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bogeyman m
Minmatar Republic
420
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Posted - 2014.10.01 03:31:00 -
[661] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:i didn't notice the spreadsheet. just looked it over. equipment seems ok but the cost reduction on the repair tool isn't enough in my opinion. its the single most expensive piece of equipment a logi can carry yet using it leaves you open do death. i think 40% off or bringing the cost in line with other active equipment would mean more players using the best over the worst to keep costs down That brings up a very good point, and one which I must sheepishly admit I overlooked in the spreadsheet, that being the cost comparison between pieces of equipment. Heretofore I have not touched the comparative costs of equipment but would like to open the floor for that now. I wish to invite everyone to comment on the relative cost and balance within the equipment line, which mods cost too much PG or CPU, which cost too little, where are the perceived gaps between value and function? This is good information to include, mercs I'd like your input. Cheers, Cross
Normalizing the prices of like tiered equipment is a good idea. After that, raising or lowering the costs to appropriate levels can be accomplished.
Not a fully baked idea, but IF the costs were high enough, a BOGO program could be implemented for Logis where if one piece of (non-EWAR) eq was purchased, two would be installed on the suit. (Maybe do a similar bonus for Assaults with light weapons, or for Scouts with cloaks?) This would not prevent other roles from running eq (as it would have no impact on fitting capabilities), but would add financial incentives for focusing more on the default role - ie Logis as support/medics rather than slayers.
Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
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TechMechMeds
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
6095
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Posted - 2014.10.01 11:49:00 -
[662] - Quote
One thing that seriously needs fixing is the awful, clunky repair tool animations and lock on. It would also be nice to be able to use L1 and R1 to lock and unlock different targets.
Maybe speeding the animation up would fix it.
Another thing that could be considered is getting kill assists when repairing other people/vehicles.
Ok.........now say that in quif.
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Booby Tuesdays
Tuesdays With Boobies
859
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Posted - 2014.10.01 14:21:00 -
[663] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
My question remains the same however, if under the current status of the game those support needs can be readily met without the presence of a logistics fame in squad what incentives can make said frame of adequate value to field?
Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. Even a full squad with basic and advanced equipment wouldn't be as effective as a squad with a single Logi. This concept works in theory.
What about when a Commando, a suit made for running alone, can only carry basic or advanced equipment, even on a Proto suit. I can barely fit Proto rep hives on my Min Commando currently, while using LP store Specialist weapons, and a mix of Proto and Adv modules. With this new concept of equipment, I would just need to spawn my Logi suit first, drop some goodies, and then switch to my Commando with inferior equipment to defend an objective. Not a huge deal, but aren't we trying to get away from that playstyle? Drop and swap suits playstyle? Or should that be a thing, since I am specced into both, should I not be able to reap the benefits of both? How about the Scout uplink runner that plays a key tactical role as well?
If we are making equipment even worse, except in a Logi's hands, shouldn't each Logi then get a boost to all equipment? What is the point of running Logi if one or more of your equipment is just as garbage as a non-logi squadmates? That brings us back around to the whole, "a blanket buff to all equipment for Logis just homogenizes the role too much" argument that I agree with. If we give a blanket buff, then how do we differentiate between the races again?
I agree with the logic of the equipment changes in theory, I just am failing to see how they will work in practice... Perhaps I need more coffee. Mmmm... Coffee.... 
Day One Proto Minmatar Commando.
A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5400
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Posted - 2014.10.01 14:41:00 -
[664] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side.
To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, uber scans, and superior equipment?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Booby Tuesdays
Tuesdays With Boobies
860
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Posted - 2014.10.01 15:18:00 -
[665] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side.
To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, and vastly superior equipment?
To play devil's advocate, would that be any worse than the current full squads of Assault/Logi Scouts we have today?
Your point brings up the very reason I am tentative at giving Logis much of an eHP buff, and instead would rather them be self repping machines. Point any high alpha weapon at a Logi, +50, but If that Logi makes it to cover, or their teammates jump into the fray, that Logi could be back to form fairly quickly.
Day One Proto Minmatar Commando.
A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5403
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Posted - 2014.10.01 15:42:00 -
[666] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side.
To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, and vastly superior equipment? To play devil's advocate, would that be any worse than the current full squads of Assault/Logi Scouts we have today? Your point brings up the very reason I am tentative at giving Logis much of an eHP buff, and instead would rather them be self repping machines. Point any high alpha weapon at a Logi, +50, but If that Logi makes it to cover, or their teammates jump into the fray, that Logi could be back to form fairly quickly.
If Rattati pulled the numbers, I'm confident he'd find that "Logi Scouts" are a rarity; very few Scouts run needles and fewer still run rep tools. As for Assault Scouts, I believe that their popularity has been in decline in the wake of Assaults being made better ass-kickers. In my opinion, a better question is ...
If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?
PS: I like your corp name by the way. A great book :-)
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3195
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Posted - 2014.10.01 15:48:00 -
[667] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
In my opinion, a better question is ...
If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?
PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-)
Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Booby Tuesdays
Tuesdays With Boobies
861
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Posted - 2014.10.01 16:02:00 -
[668] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
In my opinion, a better question is ...
If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?
PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-)
Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment?
I think the concern here is if Logis get a boost to eHP, as well as a better fitting bonus, that leaves more room for tank and gank modules, as well as having the best equipment. This was the initial reason Logis were the go to suit for a bit.
Day One Proto Minmatar Commando.
A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
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Kalante Schiffer
YOU GOT OWNED BY A CHRONIC FAPPER
764
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Posted - 2014.10.01 16:03:00 -
[669] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side.
To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, and vastly superior equipment? To play devil's advocate, would that be any worse than the current full squads of Assault/Logi Scouts we have today? Your point brings up the very reason I am tentative at giving Logis much of an eHP buff, and instead would rather them be self repping machines. Point any high alpha weapon at a Logi, +50, but If that Logi makes it to cover, or their teammates jump into the fray, that Logi could be back to form fairly quickly. If Rattati pulled the numbers, I'm confident he'd find that "Logi Scouts" are a rarity; very few Scouts run needles and fewer still run rep tools. As for Assault Scouts, I believe that their popularity has been in decline in the wake of Assaults being made better ass-kickers. In my opinion, a better question is ... If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?PS: I like your corp name by the way. A great book :-) lol assaults made better ass kickers, maybe at a low level but at a high level.. barely. Usually when i kill some one trying to be a wannabe assault slayer they switch back to heavy. Barely a few can wear an assault suit.
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Booby Tuesdays
Tuesdays With Boobies
861
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Posted - 2014.10.01 16:03:00 -
[670] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
PS: I like your corp name by the way. A great book :-)
Haha, yeah. You can't go to Detroit Public Schools and not be forced to read it. It still is a good book for sure. He has got a little preachy in his old age, but still a good writer.
Day One Proto Minmatar Commando.
A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3195
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Posted - 2014.10.01 16:10:00 -
[671] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
In my opinion, a better question is ...
If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?
PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-)
Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I think the concern here is if Logis get a boost to eHP, as well as a better fitting bonus, that leaves more room for tank and gank modules, as well as having the best equipment. This was the initial reason Logis were the go to suit for a bit.
I think for me personally what I'd like to see is the Logi suit having inferior resources compared to the Assault, but a really kickass equipment reduction bonuses so that they don't sacrifice much to put the equipment on, but even if they skip the equipment, they can't exceed the tank/gank of the Assault.
Honestly base HP makes a difference yes, but since base HP is maintained through all tiers, the real measure of defense is going to be in what modules they can fit. So in terms of having similar base HP between Assault and Logi, I think that's fine. It's more a matter of how the resource balance lands and how that affects what they can fit on it.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5406
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Posted - 2014.10.01 16:45:00 -
[672] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
In my opinion, a better question is ...
If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?
Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment?
I see this proposal as having three parts:
Part A involves direct buffs to Logi base statistics.
Part B involves improvements to Logi gear-based bonuses.
Part C involves changes to EQ which will impact all classes.
I suspect that ...
... passing A or B would likely be fine; some risk of undercorrection.
... passing A and B would likely be fine; some risk of overcorrection.
... passing C would set into motion unknowns; risk of introducing new imbalance.
... passing A,B,C would likely be too much; high risk of Logi out-assaulting Assault.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3195
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 16:55:00 -
[673] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I see this proposal as having three parts:
Part A involves direct buffs to Logi base statistics.
Part B involves improvements to Logi gear-based bonuses.
Part C involves changes to EQ which will impact all classes.
I suspect that ...
... passing A or B would likely be fine; some risk of undercorrection.
... passing A and B would likely be fine; some risk of overcorrection.
... passing C would set into motion unknowns; risk of introducing new imbalance.
... passing A,B,C would likely be too much; high risk of Logi out-assaulting Assault.
Then go with A & B and see how it goes?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2996
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Posted - 2014.10.01 18:18:00 -
[674] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
My question remains the same however, if under the current status of the game those support needs can be readily met without the presence of a logistics fame in squad what incentives can make said frame of adequate value to field?
Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side. Even a full squad with basic and advanced equipment wouldn't be as effective as a squad with a single Logi. This concept works in theory. What about when a Commando, a suit made for running alone, can only carry basic or advanced equipment, even on a Proto suit. I can barely fit Proto rep hives on my Min Commando currently, while using LP store Specialist weapons, and a mix of Proto and Adv modules. With this new concept of equipment, I would just need to spawn my Logi suit first, drop some goodies, and then switch to my Commando with inferior equipment to defend an objective. Not a huge deal, but aren't we trying to get away from that playstyle? Drop and swap suits playstyle? Or should that be a thing, since I am specced into both, should I not be able to reap the benefits of both? How about the Scout uplink runner that plays a key tactical role as well?
Drop and swap would be diminished under the proposal due to the reduction in payload per deployed item (clusters in the case of nanohives). Being specced into more than one suit already does not grant the benefits of both suits simultaneously. The advantage there is being able to adapt to the situation, not having every tool for use all at once. I have proto sentential and proto min scout but that does not give my assault or logi more eHP nor faster hacking speed. Currently the only role that can more directly be filled by a quick swap to another suit is support logistics and that undercuts the idea of those actions being legitimately the focus for role.
Everyone wants to be self-sufficient, if given the option for 2 Light Weapons which suit would not take it? They grant flexibility and more ability to run solo.
If given the option for Sentinel eHP, who would not take it? they can take more punishment and run solo better.
If given scout eWar potential or mobility, who would not take it? They can define the terms of their engagements and thus run solo more.
When given more HP and fittings options, the Assaults certainly took it. It allows them to further hone their dps and survivability and thus run solo more.
Even when people choose to run as a squad they want to be as self sufficient as possible, which is totally understandable, but where is the role for a support class in a world where ever other role sustains all their optimal needs (because running proto gear is totally a question of being optimal) by themselves?
I have asked this question before and will reiterate it now;
Does it damage the role of the commando not to have prototype repair hives at the current fitting costs?
Does the role of the commando require that level of reps, and that they be provided without external support or it loses its specialist niche?
Does the Thales sniper (be that in a Gal Sent, CalMannod, or Scout) need prototype resupply hives at the current fittings cost without any external team support? Would running advanced or paying more in CPU/PG damage his role?
Does the infiltration uplink scout require prototype uplinks at the present fittings cost to do his job? Does that at most 4.4 sec difference in spawn time for his squad truly make him in-viable?
I run a bit of everything but I do not claim to be an expert in everything by any means, why is why I ask these questions. If there is specific reason why other roles need to have proto equipment at the present costs, and need to have it not come from a logi but from themselves otherwise they lose their specialist role then please elaborate those reasons.
Again, not rhetorical, I am actually asking these questions and honestly seeking answers.
Why and in what cases is it needful to other specialist roles to have direct (i.e. non-logi) use of prototype support equipment at the present CPU/PG costs?
Followup question, in those cases where it is needful, what value does a dedicated support specialist offer to that other role which that role cannot directly supply for themselves?
continued in pt2
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
3338
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Posted - 2014.10.01 18:39:00 -
[675] - Quote
Commando doesn't sufer not having proto gear.
It suffers because you cannot fit prox mines or REs and have to use a needle or ep gun. Lack of optuons after solid module and weapon fit |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5413
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 18:46:00 -
[676] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:... If there is specific reason why other roles need to have proto equipment at the present costs, and need to have it not come from a logi but from themselves otherwise they lose their specialist role then please elaborate those reasons.
Fit for slaying, the new-and-improved Logi will be nearly as good as the Assault at frontline asskicking. Give that Logi superior gear -- while subtracting from everyone else's -- and we likely tilt the scale in their favor. Factor in squad synergy, and we have a strong possibility that Nyain San will be running six of these at a time.
I can think of no reason why they wouldn't:
Similar tank. Similar gank. Superior gear. Superior squadplay.
If we want a guaranteed and valuable, Logi-exclusive support function, why not simply make needles and reppers infeasible to run on other fits? In addition, of course, to the base stat and bonus improvements.
Edit: I believe I've contributed my two cents and now run risk of repeating myself ... all on a subject that I know little about :-). I take my leave. Thank you again, Cross, for permitting my participation. o7
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2998
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Posted - 2014.10.01 18:53:00 -
[677] - Quote
pt 2
Booby Tuesdays wrote:If we are making equipment even worse, except in a Logi's hands, shouldn't each Logi then get a boost to all equipment? What is the point of running Logi if one or more of your equipment is just as garbage as a non-logi squadmates? That brings us back around to the whole, "a blanket buff to all equipment for Logis just homogenizes the role too much" argument that I agree with. If we give a blanket buff, then how do we differentiate between the races again? I agree with the logic of the equipment changes in theory, I just am failing to see how they will work in practice... Perhaps I need more coffee. Mmmm... Coffee....
Making equipment prototype equipment a valuable premium (is this not what prototype gear is/was slated to be prior to the PC passive ISK faucet?) even without added skill buffs is part of the point. If anything below prototype is "garbage" then that is an issue that needs to be addressed in its own right. ADV RR, CR, ScR, FG, HMG, NK, Bolt Pistols, etc. kill people all the time during my matches if it is worthless (i.e. of insufficient added value to be worth fitting) to run a piece of equipment that is below prototype then equipment needs a statistical overhaul.
But even if that were (or is) the case that would substantiate the notion that a logi running proto without racial buffs to enhance it further (just role buffs to enhance ability to fit it) would then have more of a defined specialist role when compared to the current baselines. So in my view it does not correlate to a racially homogenizing blanket buff to all equipment.
However let us examine that notion, how would one effectively apply such a buff in a meaningful way?
Even cutting and pasting every current racial buff on to every logi frame (a very heavy wide spectrum change) would not really attain substantially positive results. These buffs already exist and they do not drive players commonly use those support roles through an entire match. Would such a sweeping buff cause the skills be used more? Sure, because now the Gal who already fits an uplink would just have that uplink work a bit better, now the Amarr who has a repair tool would get a little more function out of it etc.
So buff the effect of the racial bonuses, don't alter fittings right?
Well that brings the question of how.
Uplinks - Is it more common to have a proto uplink destroyed or to burn through all 25-25 of its spawns? And spawn in time is capped at 3 sec, so how would further buffing this racial work?
Nanohives - Much like above, is it more common to have them destroyed or fully consumed? Consumption happens faster than uplinks especially if people are spamming nades/REs or using repper hives. We could increase the cluster bonus still further, but in a world where those who want them have proto hives which do essentially the same thing just for not quite as long (and don't need them at all if they die) is that extra helping of hives going to create a meaningful role/purpose on the field? Meaningful enough that people will ask for/seek out the use of that fit as they do with other non-support roles currently?
Scanners - The scanning system is very absolute right now, you win or you lose there isn't really an in between. With that in mind we cannot further buff scan precision. We could buff range perhaps, or angle, but too much of those moves us back toward the 360 spin scans which were nefed out of existence. We could further buff duration, this would add some chance to earn more WP at least, but even if we buffed all of these there would still be higher precision 360 degree passive scans, so how often is this fit going to be specifically valuable or sought out compared to those passives?
Repair Tool - Currently most viable, and ironically holds the greatest possible room for buffs. If buffed heavily this could reach the level where it can fully counter a single source of incoming fire (non-alpha of course) making it more like the reps in EVE. This is a notion I have presented on and off since closed beta as a possible alternative to the current system/troubles, but it has never gained much traction or even comment.
In short, how does one make support roles better at using equipment to an extent where other players will want them on the field (i.e. they will have a meaningful role to fill) in the current game state while not making their use of equipment brokenly overpowered?
(Again, actual questions, not rhetorical).
0.02 ISK
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3197
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 19:02:00 -
[678] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote: Thank you again Cross, Pokey, Tuesday, others for permitting my participation. o7
I've always appreciated your input, mostly because you're capable of disagreeing without being an ass about it, which is *gasp* constructive criticism! A skill many lack but I wish more had.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2999
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Posted - 2014.10.01 19:11:00 -
[679] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:... If there is specific reason why other roles need to have proto equipment at the present costs, and need to have it not come from a logi but from themselves otherwise they lose their specialist role then please elaborate those reasons.
Fit for slaying, the new-and-improved Logi will be nearly as good as the Assault at frontline asskicking. Give that Logi superior gear -- while subtracting from everyone else's -- and we likely tilt the scale in their favor. Factor in squad synergy, and we have a strong possibility that Nyain San will be running six of these at a time.
One of the key aspects of the proposal was trying to make sure "fit for slaying" in any comparable way to Assaults, Commandos et al was not one of the effects. "Fit for getting to cover in a hot zone" is more the aim, which requires more survivability than is currently present but put a Scrambler on the Amarr Assault and the Amarr Logi (with mirrored loadouts) and the Assault uses it better hands down, same story with the Commando. These changes should not, if done properly, make the logistics frames "an assault with a couple extra equipment slots" and avoiding that is part of the reason for having this conversation, making sure other roles are not infringed upon.
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I can think of no reason why they wouldn't:
Similar tank. Similar gank. Superior gear. Superior squadplay.
If we want a guaranteed and valuable, Logi-exclusive support function, why not simply make needles and reppers infeasible to run on other fits? In addition, of course, to the proposed base stat and bonus improvements.
I really wish some of my other questions on this front had not gotten lost in the shuffle because I would very much like your feedback on whether prototype uplinks (as are used on your posted fits) are necessary for the infiltrator and exfiltrator roles you describe.
I also remain curious about alternate racial bonuses, as would be needed in light of making logistics rep/revive centric as you suggest. As I posted when you raised this idea prior, I am not opposed to the notion, and in some ways quite like it, but there are some challenges to be overcome if it is to be made viable. Thus far (unless I have missed it) there haven't really been solutions/alternatives proposed to those challenges.
I am not trying to be obtuse, it is simply that if the change I have cobbled together through feedback and study is problematic then I need to know very specifically how/why and may very well need others contributing their thoughts to come up with alternate solutions.
Adipem Nothi wrote:--------------------
I believe I've contributed my two cents and now run risk of repeating myself ... on a subject that I admittedly know very little about :-). I take my leave and defer freely to the experts. Thank you again Cross, Pokey, Tuesday, others for permitting my participation. o7
I hope you swing back this way because, as stated above, there are specific questions I would very much like your input on.
I further hope that my debating an idea is not misconstrued as being closed to the possibility of changing things (ultimately it is not my call anyway, I present the feedback and CCP decides) nor to the notion of alternatives. I simply enjoy both giving and receiving rigorous challenges to ideas in the hopes that the best option will be found.
Regardless thank you for contributing and for doing so in a constructive manner.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2999
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Posted - 2014.10.01 19:15:00 -
[680] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Ok, so what I am gathering is that from this angle of attack is if a squad or solo player wants good equipment, they will need a Logi by their side.
To take this thought one step further ... what might be accomplished by a squad of six Logis each with 1000+ HP, a proto fine rifle, and vastly superior equipment?
This is in part something that I am trying to avoid by normalizing the logistics suit CPU/PG at an average level lower than current standards.
The details of how much is too much are things that I seek to hone in on through feedback in this thread. For while I am not completely incapable of math I am certainly not the most adept mathematician out there by any stretch of the imagination 
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3002
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Posted - 2014.10.01 19:29:00 -
[681] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
In my opinion, a better question is ...
If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?
PS: I like your corp name, by the way. A great book :-)
Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I think the concern here is if Logis get a boost to eHP, as well as a better fitting bonus, that leaves more room for tank and gank modules, as well as having the best equipment. This was the initial reason Logis were the go to suit for a bit.
I apologies for being a bit nit picky here (I kind of hate it when people do that on forums) but for the sake of clearlity this one needs pointed to.
eHP is not the same as HP
HP = Raw value of buffer tank
eHP = Effective Hit Points, and depending on the use case things like mobility, eWar, etc can apply here. Things like HP regeneration and damage reduction certainly do apply here.
The concern over total eHP and dps output is one of the key reasons for the suggested change in equipment fittings values along with the reduction to average logistics base fittings resources (stats on suit).
While I freely admit the specific numbers may need tweaked (again, not the best math guy, hopping feedback here will help find the 'sweet spot' with the numbers) the goal is to give logi more eHP while keeping their total HP well shy of Assaults etc. The increase to HP that is suggested is aimed at being just enough to give the player time to sprint back into cover, because without that the regeneration is functionally meaningless. (These cases are assuming they aren't caught out in a wide open space or caught without any stamina, because in those cases they die).
The better fitting bonus is also a part of the reason for the "big four" cost increase, if the four racially bound pieces of key support equipment cost more then, combined with the reduction to base CPU/PG stats, the increase role bonus nets a mild gain in fittings for most - but not all - support loadouts presuming those fits run full equipment. The net effect on 'slayer' oriented suits, those suits which do not run full equipment loadouts, is a reduction in total fittings available.
Again if the numbers are weak somewhere it is my hope that feedback can help ferret that out and refine them so that they properly support the intent outlined above.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3002
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 19:48:00 -
[682] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
In my opinion, a better question is ...
If this proposal were passed as is, would 6 Slayer Logis out-slay 6 Assaults?
Do you feel that would happen because of the improvement of the Logi's bonus? Or because of the increase in resource cost for equipment? I see this proposal as having three parts: Part A involves direct buffs to Logi base statistics. Part B involves improvements to Logi gear-based bonuses. Part C involves changes to EQ which will impact all classes. In my estimation ... ... passing A or B would likely be fine; some risk of undercorrection. ... passing A and B would likely be fine; some risk of overcorrection. ... passing C would set into motion unknowns; risk of introducing new imbalance. ... passing A,B,C would likely be too much; high risk of Logi out-assaulting Assault.
There's alot of good in this proposal, but there are also many moving parts. Any reason why not to iterate?
Okay so, clearly, I am still catching up on this thread and have only just now read this post. I am noting this because my prior posts will not have taken this breakdown into account, so grain of salt for those.
Alright, on to the main event.
My concern with the absence of "C" is that it may cause a net overbuff to the logistics, that being said if the feeling from players (especially those who spend more time in roles outside the support logi) is that we should push pause on "C" (the change to fittings cost of "the big four") then I am not opposed to tabling that aspect until we see how the other aspects play out. I was simply hesitant to do so because of the rife community concern over "slayer logi".
The second aspect of "C" was to provide a partial address (along with other measures) to the frequent cries from the community for reduction of spam, particularly as it pertains to uplinks. Since uplinks are vital to the function of an entire race within the logistics line most proposals to limit their use are functionally crippling to a substantial sub-set of support logi. As such the notion was that making uplinks universally harder to fit, and thus deploy, would be a better solution than the many recurring proposals which take much harder line stances regarding limitations.
The same is generally true for nanohives though to a lessor degree.
The rep tool is already preeminent among logi buffs/uses at present so a "stealth buff" to it by scaling up costs on hives/links but not the repper seemed ill advised and the active scanner followed suit for more unified internal class balance / to deepen the specialist role of each race.
To reiterate, I am not opposed to suspending this CPU/PG increase aspect until after the other changes are in game and we see where they fall, but I would still advocate this much more fully/actively than the majority of other "anti-spam" proposals that I have read thus far.
A & B are pretty spot on assessments I would say, with a couple of touch ups.
A is a net increase to base stats, the decrease to average base CPU/PG should not be overlooked.
B while a buff is aimed at increased diversity of applicable skills (hopefully while avoiding homogenizing the races).
I note these two things not because the quoted descriptions are inaccurate, but rather to clearly specificy the goals these changes are aimed at, since feedback and refinement are meant to be ongoing at this juncture.
Thanks again for your participation.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3002
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 19:50:00 -
[683] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Commando doesn't sufer not having proto gear.
It suffers because you cannot fit prox mines or REs and have to use a needle or ep gun. Lack of optuons after solid module and weapon fit
What are the fitting constraints (CPU or PG) in each case and by how much? Addressing that completely is likely biting off more than I can chew all at once but I would like to continue to educate myself more deeply.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3201
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Posted - 2014.10.01 19:50:00 -
[684] - Quote
If you're concerned about an overbuff without C you could consider buffing the Logi bonus by what the effective buff would be had C happened, though that does cause issues with the items that would have been unaffected by C...
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3002
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 20:10:00 -
[685] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:If you're concerned about an overbuff without C you could consider buffing the Logi bonus by what the effective buff would be had C happened, though that does cause issues with the items that would have been unaffected by C...
And it is that last thing which is a problem, well the main one.
When figuring this out the following aspects were considered
- Changes to base PG/CPU
- Net loss of PG/CPU when Level 5 skills are considered (every point of base also causes a loss of the amount gained through skills)
- Margin between "full support" (every slot filled) and "full slayer" (zero slots filled) logistics frames. As has been noted without requiring the equipment slots be filled for a viable fit there is very little which can be done to eliminate this gap completely, however reducing the base PG/CPU while increasing the bonus can narrow the margin.
- Current equipment fittings costs (viewed in full sets, as well as current theoretical minimums and maximums - all that "no one would actually run this" stuff just to establish outliers)
Availability and cost of equipment also, unsurprisingly, has implications for the balance of equipment related skill buffs (the Demolitions Skill/Proxy/RE/Minmatar in Method #3 interaction is a highlight of that).
Simply put, scaling A & B not to include C will likely alter them substantially enough that they would no longer be very indicative of how things might function with or without a C type aspect present.
Considering the concerns raised in this thread however I am currently (more feedback please!) leaning toward a "Apply A & B with the understanding that further refinements and the possible addition of C are pending as and if needed".
I hate the possible FotM risk, but I would rather risk a temporary flash of than than either dismiss feedback or discard iterative balance and just start "shooting in the dark" instead.
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4112
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Posted - 2014.10.01 22:04:00 -
[686] - Quote
I am certainly well behind on this discussion. I like most of what I see on Cross' spreadsheet. After looking at that and reading the subsequent replies, these are my initial thoughts:
1) Just like Pokey, I like my proposed change to the EQ bonuses best, the global one. But, I think 50% is actually too high, the original proposal was for roughly 30%, to avoid over-homogenizing the suits, which is the most valid criticism of the idea.
Alternately, there was another proposal (arkena/kirk, I believe) to do partial bonuses. I've come around to liking that one a lot. So, instead of, for example, the Amarr logi getting 50% (or 30%) of the current Minmatar bonus, it would get maybe 75% of half the bonus. So, Minmatar would get 10% to range and 5% to repair rate, and Amarr would get no bonus for range, and 3% to rate. Caldari gets 7% to range and no bonus to rate. Gallente either gets the same as Amarr, or maybe we give them a little of both.
2) I agree that the concerns about Slayer logis are rather silly at this point, and hardly see how increasing the Amarr logi suits PG by 3% (as proposed, which lets not forget, is coupled with a nerf to CPU) is suddenly going to make it some amazing offensive machine, even if you did double the fitting bonus.
As it stands now I simply can't fit both good equipment and an Amarr weapon on the suit because the PG is pathetic. You're also doing it wrong if you are trying to run slayer on an Amarr logi suit with a laz0r weapon (admittedly, the Amarr assault is the gold standard for assaults, no pun intended).
Regardless, if people are really that concerned about this, you could just make the fitting bonus even higher and not buff the base fitting of the suits at all. Not sure that's the most beneficial method for lower SP players, however.
(Seriously though, the Amarr PG is sad and needs to be adjusted, I have so many fits with 0 PG and at least 10CPU left over it's not even funny... and that's when not running Amarr weapons)
3) The idea of equipment having the same total number of spawns/clusters spread out among more, "smaller" units is interesting but I think it works better for nanohives (actually would make them a much more useful and practical item) than uplinks. At the very least you would need to keep 1 uplink variant with current functionality that could be used as fallback positions otherwise you might find it too easy to get redlined as teams will not have anywhere left to spawn when pushed back from the front lines where the uplinks will presumably be.
4) I'm on the fence about simultaneously increasing fitting costs of equipment.
On one hand, I want to say to the non-logis (not you specifically shotty, I swear) "**** off, isn't this what you wanted, less spam, right? Well, now you get it, dumbass. Have fun trudging back from the MCC or finding some ammo. Be careful what you f*cking ask for!"
Then again, there are legit reasons for other classes to use equipment and maybe we should scale the increase. Maybe just buffing the logi fitting bonus alone is sufficient.
But I think I still have to go with Cross in that I see zero problem with non-logis's needing to downgrade their equipment. To anyone who disagrees, I'll pose the same question as Cross. If other classes can use the same equipment in a totally self-sufficient way, why does the logi suit need to exist? You may like using the equipment, see a valid tactical reason for your particular suit class to need it, but in a global sense, why does a squad, much less an organized PC team, need a logi if they can easily spread equipment out amongst others?
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3204
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 22:13:00 -
[687] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Just like Pokey, I like my proposed change to the EQ bonuses best, the global one. But, I think 50% is actually too high, the original proposal was for roughly 30%, to avoid over-homogenizing the suits, which is the most valid criticism of the idea.
To be fair, I think what Cross is going for with the increase to fitting is that it would make it such that only Logis can easily fit Proto Equipment, which in turns makes them better at using all equipment than any other role. So in effect, the resource reduction bonus is actually an equipment buff for all equipment, simply because it's able to use a higher tier than what you could use otherwise.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3008
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 22:23:00 -
[688] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Just like Pokey, I like my proposed change to the EQ bonuses best, the global one. But, I think 50% is actually too high, the original proposal was for roughly 30%, to avoid over-homogenizing the suits, which is the most valid criticism of the idea. To be fair, I think what Cross is going for with the increase to fitting is that it would make it such that only Logis can easily fit Proto Equipment, which in turns makes them better at using all equipment than any other role. So in effect, the resource reduction bonus is actually an equipment buff for all equipment, simply because it's able to use a higher tier than what you could use otherwise.
You are correct, one aspect/goal of that change is to enhance the specialized value of the support niche without overbuffing the specific racial skills or removing the diversity they instill.
The role bonus should be exactly that.
Assaults get a discount to Light Weapons, Sidearms, and Grenades
Scouts get a discount to Cloaks
Commandos get a reload speed bonus (maximizing their ability to capitalize on those two Light Weapons)
Sentinels get Damage Resistance and a discount to Heavy Weapons
Logistics get a discount to Equipment (but if the other roles can already run the proto equipment they need all the time then...)
^That was the general thought process behind that specific sub-aspect of the proposed alteration to fittings values on "the big four" (i.e. the four primary pieces of support equipment as defined by CCPs assigning them - 1 each - to the logistics suits by race).
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3365
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 23:39:00 -
[689] - Quote
After looking at your spreadsheet, I see nothing that would in any way overpower the class, but there are a few things I disagree with.
While I understand your logic behind giving Minmatar/Caldari a shield transporter bonus if it were implemented, it makes no real sense why the Amarr would have a bonus to Minmatar equipment while the Minmatar themselves have no bonus to their own equipment. I think that Method 3 is really a no-go.
Method 1, as many other people have said, really reeks of homogenization.
Method 2 is definitely my favorite, but the Tertiary bonuses in Method 2 don't make sense to me. They are all bonuses to the equipment of the primary enemy of the logi's race. The Amarr, lore-wise, wouldn't want a bonus to Minmatar equipment, so on and so forth. The tertiary bonus should be the ally of the enemy's equipment, for example, a bonus to nanohives for the Minmatar, a bonus to scanners for the Amarr, a bonus to uplinks for the Gallente, and a bonus to the rep tool for the Caldari.
Those were just my personal opinion disagreements, but now I'd like to point out a few math discrepancies.
I have to point out that if you decrease remote explosive damage by 25%, you will need to make the logi bonus give a 33.33% increase in order to keep the damage the same. Alternatively, you could decrease the remote damage by 20%, and the 25% logi increase will keep it at where it is currently.
The amounts of eHP each logi is getting is the same, 30 in one stat and 50 in another for a total of 80 for each logi, and that's all well and good, but you have to consider that the Amarr logi has the most eHP, and should get the biggest increase, while the Minmatar should get a smaller increase to give the same percentages.
If we use the Caldari and Gallente as the template, they are getting a ~28% increase to their dominant stat and a ~33% increase to their recessive stat. So applying that to the Amarr and Minmatar, the Amarr should get +28% to their armor, which would make it +60 armor instead of +50(not a big difference, but CCP has specifically set up health to speed ratios, and you have to increase by percentages rather than set amounts if you want to keep the ratios the same) and the Minmatar would get +40 armor instead of +50.
But having said all that, I'm really just nitpicking, it's a solid proposal.
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3205
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 23:46:00 -
[690] - Quote
Thinking more on it I wouldn't mind Method 2 if the concept of making Repair Tools a Role Bonus rather than a Min Bonus was brought over from Method 3.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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