Overheat is a flat NO I agree.
I like your idea with the capacitor, but I think it should be introduced as a variant at each level and see how it works in realtime vs what we envision. You know how things tend to get jumbled up when introduced. That way tweaks can be made until it is right. I would like to see it at about 225 reps per second at Proto. A little more than half of the sustained DPS of a basic assault rifle.

I understand your not wanting more diminishing returns in WP for repairing, Right now there is a hard cap set (I don't remember what it is ). I suggested the diminishing returns as an alternative to a hard cap so we still receive points for repairing the whole time. I have changed my suggestion of stopping at 0.

Examples numbers are negotiable.

1min 25 points
2min 20 points
3min 10 points
4min 5 points
5min or longer 1point.

The hard drop between 2 and 3 minutes is to encourage releasing the lock when not in direct combat. To reset the timer, lock on should be dropped for 5 (maybe longer) seconds, to force a release. This should stop the release and quickly re-lock to reset WP acquisition. Forcing you to stop repairing for an extended time if you want better WPs, not just keep going and resetting every time your target is hit or they kill someone.

I also believe that Guardian points should be dropped to 25 the same as an assist and should follow the same diminishing returns as the repair tool.

...You reduced scan accuracy and stamina,as well as stamina pool,for 10%on scan radius? Lol no

I actually prefer cross',i'll survive longer.

I don't know how to feel about that.
Happy that logistics are buffed?
Sad that the buffs are low?

I'll go with happy i spose' that stamina will come in useful.

Quick note about the "counter" to "scouts" in scanning-

1. More than 1 scout frame is able, while properly modded, to defeat scans entirely. That is to say, able to beat all scanners all the time outright.

2. More than one scout frame is enabled when scanned to know that they've been scanned via a nice fat warning message on their screen that says, " You have been SCANNED". SO, when they've been scanned they can change what or how they're doing what they're doing before failing or being killed.

3. This terribly OP uberscanner that wreaks devastation across all games and modes and eviscerated a whole genre of gameplay here has the shortest lightup time (10-15 seconds) the narrowest arc (~45-¦) and the shortest range (100m). (not in front of a stat spreadsheet so figures may be a little off, but those are the gist of them) Even fully loaded with 4 of these things the top suit (GalLogi) for using them is still only able to scan those narrow arcs for those short periods. AND SCOUTS CAN STILL BEAT IT.

4. STEALTH, like any other weapon we have in here is open to everyone, ANY suit can be used to lurk n beast. Scout frames, by design are the most powerful in this regard. And among the scout class certain frames are better than others in more conditions for it. Kind of like our Uplinks, anyone w/eq can carry them, anyone w/eq can pitch them BUT if you want the fastest possible links out then you'll need to use the AmarrLogi. A slow, cumbersome logi not particularly well-suited out of the box for link running, btw.
ALL scouts are more than stealthy as hell vs. all other frames. AND they can mod the fit so that they outright defeat their counter, the "OP" Proto GalLogi Proto Active Scans.

The GalLogi bonusing, Cocentric Falloff AND Cloak stats ALL cumulatively create a SUM total of something resembling balance between Scout frames and all others. Scouts refused to tolerate other outright stat nerfs that were proposed to balance their OP bs, suggestions like going single equipment, going sidearm only, being made slightly slower, having outright fitting restrictions on hp mods etc. So, instead, the suite of tweaks that occurred were created and applied, scout OPness came down a notch and overall balance became better. NOW the effort to try and rollback the balancing is afoot and trying to interject itself here because we're on deck for buffs so a patch or fix will happen that could be an opportunity for scouts to regain their utterly dominant position among frames overall.

**** THAT ****, I say.




BTW, had a DOM match vs Mr.GoBang there last Monday. I spent the whole match scanning him, his club and his team. He ultimately sg'd me twice (from his Cal std bpo), went 10-3 on the leaderboard and his team won the match. Thos uber OP GalLogi scans didn't kill him, didn't unhack anything, didn't freeze him in place or make him totally defenseless (he still had his speed, his tank, his gank and his wit) and didn't drop an OB on him.
In PC we see scouts, full pro no halfassing it scouts, all the time. They are game changers and playmakers (as they should be) AND they defeat scanners ALL the time, hiding on catwalks raining re's, spamming their own scanners , dropping links, running-and-gunning, ripping off speed hacks left and right etc so this crap about scans being too OP is exactly that: crap.

If ain't broke, don't fix it.
Mind the dates on posts and their relative timing to subsequent fixes and patches.
Just because this thread has required us keeping it alive does not warrant it becoming the scoutbuffideaspitballing room.
The buffs that Logis are due can be done without undoing the general balance we currently have, provided we don't allow the interjection of the unneccessary. Current overall balance being largely agreed upon as good as has been seen in a loooong time. We get our buffs and truthfully, IMO, CCP will be able to focus less on this constant frame-balancing situation and more on generating new content . New vehicles, new weapons, new maps, new modes, new frames etc etc etc The dog and pony show has to stop somewhere.

Select Category:Dropsuits

Commandos are the weakest class in the game. If Logis are underpowered and underutilized, so are Scouts and Heavies.

Hilarious.
I like how your chart somehow shows that commandos are the weakest class in the game, but magically avoids showing that scouts are still OP, or at the very least still much stronger than logis. But yeah, keep arguing for nerfing scans so assaults can avoid being scanned too. As your chart shows, assaults and scouts need all thelp they can get. /Sarcasm.

Again, arguments that poor are an insult to your audience's intelligence. You're bringing me around though: I'm starting to think that nerfing scouts again might be more important than buffing logis. Look at how high they are on your chart! Lol.

That isn't my chart.

Dust.thang.dk is a 3rd party, SDE-driven website kinda like protofits. I believe it has been unmanned (i.e. on autopilot) since FF2014. The historical data you see there is as legit as it gets. Here's their Community Spotlight: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2014/01/community-spotlight/

This historical data section (above) updates every few days; I believe this section polls data daily:
http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php

To be fair, those charts simply show units sold right? Amount sold does not necessarily mean that the suit itself is good or bad, its a measure of popularity ...

Yes, all we can see here are unit sales and how they've changed over time.

You can almost date Uprising 1.10 looking only at the timeline alone. We can see how Logi usage rates improved slightly (presumably due to Bandwidth) and how Scout usage tanked as Falloff proved sufficiently potent to convince the slayers to drop the Scout suit in favor of Assault. Farewell and good riddance, Assault Lite. o/

Usage rates don't show us everything or prove anything, but they do tell us a part of the story.

... I just really hope the Logis get some serious love really soon. They keep getting passed over in favor of Roll Rifle Rebalance, again, and other things of the sort. They keep getting passed over in favor of Rifle Rebalance, again, and other things of the sort.

That isn't my chart.

Logis DEFINATELY DON'T need to get their survivability buffed.

Good Logis are already always on top of the killboard with low deathcounts because of the massive amounts of WPs we can farm without taking too many risks. If you do your job right, you won't have many issues surviving as a Logi. Logis are the weakest combat suits but not entirely defenseless, and it should remain like that.

- Another thing we might consider is switching Assault movement speed with Logi movement speed. This would make sense becasue of two reasons: 1. A suit that has less HP should probably be quicker than its counter part with more HP. 2. The job of the Logi involves running around a lot, so this would be a nice buff for Logis to become better at their job.

Overheat is a flat NO I agree.
I like your idea with the capacitor, but I think it should be introduced as a variant at each level and see how it works in realtime vs what we envision. You know how things tend to get jumbled up when introduced. That way tweaks can be made until it is right. I would like to see it at about 225 reps per second at Proto. A little more than half of the sustained DPS of a basic assault rifle.

I understand your not wanting more diminishing returns in WP for repairing, Right now there is a hard cap set (I don't remember what it is ). I suggested the diminishing returns as an alternative to a hard cap so we still receive points for repairing the whole time. I have changed my suggestion of stopping at 0.

Examples numbers are negotiable.

1min 25 points
2min 20 points
3min 10 points
4min 5 points
5min or longer 1point.

The hard drop between 2 and 3 minutes is to encourage releasing the lock when not in direct combat. To reset the timer, lock on should be dropped for 5 (maybe longer) seconds, to force a release. This should stop the release and quickly re-lock to reset WP acquisition. Forcing you to stop repairing for an extended time if you want better WPs, not just keep going and resetting every time your target is hit or they kill someone.

I also believe that Guardian points should be dropped to 25 the same as an assist and should follow the same diminishing returns as the repair tool.

yes, Thank you for your help. It was the Haerr page I was looking for.
Proto fits is great for current values, but testing values I needed to find the formulas again, thank you.

And This thread is about balancing logis, and balance applies to the entirety of the game and how this role affects all else in the game. While I get that some feel this conversation is derailing the thread I cant fully agree and point to the lack of other activity. Few were taking action, posting, providing numbers, and working on something - even if it is disagreed upon - creating a presentation or summation of works or opinions.

This conversation about the GAL LOGI vs scout sparked a conversation. It was this conversation that helped me start work on defining the logi again and reworking some proposal numbers - THAT HAVE STOOD STAGNANT FOR MONTHS from the original post, even after several updates. I may or may not agree with many of the opinions here, but without opposition or discussion there can be no growth, nothing more to give CCP or the CPM.


I have tried to bring the discussion into focus several times and received little to no feedback except from the "Scout guy" - who has actually looked at some of my work, Helped with numbers, and provided Feedback.


el OPERATOR was it not you that wanted the Logi to be better at EWAR? I'm working on it, Gal Logi applies, how it affects scouts applies. If it wasn't you, perhaps Meee One. Eitherway, I'm getting values, working with someone to see how that would play out in game.

But maybe this should go to another Thread as has been suggested.


I understand your concerns and how you have felt about this discussion and I can agree that sometimes certain posts have been more scout centric. I feel that this discussion applies to our logi balance, and I will continue to work on the numbers until I have some numbers that can better reflect the desires of the logi community and be realistic enough to garner approval from the DEVs rather than having it dismissed because it was too OP or did not take into account other game factors. I do this for the team. I would appreciate your help.

The community has my apologies.

Hurr durr, I'm a scout so no idea why I'm in here but notice me! I think Logis are fine as they are.

[Hurr durr, I'm a scout but have no idea why I'm in here except to say Notice me! and...]

...I don't play logi too much...

Is English your first language?

The possessive "your" doesn't only mean creation or ownership of something. The easiest example of this is "your country." In this context "your evidence" in support of your point, doesn't need to be created or owned by you.

"Your chart" the one YOU are citing as an authority to indicate that commandos are the weakest suit instead of logis, undermines every other argument you've made in this thread to avoid the idea that scouts are still OP compared to logis.

Its not true that logis are underpowered because of your chart. As Pokey's pointed out, its a very weak authority for making any conclusions about suit strength. But for you to cite it anyway, while it contradicts your other assertions about the relative strengths of logis and scouts, suggests that you really aren't here to argue in good faith.

You're making a sham argument. Instead of conceding when you're caught making terrible arguments, you change the subject, or make another different sham argument. That kind of "shotgun" (not a pun about shotgun scouts; but a broader description of a rhetorical tactics that avoids a single best argument, like a rifle bullet, in favor of many tiny bad arguments, like shot gun pellets) approach to a discussion invites people to have a low regard for your thoughts and opinions.

You can not be taken seriously until you concede what is obvious to anyone who isn't a scout/assault zealot: Logis are the weakest suit in the game. Gal Logi scans are not OP just because assaults can't beat them and scouts actually need to fit appropriately to beat them; that is balanced, not OP. And finally, when you make a bad argument, you need to be able to concede its weakness, or withdraw it entirely. Its that last failure that makes you look more and more trollish over time.

He isn't in here in good faith, he's in here campaigning to have his propaganda accepted. If we buy it in here he can point to it from other area of conversation as tacit support for his cause. That cause being scouts as the most powerful of frames under the most diverse of conditions. Scouts as they were, scouts as scout zealots such as he feel they deserve to be.

We could (theoretically) take a gamble and recast the Logi as support + recon by buffing its passive scan strengths. When was the last time a Scout "scouted" anyway? The Logi already has the best scan range; this range could be augmented with the best scan precision. In terms of gameplay, the Logi at the heart of a blob could provide his blob with omniscience via shared passives and even greater resistance to flank/surprise attack. This design would undoubtedly cause balance problems, but if "blob warfare" is a desirable model and/or deemed necessary , we could work around the balance issues by tweakingoverhauling and renaming Scouts.

Oh dear, I'm sorry I stumbled on your private thread and started ruining your discussion by talking about balance. I suppose it would be best to never interact with the logistics community then, as you are clearly the only one capable of understanding the deep, intricate balance problems at the heart of Dust. I guess the idea that logistics should be buffed is a terrible one when it's coming from somebody who doesn't play logi 24/7.

Balance is not a one way road. It's not some thread where you try to whisper into the ears of the CPM and shun anybody who isn't part of your sekret klub. It affects everyone, so I suggest you get used to the idea of criticizing an argument based on its merits, instead of shooting it down because you don't like who's saying it.

I appreciate that lots of logis would prefer the speed, I also see the merit in making logis the second slowest and tankiest suits, right behind heavies.

What about covering that range of speed/tank balance within the logi class? In other words, making the Amarr logi almost as slow and tanky as a heavy, and making the Minmatar logi almost as fast and lightly tanked as a scout?

In other words on the continuum of Tankiness and slowness:
Scouts -Min Logi - Cal Logi - Gal logi - Amar Logi - Heavies

with assaults somewhere in the middle? The flexibility of a plated and shield extended Amar logi approaching the eHP of a heavy and a kincat Min logi approaching the speed of a scout is appealing to me. I'm also fine with that kincat Min Logi being paper thin, and that Amar logi being as brutally slow as a heavy.

I've love to be able to keep up with a scout squad, or survive with a point defense Heavy squad, instead of being stuck in the middle or at either end of that continuum. I'd love to use that kincat min logi as my initial uplink deployer instead of a scout suit. I'd love to switch to that Amar logi, if I know I'm being deployed (and transported to the point) with a heavy.

>The barber shop.

Hypocrite.

What of it? The Barbershop has a couple crazies like any sub-community, but it also has an excellent track record for generating and vetting solid, well-balanced ideas. Those who think the thread is about "Scout Superiority" aren't paying close enough attention; the majority of Scout nerfs implemented between 1.8 and present originated in the Barbershop.