out was... well, unnecessary. Only having the sidearm available at proto is moving us further away from normalization, and is not the approach I would advocate at all. If we go that route, we should maybe also start looking at, say, scouts only having 2 equipment slots at proto, etc. The most elegant solution to this would be to give all logis their full equipment count at all tiers. The difference between the different tiers should be narrowed, not increased. And why not start on bridging the gap now, if we are looking at completely flattened slot counts due to introducing power cores sometime down the road. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Balistyc Farshot OUTCAST MERCS General Tso's Alliance 194	Posted - 2015.06.03 14:52:00 - [230] - Quote I think if anything we are focused too heavily on logis attack potential. Lets buff their equipment to make them equipment focused (Maybe even by racial focus). If the issue is scouts and assaults filling the logi roll, lets give logis a bonus to PG/CPU reduction of equipment and increase the PG/CPU off all higher end equipment so scouts and assaults will be wielding lower end gear without a heavy sacrifice. Use the same tools CCP used to balance cloaking devices being on all suits. With the team chat gone, we need to really start leveraging the squad finder!

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 948	Posted - 2015.06.03 15:04:00 - [231] - Quote No additional fitting bonuses! The cloak fitting bonus for scouts is terrible implementation, as you can only sensibly fit a cloak on a scout when you have level 5 in scout. I think Zaria's idea is best. Give logis 4 equipment at all tiers. Amarr 3 plus sidearm at all tiers. The solution I mentioned earlier assumed that equipment progression happening.
ZDub 303 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.06.03 17:10:00 - [232] - Quote For reasons already stated, the Amarr Logi should lose its sidearm. Slot layout should conform within racial and class boundaries. Either all logis should be 3E + S or none of them. There is a place for 3E + S but it should just become its own suit with its own, much clearer role. All of this fighting is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Logistics has no clear role, and so everyone is commenting with their own bias and definition of what their version of a Logistics should be. Rattati, define what role a Logistics should have in battle, and then you will get more relevant feedback. Until then, you will just get bickering and a flood of tears as forum warriors fight to the death over which vision of what a Logistics 'should be' is more correct. As an aside, 'Support' is too general of an answer for what Logistics should be doing. If 'Equipment' is the answer, then you need to consider how racial bonuses are fighting against that role definition. If you are thinking that 'equipment' is the Logistics role (I disagree and think that is still too general of a definition myself but its workable) then you need to remove or at least significantly mitigate the effect that racial bonuses have on that role.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 950	Posted - 2015.06.03 17:38:00 - [233] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: For reasons already stated, the Amarr Logi should lose its sidearm. Slot layout should conform within racial and class boundaries. Either all logis should be 3E + S or none of them. There is a place for 3E + S but it should just become its own suit with its own, much clearer role. All of this fighting is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Logistics has no clear role, and so everyone is commenting with their own bias and definition of what their version of a Logistics should be. Rattati, define what role a Logistics should have in battle, and then you will get more relevant feedback. Until then, you will just get bickering and a flood of tears as forum warriors fight to the death over which vision of what a Logistics 'should be' is more correct. As an aside, 'Support' is too general of an answer for what Logistics should be doing. If 'Equipment' is the answer, then you need to consider how racial bonuses are fighting against that role definition. If you are thinking that 'equipment' is the Logistics role (I disagree and think that is still too general of a definition myself but its workable) then you need to remove or at least significantly mitigate the effect that racial bonuses have on that role. I don't see any bickering or tears. The only tears you are going to get are from Amarr logi users if you remove their sidearm. Logis have one of the, if not the, most defined role in the game. Equipment use. And how exactly are the logi's equipment bonuses bad for their use of equipment?
ZDub 303 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.06.03 19:06:00 - [234] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I don't see any bickering or tears. The only tears you are going to get are from Amarr logi users if you remove their sidearm. Logis have one of the, if not the, most defined role in the game. Equipment use. And how exactly are the logi's equipment bonuses bad for their use of equipment? I would suggest you listen to the last Biomassed podcast on this topic. The racial bonuses for equipment really pidgeonhole each logi suit into a few specific and niche roles. Its not as clear cut as you say. Min Logi is a Medic with a rep tool, amarr logi drops uplinks, gallente logi is a scanner, and cal logi just kind of sucks but is supposed to drop boosted nanohives. Those roles, and how they interact and are useful in the battlefield are very different. You wouldn't use a min log with 4 active scanners, that would be senseless. You would use a gallente logi with 4 active scanners though, and you would be useful. Would you use a min logi with 4 rep tools? I would certainly hope not... You could use a cal logi with 4 boosted nanohives but you would probably be largely irrelevant. In fact, if you're not a min logi with a boosted rep tool or an amarr logi with some decent combat capability you are just running a truly subpar fit. Its fine to run subpar fits in pubs 'for the lulz' but when it comes to balancing it would help if each class was actually useful and served a real purpose. If 'equipment' is to the truly be the role of a logi suit then they need global bonuses to all relevant equipment (explosives likely excluded) so that each logi suit can actually perform the 'equipment' role.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.06.04 05:46:00 - [235] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I don't see any bickering or tears. The only tears you are going to get are from Amarr logi users if you remove their sidearm. Logis have one of the, if not the, most defined role in the game. Equipment use. And how exactly are the logi's equipment bonuses bad for their use of equipment? I would suggest you listen to the last Biomassed podcast on this topic. The racial bonuses for equipment really pidgeonhole each logi suit into a few specific and niche roles. Its not as clear cut as you say. Min Logi is a Medic with a rep tool, amarr logi drops uplinks, gallente logi is a scanner, and cal logi just kind of sucks but is supposed to drop boosted nanohives. Those roles, and how they interact and are useful in the battlefield are very different. You wouldn't use a min log with 4 active scanners, that would be senseless. You would use a gallente logi with 4 active scanners though, and you would be useful. Would you use a min logi with 4 rep tools? I would certainly hope not... You could use a cal logi with 4 boosted nanohives but you would probably be largely irrelevant. In fact, if you're not a min logi with a boosted rep tool or an amarr logi with some decent combat capability you are just running a truly subpar fit. Its fine to run subpar fits in pubs 'for the lulz' but when it comes to balancing it would help if each class was actually useful and served a real purpose. If 'equipment' is to the truly be the role of a logi suit then they need global bonuses to all relevant equipment (explosives likely excluded) so that each logi suit can actually perform the 'equipment' role. The only thing I would be careful about universal bonuses is that you do not want Logi bonuses to feel too similar, lest they become overly homoginized. I think opening up additional options aside from the single bonused equipment is good, but I'm very reluctant to give too much of an over arcing bonus set. Does that make sense? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
rayakalj9 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 17	Posted - 2015.06.04 07:01:00 - [236] - Quote I believe out of every racial logistics i think the caldari should have more cpu than others born jamaican
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.04 16:04:00 - [237] - Quote Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? Shield suits are not competetive and do not allow for teamplay. While on the flipside the other 3 logis have a crucial role attached to them which makes them a valuable asset on the battlefield. Minmatarr= armor reps which helps out amarr and galente suits the most Amarr= faster spawning that allows you reinforce your team quicker then spawning on a objective Gallente= intel about enemy locations and equipment by the usage of active scanners And then we have the caldari which gives nanohive ressuply bonus. Ya know what else enhances the resupply rate of nanohives? Every reserve ammo increasing skill. So lets say you have the ammo skill for AR's at 5 which gives you +25% reserve ammo. The AR has a bae max ammo of 350 rounds. The probs best ammo hive is the X-3 quantum with 21% resupply rate. Ammo per clip: 70 rounds Base ammo= 350 ammo with the skills to V= 437,5 (round it down to 437) resupply rate from a X-3 quantum hive= 21% Resupply rate without any ammunition skills= 73 rounds Resupply rate WITH ammunition skill on V= 91 rounds Now lets see how the caldari logi resupply bonus worksout: +25% resupply rate on the nanohives base stat at lvl5 cal logi resupply rate rate of the X-3 Quantum hive= 21% resupply rate with cal. logi V= 26,25% I assume that i have 0 skills in the AR ammo skill which would mean i get aswell exactly 91 rounds for each nanohive pulse. So some 1 please explain me here how this skill bonus is benefical if i can get the exact same result from a skill that has much less SP investment cost? Ammo skill cost ~932k SP Cal logi SP cost ~2,7 mil SP (+~300k is from the medium frame skillbook) Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Balistyc Farshot Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 200	Posted - 2015.06.04 16:31:00 - [238] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? Shield suits are not competetive and do not allow for teamplay. While on the flipside the other 3 logis have a crucial role attached to them which makes them a valuable asset on the battlefield. Minmatarr= armor reps which helps out amarr and galente suits the most Amarr= faster spawning that allows you reinforce your team quicker then spawning on a objective Gallente= intel about enemy locations and equipment by the usage of active scanners And then we have the caldari which gives nanohive ressuply bonus. Ya know what else enhances the resupply rate of nanohives? Every reserve ammo increasing skill. So lets say you have the ammo skill for AR's at 5 which gives you +25% reserve ammo. The AR has a bae max ammo of 350 rounds. The probs best ammo hive is the X-3 quantum with 21% resupply rate. Ammo per clip: 70 rounds Base ammo= 350 ammo with the skills to V= 437,5 (round it down to 437) resupply rate from a X-3 quantum hive= 21% Resupply rate without any ammunition skills= 73 rounds Resupply rate WITH ammunition skill on V= 91 rounds Now lets see how the caldari logi resupply bonus worksout: +25% resupply rate on the nanohives base stat at lvl5 cal logi resupply rate rate of the X-3 Quantum hive= 21% resupply rate with cal. logi V= 26,25% I assume that i have 0 skills in the AR ammo skill which would mean i get aswell exactly 91 rounds for each nanohive pulse. So some 1 please explain me here how this skill bonus is benefical if i can get the exact same result from a skill that has much less SP investment cost? Ammo skill cost ~932k SP Cal logi SP cost ~2,7 mil SP (+~300k is from the medium frame skillbook) I agree with this statement but the Gal logi I also feel sorry for. If you simply get SP for squad kills from intel, you are the only WP hungry Logi. The cal logi also needs some love in the bonus area. I would say we look at what adds value to nanohives. It isn't the restock rate. Now that we can stock more than ever you see them on assault suits a lot. I think if the Cal logi could place 1 more hive per 3 levels (lvl1 place 1 more militia/basic, lvl3 1 more advanced, lvl5 1 more proto) of each tier that would be more in line with the other bonuses. Getting the ammo faster isn't going to turn a battle at all. Usually it is having multiple points to gather ammo. Example of the disparity is that someone will look at an Amar uplink and choose it over anyone elses. A min with a rep tool will be expected to do the repping. Gal logis are the scanners and everyone knows when those go out because everything lights up. Cal logi, I don't pursue to get my ammo. With the team chat gone, we need to really start leveraging the squad finder!
ZDub 303 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.06.04 20:04:00 - [239] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The only thing I would be careful about universal bonuses is that you do not want Logi bonuses to feel too similar, lest they become overly homoginized. I think opening up additional options aside from the single bonused equipment is good, but I'm very reluctant to give too much of an over arcing bonus set. Does that make sense? I understand what you're saying Pokey, but honestly, I think the sentiment is a bit wrong in hindsight. A year ago I would have agreed with you but today I think that's the wrong philosophy. I want to refer back to a statement Jaysyn made probably 20-30 episodes ago where he talked about how difficult the light assault rifles were to balance. He mentioned that most of the problems balancing are because CCP is trying too hard to make the rifles feel different for the sake of it, and the end result is just a set of rifles that mostly feel awkward. In this effort, we ended up with a weapon like the Rail Rifle. Its a gun that has a charge up time and massive recoil that you cannot reset easily. So you have the longest range weapon that performs significantly worse as you engage at a further range. In the end, you have a weapon that just doesn't work. When a weapon doesn't work, the easiest indicator is when it never feels quite balanced, its either overpowered into relevancy or slight nerfs have made it entirely worthless in favor of weapons with a far more balanced rule set. I believe the same thing is true for logis. Without a defined role, they'll either be overpowered into relevancy or generally worthless. I also believe there is very little place for a suit without significant combat potential in a 16v16 match-based game. I highly suggest everyone who wants to talk Logistics play some amount of planetside 2 and see how the medic and the engineer play. I would not at all call them overpowered but they have largely the same combat potential that primary classes do while having a niche support focus. The whole formula works really well and feels far better than any of my past experiences as logi in Dust. I would say that logi does need to be homogenized, a lot. We also need to stop having logis focus on equipment that does not make sense for a support type role. Remote explosives don't belong on a min logi and conversely I don't believe that uplinks belong on the Amarr logi. The other half of this argument is that racial tanking styles can certainly be its own form of variety. What if I want to have a rep tool focus but I don't want to play Minmatar? Atm I really cannot. Or what if I want to get in the front lines and drop ammo and be combat support but do so with an Armor buffer amarr suit? Well I really cannot as nanohives are the Caldari focus. Additionally, I just don't believe that you should be forced to skill into a race you may not like for a specific functionality. Assaults really don't face that issue, all assault suits can still shoot people. All sentinels can still wield and HMG or FG, all scouts can cloak, but if you want the true potential of a piece of equipment you must skill into a suit you may not really want to play. I hate the minmatar tanking style and the general feel of those suits and so that means I miss out on a massive bonus to rep tools as a result? Where is my 'Guardian'? Now, why is this all important in a thread about slot progression? Well, slot progression is based largely on the role and focus a suit which is defined, almost entirely in dust, by its suit bonuses. We need to discuss suit bonuses before slot progression can make sense and be balanced. In lieu of all of the above, I would still say remove the Amarr Logi sidearm. All racial styles of a specific class should have predictable and consistent progression.
The Eristic Art.of.Death 1	Posted - 2015.06.05 05:00:00 - [240] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? The cal logi also needs some love in the bonus area. +3% per level to HP restored on injectors in addition to the hive bonus? (Would say 4%, but wouldn't want to make the State Kaal needle pointless.) Instantly makes it more useful in the combat zone, especially keeping high HP suits up and pushing. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.

Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.05 14:27:00 - [241] - Quote The Eristic wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? The cal logi also needs some love in the bonus area. +3% per level to HP restored on injectors in addition to the hive bonus? (Would say 4%, but wouldn't want to make the State Kaal needle pointless.) Instantly makes it more useful in the combat zone, especially keeping high HP suits up and pushing. I say it again: nanohive bonuses are useless. Nobody wants them, nobody needs them cause every 1 can carry 6 nanohives and replenish ammo allready fast enough with X-3 quantum nanohives. I want that the cal. logi gets a complete revamp on its bonus. It should be the logi which aids shield suits in combat. It should be the exact mirror to the min. logi with a shield recharger tool instead of a reptool. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 204	Posted - 2015.06.05 17:22:00 - [242] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: The Eristic wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? The cal logi also needs some love in the bonus area. +3% per level to HP restored on injectors in addition to the hive bonus? (Would say 4%, but wouldn't want to make the State Kaal needle pointless.) Instantly makes it more useful in the combat zone, especially keeping high HP suits up and pushing. I say it again: nanohive bonuses are useless. Nobody wants them, nobody needs them cause every 1 can carry 6 nanohives and replenish ammo allready fast enough with X-3 quantum nanohives. I want that the cal. logi gets a complete revamp on its bonus. It should be the logi which aids shield suits in combat. It should be the exact mirror to the min. logi with a shield recharger tool instead of a reptool. We heard you but his suggestion was fine. The Cal logi is the needle king. He sticks you and you stand up almost completely healed. As a heavy sometimes, I would love that. Then he has a logi role in combat. Tier 5 logi with standard 20% life needle would pick you up to 35% right off the bat. That is huge. A shield rep sounds kind of stupid IMO. I here people clamor for it, but what happens when the shield falls or gets fluxed. You stand around and wait for his shields to come back online with your useless shield rep tool in hand? Shields have their use currently. You are going back into the shield versus armor debate of the past. With the team chat gone, we need to really start leveraging the squad finder!
rayakalj9 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 18	Posted - 2015.06.06 03:55:00 - [243] - Quote I've been using the caldari logistics for 2 years now and ever since the nerf on the suit i have hard time playing it, now i thank you for finding sometime to look into it. i suggest that the caldari should sacrifice the lows for a extra equipment and also out of every logi races caldari should have the highest cpu than other logis and also has the lowest pg but however i disagree what you were saying about downgrading the light weapon slot to a sidearm it really damage the logi entirely i don't see the point in that. Now i don't care what some of you people keep on crying about logi shouldn't do this or logi shouldn't do that what am trying to say here is that everybody should know that in every logi race has a own role like for caldari logi role is to fall behind team mates, cover their backs and support them with ammo and repairing nanohives born jamaican
rayakalj9 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 18	Posted - 2015.06.06 04:01:00 - [244] - Quote Oh yeah one more thing sir rattati could you kindly please buff the recharge rate on the caldari logistcs cause right now currently its really bad born jamaican
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.06 08:50:00 - [245] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: The Eristic wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? The cal logi also needs some love in the bonus area. +3% per level to HP restored on injectors in addition to the hive bonus? (Would say 4%, but wouldn't want to make the State Kaal needle pointless.) Instantly makes it more useful in the combat zone, especially keeping high HP suits up and pushing. I say it again: nanohive bonuses are useless. Nobody wants them, nobody needs them cause every 1 can carry 6 nanohives and replenish ammo allready fast enough with X-3 quantum nanohives. I want that the cal. logi gets a complete revamp on its bonus. It should be the logi which aids shield suits in combat. It should be the exact mirror to the min. logi with a shield recharger tool instead of a reptool. I actually quite like nanohive bonuses on my callogi, though the meta has greatly shifted so that everyone is packing around nanohives on their assaults, and no one carries needles because they live in permanent terror of the "dirty needle" hurting their KDR. For a generalized logistics bonus, I'd say that nanite injectors should pick people up with a bit more HP, this might cause people to be a bit more trusting of the needle again. Gallente logi: Currently fine - can be a bit starved for warpoints at times though, maybe simply give 1 warpoint per 4 seconds of detection per enemy, for detecting enemies with a scanner... not sure if this would be entirely balanced. Min logi: also currently fine. Amarr logi: uplink bonus is very powerful, but can be lost when dead (I feel this is emergent gameplay, but people could argue about this forever) Cal logi: Its current bonus is good... if people stay in one place at all. With the large buffs to carried nanohives the cal logi has its work cut out for it in the morass of relevancy, I'd suggest dialing back the amount of carried nanohives back on all other suits and giving the callogi a 20% increase in the amount of carried nanohives per level. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.06 14:30:00 - [246] - Quote Needles? Great now we are stepping to the 100% useless grounds. We allready have 80% needles which is more then enough. Needles are only there if its safe to pick some 1 up that died in battle while having a reptool which heals shields is usefull in allmost every scenario. Pathetic that people still claim that the nanohive bonus is a good thing. Ask every decent corp and they will tell you that cal. logis are 100% useless and not needed for neither pub matches and PC matches. I could just squeeze gauged ishukone nanohives on a gallente logi together with 3 active scanners and i would be a 100X more valuable asset to the team then the silly Caldari Logi and its hive bonus. Gal. Logi with 3 scanners and gauged nanohives= 9 nanohives+perma scans Caldari logi with 3 different nanohives= troll fit for idiots Dont believe me? If a good corp is looking for ringers and you volounteer with a proto cal. logi suit nobody in their right mind would pick you. Every other role in the game is more valuable then the caldari logi and yes that includes the amarr scout. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.06 20:52:00 - [247] - Quote CalLogi hive bonus is awesome. Pubs, FW or PC. Do you need to know what you're doing beyond leash somebody and follow them around? Yes. Extra needle bonus I agree would be dumb since there already are 100% needles available to anyone who can carry equipment. Maybe a worthwhile buff to the CalLogi bonus would be the ability to deploy one extra hive past the usual limit per level? In addition to the existing nanite/bubble size bonus currently in place. So if the normal max deployment is 2 then the Cal would do 2+3 more as bonus (std, adv, pro, 1 each) for a total of 5 out and available at once. Hell, make the bonus applicable to ALL deployables, so extra hives, links, re's AND proxes maybe. EDIT: Or how about (if possible) Cal deployables got some sort of extra flux resistance? They're "the shield" race so it'd kinda work lore-wise that the CalLogi can "build" a shield buffer for all its deployables which would basically equate to extra flux resistance. Yeah, anyone can drop a hive but only the CalLogi can crank up their utility and survivability. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.07 07:22:00 - [248] - Quote El just spitballing, but something like say, 18% resistance to splash damage for nanohives per level for callogi? So direct hits would still take them out, but at level 5 callogi they only take 10% damage from grenades/mass drivers (Flux damage is absolutely insane though, so this might need tweaking yet). And bright cloud, maybe lay off being quite so argumentative and willing to attack others or call them names, lets have a civil discussion here rather than just calling other people **ING IDIOTS! Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.07 14:15:00 - [249] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: El just spitballing, but something like say, 18% resistance to splash damage for nanohives per level for callogi? So direct hits would still take them out, but at level 5 callogi they only take 10% damage from grenades/mass drivers (Flux damage is absolutely insane though, so this might need tweaking yet). And bright cloud, maybe lay off being quite so argumentative and willing to attack others or call them names, lets have a civil discussion here rather than just calling other people ****ING IDIOTS! A civil discussion can only be achieved with people who play competetive. 90% of the players that give feedback in this thread probs havent played a single PC match or are playing in the scrub bracket of the matchmaking. You can come back if you at least achieve a weekly K/D of 3 with the current matchmaking without redline sniping. Having a bonus to a equipment that forces you to not leave a area is bad cause the game is dynamic while the cal. logi bonus forces you to play stationary which is stupid cause it conflicts with the general consens that shields are about mobility. Plus the repping nanohives only benefit armor tanked suits while doing 0 at all for caldari and only marginally benefit for minmatarr suits. Reptools are a defensive and offensive force multiplyer for heavys and assaults. Shields dont have that and need to retreat constantly to regen their HP while armor tanked suits can regen while still beeing under fire. This feature should not be exclusive to armor. And to top my argument reptools can be used at wish and are not a consumable equipment like nanohives. Oh and dont use a rep hive if you can use a reptool to heal somebody, i could heal some 1 with a militia reptool faster then with a proto rep hive. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
thehellisgoingon MONSTER SYNERGY 494	Posted - 2015.06.07 17:23:00 - [250] - Quote I just got a Brutor logistics from opening 1 strongbox. Thought all the logis in here should know

Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 03:44:00 - [251] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: A civil discussion can only be achieved with people who play competetive. 90% of the players that give feedback in this thread probs havent played a single PC match or are playing in the scrub bracket of the matchmaking. You can come back if you at least achieve a weekly K/D of 3 with the current matchmaking without redline sniping. This is outright incorrect and serves only to paint you as an idiot. Thanks for holding up a sign that says "Ignore me / I'm a judgemental prick" though. All constructive feedback has value - not necessarily EQUAL value, but it has value. No matter who it comes from. Being good at a videogame is not a requirement of being intelligent or being capable of critical thought... and this thread isn't asking for people to be good at dust, it's asking for intelligent discussion and critical thought. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.08 04:01:00 - [252] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: EDIT: Or how about (if possible) Cal deployables got some sort of extra flux resistance? They're "the shield" race so it'd kinda work lore-wise that the CalLogi can "build" a shield buffer for all its deployables which would basically equate to extra flux resistance. Yeah, anyone can drop a hive but only the CalLogi can crank up their utility and survivability. This is an incredibly ironic statement consider flux damage is more or less EM damage.....and Caldari of all the races have the worst shield resistance values against EM........ "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.06.08 04:09:00 - [253] - Quote True Adamance wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: EDIT: Or how about (if possible) Cal deployables got some sort of extra flux resistance? They're "the shield" race so it'd kinda work lore-wise that the CalLogi can "build" a shield buffer for all its deployables which would basically equate to extra flux resistance. Yeah, anyone can drop a hive but only the CalLogi can crank up their utility and survivability. This is an incredibly ironic statement consider flux damage is more or less EM damage.....and Caldari of all the races have the worst shield resistance values against EM........ That's why I wanted the flux grenade to go to the Amarr and I want Gallente to have a Molotav Cocktail type grenade.... You Trying to hack Alpha? *Throws Freedom Margarita and effect lingers for 7 seconds. TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.08 04:16:00 - [254] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: EDIT: Or how about (if possible) Cal deployables got some sort of extra flux resistance? They're "the shield" race so it'd kinda work lore-wise that the CalLogi can "build" a shield buffer for all its deployables which would basically equate to extra flux resistance. Yeah, anyone can drop a hive but only the CalLogi can crank up their utility and survivability. This is an incredibly ironic statement consider flux damage is more or less EM damage.....and Caldari of all the races have the worst shield resistance values against EM........ That's why I wanted the flux grenade to go to the Amarr and I want Gallente to have a Molotav Cocktail type grenade.... You Trying to hack Alpha? Throws Freedom Margarita and effect lingers for 7 seconds. Flashbangs ****! Light > EM Logistics something something something...... "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.06.08 04:26:00 - [255] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: EDIT: Or how about (if possible) Cal deployables got some sort of extra flux resistance? They're "the shield" race so it'd kinda work lore-wise that the CalLogi can "build" a shield buffer for all its deployables which would basically equate to extra flux resistance. Yeah, anyone can drop a hive but only the CalLogi can crank up their utility and survivability. This is an incredibly ironic statement consider flux damage is more or less EM damage.....and Caldari of all the races have the worst shield resistance values against EM........ That's why I wanted the flux grenade to go to the Amarr and I want Gallente to have a Molotav Cocktail type grenade.... You Trying to hack Alpha? Throws Freedom Margarita and effect lingers for 7 seconds. Flashbangs ****! Light > EM Logistics something something something...... Oh wait....this is a Logistics thread! Thread Derail level 5 yo TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.08 06:52:00 - [256] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: A civil discussion can only be achieved with people who play competetive. 90% of the players that give feedback in this thread probs havent played a single PC match or are playing in the scrub bracket of the matchmaking. You can come back if you at least achieve a weekly K/D of 3 with the current matchmaking without redline sniping. This is outright incorrect and serves only to paint you as an idiot. Thanks for holding up a sign that says "Ignore me / I'm a judgemental prick" though. All constructive feedback has value - not necessarily EQUAL value, but it has value. No matter who it comes from. Being good at a videogame is not a requirement of being intelligent or being capable of critical thought... and this thread isn't asking for people to be good at dust, it's asking for intelligent discussion and critical thought. Bright Cloud wrote: Having a bonus to a equipment that forces you to not leave a area is bad cause the game is dynamic while the cal. logi bonus forces you to play stationary which is stupid cause it conflicts with the general consens that shields are about mobility. Plus the repping nanohives only benefit armor tanked suits while doing 0 at all for caldari and only marginally benefit for minmatarr suits. Shields aren't about mobility though, I'm not sure where you got that from - they're about relatively quick turn arounds and to a lesser extent the ability to function independently. 'Stationary' play in itself has value because in order to win most matches you need to hold objectives... not chase an enemy to the red line and crush them. Most caldari suits that I play with also run a bit of armor (a plate or a reactive plate of some kind) and while their primary tank is on shields, they certainly enjoy having triage hives available to them. Bright Cloud wrote: Reptools are a defensive and offensive force multiplyer for heavys and assaults. Shields dont have that and need to retreat constantly to regen their HP while armor tanked suits can regen while still beeing under fire. This feature should not be exclusive to armor. And to top my argument reptools can be used at wish and are not a consumable equipment like nanohives. Oh and dont use a rep hive if you can use a reptool to heal somebody, i could heal some 1 with a militia reptool faster then with a proto rep hive. Reptools are a utility item, they can be used to repair any suit, not just heavies or assaults. I don't have much disagreement with your statement about shields needing some sort of ability to recover under fire (an inhibition value that ignores low damage amounts maybe?). Unless you're using proto rep tools, they can only be used on one person at a time. A wiyrkomi triage hive can heal as many people as it has nanites and will fit in it. Just stop arguing you put plates on a caldari suit which is allready enough of a indicator that you are a scrub. If you want to armor tank then chose gallente or amarr. And ofcourse shields are about mobility thats why kincats and kardio regulators are LOWSLOT MODULES. They enhance your sprint speed and stamina. What you think amarr assaults run usually? kincats and shields not bricktank to the max like a scrublord as yourself. About "every feedback has value": no it doesnt, veteran players with alot of gameplay experience are the main group which should be heard. The scrubs should take a number and wait till the important things that those people pushing for are accomplished. Prime example of stupid feedback can be seen in this very thread where the devs actually play with the thought to give logis only sidearms. Yeah right that idea was born from morons for morons. None of the decent playerbase asked for this nor is it necessary. Triage hive bonus is useless. Ofcourse it reps every 1 inside of it but that makes them the perfect target for a core locus grenade which could mean you lost 3 players to that silly thing. While the min. logi can sit over 20m away from its rep target and is with that near impossible to grenade. Good players know every issue about the game and bypass it by adjusting their playstyle. Thats why in PC matches you allmost never see caldari suits due to their garbage damage output and their heavy cannot be supported with reps. The elite group figures out the next optimal thing to run after each patch in less then a day. Thats what makes them competetive. Every 1 else just copy pastes their playstyles and calls it a day. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.06.08 07:47:00 - [257] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: EDIT: Or how about (if possible) Cal deployables got some sort of extra flux resistance?. 50% per level nanohive HP. Screw resists. Just make it so they can eat a grenade before going pop. The enemies of God stand broken before us. The light of the Reclaiming shines over them! 12/13/14 Never forget
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 08:03:00 - [258] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: 1)Just stop arguing you put plates on a caldari suit which is allready enough of a indicator that you are a scrub. If you want to armor tank then chose gallente or amarr. And ofcourse shields are about mobility thats why kincats and kardio regulators are LOWSLOT MODULES. They enhance your sprint speed and stamina. What you think amarr assaults run usually? kincats and shields not bricktank to the max like a scrublord as yourself. 2)About "every feedback has value": no it doesnt, veteran players with alot of gameplay experience are the main group which should be heard. The scrubs should take a number and wait till the important things that those people pushing for are accomplished. Prime example of stupid feedback can be seen in this very thread where the devs actually play with the thought to give logis only sidearms. Yeah right that idea was born from morons for morons. None of the decent playerbase asked for this nor is it necessary. 3)Triage hive bonus is useless. Ofcourse it reps every 1 inside of it but that makes them the perfect target for a core locus grenade which could mean you lost 3 players to that silly thing. While the min. logi can sit over 20m away from its rep target and is with that near impossible to grenade. 4)Good players know every issue about the game and bypass it by adjusting their playstyle. Thats why in PC matches you allmost never see caldari suits due to their garbage damage output and their heavy cannot be supported with reps. The elite group figures out the next optimal thing to run after each patch in less then a day. Thats what makes them competetive. Every 1 else just copy pastes their playstyles and calls it a day. 1) Wait, you thought I was talking about myself? Lol. Even if we were talking about myself you realize that there are values between the extremes of "ALL ARMOR PLATES" or "NO ARMOR PLATES". Shield regulators are also low slot modules, as are profile damps and hack speed - by your logic shield tanks are about hacking fast and being unscannable. I also see we're already beginning the namecalling early with this post eh? 2) This is special pleading. Everyone who plays this game has the right to be heard and provide feedback, not just the 'elite'... particularly because the elite are only concerned with the elite. With this mentality [flavor of the month thing] would never, ever be nerfed because according to the 'elite' nothing is wrong with it. 3)This is an opinion, followed by a contrived situation. I could as easily say that 'rep tools are stupid because you can just kill the logi, but a well placed triage hive continues to rep even if the logi is dead or isn't around!'. You haven't made a strong point here. 4) This is largely too dumb to address or it doesn't make any actual points. That said though, I was under the impression that the cal sentinel was relatively popular in PC due to its resistance to the hmg (though it was outshone by the amarr sentinel that could stack a lot more hp), they both had pretty decent representation. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 210	Posted - 2015.06.09 19:39:00 - [259] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: 4) This is largely too dumb to address or it doesn't make any actual points. That said though, I was under the impression that the cal sentinel was relatively popular in PC due to its resistance to the hmg (though it was outshone by the amarr sentinel that could stack a lot more hp), they both had pretty decent representation. Proto heavy here, who has done many PCs. The above statement is slightly correct. I ran the Amarr because I used to be a heavy killer by managing my Six Kin's heat like a boss and leveraging head shots on other heavies. The Gal and Min heavy were the garbage there, due to their lack of durability or true mobility. The main reason I saw Cal Heavies was due to dmg mods, no logi needed, and speed. Cal Heavies could stack 2 complex dmg mods, 2 extenders and not require any help from a logi. Then you could get 2 hmgs to push down the heavies because rep tools can't out perform dmg 1v1 even the flux. Plus you put on armor repair and you are down for 30 seconds and by the time you finish the reload you are close to your EHP again. Just watch out for the flux! The other reason for using a Cal heavy is that they can jump hamster curbs. My Amarr all plated down can barely move around and when charging a point or going up stairs that extra speed can get you to cover to reload and let your shields come up. Meanwhile the amarr would be in your dust. Mobility also helped with the RE runs. With the team chat gone, we need to really start leveraging the squad finder!
Alcina Nektaria KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 27	Posted - 2015.06.16 17:42:00 - [260] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Part of me really likes this idea, but then there is the little voice in my head that screams in protest. You would be pinning a more AV role to a Logi and leaving them almost defensless unless at a range, minus the shotgun. Maybe if you are looking to make the logis poopy with Rifles, you should make a new weapon, possibly similar to a taser or that shoots a charge to disable the enemy electronic system, rendering their weapons useless for a couple seconds to get far enough away. Just an idea. Though you may want to make it a new class of weapon only available to logi so that it is not abused. *KEQ Diplomat* Gallente Loyalist ... Come at me bro.

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.06.17 03:43:00 - [261] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Part of me really likes this idea, but then there is the little voice in my head that screams in protest. You would be pinning a more AV role to a Logi and leaving them almost defensless unless at a range, minus the shotgun. Maybe if you are looking to make the logis poopy with Rifles, you should make a new weapon, possibly similar to a taser or that shoots a charge to disable the enemy electronic system, rendering their weapons useless for a couple seconds to get far enough away. Just an idea. Though you may want to make it a new class of weapon only available to logi so that it is not abused. I get what he's trying to say but without some heavy running and addition to more weapons that probably wouldn't work out well. Why would a Logistics need a sniper rifle though? Or a PLC? I get Mass Driver and LR. Those are suppression weapons clearly. Shotguns? As long as your squad can take out further out targets that get too close with your shotgun so I guess that's fine. PLC and Sniper? Maybe if the PLC had a specific anti infantry variant and definitely not a sniper. Got lets not bring useless sniper logics back that just sat on 6 Triage Nanohives in the redline doing nothing for his team. Swarms? Why? Mass Drivers for artillery suppression and the LR is the closest thing we have to the purpose of a Light machine gun. Suppressive fire from down range. We need more weapons like that really. Honestly, in my rambling my biggest issue is still wondering what in the world is the purpose of the Commando? TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.17 07:21:00 - [262] - Quote True Adamance wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: EDIT: Or how about (if possible) Cal deployables got some sort of extra flux resistance? They're "the shield" race so it'd kinda work lore-wise that the CalLogi can "build" a shield buffer for all its deployables which would basically equate to extra flux resistance. Yeah, anyone can drop a hive but only the CalLogi can crank up their utility and survivability. This is an incredibly ironic statement consider flux damage is more or less EM damage.....and Caldari of all the races have the worst shield resistance values against EM........ Well, I'm hopefully obviously using the lore very loosely. I have very limited lore knowledge (obviously?) and tbh the suggestion reads as an off-the-cuff idea because it was. The "lore" qualifier suggestion was exactly that, a suggestion as a qualifier for the idea. If it's incorrect somehow no problem, we'll adjust the qualifier so it works. If the idea itself works. Which based on a couple of the other responses seems like it could. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.17 07:26:00 - [263] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: EDIT: Or how about (if possible) Cal deployables got some sort of extra flux resistance? They're "the shield" race so it'd kinda work lore-wise that the CalLogi can "build" a shield buffer for all its deployables which would basically equate to extra flux resistance. Yeah, anyone can drop a hive but only the CalLogi can crank up their utility and survivability. This is an incredibly ironic statement consider flux damage is more or less EM damage.....and Caldari of all the races have the worst shield resistance values against EM........ That's why I wanted the flux grenade to go to the Amarr and I want Gallente to have a Molotav Cocktail type grenade.... You Trying to hack Alpha? *Throws Freedom Margarita and effect lingers for 7 seconds. I like margaritas. And throwing bottles at people. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.17 07:34:00 - [264] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: El just spitballing, but something like say, 18% resistance to splash damage for nanohives per level for callogi? So direct hits would still take them out, but at level 5 callogi they only take 10% damage from grenades/mass drivers (Flux damage is absolutely insane though, so this might need tweaking yet). And bright cloud, maybe lay off being quite so argumentative and willing to attack others or call them names, lets have a civil discussion here rather than just calling other people ****ING IDIOTS! Sure, I was just throwing that idea out there and didn't really think any numbers through but w/e can be agreed on and is useful I'm down for. Personally I like the idea of being able to have more active deployables out better but apparently I'm in some extremely small majority of logis who knows how to rep AND reinforce. And yes I also recognize the OP potential being able to have some ridiculous number of say triage hives or re's out. Immortality doorways and halls, serious minefields, re's forever.... Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.17 08:02:00 - [265] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Part of me really likes this idea, but then there is the little voice in my head that screams in protest. You would be pinning a more AV role to a Logi and leaving them almost defensless unless at a range, minus the shotgun. Maybe if you are looking to make the logis poopy with Rifles, you should make a new weapon, possibly similar to a taser or that shoots a charge to disable the enemy electronic system, rendering their weapons useless for a couple seconds to get far enough away. Just an idea. Though you may want to make it a new class of weapon only available to logi so that it is not abused. I get what he's trying to say but without some heavy running and addition to more weapons that probably wouldn't work out well. Why would a Logistics need a sniper rifle though? Or a PLC? I get Mass Driver and LR. Those are suppression weapons clearly. Shotguns? As long as your squad can take out further out targets that get too close with your shotgun so I guess that's fine. PLC and Sniper? Maybe if the PLC had a specific anti infantry variant and definitely not a sniper. Got lets not bring useless sniper logics back that just sat on 6 Triage Nanohives in the redline doing nothing for his team. Swarms? Why? Mass Drivers for artillery suppression and the LR is the closest thing we have to the purpose of a Light machine gun. Suppressive fire from down range. We need more weapons like that really. Honestly, in my rambling my biggest issue is still wondering what in the world is the purpose of the Commando? PLC on a Logi is awesome. I mostly use it on my Amarrs but I'll run it with any of them. Its extremely versatile being anti-infantry AND anti-vehicle and when a heavy/logi blob watches their own be immolated by a PLC (my allotek before a lot of the applicable bonusing already does 1900 some-odd damage) they slow down and scatter quick. I felt bad in one of the PCs I did a couple weeks ago, I had an overwatching postion and a friendly heavy down below me got bored and started sending some hmg bursts at me, keeping me frosty I'll assume. Well, I sent a couple un-actually aimed plc rounds his way and sure as **** hit him with one (dude had been shooting at me, mind you) killing him. He was not happy. But thats the power of a PLC, even for a Logi. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Alcina Nektaria KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 27	Posted - 2015.06.17 18:18:00 - [266] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Part of me really likes this idea, but then there is the little voice in my head that screams in protest. You would be pinning a more AV role to a Logi and leaving them almost defensless unless at a range, minus the shotgun. Maybe if you are looking to make the logis poopy with Rifles, you should make a new weapon, possibly similar to a taser or that shoots a charge to disable the enemy electronic system, rendering their weapons useless for a couple seconds to get far enough away. Just an idea. Though you may want to make it a new class of weapon only available to logi so that it is not abused. I get what he's trying to say but without some heavy running and addition to more weapons that probably wouldn't work out well. Why would a Logistics need a sniper rifle though? Or a PLC? I get Mass Driver and LR. Those are suppression weapons clearly. Shotguns? As long as your squad can take out further out targets that get too close with your shotgun so I guess that's fine. PLC and Sniper? Maybe if the PLC had a specific anti infantry variant and definitely not a sniper. Got lets not bring useless sniper logics back that just sat on 6 Triage Nanohives in the redline doing nothing for his team. Swarms? Why? Mass Drivers for artillery suppression and the LR is the closest thing we have to the purpose of a Light machine gun. Suppressive fire from down range. We need more weapons like that really. Honestly, in my rambling my biggest issue is still wondering what in the world is the purpose of the Commando? PLC on a Logi is awesome. I mostly use it on my Amarrs but I'll run it with any of them. Its extremely versatile being anti-infantry AND anti-vehicle and when a heavy/logi blob watches their own be immolated by a PLC (my allotek before a lot of the applicable bonusing already does 1900 some-odd damage) they slow down and scatter quick. I felt bad in one of the PCs I did a couple weeks ago, I had an overwatching postion and a friendly heavy down below me got bored and started sending some hmg bursts at me, keeping me frosty I'll assume. Well, I sent a couple un-actually aimed plc rounds his way and sure as **** hit him with one (dude had been shooting at me, mind you) killing him. He was not happy. But thats the power of a PLC, even for a Logi. My whole point was that the only close range weapon suggested was the shotgun. Everything else was either a range weapon or anti-vehicle. And Kirk, you are 100% correct, Sniper Logis make absolutely no freaking sense what so ever. The problem with the Mass Driver is that, it is a range weapon. Logis are so weak unless you tank them that you would just blow yourself up with one, and same thing wtih a PLC. Though, with a PLC you either are good at using them or you aren't. Twice I have personally skilled into PLC prof 5 and both times I sucked almost as badly as I suck at tanking (which is off the charts bad) The whole thing with giving a ranged weapon to a Logi is that it makes little to no sense. Figure; as a Logi you are getting up in the action, supporting your team with equipment, needles, scans, reps, uplinks etc and you need a weapon to defend yourself. I mean unless sidearms are given to all Logis, in which case, sure give a bonus to long range weapons. *KEQ Diplomat* Gallente Loyalist ... Come at me bro.
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.18 13:16:00 - [267] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. Maybe it's my OCD, but no. This would just be re-introducing the asymmetry that existed with the Amarr logi all over again. These are logi suits; keep it focused on the equipment and let them have a light weapon to do some shooty shooty when they need to. And why should the race that has a long range combat philosophy only have a sidearm? The slow blade penetrates the shield.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.06.18 16:08:00 - [268] - Quote sabre prime wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Why not take downgrade the light weapon from CA to sidearm and leave the EQ? that's what I was thinking. Maybe it's my OCD, but no. This would just be re-introducing the asymmetry that existed with the Amarr logi all over again. These are logi suits; keep it focused on the equipment and let them have a light weapon to do some shooty shooty when they need to. And why should the race that has a long range combat philosophy only have a sidearm? Not that I'm agreeing with you but you can still have a long range philosophy on a closer ranged weapon. It's just their take on it. Take the Bolt Pistol and Magsec for example, they are the longest ranged sidearms in the game built for more CQC combat than their other weapons are. Comparatively a Gallente Long Range Weapon wouldn't have as long of a range than a Caldari long range weapon. It's all about the races take on it. It'd be pretty silly for a race not to come up with a sidearm or close range weapon because they like long range, just like its silly for a short ranged race not to have a long range weapon. Lets say I took America and got rid of all our infantry weapon development because we are starting to prefer the use of drones for nonconventional warfare. TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!


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Caldari Loyalist

Caldari Loyalist

Caldari Loyalist

Gallente Loyalist ... Come at me bro.

Gallente Loyalist ... Come at me bro.