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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
272
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Posted - 2015.05.27 15:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:The only stiff resistance was with getting rid of the Amarr Logi's sidearm. That resistance is still here, you shouldn't' get rid of it. It still a bad idea, no matter how much time passes between proposals.
For all the talk of getting rid amar logis giving up a slot, i have no idea why it must be a low slot or sidearm slot. If anything,Amarr Logis should give up a high slot for an fourth equipment slot. There is no use for an extra high slot on an armor based suit, even combat a oriented one. Get rid of the slot that has the least utility for one that has the most makes the most logical sense.
Cal Logi, and Gallente adv logis should mimic the assaults interms of high and low slots. Its a moot point since they are getting tiericided anyway, but for the short term, it should work out.
Cladari should not downgrade to sidearem. I have always been against any sidearm only logi, or any suit restritced to become a sidearm only suit, fitting capacity or otherwise. 1 sidearm for the weapon slot means getting unable to return fire at medium range, and being out dps short range. Cal logis dont have the ewar /speed to be stealthy and , or the HP of a heavy to get away from long range situations. Bad idea.
3 Precision Enhancers is what I run to detect scouts on Amarr Logi...without a Detection Buff to Logis, I'd rather give up a low slot for the 4th equipment than sacrifice that support ability.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
275
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Posted - 2015.05.29 21:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot.
Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role.
ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
275
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Posted - 2015.05.30 00:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:I think it is amusing to see how many people get bent out of shape because of the mere suggestion of Logistics losing the Light Weapon slot.
Personally, I think it is the best option for balancing the races as well as differentiating between dropsuit roles Either lose all weapons and go full on EVE style support, or leave the light weapon and retain some ability to legitimately defend oneself. Mid range stuff is just a way to create a less than viable set of suits and undermine the entire role. ooh! 2 Logis being able to outrep 5-6 player's combined firepower from most of the battlefield away! Let's do that one XD Yeah, that doesn't sound OP at all!! The Sidearm only is a nice middle ground between the two extremes of "I can do everything you can do, just better because I also have 3 additional equipment slots" and the "HA HA HA!! Just try to kill any of my teammates since my whole squad is dedicated Logi and we are repping them through everything you can throw at us (including Large Blasters)!!" I truly do not understand why people have such a problem with the role who is intended to be dedicated support being restricted to a Sidearm if any weapon. Another though occurs, reclass Logi Tools (Armor, Shield or potentially even Hybrid) as Equipment and a Sidearm (similar to how Proximity/Remote Explosives are Equipment but you spend SP on them through Weaponry rather than Dropsuit Upgrades)
Simple. because a Sidearm is insufficient for suppression of the enemy. Since a logi is required to run out and use their needle, they need strong enough "Teeth" to make the enemies think twice about getting out of cover to engage them. Many FPSes with an Incapacitated-Revive dynamic equip the medic class or style with Light Machine Guns specifically for this reason (Focusing on a general support role as well), while DUST has no real equivalent, the closest being the "Assault Rifle" class of weapons. Additionally, an issue with specifically the Drop Uplinks, is that the logi needs to be able to defend them-self while separate from the squad while placing them, and also be able to defend their uplinks (and nanohives for that matter) once deployed (although this isn't as much of an issue given the expanded equipment count...and tbh the Drop Uplink always seemed like something a Scout Suit should have a bonus to).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
286
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Posted - 2015.06.01 07:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:
Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm.
is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? Vae victis While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... I feel that successfully taking on an amarr logi and dropping the bonus on their links is more of an 'emergent gameplay' thing and a reward to the people that killed the logi, rather than a huge massive bigbad problem with the amarr logi. I'm not 100% but i believe they retain / reapply their bonus so long as they spawn out in an amarr logi dropsuit, but even if they dont - Woe to the Vanquished. Get your team to protect you better, or learn to support them better. I still do not feel that the amarr either need or should have a sidearm (especially when trading a highslot for it... the equipment slot is more balanced, but I'd still like to see all logi's hit 4 equip), their first line of defense should be their team.
My problem is actually in a bonus to Drop Uplinks, which have always struck me as more part of an infiltrator's kit, rather than as part of a direct support platform's...it just doesn't seem to fit in the role, and is more shoehorned in because it's the only piece of Amarr Tech that goes in the equipment slot...
Sidearm on the Amarr Logi Aside (I'd prefer to keep it myself, but I can work with 4 equipment and a light weapon) I think all the logis need bonuses that make sense in a direct support role (or rather, we need to define the logi's role more concretely)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
286
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Posted - 2015.06.01 19:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:As a quick - but relevant - sidebar; the discussion of the Amarr sidearm and how it (and the Cal) interact with the racial bonuses is much like the Assault conversation as well and labors under the same basic flaw. That being the notion that slot layouts should be defined/redefined based on the racial or role skills which are in both cases lack luster for providing merit and incentive to run the role itself. The slot layout, or basic stat profile, of either medium frame should not be defined (or re-defined) but the value (or lack there of) of the current bonuses. The skills need work, that's a given, but the slots and stats should be balanced within each role and within the medium line, in light of a context where the racial and role skills are presumed to be in a proper state. If they are not balanced within that presumed framework all balance that is applied to them will have to be re-worked once again when the bonuses are addressed. So, while considering proper slot layout assuming the following at all times.
- The assault is better at providing DPS due to it's racial skills
- The logi is better at providing support (aka using equipment) due to it's racial skills
- Survivability should be defined by a equal (but NOT identical) speed/eHP ratio game wide
- Slots should be balanced with role vision in mind, but largely against each other not against aspects covered by racial skills et al
Without this framework for the discussion it is very easy to spend functionally limitless amounts of time presenting theory crafting (and counter theory crafting) "what if" scenarios, essentially running in circles rather than moving towards any form of constructive context or resolution. 0.02 ISK Cross
If we assume that we get (through either iteration or part of a comprehensive update) solid logistics bonuses focused on direct support, then there should be no meaningful reason for the Amarr Logi to keep its sidearm (Other than traditional flavor, or if the bonus is focused on a deploy-able, where that bonus goes away if the logi dies). My point is, that the bonus as is right now has been tied to the slot layout, they are not independent variables under current conditions, we have to assume that changes.
Additionally, there should be no issue with Logi's having Light Weapons if we assume that the Assaults get a proper bonus to their light weapons (Something more similar to the Amarr/Min Assault bonuses...or possibly in addition to bonuses along those lines).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
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