@ Gyn Wallace



If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now?

They weren't. Now, post long-overdue tweaking of Scouts' base stats, they're better.

Crazy tidbit, since we're on the subject:

Scans are the counter to stealth.
They operate intermittently, for short periods.
At even their most powerful capability they are still defeated by stealth, since damps win ties and fits are possible which will tie or outright beat the scanner.
Scans, as a counter, are countered by what they are intended to counter. wtf is OP here again?

Active Scanners are not the counter to Scouts and Dampeners; Scouts and Dampeners are the counter to Active Scanners.

PS: If precision and profile are tied, precision wins (just in case you weren't aware).

Yes, assuming both units are "doing it right", it is far harder to overrun a blob and kill the Logi at its nucleus than it is to spot and kill a Scout.

Then GalLogi scans aren't OP (since they're counterable by their counter) and your entire premise in here on that subject is void.
!

Please note that I am not weighing risk in terms of Isk.

@Adipem Nothi

From your last few posts and referencing dampening. I do have a question or two for you if you wouldn't mind.

Can all scouts beat the proto Gal proto scanner?
or is it only the racial bonuses that help X races.
That is to say, a proto scout with their slots full of proto dampeners, and a proto cloak. Will each beat the scan... was it an 18 or a 21 (sorry at work and just posting real quick)

Please, tell me what you think.

RedBleach's Logi Proposal

Yes, they can.

More is required of the MinScout, as it must run a proto suit, fill all of its lows with complex damps, and be proto cloaked to beat all scans. This requirement was argued as "reasonable" before cloak-blind, decloak-delay, falloff, and scout armor/strafe penalty were introduced.

If it was a "reasonable" requirement then, it certainly is not now.

I believe it appropriate to lessen pressure on today's post-nerf, post-falloff MinScouts by 1 slot. If adjustments to GalLogi scans are off-the-table, this goal could be reached through alternative means. For instance, changing cloak's active damp bonus from 0-5-10 to 10-15-25 would accomplish the same; specifically, MN/AM Scouts would then beat 15dB scans at 2 cmp damps + proto cloak (instead of 3 cmp damps + proto cloak) and GA/CA Scouts at 2 cmp damps + basic cloak (instead of 2 cmp damps + proto cloak).

That said, adjustments to GalLogi active scans may prove in the end to be the better path. GalLogi scans aren't just "OP" against MinScouts; these scans also negate any/all value of running damps on any suit other the Scout. Thankfully, balance calls aren't mine to make.

Logi base scan range was increased to 25m when Falloff was introduced. This is the highest of all classes. Your proposal appears to reflect old values.

You also propose changing Precision from 45 dB to 35 dB; this would playout as follows:

Scan Precision (5) - 16 / 32 / 41 dB
Cmp Precision (x1) - 13 / 25 / 33 dB
Cmp Precision (x2) - 10 / 21 / 27 dB
Cmp Precision (x3) - 9 / 18 / 24 dB

Ranges: 8m / 19m / 38m

---

"Role bleed" comes to mind (among other things). But that's a conversation for another day.

I NEED TO FIND AS SCANNING RESOURCE - I don't want to just dump number hunting onto you, I'd rather have some of my own answers. - I remember looking at one. I'll have to find it.

Here are two:

Borrowed from Barbershop
Borrowed from Haerr

To the best of my knowledge, Protofit's EWAR values are also up-to-date.

So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout.

Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support.

If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs.

In your opinion when should active scans or dampeners win?
Step by step, tier by tier, I think that a fully Damped Scout should beat the equal level of Scanner so a full dam[ proto scout beats proto scanner. But the counter is the Gal Logi that can scan everything. Meaning that the specialty of the Gal Logi scanning all is the draw of the suit, nothing escapes its eyes. So that a proto cloak is required to beat the Gal logi.


I am biased because of my logi core, but I see the counter.

Agreed.
An overheat that seizes the repair or more diminished returns with WP are not the answer. It is a barrier to new logis that creates a steep learning curve and will also lead to cursed frustration whenever that limit is reached in battle. Especially in a situation where those reps would have allowed your team to hold a point, survive, or turned the tide of battle.

Overheat no.

A warm up capacitor to reward actual repping - meaning that when it is repairing it is increasing in efficiency and when it is tethered but not repping it begins to cool down - is a method that rewards active repping with a direct battle effect. This affects repping behavior and has a greater possibility to lead to the desired behavior of smart repping rather than "leashing" an entire match.

That said - you can't force anyone to play the way you want them to. All we can do is provide tools and allow players to use them however they see fit. You will have that guy that is dedicated to pistols, RE's, LZR, or other situational/unique items and we cant change that. All that can be done is to give fair rules of play for all.

An overheat is punishing to a class that draws players for the reason that they don't want to/or have to shoot, or they are just not good at it. But being able to leash another player, help out, and provide other support may fill that need of fun, purpose, or entertainment that we all seek by playing games, and that's perfect for people like me.


I believe that the majority of users would find the overheat a bane to the class and alienate players even further. While it is unique, and may offer a minority of users a new thrill for a while the permanency of such a change, and how that might affect future changes in the mechanics of other items is not something that can be supported.

Capacitors or warm up mechanics maybe. Seizing/stopping/arresting/halting/etc.... just no.

Here is a merc (Redbleach) who wants to better understand EWAR and EWAR balance from the perspective of the EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found pertinent knowledge?

"No knowledge is to be despised."
- Joseph Needham

If it was a "reasonable" requirement then, it certainly is not now.

I believe it appropriate to lessen pressure on today's post-nerf, post-falloff MinScouts by 1 slot. ...

That said, adjustments to GalLogi active scans may prove in the end to be the better path. GalLogi scans aren't just "OP" against MinScouts; these scans also negate any/all value of running damps on any suit other the Scout. Thankfully, balance calls aren't mine to make.

Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered

So I see you have continued to successfully derail our thread, QQing about the imbalance of the scout.

Please for the love of god ignore this poor scout so we can continue on with the logistics and support.

If he wants to discuss this he can START HIS OWN THREAD IN F&B, or better yet go to the barbershop where he belongs.

Again start your own thread and put all this knowledge you speak of there. This way not only RedBleach can learn but so can everyone else, or are you afraid of what the rest of the community will say to you?

I will grant that the information is interesting and a good read but it is derailing this thread. I will even give you a title for your new thread. " Gal Logistics bonus VS Scout in ewar and how to properly balance it." Then everyone in the community will have the opportunity to give and receive information, not just the individuals interested in this thread.

I am not against discussing this topic intelligently but lets make a thread specifically for it.
It does not effect 3/4 of the logistics team because only the Gal Logi has the bonus. So your discussion needs to be moved from an overall discussion to a more specific discussion in its own thread.

Than as RedBleach Gains more knowledge about the subject he can change his proposals and have a specific thread to reference when he needs specific answers.

Adjusted the original google docs to reflect some of my feelings for a more survivable logi, I backed off on the better shield recharge (that seemed more like an Assault thing) to add better hacking and better ewar. Adjusted bonues, increased strafe speed, etc.

Set up new slot layouts and tier progression. Left the whole sidearm thing to CCP to deal with, but provided options.

The ewar precision and range is random numbers, i did not check what the values would be if maxed out (sorry). But it is still something, numbers that CCP wants provided (as they say - players doing the legwork). Can always go higher on the range... but will have to number test it so it doesn't become a Cal Scout issue of seeing the entire battlefield again.

Please, tell me what you think.

RedBleach's Logi Proposal

Its nice to see that you're in a thread about buffing the weakest class in the game, arguing for buffing scouts that aren't under-powered, nerfing scans that aren't OP, AND buffing assaults... because assaults really need a buff right now...

So its really just the heavies that the scanner is supposed to pick up.. oh and other logis?

/Sarcasm.

Scans were not balanced when scouts were ridiculously OP. Scans lost then, scans still lose now. But you want scans to lose against assaults too?

I'm coming around to the opinion that you're really here to troll. The more I think about that survivability discussion, the more absurd your suggestion that scouts are higher risk or less survivable. Entire behaviors have arisen to protect expensive, vulnerable logis, while routine behaviors have similarly arisen around taking insane risks with the very robust scouts (despite their low HP). But instead of acknowledging that its the behaviors rather than anything inherent in the suits that has scouts and logis dying at any kind of similar frequency, you argued that "risk" isn't about isk loss.

You're obviously not stupid, Adipem, but its becoming increasingly difficult for me to engage with you as though you're arguing in good faith. That you can't acknowledge that aggressive scout behavior rather than their suits (except to the extent that the low cost of the suit incourages that behavior) is what makes them die as much as logis, is a giant road block to taking anything you write seriously. Logis simply do not have an effective play style that reduces their risk of net isk loss for a match as low as what scouts have available to them, even if the scouts is a soloist and the logi has a squad.

Even moderately skilled scouts, who decide to hunt me down, can almost guarantee that I'll go negative isk for a match, while they risk so little isk they can still easily go isk positive. There is no similar vulnerability for scouts. Scouts (right behind vehicle pilots) are among the lowest risk suits, unless your playstyle is insanely aggressive. The scout suit isn't particularly vulnerable; the playstyle some scouts prefer is.

I've ranted about this enough, so I'll close with one final point: The biggest coward in the game, Duna, jumps out of his tank when its about to blow, and runs back to his redline to call in another tank. He works hard to keep his deaths as low as possible. What suit does he prefer? Not an assault, not a heavy, not a commando, and certainly not a logi. He runs a scout, because ITS the most survivable and lowest risk suit in the game. He jumps out, cloaks and runs away. And routinely gets away.

That's not a vulnerable "high risk" suit. Its absurd, and frankly a little insulting to everyone's intelligence for you to suggest otherwise, just because some of the most aggressive players prefer using scout suits because they're so cheap while still being very lethal.

Here is a merc (RedBleach) who wants to better understand EWAR, EWAR balance, and perspectives of EWAR units opposite his role. As his proposal includes significant EWAR changes, does it not stand to reason that he might benefit from new found knowledge?

"No knowledge is to be despised."
- Joseph Needham