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MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:44:00 - [211] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... I feel that successfully taking on an amarr logi and dropping the bonus on their links is more of an 'emergent gameplay' thing and a reward to the people that killed the logi, rather than a huge massive bigbad problem with the amarr logi. I'm not 100% but i believe they retain / reapply their bonus so long as they spawn out in an amarr logi dropsuit, but even if they dont - Woe to the Vanquished. Get your team to protect you better, or learn to support them better. I still do not feel that the amarr either need or should have a sidearm (especially when trading a highslot for it... the equipment slot is more balanced, but I'd still like to see all logi's hit 4 equip), their first line of defense should be their team. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 286	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:08:00 - [212] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... I feel that successfully taking on an amarr logi and dropping the bonus on their links is more of an 'emergent gameplay' thing and a reward to the people that killed the logi, rather than a huge massive bigbad problem with the amarr logi. I'm not 100% but i believe they retain / reapply their bonus so long as they spawn out in an amarr logi dropsuit, but even if they dont - Woe to the Vanquished. Get your team to protect you better, or learn to support them better. I still do not feel that the amarr either need or should have a sidearm (especially when trading a highslot for it... the equipment slot is more balanced, but I'd still like to see all logi's hit 4 equip), their first line of defense should be their team. My problem is actually in a bonus to Drop Uplinks, which have always struck me as more part of an infiltrator's kit, rather than as part of a direct support platform's...it just doesn't seem to fit in the role, and is more shoehorned in because it's the only piece of Amarr Tech that goes in the equipment slot... Sidearm on the Amarr Logi Aside (I'd prefer to keep it myself, but I can work with 4 equipment and a light weapon) I think all the logis need bonuses that make sense in a direct support role (or rather, we need to define the logi's role more concretely) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:48:00 - [213] - Quote I've talked about this in triage ward, but logi's bonuses do in most cases are directly influenced by their eve 'warfare' doctrines. Caldari = Siege warfare, they take a place and entrench it with nanohives and rep hives - making them incredibly hard to push out. Their bonus amplifies the strength of their ability to hold a position. Gallente = Information warfare, the scanner allows you to gain information about your enemies movements, and deny them information either through skillful avoidance or assassination. The bonus allows them to see more things, for longer durations. Amarr = Armored warfare, this is a bit of a stretch but in traditional armored warfare doctrines it's all about supply lines the amarr logi is able to dramatically shorten the length of time it takes to bring their slowest but most overbearingly powerful heavily armored units to the front of a fight even if a heavily armored unit gets downed. Their bonus further shortens spawn times and increases the duration that their shortened supply lines stay active. Minmatar = skirmish warfare, unlike the caldari nanohives, the rep tool is infinitely relocateable and has an infinite supply of HP repair allowing the minmatar logi to follow his squad wherever combat takes them, the bonus to rep tool also allows them to rep from further out and repair damage even faster, sustaining his squad (especially with the usual minmatar mixed HP) through skirmishes with units that should theoretically overpower them. I think their bonuses make perfect sense. A single drop uplink can certainly help be part of an incursion into an area, but an amarr logi drop uplink says "we're making a heavy offensive here". A single nanohive restores some ammo or HP, a callogi nanohive says "We're going to hold this position". A rep tool says "I want to be able to support my team no matter where the battle goes", a min logi rep tool says "I am going to provide the BEST support to my team, no matter where we go". An active scanner goes "I want to see hostiles before they see us" a gallogi scanner says "I am dedicated to providing my squad with the best information they need to take down their opponents, while not getting taken down themselves". Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:19:00 - [214] - Quote As a quick - but relevant - sidebar; the discussion of the Amarr sidearm and how it (and the Cal) interact with the racial bonuses is much like the Assault conversation as well and labors under the same basic flaw. That being the notion that slot layouts should be defined/redefined based on the racial or role skills which are in both cases lack luster for providing merit and incentive to run the role itself. The slot layout, or basic stat profile, of either medium frame should not be defined (or re-defined) but the value (or lack there of) of the current bonuses. The skills need work, that's a given, but the slots and stats should be balanced within each role and within the medium line, in light of a context where the racial and role skills are presumed to be in a proper state. If they are not balanced within that presumed framework all balance that is applied to them will have to be re-worked once again when the bonuses are addressed. So, while considering proper slot layout assuming the following at all times. The assault is better at providing DPS due to it's racial skills The logi is better at providing support (aka using equipment) due to it's racial skills Survivability should be defined by a equal (but NOT identical) speed/eHP ratio game wide Slots should be balanced with role vision in mind, but largely against each other not against aspects covered by racial skills et al Without this framework for the discussion it is very easy to spend functionally limitless amounts of time presenting theory crafting (and counter theory crafting) "what if" scenarios, essentially running in circles rather than moving towards any form of constructive context or resolution. 0.02 ISK Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 484	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:33:00 - [215] - Quote Probably off topic but the cal logi bonus to nanohives has been made fairly useless due to the equipment carry buff.. i would be surprised if many assaults even made it through 6 basic nanohives per clone unless they are spamming nades off a roof.
Kaze Eyrou Dust University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:45:00 - [216] - Quote A little side note as well, the Caldari and Amarr bonuses are still bugged as well. While we talk about theorycrafting and other discussions, I would love to know that these bugs would be fixed alongside the buff/changes to the Logistics class. Right now I'm posting on mobile, but I'll attempt to find the thread I made that I'm talking about, and link it in this post. CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links
Kaze Eyrou Dust University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:54:00 - [217] - Quote Back on topic, I too would like to see the slot progression similar to what we have on Assaults. However, I'm against having Logistics natively faster than Assaults. I believe doing so would cause another Logi Slayer era. At least that's my 2 ISK on the issue. CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.06.01 17:30:00 - [218] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... I feel that successfully taking on an amarr logi and dropping the bonus on their links is more of an 'emergent gameplay' thing and a reward to the people that killed the logi, rather than a huge massive bigbad problem with the amarr logi. I'm not 100% but i believe they retain / reapply their bonus so long as they spawn out in an amarr logi dropsuit, but even if they dont - Woe to the Vanquished. Get your team to protect you better, or learn to support them better. I still do not feel that the amarr either need or should have a sidearm (especially when trading a highslot for it... the equipment slot is more balanced, but I'd still like to see all logi's hit 4 equip), their first line of defense should be their team. i dont think they should have a fourth equipment either. 3 is enough for a more combat oriented logi(which the amarr very much is if you read the suit description ) Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 18:09:00 - [219] - Quote Kaze Eyrou wrote: Back on topic, I too would like to see the slot progression similar to what we have on Assaults. However, I'm against having Logistics natively faster than Assaults. I believe doing so would cause another Logi Slayer era. At least that's my 2 ISK on the issue. Be it faster with lower HP, or slower with higher HP, the relative placement of any role on the HP to Speed ratio should never define their 'slayer' status on average (unless the curve is broken, in which case it would need fixed). If fast, low HP logi are so potent that they become better slayers than assaults (properly bonused assaults) then there is a fundamental problem with speed that reaches well beyond the scope of balance between a couple roles and it needs to be addressed. Simply put, the stats of logi shouldn't be defined by making them inferior to assaults, rather both the assault and logi should have their stats defined by being survivable and stable within their role and then specialization applied (via racial skills et al) to make the roles attractive for their specialized use. We don't, for example, nerf the HP of all other roles to make the Sentinel properly resilient, rather we apply damage resistance to the Sentinel so that it's properly specialized. (but we certainly do want to make sure that, skills included, the assault is a robust dps slayer class, just as the logi should provide meaningful support value above and beyond what a squad of non-logi could supply for themselves, there's some work to be done to reach either goal) I suppose my point here is speed and HP of each role should be defined through a game wide method, role balance should be advised by the presence of all the other roles most certainly, but not outright defined by it (IMO anyway) as out right definition of one role by another risks the "one role to rule them all" situation we've faced in the past. EDIT: Just to be clear, assault being faster and lower HP as you seem to suggest is every bit as valid as assault being slower with high HP, and I don't mean to imply otherwise. Simply stating that "because slayer logi" shouldn't be any kind of concern when formulating the conceptual shape of a game state where there will be solid racial bonuses for the assault and logi and where a proper Speed/HP ratio exists. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 286	Posted - 2015.06.01 19:00:00 - [220] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: As a quick - but relevant - sidebar; the discussion of the Amarr sidearm and how it (and the Cal) interact with the racial bonuses is much like the Assault conversation as well and labors under the same basic flaw. That being the notion that slot layouts should be defined/redefined based on the racial or role skills which are in both cases lack luster for providing merit and incentive to run the role itself. The slot layout, or basic stat profile, of either medium frame should not be defined (or re-defined) but the value (or lack there of) of the current bonuses. The skills need work, that's a given, but the slots and stats should be balanced within each role and within the medium line, in light of a context where the racial and role skills are presumed to be in a proper state. If they are not balanced within that presumed framework all balance that is applied to them will have to be re-worked once again when the bonuses are addressed. So, while considering proper slot layout assuming the following at all times. The assault is better at providing DPS due to it's racial skills The logi is better at providing support (aka using equipment) due to it's racial skills Survivability should be defined by a equal (but NOT identical) speed/eHP ratio game wide Slots should be balanced with role vision in mind, but largely against each other not against aspects covered by racial skills et al Without this framework for the discussion it is very easy to spend functionally limitless amounts of time presenting theory crafting (and counter theory crafting) "what if" scenarios, essentially running in circles rather than moving towards any form of constructive context or resolution. 0.02 ISK Cross If we assume that we get (through either iteration or part of a comprehensive update) solid logistics bonuses focused on direct support, then there should be no meaningful reason for the Amarr Logi to keep its sidearm (Other than traditional flavor, or if the bonus is focused on a deploy-able, where that bonus goes away if the logi dies). My point is, that the bonus as is right now has been tied to the slot layout, they are not independent variables under current conditions, we have to assume that changes. Additionally, there should be no issue with Logi's having Light Weapons if we assume that the Assaults get a proper bonus to their light weapons (Something more similar to the Amarr/Min Assault bonuses...or possibly in addition to bonuses along those lines). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 19:38:00 - [221] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Cross Atu wrote: As a quick - but relevant - sidebar; the discussion of the Amarr sidearm and how it (and the Cal) interact with the racial bonuses is much like the Assault conversation as well and labors under the same basic flaw. That being the notion that slot layouts should be defined/redefined based on the racial or role skills which are in both cases lack luster for providing merit and incentive to run the role itself. The slot layout, or basic stat profile, of either medium frame should not be defined (or re-defined) but the value (or lack there of) of the current bonuses. The skills need work, that's a given, but the slots and stats should be balanced within each role and within the medium line, in light of a context where the racial and role skills are presumed to be in a proper state. If they are not balanced within that presumed framework all balance that is applied to them will have to be re-worked once again when the bonuses are addressed. So, while considering proper slot layout assuming the following at all times. The assault is better at providing DPS due to it's racial skills The logi is better at providing support (aka using equipment) due to it's racial skills Survivability should be defined by a equal (but NOT identical) speed/eHP ratio game wide Slots should be balanced with role vision in mind, but largely against each other not against aspects covered by racial skills et al Without this framework for the discussion it is very easy to spend functionally limitless amounts of time presenting theory crafting (and counter theory crafting) "what if" scenarios, essentially running in circles rather than moving towards any form of constructive context or resolution. 0.02 ISK Cross If we assume that we get (through either iteration or part of a comprehensive update) solid logistics bonuses focused on direct support, then there should be no meaningful reason for the Amarr Logi to keep its sidearm (Other than traditional flavor, or if the bonus is focused on a deploy-able, where that bonus goes away if the logi dies). My point is, that the bonus as is right now has been tied to the slot layout, they are not independent variables under current conditions, we have to assume that changes. Additionally, there should be no issue with Logi's having Light Weapons if we assume that the Assaults get a proper bonus to their light weapons (Something more similar to the Amarr/Min Assault bonuses...or possibly in addition to bonuses along those lines). There is no issue with Logi having Light Weapons never has been despite the many flawed attempts to assume otherwise. A weakness in one thing (the dps output of the assault in this case) is not a reason to nerf another separate thing (be that scouts, heavies, logi, as have all happened... the commandos have been safe in that they are currently pre-nerfed). The sidearm on the Amarr could go either way, there is no specific reason why it must be there with the properly assumed case, but there is also no clear reason why it should not (presuming we account for the rest of the slot layout to be balanced). It is every bit as much tradition to assume that logi have no sidearm as it is to assume that the Amarr is the exception to that, there is no explicit reason for or against it which is largely why it is still so frequently debated. The major impacts that make the slot itself - or rather it's value - so subjective is that only one weapon can be employed at a time thus limiting the utility of the side arm to a sub-set of use cases (for example when you run out of ammo during a gun fight). Further, 'the thing' that it is commonly weighed against is an equipment slot but those don't hold an absolute value either as their net value decreases as you gain more of them. Sound odd? Let me elaborate. How much value would a single slot be to a Sentinel? Having one rep tool is of value, having 3 is not three times as valuable. Bringing a stack of hives on an assault suit provides a great deal of utility, most slayers are however not going to be able to use up a full payload of 3-4 slots worth of hives before they die. Having uplinks on the field is valuable, and more to prevent loss of all holds merit, but if you're trying to spawn into a location having 1 present is vital, having 12 present is primarily useful in that it ensures you retain that 1 which you actually need 4 Injectors serves no purpose Now of course you can diversify your slots and that does provide value, I do not mean to imply otherwise, but you can only use so much at a single time so even there the value is throttled. Just as it is throttled in the case of running - for example - multiple active scanners. Are 4 scanners useful in certain situations? Sure. But the value gained from a 3rd or 4th scanner is not as large of an upswing as the value gained from the first, or even second. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 19:43:00 - [222] - Quote Ran out of characters, but the point being that nothing is an independent variable, nor does anything once context is applied, hold a 100% static value, not slots, not stats, not the mods your suits are fitted with. So while obviously taking an approach that focuses on fewer things at a time will not account for everything right out of the gate, neither will an approach that vainly attempts to look to widely at everything simultaneously. The differences being that the somewhat more simplified approach provides better context for the tuning that will likely be required either way. It's very useful in complex systems to try and maintain as many apples to apples comparisons as one is able. Building from them to address the wider more nuanced implications is required no doubt, but trying to do everything at once is not actually very viable. 0.02 ISK CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.02 14:20:00 - [223] - Quote Why are you trying to push this ratatti? Doesnt this colide with tiericide and the power core idea? Give all suits the same slot layouts and the power cores itself dictate what you can fit on them. I honestly dont see a issue with this. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 939	Posted - 2015.06.02 17:54:00 - [224] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Why are you trying to push this ratatti? Doesnt this colide with tiericide and the power core idea? Give all suits the same slot layouts and the power cores itself dictate what you can fit on them. I honestly dont see a issue with this. I guess this readjustment falls into the category of hotfixes, while powercore / tiericide is a 100% client update. At least that's what I read from his comment below: CCP Rattati wrote: xp3ll3d dust wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO With the talk of "tiericide" & power cores, I thought that the plan was to remove slot numbers as progression. Looking at these numbers, it looks like this is a proposal for "right now" that will then be replaced with tiericide later. So just checking, the plan is: 1. Normalise the slot counts right now within the existing game. To give you a chance to check that the proto number of slots are balanced fine for each race. 2. Later on with tiericide, standardise all suits on the number of slots that were given to proto At least, know what the smart answer is before making sweeping changes.
Petrified Ancient Tree The Iberian Norsemen 46	Posted - 2015.06.02 23:13:00 - [225] - Quote The CA logi switch, would that be static or dynamic? In other words: could we choose a light weapon when setting up the logi and thus sacrifice an equipment slot while having the option to use a side arm and thus keep all 4 equipment slots? That would be ideal, in my mind, if you could get it to work. Otherwise, I know of a good number of side arms that work quite well for a logi to use - providing you are acting as a logistics support. But otherwise. I prefer my son's Shaman over my Kampo when it comes to logi support - a full bag of tricks beats a partial bag of tricks any day. Nothing cures bad aim like a mass driver...
RedBleach LeSanglant Molon Labe. RUST415 837	Posted - 2015.06.03 05:01:00 - [226] - Quote Thoughts are ruminating again. CCP, you must make the decision for the sidearm on the AMARR and CAL Logis. You are the Refs, we are the players. Though we may have some good input, you will have to make the final call. AMARR and CAL able to run AV support is Awesome. (sidearms and 3 EQ) The CAL logi sucks in general, for many reasons covered elsewhere. It just lacks an effective way to survive. That 9th slot helps, but the suit is still painful to run. - so more sweeps on balance like this speed balance and eventual review of bonuses and stats will be great. Something to help it survive. Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.06.03 08:38:00 - [227] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level. Absolutely. No logi should have only 2 equipment slots, not when scouts and potentially medium frames will match them on that. However... there is a problem with the idea that the Amarr logi would have full equipment count AND its sidearm at standard and adv, if the other logis only get their full equipment count at proto. This would once again lead to the issue where while even if the different racial logis would be fairly balanced at proto tier, at lower tiers some of them would be comparatively better than others of the same tier... We have that now with the wonky module slot progression, and the whole point was to get rid of that issue finally. Really, the only way I can see to address both those issues fairly is giving all Logis their full equipment slot count across all tiers. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 948	Posted - 2015.06.03 13:02:00 - [228] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level. Absolutely. No logi should have only 2 equipment slots, not when scouts and potentially medium frames will match them on that. However... there is a problem with the idea that the Amarr logi would have full equipment count AND its sidearm at standard and adv, if the other logis only get their full equipment count at proto. This would once again lead to the issue where while even if the different racial logis would be fairly balanced at proto tier, at lower tiers some of them would be comparatively better than others of the same tier... We have that now with the wonky module slot progression, and the whole point was to get rid of that issue finally. Really, the only way I can see to address both those issues fairly is giving all Logis their full equipment slot count across all tiers. I-Shayz-I came up with a good solution. Give logis a 3, 3, 4 equipment slot progression, but give the Amarr logi a sidearm instead of an equipment at proto only. So standard and advanced Amarr logis would be like other logis, but they get a sidearm at proto instead of the fourth equipment.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.06.03 14:12:00 - [229] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Still need all logis to start with 3EQ - even if that never changes for AMARR and CAL at the proto level. Absolutely. No logi should have only 2 equipment slots, not when scouts and potentially medium frames will match them on that. However... there is a problem with the idea that the Amarr logi would have full equipment count AND its sidearm at standard and adv, if the other logis only get their full equipment count at proto. This would once again lead to the issue where while even if the different racial logis would be fairly balanced at proto tier, at lower tiers some of them would be comparatively better than others of the same tier... We have that now with the wonky module slot progression, and the whole point was to get rid of that issue finally. Really, the only way I can see to address both those issues fairly is giving all Logis their full equipment slot count across all tiers. I-Shayz-I came up with a good solution. Give logis a 3, 3, 4 equipment slot progression, but give the Amarr logi a sidearm instead of an equipment at proto only. So standard and advanced Amarr logis would be like other logis, but they get a sidearm at proto instead of the fourth equipment. sigh Unless I have completely lost my mind, originally the Amarr logi had that type of progression. The sidearm, which was supposed to be the defining feature of the Amarr logi, was only unlocked at a higher tier, and was not available at standard (or advanced, if I remember correctly). This was changed later, as indeed, it was agreed by most that having that particular feature not available at lower tiers was odd. Every single other suit has all of its weapon slots unlocked at standard, the Amarr logi being the odd one out was... well, unnecessary. Only having the sidearm available at proto is moving us further away from normalization, and is not the approach I would advocate at all. If we go that route, we should maybe also start looking at, say, scouts only having 2 equipment slots at proto, etc. The most elegant solution to this would be to give all logis their full equipment count at all tiers. The difference between the different tiers should be narrowed, not increased. And why not start on bridging the gap now, if we are looking at completely flattened slot counts due to introducing power cores sometime down the road. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Balistyc Farshot OUTCAST MERCS General Tso's Alliance 194	Posted - 2015.06.03 14:52:00 - [230] - Quote I think if anything we are focused too heavily on logis attack potential. Lets buff their equipment to make them equipment focused (Maybe even by racial focus). If the issue is scouts and assaults filling the logi roll, lets give logis a bonus to PG/CPU reduction of equipment and increase the PG/CPU off all higher end equipment so scouts and assaults will be wielding lower end gear without a heavy sacrifice. Use the same tools CCP used to balance cloaking devices being on all suits. With the team chat gone, we need to really start leveraging the squad finder!

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 948	Posted - 2015.06.03 15:04:00 - [231] - Quote No additional fitting bonuses! The cloak fitting bonus for scouts is terrible implementation, as you can only sensibly fit a cloak on a scout when you have level 5 in scout. I think Zaria's idea is best. Give logis 4 equipment at all tiers. Amarr 3 plus sidearm at all tiers. The solution I mentioned earlier assumed that equipment progression happening.
ZDub 303 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.06.03 17:10:00 - [232] - Quote For reasons already stated, the Amarr Logi should lose its sidearm. Slot layout should conform within racial and class boundaries. Either all logis should be 3E + S or none of them. There is a place for 3E + S but it should just become its own suit with its own, much clearer role. All of this fighting is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Logistics has no clear role, and so everyone is commenting with their own bias and definition of what their version of a Logistics should be. Rattati, define what role a Logistics should have in battle, and then you will get more relevant feedback. Until then, you will just get bickering and a flood of tears as forum warriors fight to the death over which vision of what a Logistics 'should be' is more correct. As an aside, 'Support' is too general of an answer for what Logistics should be doing. If 'Equipment' is the answer, then you need to consider how racial bonuses are fighting against that role definition. If you are thinking that 'equipment' is the Logistics role (I disagree and think that is still too general of a definition myself but its workable) then you need to remove or at least significantly mitigate the effect that racial bonuses have on that role.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 950	Posted - 2015.06.03 17:38:00 - [233] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: For reasons already stated, the Amarr Logi should lose its sidearm. Slot layout should conform within racial and class boundaries. Either all logis should be 3E + S or none of them. There is a place for 3E + S but it should just become its own suit with its own, much clearer role. All of this fighting is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Logistics has no clear role, and so everyone is commenting with their own bias and definition of what their version of a Logistics should be. Rattati, define what role a Logistics should have in battle, and then you will get more relevant feedback. Until then, you will just get bickering and a flood of tears as forum warriors fight to the death over which vision of what a Logistics 'should be' is more correct. As an aside, 'Support' is too general of an answer for what Logistics should be doing. If 'Equipment' is the answer, then you need to consider how racial bonuses are fighting against that role definition. If you are thinking that 'equipment' is the Logistics role (I disagree and think that is still too general of a definition myself but its workable) then you need to remove or at least significantly mitigate the effect that racial bonuses have on that role. I don't see any bickering or tears. The only tears you are going to get are from Amarr logi users if you remove their sidearm. Logis have one of the, if not the, most defined role in the game. Equipment use. And how exactly are the logi's equipment bonuses bad for their use of equipment?
ZDub 303 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.06.03 19:06:00 - [234] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I don't see any bickering or tears. The only tears you are going to get are from Amarr logi users if you remove their sidearm. Logis have one of the, if not the, most defined role in the game. Equipment use. And how exactly are the logi's equipment bonuses bad for their use of equipment? I would suggest you listen to the last Biomassed podcast on this topic. The racial bonuses for equipment really pidgeonhole each logi suit into a few specific and niche roles. Its not as clear cut as you say. Min Logi is a Medic with a rep tool, amarr logi drops uplinks, gallente logi is a scanner, and cal logi just kind of sucks but is supposed to drop boosted nanohives. Those roles, and how they interact and are useful in the battlefield are very different. You wouldn't use a min log with 4 active scanners, that would be senseless. You would use a gallente logi with 4 active scanners though, and you would be useful. Would you use a min logi with 4 rep tools? I would certainly hope not... You could use a cal logi with 4 boosted nanohives but you would probably be largely irrelevant. In fact, if you're not a min logi with a boosted rep tool or an amarr logi with some decent combat capability you are just running a truly subpar fit. Its fine to run subpar fits in pubs 'for the lulz' but when it comes to balancing it would help if each class was actually useful and served a real purpose. If 'equipment' is to the truly be the role of a logi suit then they need global bonuses to all relevant equipment (explosives likely excluded) so that each logi suit can actually perform the 'equipment' role.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.06.04 05:46:00 - [235] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I don't see any bickering or tears. The only tears you are going to get are from Amarr logi users if you remove their sidearm. Logis have one of the, if not the, most defined role in the game. Equipment use. And how exactly are the logi's equipment bonuses bad for their use of equipment? I would suggest you listen to the last Biomassed podcast on this topic. The racial bonuses for equipment really pidgeonhole each logi suit into a few specific and niche roles. Its not as clear cut as you say. Min Logi is a Medic with a rep tool, amarr logi drops uplinks, gallente logi is a scanner, and cal logi just kind of sucks but is supposed to drop boosted nanohives. Those roles, and how they interact and are useful in the battlefield are very different. You wouldn't use a min log with 4 active scanners, that would be senseless. You would use a gallente logi with 4 active scanners though, and you would be useful. Would you use a min logi with 4 rep tools? I would certainly hope not... You could use a cal logi with 4 boosted nanohives but you would probably be largely irrelevant. In fact, if you're not a min logi with a boosted rep tool or an amarr logi with some decent combat capability you are just running a truly subpar fit. Its fine to run subpar fits in pubs 'for the lulz' but when it comes to balancing it would help if each class was actually useful and served a real purpose. If 'equipment' is to the truly be the role of a logi suit then they need global bonuses to all relevant equipment (explosives likely excluded) so that each logi suit can actually perform the 'equipment' role. The only thing I would be careful about universal bonuses is that you do not want Logi bonuses to feel too similar, lest they become overly homoginized. I think opening up additional options aside from the single bonused equipment is good, but I'm very reluctant to give too much of an over arcing bonus set. Does that make sense? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
rayakalj9 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 17	Posted - 2015.06.04 07:01:00 - [236] - Quote I believe out of every racial logistics i think the caldari should have more cpu than others born jamaican
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.04 16:04:00 - [237] - Quote Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? Shield suits are not competetive and do not allow for teamplay. While on the flipside the other 3 logis have a crucial role attached to them which makes them a valuable asset on the battlefield. Minmatarr= armor reps which helps out amarr and galente suits the most Amarr= faster spawning that allows you reinforce your team quicker then spawning on a objective Gallente= intel about enemy locations and equipment by the usage of active scanners And then we have the caldari which gives nanohive ressuply bonus. Ya know what else enhances the resupply rate of nanohives? Every reserve ammo increasing skill. So lets say you have the ammo skill for AR's at 5 which gives you +25% reserve ammo. The AR has a bae max ammo of 350 rounds. The probs best ammo hive is the X-3 quantum with 21% resupply rate. Ammo per clip: 70 rounds Base ammo= 350 ammo with the skills to V= 437,5 (round it down to 437) resupply rate from a X-3 quantum hive= 21% Resupply rate without any ammunition skills= 73 rounds Resupply rate WITH ammunition skill on V= 91 rounds Now lets see how the caldari logi resupply bonus worksout: +25% resupply rate on the nanohives base stat at lvl5 cal logi resupply rate rate of the X-3 Quantum hive= 21% resupply rate with cal. logi V= 26,25% I assume that i have 0 skills in the AR ammo skill which would mean i get aswell exactly 91 rounds for each nanohive pulse. So some 1 please explain me here how this skill bonus is benefical if i can get the exact same result from a skill that has much less SP investment cost? Ammo skill cost ~932k SP Cal logi SP cost ~2,7 mil SP (+~300k is from the medium frame skillbook) Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Balistyc Farshot Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 200	Posted - 2015.06.04 16:31:00 - [238] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? Shield suits are not competetive and do not allow for teamplay. While on the flipside the other 3 logis have a crucial role attached to them which makes them a valuable asset on the battlefield. Minmatarr= armor reps which helps out amarr and galente suits the most Amarr= faster spawning that allows you reinforce your team quicker then spawning on a objective Gallente= intel about enemy locations and equipment by the usage of active scanners And then we have the caldari which gives nanohive ressuply bonus. Ya know what else enhances the resupply rate of nanohives? Every reserve ammo increasing skill. So lets say you have the ammo skill for AR's at 5 which gives you +25% reserve ammo. The AR has a bae max ammo of 350 rounds. The probs best ammo hive is the X-3 quantum with 21% resupply rate. Ammo per clip: 70 rounds Base ammo= 350 ammo with the skills to V= 437,5 (round it down to 437) resupply rate from a X-3 quantum hive= 21% Resupply rate without any ammunition skills= 73 rounds Resupply rate WITH ammunition skill on V= 91 rounds Now lets see how the caldari logi resupply bonus worksout: +25% resupply rate on the nanohives base stat at lvl5 cal logi resupply rate rate of the X-3 Quantum hive= 21% resupply rate with cal. logi V= 26,25% I assume that i have 0 skills in the AR ammo skill which would mean i get aswell exactly 91 rounds for each nanohive pulse. So some 1 please explain me here how this skill bonus is benefical if i can get the exact same result from a skill that has much less SP investment cost? Ammo skill cost ~932k SP Cal logi SP cost ~2,7 mil SP (+~300k is from the medium frame skillbook) I agree with this statement but the Gal logi I also feel sorry for. If you simply get SP for squad kills from intel, you are the only WP hungry Logi. The cal logi also needs some love in the bonus area. I would say we look at what adds value to nanohives. It isn't the restock rate. Now that we can stock more than ever you see them on assault suits a lot. I think if the Cal logi could place 1 more hive per 3 levels (lvl1 place 1 more militia/basic, lvl3 1 more advanced, lvl5 1 more proto) of each tier that would be more in line with the other bonuses. Getting the ammo faster isn't going to turn a battle at all. Usually it is having multiple points to gather ammo. Example of the disparity is that someone will look at an Amar uplink and choose it over anyone elses. A min with a rep tool will be expected to do the repping. Gal logis are the scanners and everyone knows when those go out because everything lights up. Cal logi, I don't pursue to get my ammo. With the team chat gone, we need to really start leveraging the squad finder!
ZDub 303 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.06.04 20:04:00 - [239] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The only thing I would be careful about universal bonuses is that you do not want Logi bonuses to feel too similar, lest they become overly homoginized. I think opening up additional options aside from the single bonused equipment is good, but I'm very reluctant to give too much of an over arcing bonus set. Does that make sense? I understand what you're saying Pokey, but honestly, I think the sentiment is a bit wrong in hindsight. A year ago I would have agreed with you but today I think that's the wrong philosophy. I want to refer back to a statement Jaysyn made probably 20-30 episodes ago where he talked about how difficult the light assault rifles were to balance. He mentioned that most of the problems balancing are because CCP is trying too hard to make the rifles feel different for the sake of it, and the end result is just a set of rifles that mostly feel awkward. In this effort, we ended up with a weapon like the Rail Rifle. Its a gun that has a charge up time and massive recoil that you cannot reset easily. So you have the longest range weapon that performs significantly worse as you engage at a further range. In the end, you have a weapon that just doesn't work. When a weapon doesn't work, the easiest indicator is when it never feels quite balanced, its either overpowered into relevancy or slight nerfs have made it entirely worthless in favor of weapons with a far more balanced rule set. I believe the same thing is true for logis. Without a defined role, they'll either be overpowered into relevancy or generally worthless. I also believe there is very little place for a suit without significant combat potential in a 16v16 match-based game. I highly suggest everyone who wants to talk Logistics play some amount of planetside 2 and see how the medic and the engineer play. I would not at all call them overpowered but they have largely the same combat potential that primary classes do while having a niche support focus. The whole formula works really well and feels far better than any of my past experiences as logi in Dust. I would say that logi does need to be homogenized, a lot. We also need to stop having logis focus on equipment that does not make sense for a support type role. Remote explosives don't belong on a min logi and conversely I don't believe that uplinks belong on the Amarr logi. The other half of this argument is that racial tanking styles can certainly be its own form of variety. What if I want to have a rep tool focus but I don't want to play Minmatar? Atm I really cannot. Or what if I want to get in the front lines and drop ammo and be combat support but do so with an Armor buffer amarr suit? Well I really cannot as nanohives are the Caldari focus. Additionally, I just don't believe that you should be forced to skill into a race you may not like for a specific functionality. Assaults really don't face that issue, all assault suits can still shoot people. All sentinels can still wield and HMG or FG, all scouts can cloak, but if you want the true potential of a piece of equipment you must skill into a suit you may not really want to play. I hate the minmatar tanking style and the general feel of those suits and so that means I miss out on a massive bonus to rep tools as a result? Where is my 'Guardian'? Now, why is this all important in a thread about slot progression? Well, slot progression is based largely on the role and focus a suit which is defined, almost entirely in dust, by its suit bonuses. We need to discuss suit bonuses before slot progression can make sense and be balanced. In lieu of all of the above, I would still say remove the Amarr Logi sidearm. All racial styles of a specific class should have predictable and consistent progression.
The Eristic Art.of.Death 1	Posted - 2015.06.05 05:00:00 - [240] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? The cal logi also needs some love in the bonus area. +3% per level to HP restored on injectors in addition to the hive bonus? (Would say 4%, but wouldn't want to make the State Kaal needle pointless.) Instantly makes it more useful in the combat zone, especially keeping high HP suits up and pushing. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.



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