DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] Logistics Slot Progression

Bright Cloud wrote:

1)Just stop arguing you put plates on a caldari suit which is allready enough of a indicator that you are a scrub. If you want to armor tank then chose gallente or amarr. And ofcourse shields are about mobility thats why kincats and kardio regulators are LOWSLOT MODULES. They enhance your sprint speed and stamina. What you think amarr assaults run usually? kincats and shields not bricktank to the max like a scrublord as yourself.

2)About "every feedback has value":
no it doesnt, veteran players with alot of gameplay experience are the main group which should be heard. The scrubs should take a number and wait till the important things that those people pushing for are accomplished. Prime example of stupid feedback can be seen in this very thread where the devs actually play with the thought to give logis only sidearms. Yeah right that idea was born from morons for morons. None of the decent playerbase asked for this nor is it necessary.

3)Triage hive bonus is useless. Ofcourse it reps every 1 inside of it but that makes them the perfect target for a core locus grenade which could mean you lost 3 players to that silly thing. While the min. logi can sit over 20m away from its rep target and is with that near impossible to grenade.

4)Good players know every issue about the game and bypass it by adjusting their playstyle. Thats why in PC matches you allmost never see caldari suits due to their garbage damage output and their heavy cannot be supported with reps. The elite group figures out the next optimal thing to run after each patch in less then a day. Thats what makes them competetive. Every 1 else just copy pastes their playstyles and calls it a day.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:28:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The Eristic wrote: 8 slots + 4 equip + Light + Sidearm on all four in exchange for the grenade slot? Or sidearm on just Amarr/Cal for the grenade? hmmm, that's certainly an option. I think the grenade fits the amarr combat logi idea though, so... I enjoy using flux grenades on all of my logi's, but I think there's some potential balance issues in regards to callogi & core locus grenades (54-81 grenades per spawn depending on what proto nanohive you have). Honestly, I think logi's should be 8-9 slots, grenade, no sidearm, 4 equipment. I run a lot of ewar fit logi's (4 accounts) that use 2-3 complex precision amps and sometimes 2 complex range amps (on callogi) depending on the slot layout I'm given, just because I find that it provides more constant 'use' to my team with the logistics scanning ranges & precision. I also get incredibly frustrated with the callogi because carrying a nanohive often precludes me from using more useful equipment at times (like a drop uplink or a repair tool), I would kill for a 4th equipment on it and happily give up a lowslot for it. At Proto: Caldari: 5high, 3low, Weapon, Grenade, 4 equipment Minmatar: 4high, 4low, Weapon, Grenade, 4 equipment. Gallente: 3High, 5low, Weapon, Grenade, 4 equipment. Amarr: 3high, (4?) 5low, Weapon, Sidearm, Grenade, (3?) 4equipment. (This is really up to the amarr if they want to trade an equipment or a lowslot for a sidearm or if they want to lose the sidearm and gain an equipment/lowslot). Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:51:00 - [2] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. Logi's already have a disadvantage vs assaults though - HP & Regen. Flux grenades are way too useful, especially when dealing with glitchy equipment. I'm not sure if it's even possible but what would limiting logi's to flux grenades be like? What if we actually implemented grenade 'sizes', with heavies getting the 'large' grenade slots (special contact grenades/very nasty heavy av grenades), assaults getting the mediums (the current run of grenades), and logi's getting 'light' grenades (same radius but half damage?). Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:02:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nade lost on logis and giving them all side arms instead would make them distinctively disadvantaged vs an assault. Logi's already have a disadvantage vs assaults though - HP & Regen. Flux grenades are way too useful, especially when dealing with glitchy equipment. I'm not sure if it's even possible but what would limiting logi's to flux grenades be like? What if we actually implemented grenade 'sizes', with heavies getting the 'large' grenade slots (special contact grenades/very nasty heavy av grenades), assaults getting the mediums (the current run of grenades), and logi's getting 'light' grenades (same radius but half damage?). I am fearful that having grenade sizes would be a complexity for complexity's sake and will serve no real function. Possibly. I think there are some balance upsides to it though. It would allow logi's to keep grenades without core locus idiocy being present everywhere or allowing them to 'overperform' against suits that they probably shouldnt (lol allotek flux & combat rifle vs cal/minsent). It also potentially gives heavies a unique and limited but nasty grenade option. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 12:18:00 - [4] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: what if proto is "only" 7 high/lows I was actually thinking this too. What if a Logi takes the assault fitting, and simply drags the sidearm, and two more slots into EQ. Carries more equipment - is less combat effective. Working as intended Seven slots is ~~prettymuch~~ a unilateral nerf. Logi's are already lacking in hp and regen values compared to assaults - yes they get marginally higher inherent armor rep, at the cost of much worse shield recharge and longer delays. 8 high/low slots is fine, it allows for some flexability and utility oriented fittings without completely giving up HP. I'll still be able to create a cal ewar logi for example with 2precision in highs and 2 range in lows - the one I currently run can die to a single shotgun shot if I'm not incredibly careful and that's with one more low Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 22:15:00 - [5] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Making Logis Sidearm only but retaining the grenade slot I think is the step in the right direction. We have excellent Sidearms now, and when I need to switch to a weapon in my Logi suite I'm usually already in CQC. No, it is not a step in the right direction, sidearms are hilariously bad compared to any primary weapon. Try defending yourself from a shotgun scout with only a magsec. As I've highlighted before, a magsec does ~322 dps at 40m whereas an ARR (which has relatively comparable fitting) does 400ish dps at twice the range. Making logi's sidearm only is a crippling nerf. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:27:00 - [6] - Quote I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. Where previously the amarr logi could only carry 2 - 3 uplinks in a single equipment slot and could only have that many (of one type) active without suit swaps or doubling up on the same piece of equipment (something no one did), it lead to a lot of backtracking to supply depots when an uplink got destroyed as well as a lot of suit swapping to maximize the number of uplinks one could have out. Now you can carry 4-6 uplinks per equipment slot at any given time and having an uplink get destroyed isn't as big of a deal in regards to backtracking as it was previously - you just set out a new piece of equipment. Nor does the amarr logi have to constantly wander as far away from its squad to continually deploy new uplinks and swap suits as it did previously. The crux of the old arguments for the amarr packing a sidearm now falls flat in light of the big (and largely positive) changes to equipment. It's time for the amarr logi to become 'standardized' and give up that sidearm slot in exchange for an equipment (which I'm sure that plenty of amarr logi's would find incredibly more useful). All logi's should have 8 slots, a grenade, a light weapon, NO SIDEARM and four equipment slots. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:29:00 - [7] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Support/utility weapon slot U designation on fitting screen Can fit: Side Arm Light weapon (x% penalty to fitting) Utility weapons IWS. No. Jesus christ no. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:29:00 - [8] - Quote The Eristic wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I'd like to remind people that the primary argument for the amarr keeping their sidearm last time was to defend their uplinks... with the changes to bandwidth and the MASSIVE buffs to carried equipment the need to 'defend' uplinks on the logi itself is no longer quite the case. It's not necessarily about keeping the links themselves up, it's keeping BONUSED links up. Were the Amarr's bonus retained until you spawned (or swapped to) a different suit, your point might be more accurate, but as is, the bonus is lost on death, so defending yourself is defending your links. I'd ultimately be fine with no sidearms and slot equalization on all four, but there is most definitely still defensive value in the sidearm on the Amarr (and would be on the Cal, too, though your team isn't suddenly stuck with long, limited spawns when the Cal goes down, just less ammo - Cal could stand a bonus to needles or something while we're at it). Your defense should be your team. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.31 10:42:00 - [9] - Quote I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest. Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be **ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot". I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:59:00 - [10] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest. Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be **ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot". I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.01 02:48:00 - [11] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:44:00 - [12] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? *Vae victis* While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question... I feel that successfully taking on an amarr logi and dropping the bonus on their links is more of an 'emergent gameplay' thing and a reward to the people that killed the logi, rather than a huge massive bigbad problem with the amarr logi. I'm not 100% but i believe they retain / reapply their bonus so long as they spawn out in an amarr logi dropsuit, but even if they dont - Woe to the Vanquished. Get your team to protect you better, or learn to support them better. I still do not feel that the amarr either need or should have a sidearm (especially when trading a highslot for it... the equipment slot is more balanced, but I'd still like to see all logi's hit 4 equip), their first line of defense should be their team. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:48:00 - [13] - Quote I've talked about this in triage ward, but logi's bonuses do in most cases are directly influenced by their eve 'warfare' doctrines. Caldari = Siege warfare, they take a place and entrench it with nanohives and rep hives - making them incredibly hard to push out. Their bonus amplifies the strength of their ability to hold a position. Gallente = Information warfare, the scanner allows you to gain information about your enemies movements, and deny them information either through skillful avoidance or assassination. The bonus allows them to see more things, for longer durations. Amarr = Armored warfare, this is a bit of a stretch but in traditional armored warfare doctrines it's all about supply lines the amarr logi is able to dramatically shorten the length of time it takes to bring their slowest but most overbearingly powerful heavily armored units to the front of a fight even if a heavily armored unit gets downed. Their bonus further shortens spawn times and increases the duration that their shortened supply lines stay active. Minmatar = skirmish warfare, unlike the caldari nanohives, the rep tool is infinitely relocateable and has an infinite supply of HP repair allowing the minmatar logi to follow his squad wherever combat takes them, the bonus to rep tool also allows them to rep from further out and repair damage even faster, sustaining his squad (especially with the usual minmatar mixed HP) through skirmishes with units that should theoretically overpower them. I think their bonuses make perfect sense. A single drop uplink can certainly help be part of an incursion into an area, but an amarr logi drop uplink says "we're making a heavy offensive here". A single nanohive restores some ammo or HP, a callogi nanohive says "We're going to hold this position". A rep tool says "I want to be able to support my team no matter where the battle goes", a min logi rep tool says "I am going to provide the BEST support to my team, no matter where we go". An active scanner goes "I want to see hostiles before they see us" a gallogi scanner says "I am dedicated to providing my squad with the best information they need to take down their opponents, while not getting taken down themselves". Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.06 08:50:00 - [14] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: The Eristic wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Could we please change the cal. logi bonus to something usefull? The cal logi also needs some love in the bonus area. +3% per level to HP restored on injectors in addition to the hive bonus? (Would say 4%, but wouldn't want to make the State Kaal needle pointless.) Instantly makes it more useful in the combat zone, especially keeping high HP suits up and pushing. I say it again: nanohive bonuses are useless. Nobody wants them, nobody needs them cause every 1 can carry 6 nanohives and replenish ammo allready fast enough with X-3 quantum nanohives. I want that the cal. logi gets a complete revamp on its bonus. It should be the logi which aids shield suits in combat. It should be the exact mirror to the min. logi with a shield recharger tool instead of a reptool. I actually quite like nanohive bonuses on my callogi, though the meta has greatly shifted so that everyone is packing around nanohives on their assaults, and no one carries needles because they live in permanent terror of the "dirty needle" hurting their KDR. For a generalized logistics bonus, I'd say that nanite injectors should pick people up with a bit more HP, this might cause people to be a bit more trusting of the needle again. Gallente logi: Currently fine - can be a bit starved for warpoints at times though, maybe simply give 1 warpoint per 4 seconds of detection per enemy, for detecting enemies with a scanner... not sure if this would be entirely balanced. Min logi: also currently fine. Amarr logi: uplink bonus is very powerful, but can be lost when dead (I feel this is emergent gameplay, but people could argue about this forever) Cal logi: Its current bonus is good... if people stay in one place at all. With the large buffs to carried nanohives the cal logi has its work cut out for it in the morass of relevancy, I'd suggest dialing back the amount of carried nanohives back on all other suits and giving the callogi a 20% increase in the amount of carried nanohives per level. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.07 07:22:00 - [15] - Quote El just spitballing, but something like say, 18% resistance to splash damage for nanohives per level for callogi? So direct hits would still take them out, but at level 5 callogi they only take 10% damage from grenades/mass drivers (Flux damage is absolutely insane though, so this might need tweaking yet). And bright cloud, maybe lay off being quite so argumentative and willing to attack others or call them names, lets have a civil discussion here rather than just calling other people **ING IDIOTS! Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 03:44:00 - [16] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: A civil discussion can only be achieved with people who play competetive. 90% of the players that give feedback in this thread probs havent played a single PC match or are playing in the scrub bracket of the matchmaking. You can come back if you at least achieve a weekly K/D of 3 with the current matchmaking without redline sniping. This is outright incorrect and serves only to paint you as an idiot. Thanks for holding up a sign that says "Ignore me / I'm a judgemental prick" though. All constructive feedback has value - not necessarily EQUAL value, but it has value. No matter who it comes from. Being good at a videogame is not a requirement of being intelligent or being capable of critical thought... and this thread isn't asking for people to be good at dust, it's asking for intelligent discussion and critical thought. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 08:03:00 - [17] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: 1)Just stop arguing you put plates on a caldari suit which is allready enough of a indicator that you are a scrub. If you want to armor tank then chose gallente or amarr. And ofcourse shields are about mobility thats why kincats and kardio regulators are LOWSLOT MODULES. They enhance your sprint speed and stamina. What you think amarr assaults run usually? kincats and shields not bricktank to the max like a scrublord as yourself. 2)About "every feedback has value": no it doesnt, veteran players with alot of gameplay experience are the main group which should be heard. The scrubs should take a number and wait till the important things that those people pushing for are accomplished. Prime example of stupid feedback can be seen in this very thread where the devs actually play with the thought to give logis only sidearms. Yeah right that idea was born from morons for morons. None of the decent playerbase asked for this nor is it necessary. 3)Triage hive bonus is useless. Ofcourse it reps every 1 inside of it but that makes them the perfect target for a core locus grenade which could mean you lost 3 players to that silly thing. While the min. logi can sit over 20m away from its rep target and is with that near impossible to grenade. 4)Good players know every issue about the game and bypass it by adjusting their playstyle. Thats why in PC matches you allmost never see caldari suits due to their garbage damage output and their heavy cannot be supported with reps. The elite group figures out the next optimal thing to run after each patch in less then a day. Thats what makes them competetive. Every 1 else just copy pastes their playstyles and calls it a day. 1) Wait, you thought I was talking about myself? Lol. Even if we were talking about myself you realize that there are values between the extremes of "ALL ARMOR PLATES" or "NO ARMOR PLATES". Shield regulators are also low slot modules, as are profile damps and hack speed - by your logic shield tanks are about hacking fast and being unscannable. I also see we're already beginning the namecalling early with this post eh? 2) This is special pleading. Everyone who plays this game has the right to be heard and provide feedback, not just the 'elite'... particularly because the elite are only concerned with the elite. With this mentality [flavor of the month thing] would never, ever be nerfed because according to the 'elite' nothing is wrong with it. 3)This is an opinion, followed by a contrived situation. I could as easily say that 'rep tools are stupid because you can just kill the logi, but a well placed triage hive continues to rep even if the logi is dead or isn't around!'. You haven't made a strong point here. 4) This is largely too dumb to address or it doesn't make any actual points. That said though, I was under the impression that the cal sentinel was relatively popular in PC due to its resistance to the hmg (though it was outshone by the amarr sentinel that could stack a lot more hp), they both had pretty decent representation. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.