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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 12:14:00 -
[181] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Kero's first set of comments:
I'm talking against my own playstyle here, but it really makes sense for logis to lose Grenade slot and leave it to suits more inclined to breaching places. Especially, as logis are the ones most likely to be able to supply their own spam hives.
[/list]
I agree with everything except this last part. Assaults spam grenades just as well as (if not better) than logis now. STD nanohives are 6 per equipment slot. Any suit with an equipment slot can spam as often as a logi.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.05.30 14:23:00 -
[182] - Quote
Just realised.
If logis (or any other suit for that matter) have less HIs and LOWs,
then they will be unable to do have EWAR fits as those are created by stacking relevant modules.
...Not that passive scans are the logis' main function...
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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Zaria Min Deir
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 14:24:00 -
[183] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
While the cald-logi was desiged in chromosome, it had extra fitting slot for no apparent reason. It has carried over, even through anti-slayer logi nerfs for some reason.
Cald-logis extra slot can be taken away with no reimbursement for it. BUT the cald-logi nevertheless needs some love for it's rather lacking role bonus.
Um. No, the Caldari logi has that extra module slot in exchange for having one less equipment than the Minmatar or Gallente. So, that extra slot being taken away should come with the missing equipment being added to it. And, yes, it also needs other things, like fixing the CPU for a start.
Pokey Dravon wrote:Im amazed people are still trying to push for the Sidearm only Logi.
Because "It's Support"?
Isn't a Scout supposed to be Stealth/EWAR? So by a similar logic would they not be Sidearm Only too?
How about we stop trying to strip away essentials from suits and instead focus on giving Assaults something unique that Logis cant replicate?
So much this.
Have you considered installing the improved keyboard?
"Go Go Power Rangers!"
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.05.30 14:45:00 -
[184] - Quote
Zaria Min Deir wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
While the cald-logi was desiged in chromosome, it had extra fitting slot for no apparent reason. It has carried over, even through anti-slayer logi nerfs for some reason.
Cald-logis extra slot can be taken away with no reimbursement for it. BUT the cald-logi nevertheless needs some love for it's rather lacking role bonus.
Um. No, the Caldari logi has that extra module slot in exchange for having one less equipment than the Minmatar or Gallente. So, that extra slot being taken away should come with the missing equipment being added to it. And, yes, it also needs other things, like fixing the CPU for a start.
Ahh, my bad. I remembered This sheet from 07/05/2013
That focused on combat capabilities,
summing up the total fitting modules slots - but did not count Eqs for that.
Therefore listed value was 9 for ck.0, 6 for poor ak.0 and 8 for others.
Btw, if someone wants to look how OP and UP some suits of those were, have a look at bonuses listed on this sheet.
That was a good example by even looking at stats/bonus combo one can tell something was a slaying beast.
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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R F Gyro
Clones 4u
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 15:27:00 -
[185] - Quote
For equipment slot progression my preference would be 3/4/4 (std/adv/pro).
I'd be happy to see the primary weapon slot removed, if "carbine" versions of the three main rifles were introduced; sidearm slots, less range, less damage.
For more radical logi rebalancing...
* Get rid of drop uplinks entirely, replaced with an uplink module that allows players to spawn in on the logi's location.
** Even better, have the player spawn 150m -above- the logi, and drop in :-)
* Get rid of nanohives entirely, replaced with a nanite beam tool working like the repair tool
* Get rid of the 80% and 100% injectors, so logis have to rep up the players they've just revived
* Add shield transporters as well as armor repair tools
Even more radical...
* Make a "logistics tool" that uses a primary weapon slot; use current repair tool model and effects
* Replace equipment slots with selectable nanite crystals that change the function of the logi tool
** Armor repair crystal (as current repair tool)
** Shield projection crystal
** Ammo synthesis crystal (replaces nanohive with an ammo transfer beam)
** Recovery crystal - replaces injector, hold beam on a body for a couple of seconds to revive
** Remote stamina transfer crystal
* With no equipment slots, many existing modules become sidearm or low slots
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
19
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Posted - 2015.05.30 19:29:00 -
[186] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I have a hard time believing the up link story....
Most uplinks I kill have no logis around them.
Most uplinks I get killed at have no logis near them.
How about this for a challenge?
Remove ALL weapon and grenade slots.
Balance them as they are without any consideration for any weapons in mind as they're not a weapon class to begin with.
Then decide which things to add back for the offensive kits. You're drunk, go home.
That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of logi layouts that are very terrible for the given role slot and stat wise without weapons.
Thought experiment 2 the lot of you need to perform
Give Assaults and Logis the same H/L
assign them weapons and equipment slots to differentiate.
Justify it.
CPM 1, Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
19
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Posted - 2015.05.30 20:03:00 -
[187] - Quote
Thought experiment three
Give assaults +2 eq slots.
Make logi good at support under this environment.
CPM 1, Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
19
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Posted - 2015.05.30 20:26:00 -
[188] - Quote
Thought experiment 4
Remove EQ from Assaults
Justify using assaults over logis?
CPM 1, Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 22:43:00 -
[189] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
Sidearm only is bad IMO for a number of reasons. Either leave the logi with the ability to use a basic rifle or skip the weapons entirely and let logi be a full on support with no weapons but very potent reps (and add the option to bring shield reps).
No thank you on the bolded.
How does his idea even keep coming up?
Reps, btw, are potent as hell already at pro. How much extra potency would you consider to be "very potent" without being just immortality beams? I ask because there are occasional calls for beam nerf since multiple logis on one target can create immortal soldiers already.
Open-Beta Vet.
Egbinger Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 22:45:00 -
[190] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Just realised.
If logis (or any other suit for that matter) have less HIs and LOWs,
then they will be unable to do have EWAR fits as those are created by stacking relevant modules.
...Not that passive scans are the logis' main function...
Depends on where that logi knows he's going and what he knows he'll be doing there...
Open-Beta Vet.
Egbinger Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 04:09:00 -
[191] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Dear players,
here we have the weirdest slot progression in all of DUST 514.
I tried once before, was washed away in a tidal wave of tears, but now we must once more unto the breach.
(image snip)
We see that not only is there a discrepancy in total slots (I would understand it if there was a strict "this is traded for that", but there isn't really) so what I propose is that we define the trade-offs and normalize from there.
Why does Gallente always have one lower than Minmatar? Logis need a buff so let's go with Minmatar slots.
PG/CPU will certainly be normalized, for poor Calogi. I suspect it was being punished for old sins, that's the only rational reason I see for the capacity difference.
Amarr Sidearm = Trade Equipment, Low Slot or both?
Caldari Extra High Slot = Trade Equipment, Light weapon down grade to Sidearm, or both
Equipment normalized progression: 2/3/4 STD/ADV/PRO
High/Low normalized progression based on Minmatar: 4/6/8 STD/ADV/PRO
I am sitting on a community proposal as well, that I will factor in with your direct forum feedback.
First, thank you CCP Rattati for taking this on again. Secondly, this thread has been pretty enjoyable to read since the majority of the folks in here are actively trying to engage and we haven't gotten off the rails too much.
Like many of other veteran team support players in the thread, i've run Logi since the games been around. The majority of my time in Dust has been running Cal Logi until the last 4 or 5 months where I've picked up more and more Gal / Min logi time.
I'll address the direct question by Rattati first then add a bit of additional perspective.
1) I believe we need a 3/4/4 equipment progression (4/4/4 would be quite acceptable as well). I think the 4/6/8 slot progression is also acceptable if CPU / PG and perhaps defensive stats are given targeted increases.
2) Absolutely concur with CPU/PG upgrades for the Call Logi. If this is done well then eliminating the 4th low slot is no issue.
3a) Amarr logi's can keep the side arm. Caveat - I have no points into any Amarr suits other than the Heavy.
3b) Cal Logi.... I would prefer the 4th equipment slot. That said, the sidearm addition would be a personal boon to me and allow me to have viable AV fits without risking the majority of any equipment that i've put on the field. Bottom line, I can make either work and at this point - JUST PICK ONE.
Ok...some additional points spurred by folks in the thread:
a) I absolutely disagree with pulling either light weapons or grenades from Logi suits. As Fox eloquently said, "Logi's are specialists not pacifists." For a dedicated support player on more than a few occasions the best support you can provide in a situation is often with your weapon. Grenades are too utilitarian to pull from the Logis for no real reason either.
An alternate option might be to incentivize the use of sidearms for Logi and Scouts with bonus to using those weapons but not limiting them from using LW.
b) Slot progression and eHP / Speed shifts are an excellent place to start...HOWEVER,...there are some other base stats that need to be looked at that are in some cases as important. The innate regen (whether shield or armor) on the Logi class needs to be given a moderate increase. If survival is going to be predicated on speed and agility vs tank then the thread that helps hold that concept together is health regen.
c) While this whole line of discussion seems very positive I cannot stress enough that that the heart of the Logi play centers around equipment usage and relevance coupled with the racial and role bonuses associated with the suits.
- The rep tool is far and away the most valued tool for the logi class. I hesitate to say there is absolute consensus on this but I suspect it's damn close. To that end...why not give all logi suits some form of rep tool bonus as part of the role bonus? Roughly it can be variations on rep efficacy, range, or a combination. Eventually with a shield based rapper you can gain additional options.
- BW and more importantly the # carried changes have also dramatically devalued hives and droplinks. Make no mistake, hives we're the least attractive equipment based bonus in most situations and they are worse off now. Additionally, Needles and remotes have no tie to bonus structure despite being equipment.
I 100% believe that a full relook of the Logi Role & Racial bonus needs to be re-looked with a focus on clean, elegant changes that will increase the operational value of the Logi.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 05:12:00 -
[192] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Thought experiment three
Give assaults +2 eq slots.
Make logi good at support under this environment.
To be honest i miss the 2 equipment slots that proto assaults had in the closed beta. Injectior+nanohives where my alltime favourites.
Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
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Posted - 2015.05.31 07:36:00 -
[193] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:
I 100% believe that a full relook of the Logi Role & Racial bonus needs to be re-looked with a focus on clean, elegant changes that will increase the operational value of the Logi.
For of all, very solid post.
Secondly, bonuses have always been something I've been poking at since....god knows when. What sort of changes do you have in mind in regards to equipment? I know we've discussed moving the Repair Tool to a Role Bonus, but I'm curious to see what else you had in mind.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
594
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Posted - 2015.05.31 08:21:00 -
[194] - Quote
I'd just copy & past the assault layout for each race, take out the sidearm from every logi, and put a 3/3/4 EQ slot progression.
Base HP stats not being as good as assault suits wouldn't bring back the slayer logi + no sidearms.
Do this CCP, make things simple.
Fix the game before trying to add anything else.
(Hint: hit detection, lags, glitches,.. you've got some work :) )
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.05.31 10:42:00 -
[195] - Quote
I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest.
Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be ****ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot".
I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 11:45:00 -
[196] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of logi layouts that are very terrible for the given role slot and stat wise without weapons.
Thought experiment 2 the lot of you need to perform
Give Assaults and Logis the same H/L
assign them weapons and equipment slots to differentiate.
Justify it.
We aleready have this.
Min Logi and Min assault has identical H/L. Min Assault is faster,more HP, and a sidearmm and is a slayer fit. Min Logi, is the OG logi. NBiether suit can be substituted for the other. Min Logi is terrible slayer fit, and sorry, you cant Logi properly with one equipment. System works just fine.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Thought experiment three
Give assaults +2 eq slots.
Make logi good at support under this environment.
Assault with more HP, speed, rep tool, needle. Assaults are now selfsuffecient and dont need logis, and can for the most part replace them. Its a stupid idea.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Thought experiment 4
Remove EQ from Assaults
Justify using assaults over logis?
Herp derp, err you can't?
Really have you put any actual thought into these thought experiments? I dont think you're shitposting on purpose, but you might as well ask Breaking Stuff what he thinks about a Sentinel with a cloak, 5 equipment slots and a large blaster as a sidearm, or Dust Fiend what he thinks about Dropships with forgeguns as landing gear.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Hawkings Greenback
Dead Man's Game
368
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Posted - 2015.05.31 17:54:00 -
[197] - Quote
Rattati dude, i believe you know what needs to be done. You have access to all the relevant in game info and there have been threads with multiple good ideas and time invested in them and also people who know what they are talking about.
I am a logi because of the versatility it affords me in fitting for a support class. I hope at the end of this that this can still be said.
Good luck.
But every night I burn.
Screaming the animal scream.
Every night I burn.
Dreaming the crow-black dream.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
19
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Posted - 2015.05.31 19:38:00 -
[198] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of logi layouts that are very terrible for the given role slot and stat wise without weapons.
Thought experiment 2 the lot of you need to perform
Give Assaults and Logis the same H/L
assign them weapons and equipment slots to differentiate.
Justify it.
We aleready have this. Min Logi and Min assault has identical H/L. Min Assault is faster,more HP, and a sidearmm and is a slayer fit. Min Logi, is the OG logi. NBiether suit can be substituted for the other. Min Logi is terrible slayer fit, and sorry, you cant Logi properly with one equipment. System works just fine. Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Thought experiment three
Give assaults +2 eq slots.
Make logi good at support under this environment. Assault with more HP, speed, rep tool, needle. Assaults are now selfsuffecient and dont need logis, and can for the most part replace them. Its a stupid idea. Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Thought experiment 4
Remove EQ from Assaults
Justify using assaults over logis? Herp derp, err you can't? Really have you put any actual thought into these thought experiments? I dont think you're shitposting on purpose, but you might as well ask Breaking Stuff what he thinks about a Sentinel with a cloak, 5 equipment slots and a large blaster as a sidearm, or Dust Fiend what he thinks about Dropships with forgeguns as landing gear.
Thank you for affirming that you're the last person I need to listen to for any logi changes.
Your unwillingness to even skin a cat one way means you are not going to question exceptionally poor design decisions as long as it caters to you in a broken manner.
CPM 1, Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
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Vitharr Foebane
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.05.31 21:49:00 -
[199] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest.
Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be ****ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot".
I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them.
the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.05.31 21:59:00 -
[200] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest.
Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be ****ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot".
I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus
Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 23:46:00 -
[201] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Thank you for affirming that you're the last person I need to listen to for any logi changes.
Your unwillingness to even skin a cat one way means you are not going to question exceptionally poor design decisions as long as it caters to you in a broken manner.
Thats sweet, because you are the last person to discuss it with. Didn't you annoint yourself as the vehicle guy post-Judge?
Also weird, because you are not Ratatti, and therefore not changing anything.
If anything, Cross is the Logi dude and has been focused on changes and gathering feedback about logis from logis for a year now. He's actually fufilling his role as a community representative in this matter. Just let him deal with it.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.06.01 00:07:00 -
[202] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
Sidearm only is bad IMO for a number of reasons. Either leave the logi with the ability to use a basic rifle or skip the weapons entirely and let logi be a full on support with no weapons but very potent reps (and add the option to bring shield reps).
No thank you on the bolded. How does his idea even keep coming up? Reps, btw, are potent as hell already at pro. How much extra potency would you consider to be "very potent" without being just immortality beams? I ask because there are occasional calls for beam nerf since multiple logis on one target can create immortal soldiers already.
It keeps coming up because it's better than the pretense that "sidearm only" is a remotely viable way for a suit to be run, especially one that is (frequently and currently) being framed has having less combat context mobility than Scouts or Assaults.
If sidearms where truly a viable option for a weapon to the point where it could be the only weapon a role has access to then players who focus on the slayer role would not be so quick to say they'd abandon the assault frame, and it's side arm slot, bonus to fitting side arms, LWs and nades, and bonus to LWs in favor of the logi frame however this very thing happened with merely the suggestion of swapping speed profiles.
Speaking as someone who's been using Reps since before Codex build of closed beta even during the dark times when they gave no WP whatsoever I know exactly how potent they are and when compared with actual grown up EVE level reps they're pretty laughable.
The simple reality of logistics is that either
A) they are supposed to be in the combat zone with the ability to meaningfully defend themselves
B) they are supposed to be in the combat zone without the ability to defend themselves but meaningfully (more) potent support action and/or exclusive access to support equipment.
The pallid psudo option of "C leave them with support options that can be virtually replicated by any class with an equipment slot but nerf their ability to survive/defend themselves so they're not meaningful able to exist in the combat zones where they're supposed to be to supply support" is deeply conceptually flawed and needs to be abandoned entirely.
We have an example in New Eden right now of how support/logistics play looks if said logistics play is not meant to have combat capacity. It looks like having the ability to counter multiple streams of incoming damage and having functionally exclusive access to the support actions/mods.
So either logi need to be "non-combat" and follow the EVE method, including more exclusive access to equipment (and by more it could very well mean total, depending on how things are done) and lose all weapons as well as having the virtues of said support action (specifically reps, with a possible look at others) scaled up.
Or, logi are accepted as combat mercs who are supposed to be combat mercs and have a focus on providing more support than their counterparts at the expense of less on board support for their dps output (i.e. lack of role bonuses to damage).
This is following the method established for other roles like Sentinels and Scouts both of whom are combat mercs who havea focus on providing field assets other than a specialization on dps, while the Commandos and Assaults are combat roles that specialize in providing above mechanical average dps output with their racial weapons.
To be sure the actual mechanics for all of these things could use a look, but the concepts are pretty straight forward.
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.06.01 00:09:00 -
[203] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:I'd just copy & past the assault layout for each race, take out the sidearm from every logi, and put a 3/3/4 EQ slot progression.
Base HP stats not being as good as assault suits wouldn't bring back the slayer logi + no sidearms.
Do this CCP, make things simple.
Assuming that they still fit their proper place in the role/game wide Speed/HP curve this seems pretty reasonable.
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Vitharr Foebane
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.06.01 00:13:00 -
[204] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest.
Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be ****ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot".
I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm.
is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented?
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.06.01 00:19:00 -
[205] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:I want to address an elephant in the room here: I do not think people arguing for keeping the sidearm on the amarr logi (in exchange for a high slot) are arguing in good faith or without conflicts of interest.
Making a 'trade' of ~70 non-primary tank or a single 'utility' slot (without much that can actually go there) for a sidearm is a non-choice. You'd have to be ****ing dumb to not want the options that sidearm presents, especially if you're getting buffed up to 4 equipment anyways. It comes down to a question of "Will ccp actually let me have the same layout as my racial assault, but with 3 more equipment slots and one lower high slot".
I firmly feel that logistics should be standardized and that the amarr should be losing the sidearm, as carried equipment buffs have largely addressed some of the concerns present to them. the increased carried equipment is a non factor if you are dead. no pulse, no bonus. Amarr Logi needs the ability to defend itself and it's bonus Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm. is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented?
This is a more relevant point that it may seem to some who are not directly familiar with the mechanics of the Amarr bonus to uplinks. Specifically the fact that the bonus does not function while the logi player is dead, meaning that every moment the Amarr logi spends dead is a moment that the entire racial support bonus of the Amarr logi provides no benefit for the logis team. As long as the "turned off while dead" mechanic remains in place, the Amarr logi defending itself so it is able to stay alive and thus providing it's racial bonus, actually is supporting it's squad.
(I personally have long wanted to "off while dead" mechanic to be removed, which would also remove the above argument for the sidearm, but while it remains the reasons for an Amarr - and perhaps Caldari who's bonus works in a similar way - to have a sidearm likewise remains).
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.06.01 02:48:00 -
[206] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:
Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm.
is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented?
Vae victis
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
600
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Posted - 2015.06.01 05:57:00 -
[207] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Sequal's Back wrote:I'd just copy & past the assault layout for each race, take out the sidearm from every logi, and put a 3/3/4 EQ slot progression.
Base HP stats not being as good as assault suits wouldn't bring back the slayer logi + no sidearms.
Do this CCP, make things simple. Assuming that they still fit their proper place in the role/game wide Speed/HP curve this seems pretty reasonable. EDIT: The debate about the Amarr layout aside 
Agreed about the Amarr Logi ^^ Some tweaks will probably have to be done but that's a good and simple way. Shayz did a quite good thread about the Amarr Logi btw.
WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
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Vitharr Foebane
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.06.01 06:32:00 -
[208] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:
Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm.
is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? Vae victis
While I appreciate learning something new today that is more of a red herring then an answer to my question...
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.06.01 06:42:00 -
[209] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:
Logistics are team oriented - their first line of defense should be their team, their last line should be their own light weapon. You do not need a sidearm.
is staying alive and defending your links so that your squad can spawn back in not team oriented? Vae victis
Are logi stealing mottos from Blood Omen now? I mean I'm down, but I didn't know we were ready to air those publicly yet  (yes I'm aware that this has a historical context that pre-dates those games, but where's the fun in that  )
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4
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Posted - 2015.06.01 06:43:00 -
[210] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Sequal's Back wrote:I'd just copy & past the assault layout for each race, take out the sidearm from every logi, and put a 3/3/4 EQ slot progression.
Base HP stats not being as good as assault suits wouldn't bring back the slayer logi + no sidearms.
Do this CCP, make things simple. Assuming that they still fit their proper place in the role/game wide Speed/HP curve this seems pretty reasonable. EDIT: The debate about the Amarr layout aside Agreed about the Amarr Logi ^^ Some tweaks will probably have to be done but that's a good and simple way. Shayz did a quite good thread about the Amarr Logi btw.
Indeed, also interested in the results of that poll. 
CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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