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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 178 post(s) |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4082
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:49:00 -
[17221] - Quote
I see you left out reactives and ferros.
Who's to say we can't give mediums a bonus to the penalty?
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15341
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:50:00 -
[17222] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Entertain me, and elaborate. I know it was a bombshell, but we have been discussing this for months internally, how speed penalties are not working to diffuse the brick tanking situation. EVE has/had sig penalties on modules.
Signature penalties are far more insignificant in EVE than they are in DUST.
Scanning in DUST is commonplace and the scan advantage is of critical importance to a fight.
Scanning in EVE is rarer and has little bearing on direct engagements.
If we're going to look at EVE so much, note that in EVE people tank ships a lot as well. Everyone tanks. It's a necessity. The game is built around ISK which incentivises survival. So people want to survive more. You need to tank, otherwise you get killed nigh-on instantly by high powered weapons such as HMGs and shotguns and you lose your ISK.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Bayeth Mal
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
710
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:51:00 -
[17223] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Who's to say we can't give mediums a bonus to the penalty?
Isn't that what I just said? 
Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others
Hit me up for Skype and PSN
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
10866
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:51:00 -
[17224] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Entertain me, and elaborate. I know it was a bombshell, but we have been discussing this for months internally, how speed penalties are not working to diffuse the brick tanking situation. EVE has/had sig penalties on modules.
*Calms down*
*Enters constructive argument mode*
Look, for fighting brick tanking in scouts, it's ideal, especially if both shield extenders and plates get it.
This will massively discourage having too much HP on scouts.
However, where it falls apart is anything above it.
In DUST, scanning/dampening is black and white, either you see, or you don't.
In EVE it's more like hacking, having lower "profile" makes the hack take longer, and vice versa, and it really only affects lock on time.
You can also be scanned down, but that's a different story, and it doesn't affect combat effectiveness to any major degree, while in DUST scanning is key.
Your attempt to make sentinels stop bricking will also do nothing, as Sentinels can be seen by everything already.
4 plates will be the same as 0 plates for them.
So basically, you're only hurting medium frames and scouts, and while scouts don't really need to put on HP, medium frames do, they need quite a lot of HP modules to be competitive in the current DUST enviroment.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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hfderrtgvcd
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
115
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:51:00 -
[17225] - Quote
To discourage brick tanking, change plates and extenders so that the bonuses they give are percentages instead of flat values. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
10866
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:53:00 -
[17226] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:To discourage brick tanking, change plates and extenders so that the bonuses they give are percentages instead of flat values.
And then that makes heavies extremely powerful while keeping medium frames in the DUST.
GG
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Bayeth Mal
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
710
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:54:00 -
[17227] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:To discourage brick tanking, change plates and extenders so that the bonuses they give are percentages instead of flat values.
That would be an unreasonable buff to Sentinels, and a nerf to everyone else.
Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others
Hit me up for Skype and PSN
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15341
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:55:00 -
[17228] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I see you left out reactives and ferros.
Who's to say we can't give mediums a bonus to the penalty?
Also not taking into account the ehp buff assault is getting in charlie.
Do you have vague numbers on the HP buff assaults are getting?
If ferros/reactives didn't have the profile penalty it might encourage their use but you're getting exactly the same thing straight away - people end up doing nothing but tanking.
The suggestion of giving mediums a bonus reminds me of another suggestion that's floated around the Barbershop for a while - the idea of having scout bonuses apply to the modules rather than to the suit.
For instance, on the Galscout - instead of having a 3% bonus to profile dampening per level, you have a X% bonus to the efficacy of profile dampeners per level.
If you eschew dampeners in favour of brick tanking your scout, you don't get the bonus and lose out on the advantages it would have offered you.
EDIT: It's incredibly liberating to actually be engaging a dev in conversation over the forums. Thank you.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4087
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:55:00 -
[17229] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:To discourage brick tanking, change plates and extenders so that the bonuses they give are percentages instead of flat values.
This is never happening.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
1352
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:55:00 -
[17230] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The cloak is there for reference at the bottom.
We can also reduce the dampening bonus of the cloak to zero.
From a "I want all scouts to be unscannable in some way even by sacrificing all slots and cloak" point of view, I think we need to have that discussion. I think we can tune these numbers to an acceptable resolution.
It also removes the waves of opportunity discussion, such as Minja activating cloak to bypass the resident precision scanner at objective.
The balance needs to lie in that equal number of mods need to be fit to counter. One can fit one less if they are using a cloak on GAL.
So 1:1 ratio plus cloak gets you under scan. For GAL its n-1.
So a 4cPE wont see a 4cPE w/cloak.
I think the problem in lies that the Caldari has 4 precision slots. Having the amarr only be able to fit 2 precision mods might allow you to keep the 1:1 ratio, but that means the GAL then has a "can eat cake too" sort of bonus with so many low slots.
I honestly don't know how you can make it "elegant" without an entire rework or modifying the base stats. Removing shared passive scans will allow a great relief on the pressure of scouts as then only a single person is hunting them and not an entire squad.
My Youtube
Biomassed Podcast
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4087
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:57:00 -
[17231] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I see you left out reactives and ferros.
Who's to say we can't give mediums a bonus to the penalty?
Also not taking into account the ehp buff assault is getting in charlie. Do you have vague numbers on the HP buff assaults are getting? If ferros/reactives didn't have the profile penalty it might encourage their use but you're getting exactly the same thing straight away - people end up doing nothing but tanking. The suggestion of giving mediums a bonus reminds me of another suggestion that's floated around the Barbershop for a while - the idea of having scout bonuses apply to the modules rather than to the suit. For instance, on the Galscout - instead of having a 3% bonus to profile dampening per level, you have a X% bonus to the efficacy of profile dampeners per level. If you eschew dampeners in favour of brick tanking your scout, you don't get the bonus and lose out on the advantages it would have offered you.
There is another way, fitting penalty on normal plates on scouts, surely shoehorning, but doesn't have a long reaching effect on the rest of the meta.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
166
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:57:00 -
[17232] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Is it not then fallacy to establish max passive scans to be below active and instead at equal or above? I know that brings back the GA logi, but why not?
I would agree with this. Passive scanning is superior to active scanning, however it requires more slot investment. I don't think there would be anything wrong with establishing max passive scans at higher profiles than max active scans.
I whole heartily agree with bringing back Gal logis (in moderate amounts, not 1.4-1.7 levels), they should have a place, as should every suit. |
Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
6135
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:57:00 -
[17233] - Quote
Just throwing this out there but an Amarr scout with the numbers as is can tank 600+ EHP scan at 17.8db at 43.5m equip a proto rep hive, and a proto uplink on top of a proto CR and a proto SMG.
With that fit you force a Minmatar to use all of his lows for damps plus a cloak giving him literally half the HP of that Amarr scout.
Doesn't anyone have any issues with this?
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
10866
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:58:00 -
[17234] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I see you left out reactives and ferros.
Who's to say we can't give mediums a bonus to the penalty?
Also not taking into account the ehp buff assault is getting in charlie.
What about extenders?
You said that after plates you want to look at extenders, but there is no such alternative.
It would need to be a massive bonus of epic proportions.
eHP buff doesn't matter, the HP gap between scouts and assaults needs to increase, assaults have more slots, and combined with increased HP would allow for the gap to be wide enough.
Doing what you're doing will close the gap after you widen it.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
424
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:58:00 -
[17235] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:On the Amarr scout: I think that precision will be very, very strong on this because there's pretty much nothing else you'd put in the highslots other than precision amps. Essentially that means that every Amarr scout will be scanning with a baseline of 20dB, which is very strong considering you can do that whilst having a strong tank. A profile penalty won't dissuade that kind of tanking either, because it's likely that a lot of Amarr scouts will decide to toss aside stealth and just use it as a combat suit with a powerful scanner. very slow, short range, scanner at 20dB which can be evaded by all scouts at some effort, not maximum, and seen by everyone, esp CA scouts that then can engage before the Amarr sees him. Doesn't seem to break anything.
why are scouts the only one with usable sensors? if you go ahead with your idea of giving plates a penalty to scan profile, why not do iy for extenders as well?
and then why cant mediums have a viable scan range? at least then they could see tanked out units. seems fair and itd finally give people a chance to defend or run from heavies backed by logis, instead of turning a corner and getting mowed down like we do now |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
10867
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:59:00 -
[17236] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I see you left out reactives and ferros.
Who's to say we can't give mediums a bonus to the penalty?
Also not taking into account the ehp buff assault is getting in charlie. Do you have vague numbers on the HP buff assaults are getting? If ferros/reactives didn't have the profile penalty it might encourage their use but you're getting exactly the same thing straight away - people end up doing nothing but tanking. The suggestion of giving mediums a bonus reminds me of another suggestion that's floated around the Barbershop for a while - the idea of having scout bonuses apply to the modules rather than to the suit. For instance, on the Galscout - instead of having a 3% bonus to profile dampening per level, you have a X% bonus to the efficacy of profile dampeners per level. If you eschew dampeners in favour of brick tanking your scout, you don't get the bonus and lose out on the advantages it would have offered you. There is another way, fitting penalty on normal plates on scouts, surely shoehorning, but doesn't have a long reaching effect on the rest of the meta.
That's probably a better option.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
4090
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Posted - 2014.07.12 22:59:00 -
[17237] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I see you left out reactives and ferros.
Who's to say we can't give mediums a bonus to the penalty?
Also not taking into account the ehp buff assault is getting in charlie. Do you have vague numbers on the HP buff assaults are getting? If ferros/reactives didn't have the profile penalty it might encourage their use but you're getting exactly the same thing straight away - people end up doing nothing but tanking. The suggestion of giving mediums a bonus reminds me of another suggestion that's floated around the Barbershop for a while - the idea of having scout bonuses apply to the modules rather than to the suit. For instance, on the Galscout - instead of having a 3% bonus to profile dampening per level, you have a X% bonus to the efficacy of profile dampeners per level. If you eschew dampeners in favour of brick tanking your scout, you don't get the bonus and lose out on the advantages it would have offered you. EDIT: It's incredibly liberating to actually be engaging a dev in conversation over the forums. Thank you.
Somewhere between Commandos and Logis. Efficacies come later, and need to be translated properly to give similar results. That doesn't stop us in establishing the EWAR groundrules we are discussing right now.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15907
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:01:00 -
[17238] - Quote
I just wished scanning had falloffs >< would make the world such a more massively better place.
Sigh...
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Minmatar Sentinel =// Unlocked
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1298
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:01:00 -
[17239] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The cloak is there for reference at the bottom.
We can also reduce the dampening bonus of the cloak to zero.
From a "I want all scouts to be unscannable in some way even by sacrificing all slots and cloak" point of view, I think we need to have that discussion. I think we can tune these numbers to an acceptable resolution.
It also removes the waves of opportunity discussion, such as Minja activating cloak to bypass the resident precision scanner at objective.
What do you think of making that a ninja thing (the active dampening that is)?
Perhaps if we removed the cloaks dampening and made it minmitar only?
However, the cloak right now is useless outside of reducing scan profile in a competitive environment, or against a team that can see you, as the invisibility really isn't all that great.
Also, If it were possible, i think doubling the speed penalty on plates for scout suits is better than making plates have a profile nerf, as that will be even more severe IMHO. The real reason people brick a scout is because they want a faster assault suit with better scans. IF they are bricking, they don't really care about profile, they just want their speed, smaller hit box, and better scans
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
10867
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:02:00 -
[17240] - Quote
To further discourage bricking, how about increasing medium frame scan range to 15m?
This puts it at max skills at 21m.
If a scout decides to brick, assaults and logis will be able to see it.
The current 15m at max range isn't enough, as by the time you react, you already have a buckshot in your face.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Bayeth Mal
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
710
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:02:00 -
[17241] - Quote
I notice precision was taken off Caldari on the doc. Fair enough but reducing range to 45 is too short if the Amarr can get 30 with the precision. At present without any precision mods it can scan any other un-dampened suit including Gal.
Brief thought. Min and Cal get a dampening bonus, say, 2% per level. Gal gets 4%. How would those numbers add up?
The Amarr is trading profile for precision (how I've always expected it to be).
Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others
Hit me up for Skype and PSN
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
2154
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:03:00 -
[17242] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I just wished scanning had falloffs >< would make the world such a more massively better place.
Sigh...
Aye, that'd be a blessing.
Client side update though.
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
10867
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:04:00 -
[17243] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I just wished scanning had falloffs >< would make the world such a more massively better place.
Sigh...
*Imagines the possibilities, then sighs*
Legion...
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Bayeth Mal
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
710
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:05:00 -
[17244] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Just throwing this out there but an Amarr scout with the numbers as is can tank 600+ EHP scan at 17.8db at 43.5m equip a proto rep hive, and a proto uplink on top of a proto CR and a proto SMG.
With that fit you force a Minmatar to use all of his lows for damps plus a cloak giving him literally half the HP of that Amarr scout.
Doesn't anyone have any issues with this? At least with the Caldari bonus now that caldari has to have almost HALF that EHP to attain those numbers.
I have issues with it but bear in mind they're numbers being worked on and changed as we speak. So other stats may not be altered to compensate. He's asking for quantative suggestions.
Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others
Hit me up for Skype and PSN
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
424
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:05:00 -
[17245] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:To further discourage bricking, how about increasing medium frame scan range to 15m?
This puts it at max skills at 21m.
If a scout decides to brick, assaults and logis will be able to see it.
The current 15m at max range isn't enough, as by the time you react, you already have a buckshot in your face.
scans used to be much higher, then they got nerfed. now we cant even spot heavies at reasonable distance |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15907
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:07:00 -
[17246] - Quote
Spademan wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I just wished scanning had falloffs >< would make the world such a more massively better place.
Sigh... Aye, that'd be a blessing. Client side update though.
I don't know the specifics behind this; I do know it would be massive rework to everything.
Also another tool to throw into the box Sensor Upgrades :D
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Minmatar Sentinel =// Unlocked
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
10867
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:07:00 -
[17247] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cat Merc wrote:To further discourage bricking, how about increasing medium frame scan range to 15m?
This puts it at max skills at 21m.
If a scout decides to brick, assaults and logis will be able to see it.
The current 15m at max range isn't enough, as by the time you react, you already have a buckshot in your face. scans used to be much higher, then they got nerfed. now we cant even spot heavies at reasonable distance
And that's why we need falloff.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Appia Vibbia
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3297
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:08:00 -
[17248] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cat Merc wrote:To further discourage bricking, how about increasing medium frame scan range to 15m?
This puts it at max skills at 21m.
If a scout decides to brick, assaults and logis will be able to see it.
The current 15m at max range isn't enough, as by the time you react, you already have a buckshot in your face. scans used to be much higher, then they got nerfed. now we cant even spot heavies at reasonable distance
20m for Assault, Logistics, and Heavy. 25m for Scouts. *sight* the good old days
*DISCLAIMER* The "good old days" were rife with problems that caused massive errors with the passive scan system. far too often could a heavy jump out from behind a corner without your notice
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Empress of Alts
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1298
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:08:00 -
[17249] - Quote
If we had falloff, the NK or SG scout would still be completely boned....unless the scans worked in pulses so that if they were fast enough they could get in, make the kill, and get out before spotted
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
2489
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Posted - 2014.07.12 23:15:00 -
[17250] - Quote
Ugh with the rif raf.
Also, no way I can try and make any suggestions while at work. Stupid customers...
This is how a minja feels
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