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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 17:39:00 - [151] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: All logi's should have 8 [module] slots, a grenade, a light weapon, NO SIDEARM and four equipment slots. Amen. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 837	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:08:00 - [152] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Well, Rattati was looking for a way to discourage Light Rifles. If you gimp the range on the rifiles, you would see a lot more support weapons. Still not the way to go... I still firmly believe that Logistics should have higher regen with the HP values they currently have. I agree about the defensive power. I just think they need an offensive tradeoff. The current Assault bonuses are passable, but the new logi slots + speed are looking pretty exciting. I could carry REs AND Nanohives...for more REs lol. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:11:00 - [153] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Well, Rattati was looking for a way to discourage Light Rifles. If you gimp the range on the rifiles, you would see a lot more support weapons. Still not the way to go... I still firmly believe that Logistics should have higher regen with the HP values they currently have. I agree about the defensive power. I just think they need an offensive tradeoff. The current Assault bonuses are passable, but the new logi slots + speed are looking pretty exciting. I could carry REs AND Nanohives...for more REs lol. There shouldn't be a trade off in that manner. Assaults should get some bonus for, you know, assaulting. Maybe even TWO grenade slots. Edit: Plus they have higher base HP to fit HP modules or biotics. Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:11:00 - [154] - Quote I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles When you lose small mind you free your life....
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:40:00 - [155] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Can we just make the repair tool it's own weapon type with it's own slot (and a shield type of course) and give it EVE level reps that can out pace multiple sources of incoming PDS? It'd swap a LW slot for that any day. To me the tactical value of real sustainable rep levels and no weapon is vastly superior to the status of having a mediocre weapon selection (but still weapons) and current reps. The issue with the weapons listed above being combined with support play is that they don't currently synergize. MD and LR lend themselves to setting up shop somewhere and providing area denial/zone of control. That action in and of itself is support in many lights no question, but if you're camped in a single (usually high) area you can't support your squad unless you are either A) defending a vital uplink spot, or B) they are camped right along side you. Shotgun is a viable weapon, and I enjoy running it, but I run it on my scout fit (or maybe my Min Assault if the mood strikes me) because most of the time it requires that you have more speed that the opposing forces so you can hit and run/close the distance. Get caught at rifle range with a shotgun and you're dead (even in a tanked Sent) which is fine, that's the shotgun working as intended but it makes it not very viable unless the suit in question has above average move and sprint speeds. Speed aside it becomes more iffy for a support role because it's range and type of engagement is front line not over the shoulder or 'second rank' thus requiring a choice between positioning for possible weapon use or optimal support play. Sniper has the same problems as the MD and LR only magnified due to it's range profile and proper use case. Swarms on a suit with no sidearm is simply asking to die in most cases though having a fit like that in your back pocket only for dedicated AV work is useful, you need to have someone guard you or accept that you will burn the fit. PLC is likely the most viable of all of them, for those who have the skill set to use it, because it can mimic some of the OHK of the Shotgun and the AV of the swarms, plus has enough range to give a bit of area denial, but it is far from an easy weapon to use leaving most players likely better off running an SMG or Blot Pistol for general utility. All of that being said I'm not opposed to the Assault class being more effective with rifles, that actually makes a lot of sense to me, what if the dps of the rifles themselves was pulled back somewhat and the assaults gained an added damage bonus to their racial weapons? CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 839	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:41:00 - [156] - Quote One of the original logi concepts was the trading of firepower for logistical force multiplication. The SMG was slightly OP for a while because it was imagined to be a logistics primary weapon (Similar story for a swarm launcher assault...like some other games.). These days it isn't really practical to use a sidearm as primary anti-infantry weapon, but a proper suit bonus could buff sidearm damage/range and the logi could still retain an unbuffed Light Weapon slot. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
Al the destroyer 0uter.Heaven 393	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:04:00 - [157] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Can we just make the repair tool it's own weapon type with it's own slot (and a shield type of course) and give it EVE level reps that can out pace multiple sources of incoming PDS? It'd swap a LW slot for that any day. To me the tactical value of real sustainable rep levels and no weapon is vastly superior to the status of having a mediocre weapon selection (but still weapons) and current reps. The issue with the weapons listed above being combined with support play is that they don't currently synergize. MD and LR lend themselves to setting up shop somewhere and providing area denial/zone of control. That action in and of itself is support in many lights no question, but if you're camped in a single (usually high) area you can't support your squad unless you are either A) defending a vital uplink spot, or B) they are camped right along side you. Shotgun is a viable weapon, and I enjoy running it, but I run it on my scout fit (or maybe my Min Assault if the mood strikes me) because most of the time it requires that you have more speed that the opposing forces so you can hit and run/close the distance. Get caught at rifle range with a shotgun and you're dead (even in a tanked Sent) which is fine, that's the shotgun working as intended but it makes it not very viable unless the suit in question has above average move and sprint speeds. Speed aside it becomes more iffy for a support role because it's range and type of engagement is front line not over the shoulder or 'second rank' thus requiring a choice between positioning for possible weapon use or optimal support play. Sniper has the same problems as the MD and LR only magnified due to it's range profile and proper use case. Swarms on a suit with no sidearm is simply asking to die in most cases though having a fit like that in your back pocket only for dedicated AV work is useful, you need to have someone guard you or accept that you will burn the fit. PLC is likely the most viable of all of them, for those who have the skill set to use it, because it can mimic some of the OHK of the Shotgun and the AV of the swarms, plus has enough range to give a bit of area denial, but it is far from an easy weapon to use leaving most players likely better off running an SMG or Blot Pistol for general utility. All of that being said I'm not opposed to the Assault class being more effective with rifles, that actually makes a lot of sense to me, what if the dps of the rifles themselves was pulled back somewhat and the assaults gained an added damage bonus to their racial weapons? I wouldn't take the actual weapons literally more the idea we could argue the weapons later it was the idea of logi specific weapons that I liked
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:21:00 - [158] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Al the destroyer wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Weapon range is an extremely important factor. A 25% reduction in weapons range on a logi would stop the slayer logi FoTM. I'm not sure this would be the right direction to go but I see where you're coming from. With buffed speed, eHP, fittings, and a sidearm I'll be a part of the hoards of slayer logis. I asked myself what I would need to keep me in a proper Slayer Assault, with it's paltry reload bonus, and the answer is a disincentive to use light weapons on a logi. I would also favor the sidearm only option if it came with some sort of buff...like dual sidearms and a sidearm range bonus. A Scrambler Pistol and a Bolt Pistol combo would be fun. I don't do that on the Assault any more because of the range handicap vs Light Weapons. Sidearm only is bad IMO for a number of reasons. Either leave the logi with the ability to use a basic rifle or skip the weapons entirely and let logi be a full on support with no weapons but very potent reps (and add the option to bring shield reps). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:22:00 - [159] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows This would be a nerf to most Logis would it not? Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Giving Assault an advantage, since total slots on logi are 2 more at proto. Well as a personal opinion, i think the differentiation between the roles, or that advantage, should be tied to secondary attributes (namely bonuses and things like a Scout's Cloak or a Commando's two weapons) rather than the defensive slots themselves. I think perhaps what is truly lacking here is "What can the Assault do that a Logistics suit will never be able to do?" and that should really be the primary focus here when trying to differentiate the two in ways the other cannot emulate. I mean if you think about it, the Assault is really the only specialty suit that doesn't have it's own gimick. Sentinels = Heavy Weapon, Commando = 2 Light Weapons, Scouts = Cloaks, Logis = Equipment. If we want to make the Assaults shine, they need to have something special that no other suit can fit/replicate. I have always felt that Assaults should have a damage bonus. My thinking is that a rifle should be more effective in the hands of a combat class such as Assault and Commando than in a support class such as Logistics. Not enough of a Damage bonus to make the logi infective in comparison, just a small (10% at level 5) to make the combat classes better at combat. Scouts and Sentinels don't need damage bonuses, because they use high damage weapons (Nova Knife, Shotgun, HMG, Forge Gun). Having Scouts or Sentinels do less damage than Assaults or Commandos using rifles is fine, because those classes are not designed for using rifles. These guys are making a lot of sense to me. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:27:00 - [160] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Songs of Seraphim wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Well, Rattati was looking for a way to discourage Light Rifles. If you gimp the range on the rifiles, you would see a lot more support weapons. Still not the way to go... I still firmly believe that Logistics should have higher regen with the HP values they currently have. I agree about the defensive power. I just think they need an offensive tradeoff. The current Assault bonuses are passable, but the new logi slots + speed are looking pretty exciting. I could carry REs AND Nanohives...for more REs lol. New Nanohive mechanic, hive will no longer resupply their owner. Totally spitballing here, actually let's not drag the thread off topic, anyone who's interested in responding to this idea please redirect to the ward. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:31:00 - [161] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 275	Posted - 2015.05.29 21:39:00 - [162] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.29 21:59:00 - [163] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! The Sidearm only is a nice middle ground between the two extremes of "I can do everything you can do, just better because I also have 3 additional equipment slots" and the "HA HA HA!! Just try to kill any of my teammates since my whole squad is dedicated Logi and we are repping them through everything you can throw at us (including Large Blasters)!!" I truly do not understand why people have such a problem with the role who is intended to be dedicated support being restricted to a Sidearm if any weapon. Another though occurs, reclass Logi Tools (Armor, Shield or potentially even Hybrid) as Equipment and a Sidearm (similar to how Proximity/Remote Explosives are Equipment but you spend SP on them through Weaponry rather than Dropsuit Upgrades) When you lose small mind you free your life....
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 857	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:25:00 - [164] - Quote Cal logi from open Beta. If we are placing "votes" mine goes to standard 8 slots at proto (5H & 3L) for logi if Rattati comes through on the CPU/PG balancing so I am not required to use a CPU module in low slot. I am OK with either 3/3/4 or 3/4/4 on equip (with Amarr getting 2/3/3 + sidearm) and adjusting slots at advanced to match. Amarr should be opposite at Proto (5L & 3H). Gal & Min seem good on slot layout so leave them as is. Hell no to the sidearm only. Why are we going to COMPLETELY gimp an entire role's ability to pew pew in a pew pew game? If you want to do a 5% damage reduction (spitballing the #) to all weapons, I am Ok with it. Make them less effective at killing than Assaults so Assaults are still the favored slayer suit but the logi can still contribute if necessary in a firefight. This SOMEWHAT ties in so I will add it. On the speed/HP Assault/Logi issue; give them the same base speed but give Assaults better stamina but less sprint and Logis better sprint but lower stamina. An Assault needs to be able to run for extended periods of time, move around, and engage targets. Logis need to be able to sprint across openings (I.e. short distances) to get to a teammate who is downed/injured/ammoless to assist them. If base speed is standardized and we simply adjusted the sprint/stamina, it would fit in with the requirements of each role. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:30:00 - [165] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: At least, know what the smart answer is before making sweeping changes. Well, that would be a change. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 275	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:31:00 - [166] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! The Sidearm only is a nice middle ground between the two extremes of "I can do everything you can do, just better because I also have 3 additional equipment slots" and the "HA HA HA!! Just try to kill any of my teammates since my whole squad is dedicated Logi and we are repping them through everything you can throw at us (including Large Blasters)!!" I truly do not understand why people have such a problem with the role who is intended to be dedicated support being restricted to a Sidearm if any weapon. Another though occurs, reclass Logi Tools (Armor, Shield or potentially even Hybrid) as Equipment and a Sidearm (similar to how Proximity/Remote Explosives are Equipment but you spend SP on them through Weaponry rather than Dropsuit Upgrades) Simple. because a Sidearm is insufficient for suppression of the enemy. Since a logi is required to run out and use their needle, they need strong enough "Teeth" to make the enemies think twice about getting out of cover to engage them. Many FPSes with an Incapacitated-Revive dynamic equip the medic class or style with Light Machine Guns specifically for this reason (Focusing on a general support role as well), while DUST has no real equivalent, the closest being the "Assault Rifle" class of weapons. Additionally, an issue with specifically the Drop Uplinks, is that the logi needs to be able to defend them-self while separate from the squad while placing them, and also be able to defend their uplinks (and nanohives for that matter) once deployed (although this isn't as much of an issue given the expanded equipment count...and tbh the Drop Uplink always seemed like something a Scout Suit should have a bonus to). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 830	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:12:00 - [167] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! The Sidearm only is a nice middle ground between the two extremes of "I can do everything you can do, just better because I also have 3 additional equipment slots" and the "HA HA HA!! Just try to kill any of my teammates since my whole squad is dedicated Logi and we are repping them through everything you can throw at us (including Large Blasters)!!" I truly do not understand why people have such a problem with the role who is intended to be dedicated support being restricted to a Sidearm if any weapon. Another though occurs, reclass Logi Tools (Armor, Shield or potentially even Hybrid) as Equipment and a Sidearm (similar to how Proximity/Remote Explosives are Equipment but you spend SP on them through Weaponry rather than Dropsuit Upgrades) Simple. because a Sidearm is insufficient for suppression of the enemy. Since a logi is required to run out and use their needle, they need strong enough "Teeth" to make the enemies think twice about getting out of cover to engage them. Many FPSes with an Incapacitated-Revive dynamic equip the medic class or style with Light Machine Guns specifically for this reason (Focusing on a general support role as well), while DUST has no real equivalent, the closest being the "Assault Rifle" class of weapons. Additionally, an issue with specifically the Drop Uplinks, is that the logi needs to be able to defend them-self while separate from the squad while placing them, and also be able to defend their uplinks (and nanohives for that matter) once deployed (although this isn't as much of an issue given the expanded equipment count...and tbh the Drop Uplink always seemed like something a Scout Suit should have a bonus to). ^ Yep. One of the 5R's of being a logi is Re-enforce. After battling the logi must survive to pick up team mates or hold them at bay until the ranks are refilled. Logis are not there to "kill better" but to have an equal chance is fair. Being a Logi is different from being a logibro. Logibro's are dedicated medic style players. A logi simply carries equipment. That may be for AV or tear mining. Using equipment is the role. Just as other classes have roles that they fill with the likes of Heavy Weapons or 2 light weapons, but in every class the weapons will function the same or better depending on the class. Logis deserve to be equipment focused and be able to use light weapons at their base values like every other class. Is it not enough that all the equipment slots must be filled? An added cost for the class overall that will forcibly reduce fitting capacity, regardless of CPU/PG changes. That means that even the logi that just wants to ka-pow-pow-in-the-facey-face every red dot still cant have a fitting that is on par with an Assault... ever. So, the player must choose lower stats and using equipment to carry out their operation of mayhem or choose a role that may be more suited to their play style. Light weapons remain, and the only weapon for a Logi. What many are speaking to here is the need for the Assault class to have a better bonus or further role definition. I agree that it needs attention. But this is not the thread for that. Bonus realignment comes after slot progression. This thread is for the slot progression of the logistics class. While comparing this class to others brings new ideas and insightful observations many expressions here lack... well its just trolling. Unless we want to consider allowing them to use Heavy weapons? I'd be game for that too, hell let the scouts in on it as well, but the assaults only get to use rifles, fair enough? Seriously, a sidearms as the only weapon for a logi is simply an overkill for the already poor stats of the logi. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:13:00 - [168] - Quote To maximize player freedom and reward/encourage logis to be logis: Make the Logi equipment efficacy bonus(e.g. Cross's) scale with # of equipment slots filled. 1 eq = 20%, 2 eq = 40%, 3 eq = 60%, 4 eq = 100% of efficacy bonus. Furthermore make the 4th equipment slot dual purpose: Equipment or sidearm. A logi choosing to run a sidearm would then be a lesser logi that their 4 equipment brothers, but still a better logi than any other suit. Give logis only moderate PG/CPU but hefty fitting bonuses for equipment. Means a mix of proto/adv modules for a proto logi. Running a proto light weapon, for example, would effectively force a weakened tank/ewar/mobility. 4/4/4 slot layout with light weapon & grenades. High walk/slower sprint multiplier/moderate strafe. PSN: RationalSpark
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 830	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:29:00 - [169] - Quote To the Slot layout of the Caldari and what to do. Rattati, you are correct that the The Cal Logi indeed suffers from an offense that has long been corrected. Over-corrected in fact. And I even have trouble building a survivable build without bricking it to hell. Poor stamina, poor shield stats, little armor stats and reps means that once it takes damage - if it survives - it is nearly out of the game. The time for repairs takes enough of a toll that it cannot be a front-line logi and stay with the team, it can't stand and deliver or even stand with its team mates. It sounds great that maybe it could drop its hives in pockets to help teammates and then run away... but in reality it becomes a prime target to extinguish and it can hardly sprint the distance to get behind cover. My builds are often similar to the APEX builds, being shield intensive, and the 4th slot for either CPU, Armor, or another regulator. As to what to do with it I see it as another logi with 4EQ. But with the hive bonus affecting all players they are rarely in short supply... so bonuses will be addressed at another time. Back on task. The 4th EQ slot will bring it in line with the others but it still suffers; finding a logibro role and it being survivable is difficult. If you ultimately reach the decision that this logi should have a sidearm like the Amarr I don't believe that to be bad thing, but it also role bleeds a little - even though right now it sounds better simply because it needs something more. But what it maybe what it needs is just more of its role definition, and a 4th EQ puts it there. How that will work out will be fun to see, but I think it should still just be a regular logi with 5/3/4 and a LW and Grenade. Bring it into balance... Unless we balance the logi's to its 9 slots :)... but that may be asking too much. (and to many tears on the forums shorts out the servers) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:33:00 - [170] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. Easy fix. Duplicate those weapons, and reassign them as sidearms. Increase fitting cost of these new "support" weapons by 100% and then add a role bonus to reduction to fitting cost of those weapons. Give logis one sidearm slot only. Now you can make assaults and logis equal in mobility and defensive without logis becoming slayers. EDIT: this has been already with the black eagle assault rifles.

The Eristic Art.of.Death 998	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:50:00 - [171] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. It's not necessarily about keeping the links themselves up, it's keeping BONUSED links up. Were the Amarr's bonus retained until you spawned (or swapped to) a different suit, your point might be more accurate, but as is, the bonus is lost on death, so defending yourself is defending your links. I'd ultimately be fine with no sidearms and slot equalization on all four, but there is most definitely still defensive value in the sidearm on the Amarr (and would be on the Cal, too, though your team isn't suddenly stuck with long, limited spawns when the Cal goes down, just less ammo - Cal could stand a bonus to needles or something while we're at it). Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:02:00 - [172] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot. Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! Actually, as I've stated elsewhere, it does sound improper for a FPS lobby shooter but it is more proper than the "sidearm method" because at least there is still a tactical trade-off. You still cannot lock more targets than your rep tool allows (two in some cases at proto) and you yourself are still not being repped, on top of which no amount of reps prevents getting Alpha'ed to death (and with "gotcha" tactics being so common in Dust that's a fairly common risk). If we're talking a real 'weaponless logi' in dust would we translate literal numbers directly from EVE? Of course not. But is a weaponless logi which follows in the conceptual footsteps of the EVE logi more tactically valid and viable than the deeply unfortunate "sidearm only method", yes it is every single day of the week. Being able to defend ones self with some modicum of effectiveness is great, but failing that (and let's be clear here, for most players on average having only a single side arm most certainly is failing that) having zero ability to defend ones self in exchange for being a better (if now fully dependent) support squad member is a substantially superior iteration. Making the role 'jack of all trades, mediocre at all' isn't useful or healthy role definition. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:21:00 - [173] - Quote I have a hard time believing the up link story.... Most uplinks I kill have no logis around them. Most uplinks I get killed at have no logis near them. How about this for a challenge? Remove ALL weapon and grenade slots. Balance them as they are without any consideration for any weapons in mind as they're not a weapon class to begin with. Then decide which things to add back for the offensive kits. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:57:00 - [174] - Quote While doing the brainwork here, please remember: Having things even and progressions logical etc is nice. Bear in mind that sometimes that is not enough; sometimes meta dictates that sometimes that does not bring equal nor balanced results. A practical example which is also from Dust's history: Even with even total slot counts, A suit with many high slots is more powerful if the shield tanking meta is stronger (example: summer 2013) A suit with more low slots is more powerful if armor tanking meta is prevalent (example winter 2013-2014 onward) Sure mathematics and simple progressions give good base to start from. We just can't expect them to be readily balanced results. Looking at both sides of the coin. Even Aurum one.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 04:31:00 - [175] - Quote Kero's first set of comments: While Eq slots are the very heart of logis, if A-logi's role is to be more combatty, it is okay to sacrifice one Eq slot for the sidearm While the cald-logi was desiged in chromosome, it had extra fitting slot for no apparent reason. It has carried over, even through anti-slayer logi nerfs for some reason. Cald-logis extra slot can be taken away with no reimbursement for it. BUT the cald-logi nevertheless needs some love for it's rather lacking role bonus. Any suit with just sidearm slot is in danger of being an unused gimmick. For that sacrifice there would have to be some truly awesome bonus. An already weak caldari logi should not be made a sidearm only suit. ESPECIALLY with only one weapon slot... The idea to make basic (non-specialized) suits have 2 Eq slots is good. It is okay to have different number of Eq slots (3/4) Scouts could do with one Eq slot I'm talking against my own playstyle here, but it really makes sense for logis to lose Grenade slot and leave it to suits more inclined to breaching places. Especially, as logis are the ones most likely to be able to supply their own spam hives. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:09:00 - [176] - Quote Im amazed people are still trying to push for the Sidearm only Logi. Because "It's Support"? Isn't a Scout supposed to be Stealth/EWAR? So by a similar logic would they not be Sidearm Only too? How about we stop trying to strip away essentials from suits and instead focus on giving Assaults something unique that Logis cant replicate? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:29:00 - [177] - Quote The Eristic wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. It's not necessarily about keeping the links themselves up, it's keeping BONUSED links up. Were the Amarr's bonus retained until you spawned (or swapped to) a different suit, your point might be more accurate, but as is, the bonus is lost on death, so defending yourself is defending your links. I'd ultimately be fine with no sidearms and slot equalization on all four, but there is most definitely still defensive value in the sidearm on the Amarr (and would be on the Cal, too, though your team isn't suddenly stuck with long, limited spawns when the Cal goes down, just less ammo - Cal could stand a bonus to needles or something while we're at it). Your defense should be your team. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:47:00 - [178] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: The Eristic wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. It's not necessarily about keeping the links themselves up, it's keeping BONUSED links up. Were the Amarr's bonus retained until you spawned (or swapped to) a different suit, your point might be more accurate, but as is, the bonus is lost on death, so defending yourself is defending your links. I'd ultimately be fine with no sidearms and slot equalization on all four, but there is most definitely still defensive value in the sidearm on the Amarr (and would be on the Cal, too, though your team isn't suddenly stuck with long, limited spawns when the Cal goes down, just less ammo - Cal could stand a bonus to needles or something while we're at it). Your defense should be your team. SHOULD be doesn't always mean will be. Sometimes the only things standing between the enemy and flipping the objective is you, your bonused links, and your guns. Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:00:00 - [179] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I have a hard time believing the up link story.... Most uplinks I kill have no logis around them. Most uplinks I get killed at have no logis near them. How about this for a challenge? Remove ALL weapon and grenade slots. Balance them as they are without any consideration for any weapons in mind as they're not a weapon class to begin with. Then decide which things to add back for the offensive kits. You're drunk, go home. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:06:00 - [180] - Quote Oh, and some weapons can be categorized as more supportive weapons and having those weapons for logi fits neatly to it's purpose! So that is one plus for having light arm PLUS sidearm combo. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.



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