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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
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Posted - 2015.05.27 11:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
The only stiff resistance was with getting rid of the Amarr Logi's sidearm. That resistance is still here, you shouldn't' get rid of it. It still a bad idea, no matter how much time passes between proposals.
For all the talk of getting rid amar logis giving up a slot, i have no idea why it must be a low slot or sidearm slot. If anything,Amarr Logis should give up a high slot for an fourth equipment slot. There is no use for an extra high slot on an armor based suit, even combat a oriented one. Get rid of the slot that has the least utility for one that has the most makes the most logical sense.
Cal Logi, and Gallente adv logis should mimic the assaults interms of high and low slots. Its a moot point since they are getting tiericided anyway, but for the short term, it should work out.
Cladari should not downgrade to sidearem. I have always been against any sidearm only logi, or any suit restritced to become a sidearm only suit, fitting capacity or otherwise. 1 sidearm for the weapon slot means getting unable to return fire at medium range, and being out dps short range. Cal logis dont have the ewar /speed to be stealthy and , or the HP of a heavy to get away from long range situations. Bad idea.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
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Posted - 2015.05.28 10:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Just throwing this out there
Amarr logi is
3 HS / 1 L / 1 S /1G /3 EQ /4 LS
Instead of removing a low slot or the side arm, i propose trading the high slot
2 HS / 1 L / 1 S / 1 G / 4 EQ / 4 LS
Unless anybody can tell me what the third high can be used for on an armor suit, i think thats the best trade.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 18:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Whats this about logis losing grenades? Whats an actual valid reason? Are logis getting a disporpotionate number of grenade kills? Are they fluxing too much equipment?
Grenades are just as defensive as they are offensive. Clearing remotes, enemy logi equipment spam, back up AV nades, or sometime just to chuck it into a room before a heavy clears it out.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Why not? Tanks can't do everything, LAVs cant do inverything, Sentinels can't do everything, why should logistics be able to do everything?
Tossing a grenade means doing everything? Because logis can't
- cloak and be as mobile as a scout (mobility ewar)
- fight like an Assault (more hp/ weapon bonus / sidearm)
- tank hp like a heavy
- AV as well as anyother suit, especially commandos
But tossing a grenade makes em jack of all trades. Sigh....
Side arm only logis???!!!
Al the destroyer wrote: Most all dedicated logis would be ok with sidearm only.
No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop.
These two are really, really bad ideas.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 20:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:No. Hell no. Most all dedicated Logis dont want the amarr to lose a light weapon and a sidearm, let alone making all of the logis sidearm only. Please, just stop.
These two are really, really bad ideas.
Just out of curiosity, - what weapon do you equip on your Logi (usually)? - What instances/scenarios in a match is it vital you have just that weapon? - And last, in those instances, could you have used a sidearm just as effectively?
These are the logis i run, to be fair, Min Logi is my go to suit, followed by the gallente, Amarr, and lastly the caldari.
- Min logi BK 42 Combat Rifle : medium range support for the guys i'm repping, close range backup vs enemies who get too close. If there's a guy behind the heavies gunning for me, I need to drop the reps and engage.
- Cal logi SB 39 Rail Rifle: Caldari i use for its nanohive, and long range support. I dont want to venture too far away from the nest i set up. This is the logi i use the least, others might utilize it differently. Shields aren't very useful in close range fights, let alone the Cal logi. I setup triage hives/ammo hive behind the front line, and use the rail rifles keep enemies pinged back at range.
Gal Logi Kalakiota Rail Rifle: After two scanners and a proto rep tool the adv logi can fit a proto gun. Same logic as the caldari. No need to run in close, the job is to light up enemies from a distance. The most reliable is the rail rifle.
- Amarr Logi Assault scrambler, breach pistol : Medium to close range fights. Very usefull vs sneaky scouts, not so much vs armor tanked suits. Defend uplinks at all costs.
Unless theres a sidearm does is better than a combat rifles in CQC, 2 sidarms that will outperform a side arm and a light weapon, or a sidearm that will out perform the rail rifle at long range, no i could not use any of the sidearms as effectively.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.29 02:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others.
All of those weapons have no place for a support logi, with the exception of the Mass driver. All of these weapons have major weaknesss that must be compensated for with a secondary weapon, be it sidearms for assaults and scouts or secondary light weapons for the commandos.
Unfeasable:
Sniper Rifle: Well, sniping is the opposite of supporting your team with rep, hives, and uplinks.
Swarms: Except the amarr logi, you are incapable of engaging infantry.
PLC: well I have yet to see any PLC support logi fits. PLC works best with a sidearm as back up. Otherwise, the only suit to run PLC only is the Galmando, which they dual wield Again, its AV work, with some use as antiinfantry. You have to be agressive with it, and ambush players.
Partially feasable:
Shotgun: They work with speed fits and stealth fits so you are not killed moving from place to another. Either your sprinting around trying to get kills not being a logi, or your are just hoping that the enemy comes within 10m to shoot you. Really a last resort.
- Laser rifle, polar opposite of the shotgun, You have to be removed from the fight, and you dont have the Amarr bonus to kill an enemy before it overheats. Anybody that gets midrange you'll be in reall trouble.
All of these weapons are the domain of the other suits. Commandos for sniping, swarms and PLC. Amarr Assaults for Laser rifle, Scouts for the shotgun. These are all niche weapons, for a very specific situations.
Its offering logis to be the best at things they dont need. Logis don't need niche weapons, logis need reliable ones, to help push a point with the assaults and heavies. And the rifles work just fine.
Al the destroyer wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I kind of wish we had a support weapon slot, for MD's, LR, PLC, Shotgun, Sniper and Swarm, to distinguish from "Rifles". Then Logis could be good at them, and bad at the others. I'm down can you do it?
Theres nothing stopping you right now from logging on and crippling your own logi fit. You want to rep heavies carrying sniper rifle, shoot back at RRs with a shotgun, or run a single ion pistol on your gal logi, because you want a sidearm only logi great. Have at it. Its a sandbox. Play as you like.
But keep your fitting choices to yourself, and stop trying to push it as a requirement on others.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.29 05:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Al the destroyer wrote:
It don't matter what gun I use lol I use an exile in PC brah so I'll say what I want when I want got it and like I said I'm not for sidearm only logi read my responses again I just don't want equipment spammer logi slayers LIKE YOU! Ruining it for the rest of us! Anyone else use the old Callogi for a logi before the CPU Nerf? If you don't know what I'm talking about you don't know the pain I've went through because of people like you! So go ahead say what you want. OPEN BETA LOGI MYSELF
Okay hardcore dudebrah, you use an exile in PC. Here's a cookie. So you used tre cal logi when it was the slayer fit of choice and stuck with it. Calm your ****.
Open beta crap doesnt fly with me, open beta Minmatar logi myself, 54 million SP later its the first and last suit I have at proto.
I'm talking since it was the least popular medium suit in all of dust, when it had the hacking bonus. So no, I don't know nor care about 'the pain' of getting my logi nerfed because it was a slayer fit of choice.
Only after all the equipment got nerfed (shall we say rebalanced), and I had to diversify my suits to get the most out of what worked well on just one, my minmatar.
Logis still have the light weapon like always and have the worst K/S ratio of all the suits to boot. So your slayer logis fears are pulled straight out of 2013, because it hasn't been like that for a long time. But dont take my word for it, here ya go, have Rattatis data insight, and gain some insight.
EDIT: We are starting to derail this thread into 'who's a true logi', we can continue this argument in GD, but lets just leave this thread for feedback on the slots.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.29 12:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Al the destroyer wrote:
So you don't know what I'm talking about. I used the callogi as a logi from the first day it came out. It was a fabulous suit in fact it was so good everyone in PC started using it to slay. I don't care if people used it to slay that's there choice, but it got hit with the Nerf hammer so hard it quickly became the worst suit in the game. I don't want to re-live it. Im willing to give up killing power for my logis to run faster and have more HP. If we're going to change it that's the direction I would like to see it go.
As slot progression goes I think the 4/4/4 at proto should be good for all amarr and cal to lose 1 equipment slot for sidearm is fine. I like Sabers new idea of % fitting cost for light weapon that's the best I've heard so far. That way guys like me could run a sidearm and get full fitting with better speed and HP. Guys like you would have to trade some fitting to run a light weapon. I don't like the idea of any logi suit being less than 3 equipment slots hell a basic scout has 2.
The logi suit all need some more HP and speed so we can hang in the fight. Maybe give the assault suit 2 equipment slots I don't know slayer logi is not really a problem now but we can't keep up with the fight even using a lesser weapon because we are too slow to begin with. The basic gal and amarr logi suits are terrible and need to be fixed I'm not sure how to do that with 3 equipment slot but all basic logi suits need 3 to do the job.
Maybe a utility slot for all logi suits where a sidearm would go with flat slot progression use it for equip if you want or put a sidearm with a fitting cost 2/2/2 for basic 3/2/3 for adv 4/3/4 reduction all would have the utility slot and a % fitting reduction cost if a light weapon is used, if a side arm is used another fitting reduction
Heres where we agree:
- Cal Logi and Gal logi need a normalized slot layout: When the tieracide comes, it wont be an issue, bu i've always found the std logi slot count shocking.
- Logis need more speed: Certainly and we are going to get it, according to this thread
On the fence:
-Logis need more HP: Could it more usefull, certainly wont turn it down. But you can stack a great deal of eHP on every logi, except the minmatar one at proto. I can squueze about 800+ ehp on my adv cal logi. between 700 - 500 on the others. Leave the HP to the assaults. They are more combat oriented and need it more than logis do.
Disagree:
Utility weapons slot: Like i stated earlier, those are all niche weapons for other specialzed suits. Logis need general purpose weapons. The rifles fufill that role already.
If you, or the devs provide evidence that light weapon logis were getting out of hand, like the light weapon heavies, or were getting the most kills, I'd be with you. Yet because there is no evidence to support logis have been abusing light weapons, this is trying to fix what isn't broken.
Adding a utitility slot with a sidearm or a gimped light weapon, it just make logis a poor mans commando.
I understand your points, and i do empathize with a lot of them, despite my harsh language in earlier posts. Believe me, i fly a lot, so i know whats its like to have something nerfed to hell because people gamed the system. #hotfixdelta #RIPderpship # never forget
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 12:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I have a hard time believing the up link story....
Most uplinks I kill have no logis around them.
Most uplinks I get killed at have no logis near them.
How about this for a challenge?
Remove ALL weapon and grenade slots.
Balance them as they are without any consideration for any weapons in mind as they're not a weapon class to begin with.
Then decide which things to add back for the offensive kits.
You're drunk, go home.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 12:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Kero's first set of comments:
I'm talking against my own playstyle here, but it really makes sense for logis to lose Grenade slot and leave it to suits more inclined to breaching places. Especially, as logis are the ones most likely to be able to supply their own spam hives.
[/list]
I agree with everything except this last part. Assaults spam grenades just as well as (if not better) than logis now. STD nanohives are 6 per equipment slot. Any suit with an equipment slot can spam as often as a logi.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 11:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of logi layouts that are very terrible for the given role slot and stat wise without weapons.
Thought experiment 2 the lot of you need to perform
Give Assaults and Logis the same H/L
assign them weapons and equipment slots to differentiate.
Justify it.
We aleready have this.
Min Logi and Min assault has identical H/L. Min Assault is faster,more HP, and a sidearmm and is a slayer fit. Min Logi, is the OG logi. NBiether suit can be substituted for the other. Min Logi is terrible slayer fit, and sorry, you cant Logi properly with one equipment. System works just fine.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Thought experiment three
Give assaults +2 eq slots.
Make logi good at support under this environment.
Assault with more HP, speed, rep tool, needle. Assaults are now selfsuffecient and dont need logis, and can for the most part replace them. Its a stupid idea.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Thought experiment 4
Remove EQ from Assaults
Justify using assaults over logis?
Herp derp, err you can't?
Really have you put any actual thought into these thought experiments? I dont think you're shitposting on purpose, but you might as well ask Breaking Stuff what he thinks about a Sentinel with a cloak, 5 equipment slots and a large blaster as a sidearm, or Dust Fiend what he thinks about Dropships with forgeguns as landing gear.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 23:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Thank you for affirming that you're the last person I need to listen to for any logi changes.
Your unwillingness to even skin a cat one way means you are not going to question exceptionally poor design decisions as long as it caters to you in a broken manner.
Thats sweet, because you are the last person to discuss it with. Didn't you annoint yourself as the vehicle guy post-Judge?
Also weird, because you are not Ratatti, and therefore not changing anything.
If anything, Cross is the Logi dude and has been focused on changes and gathering feedback about logis from logis for a year now. He's actually fufilling his role as a community representative in this matter. Just let him deal with it.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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