2/27/2015
Defining the class - Base Stats

Addressing the RedBleachproposal again

HP Regen
Part of the Original discussions for Cross' proposal concerning health and stamina pools were whether a logi should have a greater pool or higher recharge rates. We usually see the progression in HP as Higher HP Pools = Lower Shield Recharge rates and with Stamina we see the same but logis are continually the exception and messing up the Battle Standard. To be randomly made weaker to explain carrying equipment I guess.... BUT that only works IFF all logi suits were
distinctly different from a scout with 2 EQ. But currently there is a lack of balanced reasons for the current setup.

In many ways the logi has stats closer to Scout and assault and at other times closer to the sentinel and commando sides.
This is common knowledge to this community, I know. I'm just trying to think where the line should be drawn.

HP Pool: Current
Sentinel> Commando> Assault> Logi> Scout
Each Logi gains about 60hp total

Shield regen amount: Current
Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel - Cal is outlier.
Disparity was too great. A greater value than the Assaults is in order because of Lower HP
Amount is now between Assault and Scout.

Shield delays:
Scout> Logi> Assault> Commando> Sentinel - Cal is outlier.
Maintained but closer to scout than Assault.

Stamina pool and rate are:
Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel
Previously decided to have larger Stamina pools between that of an assault and scout (we do just lug crap everywhere) and lesser recovery rate than an assault.
Stamina Pool is between Scout and Assault now:
Scout> Logi> Assault> Commando> Sentinel

Stamina Recovery Rate:
Scout> Assault> Logi> Commando> Sentinel

Armor regen should be better for a logi due to the nature of the class, but this doesn't follow HP pool rules with all classes. That would mean that sentinels would have the highest repair rate and scouts the lowest, but it turns out that commandos and Logis were on par with repair rates and sentinels were just above scouts. Bizarre
So, Armor repair rates are now the best between all the classes.

Scanning profiles kept the same.

Scanning precision up ( technically down):
Able to detect the micro deformities in the ships they work on per lore :) = High F-ing Precision.

Scan Radius
Increased to Allow the Logi to be the master of Ewar Scanning.

Movement Speed
faster walk, slower sprint.

Scanning precision up (down):
Able to detect the micro deformities in the ships they work on = High F-ing Precision.

Scan Radius
Increased to Allow the Logi to be the master of Ewar Scanning.

I like the changes, but just curious about the ewar change why better than the scout? Their role is supposed to be recon, even though they play fast assault more. I don't mind being able to see more and further just kind of stomping on some toes, I think.

Perhaps the Scout's role was once recon, but this is certainly not the case today.

You are quite right, scouts decided that they needed to be fast assaults and have become more aggressive and In your face. According to you this was decided and vetted in the Barber Shop.

1. Maybe we should put the scout discussion somewhere else, but I think right now, the scouts are not recon, but infiltration units.

2. For that I've proposed a special EQ for them: Stealth Uplinks, they'd have 5 spawns and would be undetectable by any scanner, and they'd have super fast spawn times. These would allow a full squad spawn in, that would obviously consist of one or two logis plus several slayers to take an objective.

3. Good E-war on logis makes sense because they are so squishy. They should be able to see the scout flanking in their back first, to give them any chance to evade or react.

4. For scout recon, I'd like to see SR visual scans (line of sight) being shared with squad or team... this would give snipers a role apart from being an annoying bunch of campers, maybe just a skill for scout suits...

Integer tweaks alone aren't going to fix the Role Bleed in the Recon Department. But I see your point; too many moving parts. Will try again ...

Idea: EWAR Untangled, V2.0 (now with Integer Tweaks!)

* Reduce cloak-blind from 85% to 45%
* CA Scout - Change bonus to Scan Precision + Range
* AM Scout - Change bonus to Biotics Efficacy
* GA Logi - Change bonus to Scan Duration + Cooldown
* 20 dB Active Scanners - Change to 18 dB
* 28 dB Active Scanners - Change to 25 dB
* 36 dB Active Scanners - Change to 33 dB
* 46 dB Active Scanners - Change to 40 dB

EWAR Untangled, V2.1 (to follow)
If GalLogi remains only competitive recon unit, reduce cloak-blind from 45% to 0%
If CalScout becomes the only competitive recon unit, increase cloak-blind from 45% to 65%
If GalLogi and CalScout appear to be "sharing" the role of recon, then make no change

See you in another couple months I guess...

Hi, John! I'd wondered where you went.

I'll bet it is on the radar; Pokey popped in, so it has to be.

Well, be sure to let me know when that happens.

1. "STD Logis need +1 EQ slot b/c Role Bleed potential by STD Scout" is no more or less pertinent than "Recon Scouts need new roles b/c of Role Bleed by GalLogi". So long as EWAR overlap remains at issue between the two classes, we've little choice but to discuss the classes jointly when it comes to EWAR. Further, any discussion involving EWAR changes should take into account effects on and perspectives of all EWAR-oriented classes.

2. I like this.

3. The problem with passive scans is that they're potentially shared six ways. An EWAR Logi might be squishy, but the Heavy he's repping isn't squishy, nor is the blob which surrounds him. All potentially benefit from his passive scans. AM and CA Scouts suited for Recon were significantly squishier than Logis (like 300HP squishy) yet their strong scans were ruled to be imbalanced, even after cloakblind! The "squishiness" factor proved to be an insufficient counter-balance and their scans were ruled to be "OP Wallhacks" ... and this was for units whose only competitive function was to provide zero-WP scans. Imagine the tears had those scans come from a tankier, multi-function and WP-saturated EWAR Logi.

4. I like this as well.

---

Idea: EWAR Untangled - Scouts as Scouts & Logis as Support

* Remove Scan Range, Scan Precision bonuses from CA and AM Scouts.
* Buff Scan Precision and/or Range of all Logis.
* Remove and replace bonus to Active Scans from GA Logi.
* Racially rebrand Active Scanners (AM Scanners squad-wide, CA Scanners team-wide).
* AM Scout receives Precision and/or Duration bonus to AM Scanners.
* CA Scout receives Cooldown and/or Range bonus to CA Scanners.
* Tune Passive and Active Scans where needed to adjust for any imbalance.

Huh. So, figured I'd stop in after a month or so, aaaand... Yeah, nothing different.

No blue tag, no meaningful new input from CCP but a ton of new irrelevant trash from Apidem, and El Operator is still making way too much sense to be ignored saying "I understand what you're saying, do not agree, this is why and you should take those ideas elsewhere since while perhaps worthy of discussion (to some) this thread isn't the place" every time a scout suffering from buyers remorse for trying to not be balanced by simple adjusment but instead by a multitude of minor effects whose realized they should have just considered and consented to the former posts something.
*sigh*

See you in another couple months I guess...

>The barber shop.

Hypocrite.

A)Nah, the last thing we need is another overhaul. We're very close to balance as is, no need for radical changes which could take months and many iterations to fix.


B) I'm dubious as to whether or not logis actually need to be looked at much, but I don't play logi too much so I guess I'm willing to take the word of more experienced players.

C) If I were to make changes it would be to a) reduce the cost of equipment across the board

D) and b) tiericide logi dropsuit equipment slots so STD suits could fit as much equipment as PRO suits can. Does that sound reasonable?

What he said. We get plenty of visitors and don't vie for any kind of special developer attention. Hell, even our corp is accepting open applications. You're welcome to stop by anytime you like to discuss or shoot the shit with us. That's about as open as it gets.

At the end of the day, this is a community for a video game. We're all here to have fun and socialize. There's no reason to act all exclusionary and hostile over something as harmless as that.

Adipem Nothi and Mr. Goo

Yeah the whole scan thing I'm still mulling over. Gears are grinding and I'm not completely set on any one thing, and balancing it all will take some time.

STILL working on the rest of what I see as a more current proposal. Playing with numbers, ideas and definition.

Thanks for the support all

And at the end of the day this thread is NOT a GD-moved-to-the-LR thread for peenstroking and bs'ing, this thread is for CPM input on Logistics and Support play. The playground and all things acceptable in it is found elsewhere

D- AND last but not least this. Since you guys (BShop scouts) have yet to propose anything that isn't a buff to yourselves this one-áI have trouble seeing any differently. If Logis have their full equipment carryload available at STD then basis is there to allow Scouts their full equipment carryload at STD too, the merit of which (scouts being 1 equip until PRO where they'll be 2) has been broached as a balancing idea elsewhere. I'm inclined to argue for removal of that second equipment slot from scouts altogether and its reassignment elsewhere (Mandos?) again, since you buncha potsies won't stfu in here and have made it clear that you no longer are playing in support capacities, and don't want to. *points to current scout overhaul proposal in the BS hop trying to cement scouts as undetectable under all conditions assassins*

More psuedo input.

This is true. I neglected to mention suit stats themselves because I don't think I'm qualified to comment on them. Logis in my experience have been squishy, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Their low eHP needs to be a balance factor when you're talking about the logi-heavy combo, but I don't think it needs to be as low as it is currently. They could probably use an increase to base eHP.

What do you think about the suggestion that logis get increased stamina and speed in place of HP? Or maybe alongside a minor HP buff.

Alright, I've gone ahead and hidden el operator's posts for now, since he doesn't seem interested in talking about logistics at all. Sorry for being melodramatic, I just want to actually talk about logis.

So I've actually played a fair bit of logi (mostly during the days of chromosome) and I've been playing them a lot more recently but I'm still pretty foggy on what the actual balance issues are currently. Since they aren't combat suits their effectiveness has to be evaluated completely differently from how you would most other suits. I want to try and figure out exactly the issues are but I don't have time to read through all 72 pages of this thread so, again, sorry if you've heard all of this before.

- A properly fitted logistics suit costs way more than a properly fitted combat suit
- Logistics suits curve out poorly from STD to PRO because of the number of equipment slots
- Logi bonuses are lackluster and too focused on individual equipment
- Most support equipment has been nerfed without compensation to the logi suits themselves
- Logistics is harder to get into than other roles because of the sheer SP investment required
- Nanite injectors are much less useful than they used to be

What am I missing? For perspective, the logi stuff I have access to and use is an ADV minlogi with proto repper, advanced nanohive, advanced drop uplinks, and advanced nanite injector.