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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 178 post(s) |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
1808
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Posted - 2014.06.05 04:20:00 -
[14971] - Quote
LeGoose wrote:As shotty said Jace it happens every patch. Luckily, now you have a wealth of knowledge and experience to assist you in adapting your play style to the new update (this is what we do best).
On a side note, I will need to run some scout squads when I finally have internet again just to get a feel for the new meta and to shake the dust off from not playing for over a week. My impression is that there is much less room for adaptation. Particularly on my minja fit. If I weren't going proto, and were trying to run isk positive suits again, I don't know what I would do.
At least prior to 1.8 I could be dampened even on a std suit, and be mostly undetectable. Now I don't know that is an option anymore, at least not on a std suit.
New players really got the shaft as much as anyone. I get wanting to encourage proto gear, but now its practically a requirement.
The REAL Internet King
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Bayeth Mal
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
527
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Posted - 2014.06.05 04:47:00 -
[14972] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:Interesting... In response to moving from passive bonuses to module efficiency bonuses. CCP Logibro wrote:I literally just stood up and said to myself "Why didn't I think of that?!" /facepalm
(Apologies to anyone that actually did suggest it earlier that we may have missed.)
I'll have a chat with CCP Ratatti and we can some numbers. That might actually work better, not to mention it would be closer to the Amarr and Minmatar scouts which also have module/weapon efficacy bonuses as well. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2194274#post2194274
I am one of those people that said bonuses should be to modules/equipment and not passively tied to the suit.
Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others
Hit me up for Skype and PSN
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Bayeth Mal
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
528
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Posted - 2014.06.05 04:58:00 -
[14973] - Quote
Found it!
Bayeth Mal wrote:Like Monk catching up on the barbershop, you guys will notice me liking random posts Edit: also since every one and their respective dogs are getting to throw out their zany half arsed ideas here's mine. http://imgur.com/R0TZZ8NTo make it clear. I am not saying that those roles are exactly what they should or that they fit the EVE side lore. Just that we should build a tree like that. Minja kinda already fits this, as their 2nd competency is the knives which you have to actually equip and use. Also to clarify, by stand and deliver I generally mean an amount of tank that would begin to cross into Assault level amounts. Generally best used for ranged fighting where you may also be taking return fire. So good weapons for this would be RR/ScR/Laser etc. But you would be very vulnerable to other scouts (Being fairly easily visible and easier to hide from). Giving the Gal/Cal range to the Amarr with damps/precision being something they actually have to build towards. Gal and cal have a bonus to range extenders allowing them to slap on a mod to get back what they lose should they want it. Gives every suit a role and doesn't result in the "take op suit A, slap on OP weapon B and fill all mods with tank as desired".
Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others
Hit me up for Skype and PSN
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Ghost Kaisar
The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance
5102
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Posted - 2014.06.05 05:12:00 -
[14974] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Appia Vibbia wrote:I know you're calling him the vocal minority. but it is a pretty accurate stance on the forums. They need their trump card... but don't call it that because they will use the best mental gymnastics to figure out a way that it isn't even if that defies logic.
The majority of players do not want a tactical game, which is what stealth is. Stealth protects your tactics, not your skills. We're really the vocal minority. We want a better game, they want an easier game. Exactly. I honestly think that it's safe now to move back to pre-1.8 scouts now. Logi's have lost most of their ability to marginalize scouts (which was the real problem) F-The-Cloak, gimme back the old bonus. At the same time, do this: Give the Gal Logi larger bonuses to cool-down and active scan duration. They will be able to scan medium frames more effectively. Scouts who don't proto damp will still get scanned. At the same time, make Active Scans share with the team. Passive gets shared in squad. This way, most teams will only run 1-2 Scan Gal Logi's. They use their scans to more effectively scan hot areas for the ground pounders, but won't pick up scouts. Assaults will still be able to proto damp, but will sacrifice low slots to do so. Sounds like a good trade to me. Get rid of the cloak. Seriously. Do this: and then we can give the bonuses to scouts some meaning. Min Scout: 5% Nova Knife and Hacking Gallente: +1 Armor rep per level Amarr: 5% Scan Range per level Caldari: +5 Shield Recharge per level Bonuses are more suited toward regen or utitily instead of eWAR. The Modules become the reason why eWAR is strong for these suits, combined with their better base skills in these areas. Scouts become good at exposing the troops around them without alerting them. For most scouts though, range is limited, and only the squad shares the intel. Gal Logi's become good at exposing troops at a distance, but warns the enemy. Range is good, cooldown is greatly reduced, and the intel is shared with the team. Sound decent? Regen is a really bad bonus, it's very strong and will attract or keep the slayers in Scout suits. Needs something different. But the rest is great.
Regen with low buffer is good for scouts. The buffer is the problem.
It's so easy to stack HP on scouts (Except for the Minmatar)
Do whatever you want for the bonuses, but I really want the eWAR balanced I mentioned implemented. It would give both scouts and Gal Logies a similar role, but with different strengths and weaknesses
Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP
PSN: EVL_Elgost105
RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
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Jaceon Pale-eye
DUST University Ivy League
100
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Posted - 2014.06.05 13:32:00 -
[14975] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Hang in there, Jace.
Mercs are in optimization mode. Lots of people are running their best sh*t to see what works and what doesn't. Happens every time there's a big change. Soon a new FoTM will be declared King and things will slowly get back to normal.
In the mean time, squad up with us. You know where to find us. I did consider giving up, like Monk mentioned in the post above yours.
Then I got angry.
Then I went 5/4 with 900+ WP, 6/6 with 700+ and 7/9 with 1000+.
I'm having to re-learn quite a few things and it still feels like I'm not cloaked at all where other scouts are concerned... but I'm not going anywhere. CCP gon' fix this **** or Rattati and Logibro can BOTH get stabbed (ingame m8)
Vote Appia Vibbia for CPM1 or I'll stab you in the neck!
(ingame m8 m8 o7 o7)
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Jaceon Pale-eye
DUST University Ivy League
101
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Posted - 2014.06.05 13:48:00 -
[14976] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Appia Vibbia wrote: I want to protect my Minmatar Scout first
there is also several dozen assault fixes out there. we should go downstairs and compile our favoreites and endorce one or two together
Agreed on both counts. @ Minmatar Brothers Logibro's already working on knives. What else do you need? Let's keep it numeric and specific if at all possible. o7 PS: Where the heck are Moody and Musturd? I'm not good enough to do numbers at all yet; there's too many things I'm not really up to snuff on. But for a start, the CPU/PG buff Minjas have been begging for would be a great start. At this point, after reading the other comments and knowing it's not just me, I'm really liking the idea of a game with no cloaks where all scouts suits, as part of the scout role, get a bonus for the stealth that our suits are supposed to epitomize. I also like the idea of a stealth-related role-bonus being tied to the efficacy of the modules themselves.
In a nutshell, scouts should at their base be harder to scan and better at scanning. And those who choose tank over their actual scouting role should be easier to find and kill than scouts who fit for scouting.
In other words, a PRO Cal scout should not automatically see a damped STD scout if that PRO Cal scout is running nothing but shield extenders and damage mods in his highs like a light Assault and a brick-tanked Gal scout should not be able to hide from even an Amarr scout running PEs.
This concept that's been put forward by a number of people does two things:
MAKES us fit for the role.
REWARDS us for doing so.
Sounds good to me.
Vote Appia Vibbia for CPM1 or I'll stab you in the neck!
(ingame m8 m8 o7 o7)
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IgniteableAura
The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance
1199
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Posted - 2014.06.05 14:32:00 -
[14977] - Quote
I've been pretty happy with the changes thus far. No more gal scouts with cloak and 800hp. All cloaked dudes I can pretty much see no problem, or they have chevrons on their head. Makes cloaked logis reaaallllly funny.
The sad part, I've stopped running ewar on my cal scout as its just not as useful. I am better off throwing plates and shield extenders on. (we totally didn't see that coming) In my experience I can usually flip around and instablap scouts that are sneaky since they need to fit so many damps to remain hidden. One or two bursts from CR and they are dead.
Tanks: Still seeing a lot of them, blasters still seem to "hit me enough" that I die pretty much when they see me. I have killed quite a few with proxys and my PLC. You have to babysit your proxys so that you can toss nades and a hit with the PLC to get a kill however. So thats ~6 proxys, 2 nades and a PLC to take out a single tank. Still pretty broken IMO.
When using proxys, put them in a straight line and not all on top of one another. Most tanks are rolling around so fast they can't stop and will hit all your mines in succession. When they are all packed together they tend to not do full damage.
It will be interesting to see how things progress, I am curious what will be in "Bravo"
Youtube
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1435
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Posted - 2014.06.05 15:08:00 -
[14978] - Quote
Rattati is at least looking in the right place.
Kagehoshi brazenly requests a return of the Slayer Logi. (-1) Srsly?
Broker (with help from Appia) points to a solution in the opposing direction. (+1) Good stuff, brother :-)
I may be getting ahead of myself, but here's my two cents on the matter. We'll also push for a PG/CPU buff for MinScout in Beta (one issue per thread, and all that).
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14101
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Posted - 2014.06.05 15:27:00 -
[14979] - Quote
Uh... The main change he's suggesting for logis is actually to remove a slot from the Callogi and make it an equipment slot. I think you're being too sensitive if you're interpreting that as advocating 'the return of the slayer logi'.
Unless you mean making the lower tiered logis somewhat usable is a terrible thing as well.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1437
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Posted - 2014.06.05 16:03:00 -
[14980] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Uh... The main change he's suggesting for logis is actually to remove a slot from the Callogi and make it an equipment slot. I think you're being too sensitive if you're interpreting that as advocating 'the return of the slayer logi'. Unless you mean making the lower tiered logis somewhat usable is a terrible thing as well.
Good catch. You're right at the prototype level. I missed that tier. Will rephrase.
But look at his suggestions ... His Standard Logi has slot configs on par with a Prototype Scout.
If Logis aren't broken, why include them in an overhaul?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14102
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Posted - 2014.06.05 16:17:00 -
[14981] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote: Good catch. You're right at the prototype level. I missed that tier. Will rephrase.
But look at his suggestions ... His Standard Logi has slot configs on par with a Prototype Scout.
Assaults are being outperformed in their primary role. The same cannot be said for Logis.
If Logis aren't broken, why buff them?
Baffling. I think he's a proponent of tiericide, so I suppose that might be why.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1437
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Posted - 2014.06.05 16:26:00 -
[14982] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Baffling. I think he's a proponent of tiericide, so I suppose that might be why.
I'm not opposed to the concept; I should rephrase ...
If lower-tier Logis are broken, then by all means fix them. Is Broker's proposition insufficient?
Current Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/1_3/2_5/4 Gal_0/2_2/3_3/5 Min_2/2_3/3_4/4 Am_2/2_3/3_3/4
Proposed Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_3/2_4/3_4/3 Gal_2/3_2/4_3/4 Min_3/2_3/3_4/3 Am_2/3_3/3_3/4
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14103
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Posted - 2014.06.05 16:32:00 -
[14983] - Quote
Yes. Honestly, I think the extra slot should just move from the logi to the assault and then we can see what that does.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
3469
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Posted - 2014.06.05 16:45:00 -
[14984] - Quote
I know not the Logi way, I am not an AssaultGǪ but Should the Assaut not be the one with the best slot layoutGǪ I mean Logi are loaded with Equipment, should they not have less slots than Assaults. a few slots so they can tank what they want, but Assaults should have more versatility in fitting for speedy assault, tanky assault, aggressive assaultGǪ Why you need all these slots Logi?
KRRROOOOOOM
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Appia Vibbia
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
2826
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Posted - 2014.06.05 18:32:00 -
[14985] - Quote
I'd prefer it if every suit had the same number of slots. With Light Weapon being worth 3 slots and Heavy Weapon being worth 5.
So Scouts have 13 slots. 5 weapons, 2 EQ and 6 module Logistics have 13 slots. 4 weapon, 4 EQ, and 5 module Assault have 13 slots. 5 weapons, 1 EQ, and 7 module Heavies have 13 slots. 7 weapon, 0 EQ, and 5 module Commandos have 13 slots. 6 weapon, 1 EQ, 5 module
then give a buff to medium frame HP to bring it to the middle of Light and heavy.
that's not really a great idea. meh. back to the drawing board
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com
AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2244
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Posted - 2014.06.05 19:04:00 -
[14986] - Quote
Been playing around in my dragon fly + shotty. (wow I die a lot) Haven't yet felt much of a change from Alpha but since it was a cloak-less fit with only minimal damps and no role SP this is as expected and indicative of very little.
I'm still shopping for a viable "objective ninja" fit. Something that can require hostile forces to stay on a point or they lose it, something that can hack, move, and hide. Have you folks seen enough of Alpha yet to be able to point me in the right direction so I can invest this SP and start trying things out?
Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1827
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Posted - 2014.06.05 20:57:00 -
[14987] - Quote
Obversation time!
I've seen a lot more assault combat rifles than previously. Quite a bit more Minnie Scouts. Almost no Amarr scouts. An increased number of HMG heavies. A fair bit more Ar's, even a breach. Very little Rail rifles, oddly enough. Scramblers are still rare enough. Tankers are still assholes (Though I did manage to get Spkr earlier)
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2125
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Posted - 2014.06.05 21:27:00 -
[14988] - Quote
Brokerib wrote: The main issue with fitting the Minmatar is that all of the tools and modules that enhance their playstyle are heavy consumers of PG/CPU, and/or are in competition with each other for fitting slots. Kin Cats are a massive cost for dubious benefit, Nova Knives don't have an optimization skill, and dampeners/kincats/hacking modules all reside in low slots. I'm fine with only being able to chose 2 out of 3 when it comes to hack/speed/stealth, but currently we only really get the choice of 1, as anything less than 3 damps wont get me below a dual precision Cal.
Best suggestion I've seen for the Amarr is to take the scan range bonus from the Cal/Gal and give it to the Amarr. Due to the lack of highs, they won't be good for passively scanning other scouts, but with a couple of range amps in low they would be really excellent as light assault who are able to see mediums and heavies from range. Additionally, the removal of range from the Cal means that, while it retains extremely high precision scanning, they're very limited in their range so they need to put themselves into danger to make use of it. While with Gals, they remain invisible but lose visibility without giving up lows, giving them the choice between tank and vision.
So range combined with the stamina bonus makes them useful, and each scout gets an EWAR bonus of some sort (if you consider the Min hack bonus to be EWAR related). Would need replacement bonuses for the Cal and Gal though.
I wonder if they can add a new skill or retool an existing one to give you guys that Nova Knife fitting optimization. I don't imagine there is much Nova Knives use outside of the Minmatar Scout, so it would be a straight upgrade without affecting much else.
That suggestion for the Amarr is pretty damn solid from my perspective, it gives the Amarr a nice large sweeping scan that isn't designed to pick up dampened scouts but finds mediums and heavies more readily. It also allows Caldari to maintain very good passive scans but over a shorter distance. You might even argue that that properly balances the Cal/Gal issue, in that Caldari can see a Gal scout that isn't heavily dampened, but only at close range when it may be too late.
So basically
Gallente - Dodge most Scans Caldari - Insane scans but only as close range Amarr - Average scans but over a large range Minmatar - Hacking/Assassin
I rather like that, I think it would make the Amarr relevant and probably make the Gallente Scouts more comfortable with the Caldari Scouts. Get some more PG/CPU in the hands of the Minmatar and I think you'll be golden.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
112
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Posted - 2014.06.05 21:45:00 -
[14989] - Quote
I do not agree with swapping logi and assault slot counts. The whole point of a logi is that it is more versatile, as well as the equipment. Perhaps all that needs doing to assaults is a slight hp buff.
I really don't think there is much between assaults and other suits. The changes don't need to be drastic.
Edit: apart from Amarr assaults, having a slot less just doesn't work, even with the extra pg/CPU. |
Master Smurf
Nos Nothi
502
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Posted - 2014.06.05 21:51:00 -
[14990] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I do not agree with swapping logi and assault slot counts. The whole point of a logi is that it is more versatile, as well as the equipment. Perhaps all that needs doing to assaults is a slight hp buff.
I really don't think there is much between assaults and other suits. The changes don't need to be drastic.
Edit: apart from Amarr assaults, having a slot less just doesn't work, even with the extra pg/CPU.
The elephant in the room is that people dont do versatility with the extra slots - they tank.
If we had a system where the suits had the same or similar slots but some were designated tank/gank and others designated ewar then it may be ok.
"Shine bright like a diamond"
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
3473
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Posted - 2014.06.05 21:55:00 -
[14991] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:I'm still shopping for a viable "objective ninja" fit. Something that can require hostile forces to stay on a point or they lose it, something that can hack, move, and hide. Have you folks seen enough of Alpha yet to be able to point me in the right direction so I can invest this SP and start trying things out? If it were not for the word "Viable" what you are describing is the Minja. Cal scout would actually be a good suit for this kind of play as little can sneak past you. Even though you cannot hide from another Cal scout you at least will see them coming as well. This allows you to fit Kinz or range extenders (I would go one of each at Proto) Cal has the fitting capacity to work with that the Minja cannot match.
Gal can do it as well as the Cal, but at the negative intel level as opposed to positive intel. (though if you put two complex Precision Enhancers in i think you get to see everybody but Gal scoutsGǪ)
Amarr would work well because you have all the slots you need to adapt to whatever scout situation you need.
MinjaGǪ we do it the Badass wayGǪ
KRRROOOOOOM
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1446
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:12:00 -
[14992] - Quote
Hang tight, Pokey. As far as I know, we're still spit-balling here.
Let's take a step back. "Recon" is a specialist's role. We presently have one Scout which is very good at it. We're proposing to have two Scouts which are bad it.
That does not sound like progress. What am I missing?
I think we all agree that Minmatar Scouts need to be better at beating scans. I think we all agree that Amarr Scouts need a function they can perform best.
But is nerfing the Caldari Scout the best way to accomplish these goals? I don't think so.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2248
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:23:00 -
[14993] - Quote
Spademan wrote:Obversation time!
I've seen a lot more assault combat rifles than previously. Quite a bit more Minnie Scouts. Almost no Amarr scouts. An increased number of HMG heavies. A fair bit more Ar's, even a breach. Very little Rail rifles, oddly enough. Scramblers are still rare enough. Tankers are still assholes (Though I did manage to get Spkr earlier) Observations are good (and within forum posts even timestamped ) keep 'em coming
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1308
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:27:00 -
[14994] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I do not agree with swapping logi and assault slot counts. The whole point of a logi is that it is more versatile, as well as the equipment. Perhaps all that needs doing to assaults is a slight hp buff.
I really don't think there is much between assaults and other suits. The changes don't need to be drastic.
Edit: apart from Amarr assaults, having a slot less just doesn't work, even with the extra pg/CPU. I disagree slightly. I think the point of the Medium is versatility.
Does the logi need to be more versatile than the Assault in both equipment and modules? Currently they bring more utility through equipment, in addition to being able to out tank Assaults because of the skewed fit count.
Knowledge is power
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1828
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:28:00 -
[14995] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Spademan wrote:Obversation time!
I've seen a lot more assault combat rifles than previously. Quite a bit more Minnie Scouts. Almost no Amarr scouts. An increased number of HMG heavies. A fair bit more Ar's, even a breach. Very little Rail rifles, oddly enough. Scramblers are still rare enough. Tankers are still assholes (Though I did manage to get Spkr earlier) Observations are good (and within forum posts even timestamped ) keep 'em coming Oh damnit. Y'know what? Not even gonna edit that. Obversations, why not?
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2248
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:30:00 -
[14996] - Quote
Llast 326 wrote:Cross Atu wrote:I'm still shopping for a viable "objective ninja" fit. Something that can require hostile forces to stay on a point or they lose it, something that can hack, move, and hide. Have you folks seen enough of Alpha yet to be able to point me in the right direction so I can invest this SP and start trying things out? If it were not for the word "Viable" what you are describing is the Minja. Cal scout would actually be a good suit for this kind of play as little can sneak past you. Even though you cannot hide from another Cal scout you at least will see them coming as well. This allows you to fit Kinz or range extenders (I would go one of each at Proto) Cal has the fitting capacity to work with that the Minja cannot match. Gal can do it as well as the Cal, but at the negative intel level as opposed to positive intel. (though if you put two complex Precision Enhancers in i think you get to see everybody but Gal scoutsGǪ) Amarr would work well because you have all the slots you need to adapt to whatever scout situation you need. MinjaGǪ we do it the Badass wayGǪ See, now, that's just cruel. Here I am trying to be a good little theory crater and actually test some of my ideas under combat conditions and you have to go and appeal to my love of making once off fits work. If I had gun game to speak of this might even turn out alright for me because I could make up for some of the minja fittings issues through player skill, but alas If SP were no object I'd just throw some into all of them and test each but as it stands... it stands I may just end up trying to make the minja work out of sheer bloody mindedness Maybe I can persuade myself that my dragonfly suit is enough reason to put points elsewhere... maybe. (but more than likely I'll just end up asking CCP the same questions about min scouts as about pure support logi, i.e. "why you no like unique viable roles?" Who knows, maybe with RinTinTin around I'll even get an answer )
Thanks for the reply
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1830
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:34:00 -
[14997] - Quote
Question, do you guys think the Rail Rifle is Overpowered or in a good place? I don't really see much people using it anymore but I seem to be able to rack up a lot of kills with it relatively easily.
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
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Ghost Kaisar
The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance
5112
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:42:00 -
[14998] - Quote
I would like to say that the Min Scout is fine is PC.
Just went like 15-4 in PC
But it was against Phoenix Fed.....
Not sure if that counts....
Here is the fit:
2x Complex Shield 1x Complex Damage Mod
Duvolle Ishnoks C-7 Flux
F/45 RE ADV Cloak
2x Damp 1x Enhanced Ferro
Did surprisingly well. The extra armor helped out a lot IMO
Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP
PSN: EVL_Elgost105
RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2249
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:49:00 -
[14999] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:I do not agree with swapping logi and assault slot counts. The whole point of a logi is that it is more versatile, as well as the equipment. Perhaps all that needs doing to assaults is a slight hp buff.
I really don't think there is much between assaults and other suits. The changes don't need to be drastic.
Edit: apart from Amarr assaults, having a slot less just doesn't work, even with the extra pg/CPU. I disagree slightly. I think the point of the Medium is versatility. Does the logi need to be more versatile than the Assault in both equipment and modules? Currently they bring more utility through equipment, in addition to being able to out tank Assaults because of the skewed fit count. One problem, and it's a historic one so I don't know how much it still applies, is that once upon a time Logi had no extra slots above the Assault (now hold on, before everyone says I'm gibbering mad, let me break out some context) See if look at the Assault base stats by race, and then use mods to bring Logi suit base stats up to at least meet them (again by race) there were no extra slots (arguably you still had more slots to work with because of equipment but Eq really isn't 1:1 with other fittings slots so that's an entire mess of it's own). What you had when you normized fittings this was was Logi coming out with a roughly proximate attribute profile but at the cost of higher ISK and SP investment per fitting.
So, balanced, in a sense, but there were flaws. 1) Logi had more equipment, that costs even more ISK and SP to field and put a heavy strain on fittings, but it was still a possible advantage. 2) Assault, higher base stats means greater raw gains from many skill buffs **** Roughly balanced at this point, numbers could be tweaked to bring it in line but it's at least conceptually workable
However then we get to 3) Attribute balance; simple fact is that not all mechanical assets of a frame are worth the same amount, or worth the same in any given context. What this means in simple terms is that even though it cost more to do so the logistics suits ability to heavily specialize into one or two attributes via mods outperformed the assault suits native all around effectiveness.
This was then further exacerbated by the flawed role and race buffs (Extender efficiency anyone?) To further muddle the waters, CCP started fiddling with individual numbers outside of a cohesive context tossing a systemic refinement out the window.
Long story short (too late) aside from the issues with how medium frames balance against other frame types the internal balance is a mess. A logistics suit geared for support costs more (both SP and ISK) while having a lower average eHP and DPS than it's racial Assault counterpart, meanwhile that same Assault fitting will often be outperformed by a Logistics fit modded to be a pure slayer. End result being that both medium frames are sup-optimal at their basic roles, and underwhelming in general.
A lot of the angst from players elsewhere in the forums regarding scouts (and honestly heavies to an extent as well) is a simple misunderstanding of context. They're trying to take the deeply flawed medium frames and use those as a baseline for comparison.
Right now the medium frames aren't balanced between each other (even within their roles there are disparities between the races), they aren't balanced against the other frames out there and they aren't scaled within 'risk vs reward'. It's a mess and it's no wonder RinTinTin is looking at doing some complete overhauls before things are in working order.
0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2249
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Posted - 2014.06.05 22:53:00 -
[15000] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:I would like to say that the Min Scout is fine is PC.
Just went like 15-4 in PC
But it was against Phoenix Fed.....
Not sure if that counts....
Here is the fit:
2x Complex Shield 1x Complex Damage Mod
Duvolle Ishnoks C-7 Flux
F/45 RE ADV Cloak
2x Damp 1x Enhanced Ferro
Did surprisingly well. The extra armor helped out a lot IMO Sold to the nice man in the rust Yep, that does it, I'm doomed (or, you know, whatever lol) Minja it is
Now we'll see if I can claw my way into being effective (somehow I think my current skill set, SP notwithstanding, is going to need upgrades regardless of fitting).
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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