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ZDub 303
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Posted - 2015.05.27 23:08:00 -
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I still believe there is a place for L/S logi style of play. Something in between scout and a full on Logistics.
However, I think that should just be a separate suit. So Nuke the sidearm and make a new suit for those players who like that playstyle.
Then, seriously consider racial bonuses along with slot layout. What is the point of a logistics? At the moment they have no clear defined role. One of them provides ammo, one of them provides reps, one provides spawn points, and one uses a scanner that will always either be irrelevant in face of scouts or make scouts irrelevant.
'Equipment' is not a role in my opinion, despite how others may feel. Most of the other classes have fairly well defined roles and they are better balanced because of it. However, "this class shoots stuff" is much easier to define than a support style.
In the end I think you need to take a step back and reconsider the big picture before you dig in to support play.
Scanning just doesn't make sense. Maybe you have done something since I quit playing that has found a way to make active scanners balanced with scout suits but I don't see how both can coexist and be relevant together. I would move all types of information warfare to the domain of the scouts and rework Gal Logi entirely.
Drop Uplinks, if you've ever played Planetside 2, belongs more to the vehicle space than to equipment in my opinion. They ruined the early game of dust and I can't see a situation where they really truly still belong in the game. Drop Uplinks are a cancer, but if you must keep them I would give them to a suit that is faster and more agile than an Amarr Logi suit. (Cloak + Light Suit speed makes more sense, maybe a new role? Infiltrator?)
Ammo belongs to a 'combat logi' type. L/S + Tank + Ammo but no damage/weapon bonuses and slower than assaults.
The 'Medic' is the EVE definition of Logistics. I think create a suit based around Armor and Shield Rep tools with high tank, high speed, low damage.
I know you're looking for a quick fix that only takes a few days, in that case normalize the slots and do 4E + 0S, it makes more sense at least. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2015.06.03 17:10:00 -
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For reasons already stated, the Amarr Logi should lose its sidearm. Slot layout should conform within racial and class boundaries. Either all logis should be 3E + S or none of them. There is a place for 3E + S but it should just become its own suit with its own, much clearer role.
All of this fighting is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Logistics has no clear role, and so everyone is commenting with their own bias and definition of what their version of a Logistics should be.
Rattati, define what role a Logistics should have in battle, and then you will get more relevant feedback. Until then, you will just get bickering and a flood of tears as forum warriors fight to the death over which vision of what a Logistics 'should be' is more correct.
As an aside, 'Support' is too general of an answer for what Logistics should be doing.
If 'Equipment' is the answer, then you need to consider how racial bonuses are fighting against that role definition. If you are thinking that 'equipment' is the Logistics role (I disagree and think that is still too general of a definition myself but its workable) then you need to remove or at least significantly mitigate the effect that racial bonuses have on that role. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2015.06.03 19:06:00 -
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Varoth Drac wrote:I don't see any bickering or tears. The only tears you are going to get are from Amarr logi users if you remove their sidearm.
Logis have one of the, if not the, most defined role in the game. Equipment use. And how exactly are the logi's equipment bonuses bad for their use of equipment?
I would suggest you listen to the last Biomassed podcast on this topic. The racial bonuses for equipment really pidgeonhole each logi suit into a few specific and niche roles. Its not as clear cut as you say.
Min Logi is a Medic with a rep tool, amarr logi drops uplinks, gallente logi is a scanner, and cal logi just kind of sucks but is supposed to drop boosted nanohives. Those roles, and how they interact and are useful in the battlefield are very different.
You wouldn't use a min log with 4 active scanners, that would be senseless. You would use a gallente logi with 4 active scanners though, and you would be useful. Would you use a min logi with 4 rep tools? I would certainly hope not...
You could use a cal logi with 4 boosted nanohives but you would probably be largely irrelevant. In fact, if you're not a min logi with a boosted rep tool or an amarr logi with some decent combat capability you are just running a truly subpar fit. Its fine to run subpar fits in pubs 'for the lulz' but when it comes to balancing it would help if each class was actually useful and served a real purpose.
If 'equipment' is to the truly be the role of a logi suit then they need global bonuses to all relevant equipment (explosives likely excluded) so that each logi suit can actually perform the 'equipment' role. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2015.06.04 20:04:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:The only thing I would be careful about universal bonuses is that you do not want Logi bonuses to feel *too* similar, lest they become overly homoginized. I think opening up additional options aside from the single bonused equipment is good, but I'm very reluctant to give too much of an over arcing bonus set. Does that make sense?
I understand what you're saying Pokey, but honestly, I think the sentiment is a bit wrong in hindsight. A year ago I would have agreed with you but today I think that's the wrong philosophy.
I want to refer back to a statement Jaysyn made probably 20-30 episodes ago where he talked about how difficult the light assault rifles were to balance. He mentioned that most of the problems balancing are because CCP is trying too hard to make the rifles feel different for the sake of it, and the end result is just a set of rifles that mostly feel awkward. In this effort, we ended up with a weapon like the Rail Rifle. Its a gun that has a charge up time and massive recoil that you cannot reset easily. So you have the longest range weapon that performs significantly worse as you engage at a further range. In the end, you have a weapon that just doesn't work. When a weapon doesn't work, the easiest indicator is when it never feels quite balanced, its either overpowered into relevancy or slight nerfs have made it entirely worthless in favor of weapons with a far more balanced rule set.
I believe the same thing is true for logis. Without a defined role, they'll either be overpowered into relevancy or generally worthless. I also believe there is very little place for a suit without significant combat potential in a 16v16 match-based game. I highly suggest everyone who wants to talk Logistics play some amount of planetside 2 and see how the medic and the engineer play. I would not at all call them overpowered but they have largely the same combat potential that primary classes do while having a niche support focus. The whole formula works really well and feels far better than any of my past experiences as logi in Dust.
I would say that logi does need to be homogenized, a lot. We also need to stop having logis focus on equipment that does not make sense for a support type role. Remote explosives don't belong on a min logi and conversely I don't believe that uplinks belong on the Amarr logi. The other half of this argument is that racial tanking styles can certainly be its own form of variety. What if I want to have a rep tool focus but I don't want to play Minmatar? Atm I really cannot. Or what if I want to get in the front lines and drop ammo and be combat support but do so with an Armor buffer amarr suit? Well I really cannot as nanohives are the Caldari focus.
Additionally, I just don't believe that you should be forced to skill into a race you may not like for a specific functionality. Assaults really don't face that issue, all assault suits can still shoot people. All sentinels can still wield and HMG or FG, all scouts can cloak, but if you want the true potential of a piece of equipment you must skill into a suit you may not really want to play. I hate the minmatar tanking style and the general feel of those suits and so that means I miss out on a massive bonus to rep tools as a result? Where is my 'Guardian'?
Now, why is this all important in a thread about slot progression? Well, slot progression is based largely on the role and focus a suit which is defined, almost entirely in dust, by its suit bonuses.
We need to discuss suit bonuses before slot progression can make sense and be balanced.
In lieu of all of the above, I would still say remove the Amarr Logi sidearm. All racial styles of a specific class should have predictable and consistent progression. |
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