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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
hfderrtgvcd Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:18:00 - [17191] - Quote How about this: Caldari Scout: 5% bonus to scan range pre level, 3% scan precision per level Amarr Scout: 3% bonus to scan range per level, 5% scan precision per level Gallente Scout: 3% bonus to profile per level, 3% bonus to scan range per level Minmatar stays as is

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4072	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:19:00 - [17192] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: On the Amarr scout: I think that precision will be very, very strong on this because there's pretty much nothing else you'd put in the highslots other than precision amps. Essentially that means that every Amarr scout will be scanning with a baseline of 20dB, which is very strong considering you can do that whilst having a strong tank. A profile penalty won't dissuade that kind of tanking either, because it's likely that a lot of Amarr scouts will decide to toss aside stealth and just use it as a combat suit with a powerful scanner. very slow, short range, scanner at 20dB which can be evaded by all scouts at some effort, not maximum, and seen by everyone, esp CA scouts that then can engage before the Amarr sees him. Doesn't seem to break anything. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 39	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:19:00 - [17193] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Let's start building the premises and agree on them one by one. Let's also remember that the focused GA pro logi has 15dB. Best precision should therefore be 14dB or less Best dampener only needs an equal amount of dampeners to amount of precision modules on best precision to beat him. Appias suggestion. All scouts should be able to beat the best precision, with cloak? Without cloak? Discuss. Complex plates will have the same signature penalty as a complex dampener so each plate cancels out a dampener. This is something I want to explore, it will also make brick sentinels stand out like christmas trees. Let's keep working on this. I feel that if you remove all scout ewar bonus and low precision down close to damp then let the suit slot counter each other will be what are you looking for. Also give them sidearm bonus instate would be interesting could be wrong though Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15334	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:19:00 - [17194] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. Assaults can already see sentinels on scans. Every single scanner type in the game can see a heavy without exception. The effect of a profile penalty on plates is effectively zero. It doesn't make sentinels any easier to see, it doesn't disadvantage them at all. Instead of sentinels being seen by assaults, what would actually happen is assaults would be seen by sentinels. That's a really, really serious problem. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4073	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:21:00 - [17195] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. Assaults can already see sentinels on scans. Every single scanner type in the game can see a heavy without exception. The effect of a profile penalty on plates is effectively zero. It doesn't make sentinels any easier to see, it doesn't disadvantage them at all. Instead of sentinels being seen by assaults, what would actually happen is assaults would be seen by sentinels. That's a really, really serious problem. Brick tanked assaults "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10862	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:23:00 - [17196] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. Assaults can already see sentinels on scans. Every single scanner type in the game can see a heavy without exception. The effect of a profile penalty on plates is effectively zero. It doesn't make sentinels any easier to see, it doesn't disadvantage them at all. Instead of sentinels being seen by assaults, what would actually happen is assaults would be seen by sentinels. That's a really, really serious problem. I've been told of this change. I am scratching my head. DO NOT put a dampening penalty on plates, **** over my assault more why don't ya? And what's funny is that you're even CONSIDERING putting it on ferroscale and reactive plates, which I already find difficulty justifying using when switching to a shield suit will yield better results. (Due to not needing armor repairers) Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
voidfaction Void of Faction 313	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:24:00 - [17197] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Let's start building the premises and agree on them one by one. Let's also remember that the focused GA pro logi has 15dB. Best precision should therefore be 14dB or less Best dampener only needs an equal amount of dampeners to amount of precision modules on best precision to beat him. Appias suggestion. All scouts should be able to beat the best precision, with cloak? Without cloak? Discuss. Complex plates will have the same signature penalty as a complex dampener so each plate cancels out a dampener. This is something I want to explore, it will also make brick sentinels stand out like christmas trees. Let's keep working on this. We have that now as all scouts other than Cal scout can avoid 15db scan with 3x dampeners and cloak. Problem is the cal scout. do you buff cal profile to enable them to do the same with 2 slots. or do you buff cloak dampening enough so only 2 dampeners are needed for all scouts? if you want to force gal into using more slots then you need to reduce profile bonus. wont be long gal just wont have any bonus at all.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10862	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:27:00 - [17198] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. Assaults can already see sentinels on scans. Every single scanner type in the game can see a heavy without exception. The effect of a profile penalty on plates is effectively zero. It doesn't make sentinels any easier to see, it doesn't disadvantage them at all. Instead of sentinels being seen by assaults, what would actually happen is assaults would be seen by sentinels. That's a really, really serious problem. Brick tanked assaults Armor assaults in general. Rattati, EVERY SINGLE HEAVY can be scanned by the WEAKEST SCANNERS, no exceptions. You are not nerfing sentinels, they will not see a difference, at all. You are nerfing assaults. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2488	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:27:00 - [17199] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The cloak is there for reference at the bottom. We can also reduce the dampening bonus of the cloak to zero. From a "I want all scouts to be unscannable in some way even by sacrificing all slots and cloak" point of view, I think we need to have that discussion. I think we can tune these numbers to an acceptable resolution. Why do you think ratio of precision to dampening should not be 1:1? This is the biggest problem with perceiving any sense of balance in giving Amarr Scout a bonus to precision. I don't understand the question. This game is played in absolutes. I want to have the lowest Scan Precision possible on one suit and the lowest Scan Profile possible on another. The question is if the best Scan Precision can be acquired in only 2 modules (Amarr Scout with 2 Complex Precision Enhancers) why shouldn't the best Scan Profile be similarly acquired with the same number of modules? I think it has to do with the slot numbers and location. Filling up one side VS having to fill up the other side. Since the precision mods are HS and damps LS, it would create some mismatching. I also think that it would be easier if the precisions and damps were both LS OR both HS (LS preferably), then it would mean that you could do it this way, and that both suits were giving up the same thigns. BUT I also know that we are just asking for numbers at this point, and will play around with some myself. Hopefully I don't implode any universes in my attempts. This is how a minja feels
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 705	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:30:00 - [17200] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want everyone to have 2 bonuses, please suggest another bonus for the GA. The range of the CA, that's where I was playing around with the max range reached by other scouts with many lows. I wanted to beat the maximum range reached by others, but that may be a fallacy. I agree with comparing to Active scanners, but how favorably, in this case less than active scanners because the scout precision is better than active scanners? Well the removal of shared passives would make a difference. But let's set that aside for now. Pre 1.8 precision wasn't the only reason people spammed the active scanners. My undampened BPO suit was immune as a base to all but Proto scans. This made sense as in the scanning balance when equal in value goes to the scanner but getting a lower profile is easier (in terms of meta etc level) to attain. But people still spammed the active scanners like crazy because they used them to see every other suit in the game as well. The nerf to angle is really what hit that hard. Maybe ease up on the Gal logi Precision bonus and make it's range/angle bonus considerable. Like very considerable. Almost to what it was before. Precision is problematic as one player trading 1 equipment slot to force every suit of a class to lose their equipment to cloak and several mods to damps is not a fair exchange. I also have concerns that how we're currently balancing EWAR gives too much power to the proto stompers. The rule generally for all scoutly roles (The fast Glass Cannon, sneaky hacker etc) are all fundamentally tied to not being scanned. And as I said before, in your generic pubmatch it was a lot easier to go un-scanned that it is now. I'm going through the sheet again to see if I can suggest some numbers but just wanted to throw in my 2 ISK on that issue. Thanks. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN

Bojo The Mighty Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno 4107	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:30:00 - [17201] - Quote Perhaps put a PG cost on dampeners and range amps. The 20% v 25% disparity between Enhancers and dampeners is justified by increased fitting and ISK cost. However the dampeners should really be pushed a little further in fitting cost perhaps so as to justify a 2 beats 3 kind of situation where stacking bonuses start to wear down precision enhancers. Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15335	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:31:00 - [17202] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. Assaults can already see sentinels on scans. Every single scanner type in the game can see a heavy without exception. The effect of a profile penalty on plates is effectively zero. It doesn't make sentinels any easier to see, it doesn't disadvantage them at all. Instead of sentinels being seen by assaults, what would actually happen is assaults would be seen by sentinels. That's a really, really serious problem. Brick tanked assaults No. Any assault with a plate on. To make any assault with a plate on visible to heavies is going to hurt assaults a lot more than it'll hurt sentinels. Actually, it doesn't hurt sentinels at all - it hurts assaults and effectively buffs sentinels against armour tanking suits. And do we really need to discourage using assaults even more? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Syeven Reed G0DS AM0NG MEN 758	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:32:00 - [17203] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. I do like this train of thought! For many reasons, not many of which are biased! Twitter MajLagSpike CPM Application

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4076	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:33:00 - [17204] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. Assaults can already see sentinels on scans. Every single scanner type in the game can see a heavy without exception. The effect of a profile penalty on plates is effectively zero. It doesn't make sentinels any easier to see, it doesn't disadvantage them at all. Instead of sentinels being seen by assaults, what would actually happen is assaults would be seen by sentinels. That's a really, really serious problem. Brick tanked assaults Armor assaults in general. Rattati, EVERY SINGLE HEAVY can be scanned by the WEAKEST SCANNERS, no exceptions. You are not nerfing sentinels, they will not see a difference, at all. You are nerfing assaults. Your worry is noted, as if it weren't obvious. Who says we cannot remedy that. Also, brick tanking is too prevalent, we all know this. I also recommend that you stop using caps, I have already said I will not tolerate ranting. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 166	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:33:00 - [17205] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We want everyone to have 2 bonuses, please suggest another bonus for the GA. The range of the CA, that's where I was playing around with the max range reached by other scouts with many lows. I wanted to beat the maximum range reached by others, but that may be a fallacy. I agree with comparing to Active scanners, but how favorably, in this case less than active scanners because the scout precision is better than active scanners? You haven't suggested 2 bonuses for Cal or Am scouts, why does Gal need 2? Passive scanning needs to be shorter range than active scanning because it is continuous and operates through 360 degrees, without giving warning to scanned targets. Active scanner scan arc and cool downs are significant drawbacks, not to mention you have to actually stop and use the scanner. Precision isn't the issue. Edit, sorry forgot you were keeping the Am stamina bonus.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4076	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:34:00 - [17206] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. Assaults can already see sentinels on scans. Every single scanner type in the game can see a heavy without exception. The effect of a profile penalty on plates is effectively zero. It doesn't make sentinels any easier to see, it doesn't disadvantage them at all. Instead of sentinels being seen by assaults, what would actually happen is assaults would be seen by sentinels. That's a really, really serious problem. I've been told of this change. I am scratching my head. DO NOT put a dampening penalty on plates, **** over my assault more why don't ya? And what's funny is that you're even CONSIDERING putting it on ferroscale and reactive plates, which I already find difficulty justifying using when switching to a shield suit will yield better results. (Due to not needing armor repairers) Am I considering it? Interesting, because I was unaware that I was. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 40	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:35:00 - [17207] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: very slow, short range, scanner at 20dB which can be evaded by all scouts at some effort, not maximum, and seen by everyone, esp CA scouts that then can engage before the Amarr sees him. Doesn't seem to break anything. could break Assault though. Feeling people will run it as assault Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
hfderrtgvcd Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:35:00 - [17208] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: How about this: Caldari Scout: 5% bonus to scan range pre level, 3% scan precision per level Amarr Scout: 3% bonus to scan range per level, 5% scan precision per level Gallente Scout: 3% bonus to profile per level, 3% bonus to scan range per level Minmatar stays as is Any thoughts on this?
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10862	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:36:00 - [17209] - Quote Syeven Reed wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. I do like this train of thought! For many reasons, not many of which are biased! All of them are biased. The only thing it will be positive against is brick tanked scouts. EVERYTHING ELSE it will break. Everything. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10862	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:37:00 - [17210] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Am I considering it? Interesting, because I was unaware that I was. Quote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Quote: To begin with Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4076	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:38:00 - [17211] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We want everyone to have 2 bonuses, please suggest another bonus for the GA. The range of the CA, that's where I was playing around with the max range reached by other scouts with many lows. I wanted to beat the maximum range reached by others, but that may be a fallacy. I agree with comparing to Active scanners, but how favorably, in this case less than active scanners because the scout precision is better than active scanners? You haven't suggested 2 bonuses for Cal or Am scouts, why does Gal need 2? Passive scanning needs to be shorter range than active scanning because it is continuous and operates through 360 degrees, without giving warning to scanned targets. Active scanner scan arc and cool downs are significant drawbacks, not to mention you have to actually stop and use the scanner. Precision isn't the issue. Edit, sorry forgot you were keeping the Am stamina bonus. Is it not then fallacy to establish max passive scans to be below active and instead at equal or above? I know that brings back the GA logi, but why not? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

hfderrtgvcd Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:38:00 - [17212] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Syeven Reed wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. I do like this train of thought! For many reasons, not many of which are biased! All of them are biased. The only thing it will be positive against is brick tanked scouts. EVERYTHING ELSE it will break. Everything. There's no reason to overreact, he did say it was just a proposal.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4082	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:39:00 - [17213] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Am I considering it? Interesting, because I was unaware that I was. Quote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Quote: To begin with Your logic is flawed, I meant extenders, and the not was a definitive not. You can apologize in caps. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10865	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:39:00 - [17214] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Syeven Reed wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. I do like this train of thought! For many reasons, not many of which are biased! All of them are biased. The only thing it will be positive against is brick tanked scouts. EVERYTHING ELSE it will break. Everything. There's no reason to overreact, he did say it was just a proposal. I am overreacting because it is probably the least thought out idea I have ever seen from Rattati. Nothing else I've seen beats it in that regard. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10865	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:40:00 - [17215] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Am I considering it? Interesting, because I was unaware that I was. Quote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Quote: To begin with Your logic is flawed, I meant extenders, and the not was a definitive not. You can apologize in caps. I AM SORRY FOR OVERREACTING MEOW CAN I HAVE TUNA? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 2153	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:42:00 - [17216] - Quote I do hope you'll not let the cat chase you off. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3296	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:43:00 - [17217] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Let's start building the premises and agree on them one by one. (1)Let's also remember that the focused GA pro logi has 15dB. (2)Best precision should therefore be 14dB or less (3)Best dampener only needs an equal amount of dampeners to amount of precision modules on best precision to beat him. Appias suggestion. (4)All scouts should be able to beat the best precision, with cloak? Without cloak? Discuss. (5) Complex plates will have the same signature penalty as a complex dampener so each plate cancels out a dampener. This is something I want to explore, it will also make brick sentinels stand out like christmas trees. Let's keep working on this. (1) A lot of the problems I see with the EWAR system for scouts is based of the Gallente Logistics Operation having a bonus to precision. Off topic, but I really think all Logistics suits need a bonus to all 5 Support EQ (Hives/Injector, Active Scanners, Repair Tool, Uplinks) so that a Scout that focuses on Precision, like many Cal-Scouts do now, cannot be psuedo-Logis that they are now. Even if that happened, because precision is so important with the best bonus to precision on active scanners will draw the most attention and make Active scanners on other suits obsolete (2) I actually like the best module based precision being equal to the best scanner. It keeps the two competitive and making it an active decision to choose between the two. Single slot item vs several modules, always up vs longer range, high volume vs 360-¦ (3) nods (4) I really liked pre-Alpha where my Gal Scout could choose between 1 Low slots and 1 EQ or between 2 Low Slots. I really wish the Minmatar had the option of 3PD or 2PD and Cloak. But with caldari having the greatest precision I like them always being able to scan themselves. Instead I'd like to see the Best values of Cal using 4 high slots and Min using 3 low slots and a EQ slot possible with just the ARN-18 cloak field. Letting the PRO be chosen for duration and regen over necessity. (5) Only problem with this is that it would only work out if all suits had a gradual "Precision Decay" that went out to 100m and you only got your suit's value up to it's Optimal Range. Instead it just hurts Gallente and Amarr Assaults and Logistics because any Sentinel or Commando could pick them up on passive. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Empress of Alts
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 708	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:43:00 - [17218] - Quote Cat, calm down. In the buff to assaults they may add a bonus where these traits that come with modules may be excepted. e.g. No increase in recharge time to shield extenders, armour plates have no slowdown or increase in profile effect. The goal is to reduce brick tanked scouts. I would encourage a buff to both medium and heavy frame range if we go down the "no squad sight" path, 18m for medium, 12 for heavy or something like that. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4082	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:44:00 - [17219] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: hfderrtgvcd wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Syeven Reed wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Plates only to begin with, not reactives and ferros. Sentinels would be easier to see also by Assaults, not everyone is scout you see. I do like this train of thought! For many reasons, not many of which are biased! All of them are biased. The only thing it will be positive against is brick tanked scouts. EVERYTHING ELSE it will break. Everything. There's no reason to overreact, he did say it was just a proposal. I am overreacting because it is probably the least thought out idea I have ever seen from Rattati. Nothing else I've seen beats it in that regard. Entertain me, and elaborate. I know it was a bombshell, but we have been discussing this for months internally, how speed penalties are not working to diffuse the brick tanking situation. EVE has/had sig penalties on modules. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15337	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:47:00 - [17220] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: brick tanking is too prevalent, we all know this. This isn't really so much a case of nerfing brick tanking so much as it's a case of heavily disincentivising any tank at all. In this particular case, scouts would actually be able to out-tank assaults while not being visible on sentinel scans on account of their lower profile, because they'd be able to fit a plate whilst an assault wouldn't be able to. What are you attempting to encourage the use of in place of brick tanking? Kincats? Scouts can use them more effectively because they're a % based item and they have a higher base. Range amps? Same reason. Armour repairers? You need a baseline amount of tank before those become realistically useful. PG/CPU upgrades? These aren't going to have any practical effect if you're putting them on only because you can't put something else in that slot. Shield regulators? Not useful for an armour tanking suit. Cardiac regulators? You're not going to need more than one, and again, a scout can use it more effectively. Discouraging the use of plates so drastically becomes a significant reduction to TTK and relatively scouts become more effective against assaults, while heavies get a huge relative buff because the other classes either can't tank as much or they become visible on scan. You have to tank. Otherwise, you die before you can react to anything. But you can't afford to be visible on a sentinel's scan. There are two ways a non-heavy unit can engage a heavy, either from long range, or by flanking. If flanking takes such a hit, that relegates non-heavies to a long-range role. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.



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