| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2976
   |
Posted - 2014.09.30 19:00:00 -
[631] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Cross Atu wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:maybe ccp should consider a twist on other games resupply and repair mechanics which do work and do not suffer the same problems as what dust equipment does but with a dust twist.
take hives. why can't it be a simple throw a box of ammo down or med pack or in dusts case a small hive which quickly depletes. for the logi this could mean carrying an endless supply of hives which restock over time completely ruling out spam and replacing strategic placement of equipment which cannot move with the flow of battle with more effective fast clearing and purposeful deployments which can.
the alternative is make them an active piece of equipment which can go with the logi and restock players within a radius.
currently there is only 2 piece of equipment that require actual contact with another player and they are the repair tool and the needle. everything else doesn't require any contact with anyone. they can be used from anywhere at any time. for a logi that is supposed to be supporting the squad or team to have to leave all its equipment behind every time you move is wrong. hives and uplinks are not situational equipment. they are the life blood of any fight. without either the fight is lost.
a simple thing like this would remove all spam from the game aside from uplinks. allow logis to essentially take all their equipment with them and use it in a more directed way rather than a throw it down and then see who needs it.
this, needle, repair tool,scanner and the logibro never needs to leave his squad mates except to respawn.
with carefully set timers and ammo counts per deployment and limits on how many deployed and how many can be used at one time this could increase the overall effectiveness of logis and bring more purpose to their role. This style of game play is what the spreadsheet hopes to move things more towards. I acknowledge there are certain departures from the spreadsheet and what you describe however a full alteration of function as opposed to a change in numeric stats as listed in the sheets proposal, will come with a much higher dev hour cost and I am not confident it can be done without a UI update. While hives reimagined as an active module with a cooldown certainly have virtues worth discussing I think that is more of a Legion change then a Dust one tech wise. How do you think the current proposal holds up to your designs on the subject, even if it faces some obvious constraints? Nooooooooooooooooooo. in legion then lol.
Yeah, I mean I'd be happy to discuss the implications of wider changes like this if or when we get consistent client patches back into Dust but that is all revenue/business based and outside of my sphere as a CPM, so I'm not waiting for it, just working with what's on the table now 
Thank you for this, totally cracked me up 
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3188
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 19:04:00 -
[632] - Quote
Cross, I'll mirror some of our conversation points here for the sake of discussion.
- +1HP/s Armor Repair for all Logi suits -
As more time has gone on, this feels like a no brainer. With rare exception, almost every suit in Dust relies on its armor to some degree, and I've shied away from shield dropsuits because of that fact, simply because I dont want to waste a low slot just to have any form of armor regen. I think this would be a good idea for all dropsuits, not just logis.
- Stamina Buff -
Stamina Buff is awesome. It doesn't really add much to instantaneous combat effectiveness like Sprint Speed does, but it still allows the Logi to keep pace with other units in the long run so it can provide support without slowing the squad down too much.
- Scans -
I won't claim to be an expert in EWAR, but I think giving the Logi's a little bit more of an edge over other suits (sans Scouts) is reasonable. It means that can still provide limited scanning/dampening in a pinch when a Scout is unavailable. It's a mild buff, but I think it gives the Logis another partial role which isn't a bad thing.
- Skill Bonus Rework -
Not a huge fan of Method 1, as I think it makes each logi feel less unique and too homogenized. Each Logi should feel useful, but also unique. We need to find a middle ground between "Good at only one thing" and "Good at everything, just like everyone else."
Method 2 is more reasonable, I think it gives the Logi more flexibility in how it plays while still maintaining a decent amount of individuality.
I'm obviously biased to Method 3 since I was the one that initially proposed it haha. I feel that the act of repping should be a primary focus for all Logistics, and as such they should all receive a bonus to it. Ideally I'd like a Shield Repair Bonus for Caldari and Minmatar, and an Armor Bonus for Gallente and Amarr, but if only armor reps are possible a blanket bonus for all Logis is fine. Minmatar would then of course get a replacement bonus such as the remotes/proxies to really hammer in that Logistics role of "Indirect Combat Support".
- Equipment Cost -
Big fan of making it harder for non-logi roles to fulfill the logi role *glares at scouts*. From the start I've felt the CPU/PG reduction on the Logi was too damn low, so increasing that makes sense. Also increasing the PG/CPU of the equipment, but by a lesser amount, means that the Logi is still seeing a net decrease in cost of what....16%-ish? While making it harder for non-Logi roles to equip top tier equipment, thus increasing the overall value of the Logistics suit in the squad.
The best bit about this is you've increased the fitting potential of the Logi but for equipment only. So even if they fit zero equipment, this change doesn't increase their defense/offense.
Overall pretty solid proposal. I didn't dig into the nitty gritty details about the changes to the base CPU/PG and how that affects fits overall, so I can't comment much on that. Even so, good stuff all around.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2979
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 19:10:00 -
[633] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:i didn't notice the spreadsheet. just looked it over. equipment seems ok but the cost reduction on the repair tool isn't enough in my opinion. its the single most expensive piece of equipment a logi can carry yet using it leaves you open do death. i think 40% off or bringing the cost in line with other active equipment would mean more players using the best over the worst to keep costs down
That brings up a very good point, and one which I must sheepishly admit I overlooked in the spreadsheet, that being the cost comparison between pieces of equipment.
Heretofore I have not touched the comparative costs of equipment but would like to open the floor for that now.
I wish to invite everyone to comment on the relative cost and balance within the equipment line, which mods cost too much PG or CPU, which cost too little, where are the perceived gaps between value and function?
This is good information to include, mercs I'd like your input.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5386
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 19:20:00 -
[634] - Quote
@ Cross
I'm really liking this spreadsheet; solid content, superb presentation. o7
A few requests for clarification:
On Proximity Mines - In addition to the proposed increase in carrying capacity, the Demolitions Skill change appears to apply an unmitigated +25% to damage. Is this intentional?
On Remote Explosives - On what grounds are we extending RE arming sequence again? What specific length in delay do you intend to propose?
On Deployables Reimagined - Assuming this concept were implemented, roughly how many charge sniper rifle rounds would one compact nanohive dispense? M1 Locus grenades?
On +25% to EQ PG/CPU - From a Scout's POV, this tax will make it tough to fit any EQ of value alongside a cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will especially impact lower level Scouts who have a hard time fitting anything alongside a cloak. Is this intentional? And if so, why?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Booby Tuesdays
Tuesdays With Boobies
854
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 19:33:00 -
[635] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Replies in order, and also thanks for the feedback looking forward to the in depth post to come  Thanks, vote for method 2 noted - this is one key area I really hope to get a lot of feedback on.
The main reason I prefer this method is for the extra buffs per racial suit. This allows each suit to be better with equipment, but still maintain some semblance of individuality. As much as I would like to have the blanket buff to all equipment, it blurs the reasons for picking one suit over the others. I would even go so far as to add a fourth even smaller bonus to round out the "Big 4" as you put it.
Cross Atu wrote:The difference between deployable and active equipment? Do you mean the change to fittings costs, because that is applied to "the big four" Links, Rep Tool, Hives, Scanner. Please elaborate on this so I know what specifically you're saying here
My bad, by deployable I mean carried. Again, I would split the difference. Something along the lines of 6 carried, 2 active, 10 spawns for links. 6 carried, 2 active, 24 clusters per hive. No instapop, but also more strategic versus drop and forget. The other question is what happens to special equipment such as Gauged Hives? Would you still be able to carry and deploy more of them versus their cheaper counterparts?
Cross Atu wrote:I'm open to the notion of focusing eHP more heavily on regen than raw HP, care to provide some numbers for your ideal breakdown? (everyone else feel free to jump in on this point as well, yea, nay, degrees, whatever  )
I'm all for slight HP buffs, but with max skills Logis will be quite tankable again with those numbers. I think Min at 125, 175. Amarr at 120, 240. Gal at 110, 220. Cal at 220, 110. Each race still gets a buff, just slightly less so to compensate for Core Skills. I would be willing to go even less than this as well. Say a flat 30 HP buff to each suit.
Cross Atu wrote:
Current changes to CPU/PG, role bonus (i.e. equipment fittings cost reduction), and equipment fittings requirement increase are closely interlinked. The current method has the following effects (barring a few edge outliers, as there are a lot of possible fitting configurations.
I love that this big change is also a big incentive to put equipment in every slot. Again, my concern is that the other suits will no longer be able to carry meaningful equipment, especially with the proposed radical change to carried and active equipment. How is a Basic Hive going to help my Min Commando hold a point with my Swarms if it pops after 1 clip? This incentive to place better equipment on your suit would be an indirect nerf to all other suits. I'm all for forcing Logis to fill all their equipment slots, I just don't think these changes are the solution. A step in the right direction, yes.
This brings me to Regen, Speed, and EWAR.
I love that you added the 1HP/s back. Gal still gets more, that's their thing, but even 1HP/s is huge for Logis.
The stamina boosts are nice as well.
Shield recharge timers are fine for depleted, but I would shave off a second for normal delay, as well as buff the amount of regen to match the assaults. They are the same suit basically, why would they have different amounts of shields regenerated? Is it due to the slightly quicker regen timer? To be fair, I would shave a second off of the Assault regen timer as well.
With speed, I would only change movement speed. I would have it match their corresponding racial Assault variant. Again, they are the same suit. I would leave the Assaults with the higher sprint speed however. We are carrying heavy equipment after all!
In regards to EWAR, Logis are a little lacking here as well. I think a flat 45dB for precision and profile would go a long way. Slightly better than Assaults, but not stepping onto a Scout's toes.
The scan range buff is awesome as well.
Anywho, that's my two bits for now. Feel free to praise or ridicule as need be, lol.
Day One Proto Minmatar Commando.
A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2979
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 19:44:00 -
[636] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Cross
I'm really liking this spreadsheet; solid content, superb presentation. o7
Thanks, and thank you again for your efforts with that math tab helping me get my head around the eWar.
Quote:A few requests for clarification:
On Proximity Mines - In addition to the proposed increase in carrying capacity, the Demolitions Skill change appears to apply an unmitigated +25% to damage. Is this intentional?
On Remote Explosives - On what grounds are we extending RE arming sequence again? What specific length in delay do you intend to propose?
On Deployables Reimagined - Assuming this concept were implemented, roughly how many charge sniper rifle rounds would one compact nanohive dispense? M1 Locus grenades?
1. Yes it is a straight up buff to proximity mines, they are usually only useful (barring being combined with REs or other forms of AV) in stacks of 3 or more, considering their playloads (max carried and max deployed) that makes their current use case exceptionally narrow, when was the last time anyone ran proxies in a single equipment slot on a non-depot swap suit?
2. Specific length is undetermined but intended to be minor (would like barber feedback on that actually). As to the lengthening of the arming timer (again for the thread I'll reiterate that it is not the triggering timer) it is due to continued RE prevalence as a Locus Grenade style asset. REs have a diverse set of applications which is as it should be however when they prove to be generally more effective - as a diverse asset - within the role of an existing singular asset, that is problematic.
REs as AV, or as traps, or to drop round a corner to lure the unwary are great applications, but when REs can be used to grenade toss at a group of mercs for multiple fast action kills (as has happened in several of my Delta matches as recently as last night), that seems to be exceeding their use case/role because the only way for grenades to be effective in that context would be to buff them until they are meaningfully better at those attacks than REs and that starts to take us back into the days of contact nade spam.
3. The compact nanohive is a bit of an exception, due to its status as a single carried single deployed item it would remain unchanged by the Deployables Reimagined aspect of the spreadsheet and would retain current functionality. As to how many rounds of charged sniper ammo that current value is, I honestly do not know off the top of my head, same for M1 Locus et al.
Total number of X ammo resupplied under the proposal, the max payload, remains unchanged, it is only the portions per hive in each version that are altered therefore any hive without more than one will remain the same.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2980
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 20:36:00 -
[637] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:
My bad, by deployable I mean carried. Again, I would split the difference. Something along the lines of 6 carried, 2 active, 10 spawns for links. 6 carried, 2 active, 24 clusters per hive. No instapop, but also more strategic versus drop and forget. The other question is what happens to special equipment such as Gauged Hives? Would you still be able to carry and deploy more of them versus their cheaper counterparts?
Gotcah
Yes special cases such as the Gauged Hives would still provide their benefits
Ishukone Gauged Nanohive wrote:Current
- Max Active 3
- Max Carried 4
- Clusters per hive 48
Proposed
- Max Active 3
- Max Carried 16
- Clusters per hive 12
The max active is staying the same as current the current value in all cases as part of the goal of this proposed change is to reduce the "spamability" of deployed equipment.
As to splitting the difference, I am not vehemently opposed to that however I would suggest that, since these are imminently hotfixible values (as I understand it) we start with the smallest/most fact cycle method and scale back as/if needed once support players have had a chance to test them in "real world" contexts and CCP has had the chance to gather metrics.
Does that seem reasonable or am I perhaps missing something?
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I'm all for slight HP buffs, but with max skills Logis will be quite tankable again with those numbers. I think Min at 125, 175. Amarr at 120, 240. Gal at 110, 220. Cal at 220, 110. Each race still gets a buff, just slightly less so to compensate for Core Skills. I would be willing to go even less than this as well. Say a flat 30 HP buff to each suit.
I have tried to focus on minimal wide spectrum buffs rather than more substantial specific buffs in the initial document.
That being said I am not against a more regen heavy ratio with lower buffer values if that is the community preference.
Both are, I believe, viable, so I will be keenly watching the feedback with regards to this aspect.
Cross Atu wrote:
Current changes to CPU/PG, role bonus (i.e. equipment fittings cost reduction), and equipment fittings requirement increase are closely interlinked. The current method has the following effects (barring a few edge outliers, as there are a lot of possible fitting configurations.
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I love that this big change is also a big incentive to put equipment in every slot. Again, my concern is that the other suits will no longer be able to carry meaningful equipment, especially with the proposed radical change to carried and active equipment. How is a Basic Hive going to help my Min Commando hold a point with my Swarms if it pops after 1 clip? This incentive to place better equipment on your suit would be an indirect nerf to all other suits. I'm all for forcing Logis to fill all their equipment slots, I just don't think these changes are the solution. A step in the right direction, yes.
The overall net change for other classes amounts to "can now fit advanced at the prior fittings cost of proto" with respects to the big four. Outside of the big for there is no fittings implication for other classes. I know I am in a sense recovering ground here but is fitting proto rep tool/hive/link/scanner at their current CPU/PG cost really endemically vital to the role of any other class? At some level this is certainly a substantive restriction there is no doubt, however if the logistics role is to be support, and that support is focused primarily on the big four, but the use/need for those items can already be filled (as it is now) even without the racial bonuses from the logistics suits (barring to some extent the repair tool) then what method is there for defining a substantive mechanic for the support role?
If Assaults could damp almost as well as scouts but with better dps and more tank, why run scout?
If Commandos could move almost as fast as Assaults but make their racial light weapons better in each case then why run Assault?
If Assaults, Scouts, and Commandos can run equipment such that it means the majority of their support needs are fulfilled without a logistics frame currently/actively on the field (swap 'n' drop does not count) then why run one?
Just to be clear I am not trying to be rhetorical here, if there is an aspect of this I am overlooking please illuminate
[sic] character limit
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5388
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 20:37:00 -
[638] - Quote
Thanks for the clarification, Cross.
Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard.
I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick everyone else in the balls. Doing so could have unintended consequences.
My two cents. o7
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2980
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 21:08:00 -
[639] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Cross.
Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard.
I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences.
My two cents. o7
The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners.
All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread.
With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls?
(As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7)
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Booby Tuesdays
Tuesdays With Boobies
855
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 21:09:00 -
[640] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Cross.
Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard.
I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences.
My two cents. o7
This is pretty much exactly what I was failing to explain properly. I want equipment to be better in a logi's hands, and inferior in anothers, but I don't want the equipment to be useless to the point of not being able to fit anything. There are plenty of times that I will be carrying the ammo, links, and reps, but a squadmate will have the scanner on an Assault or Scout suit. With this proposal, that Assault or Scout would maybe be able to carry a basic scanner.
Day One Proto Minmatar Commando.
A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
|
|
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2982
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 21:35:00 -
[641] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Cross.
Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard.
I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences.
My two cents. o7 This is pretty much exactly what I was failing to explain properly. I want equipment to be better in a logi's hands, and inferior in anothers, but I don't want the equipment to be useless to the point of not being able to fit anything. There are plenty of times that I will be carrying the ammo, links, and reps, but a squadmate will have the scanner on an Assault or Scout suit. With this proposal, that Assault or Scout would maybe be able to carry a basic scanner.
My question remains the same however, if under the current status of the game those support needs can be readily met without the presence of a logistics fame in squad what incentives can make said frame of adequate value to field?
Assuming 6 equipment slots in a squad that covers most needs/configurations even discounting depot swap, and while the concept of "just buff the logi use of the gear" is solid in theory there is a certain level of how that needs to be crack for that to be a viable path.
How does one buff the active scanner above current levels to make the various types of it worth fielding without also breaking the scout role?
How does one buff uplinks without magnifying their frequently spammed status without also taking steps to make them harder to use? (the Amarr buff not applying if the merc is currently dead or in another suit also renders that racial buff a frequent non-factor but changing it to be persistent after death/swap would allow for a lot of swap-spam without actual use of the frame during game play).
Repair Tool, currently the most effective and meaningful racially buffed logistics equipment suffers from inverse scaling (potential WP goes down as efficacy of gear goes up) but discounting that it is also capped on earnings so the buffed status only means hitting cooldown faster and a further buff would simply result in more unrewarded active time on the field.
Stepping away from earnings entirely, even the repair tool as the strongest current logi use case is often seen as tactically superior on a scout frame despite the minmitar bonus (this statement is made from both feedback and my own observations in PC, FW, and pubs). Scouts and Assault are both, and even under the proposal will remain, more combat viable than a logistics frame, how then do alter reps so that a logi with reps is more worthwhile to field than a more combat viable frame with slightly weaker reps?
Nanohives, possibly the best case IMO for an increased buff as opposed to a restriction as I think the repeated nerfs to them have been a bit heavy handed. That having been said there are a few major flaws to a logi based hive buff
1. Their bonus works the same as the Amarr, and if it did not there would be little/no incentive to stay in the CalLogi once those hives are down.
2. CCP has been unwilling to rebuff hives due to their metrics, and I do not know if those have changed enough for this to be something they would even consider.
3. In many use cases outside of repper hives, a hive is as likely to be destroyed as fully consumed, even so many logi (if they do not spam) have hives remaining on their suit when they are killed. In the case of repper hives they are already quite potent at present. In both cases I am at a loss for how to buff their function/value in a way that is potent enough to warrant it as a role defining mod while not being brokenly OP.
In each case I am completely open to options and alternatives but the question at present devolves to this;
If logistics frames are going to be combat weaker than Heavies, Commandos, Scouts and Assaults, how much of a limitation of the other classes ability to self support is required/balanced to allow for a meaningful and competitive role?
In many cases logi (when fully support fit) need their counterparts in the other roles or they are not going to survive long, is it over the top for the reciprocal of 'other roles will need logi or not be supported very well' over the top/unfair?
0.02 ISK
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5391
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:23:00 -
[642] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Cross.
Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard.
I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences.
My two cents. o7 The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners. All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread. With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls? (As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7)
I can't speak for any other frames, so I'll restrict my response to Scoutly functions ...
Hives - Common to sniper, counter sniper, AV loadouts.
Uplinks - Common to rush, infiltration, exfiltration loadouts.
Scanners - Common to reconnaissance loadouts.
The loadouts above perform battlefield functions physically and functionally removed from those of embedded logistics; I agree that they're using the same EQ that Logis use, but they're using for different reasons and purposes. For example ...
When FC says "I need an Uplink behind Echo", a Scout is dispatched as he has best odds of delivering that Uplink. When FC says "Push Echo", Slayers and Slayer Support come in on that Uplink and push the objective; once a foothold is established Slayer Support reinforces the position with his own Uplinks.
In this scenario, I see two units using the same equipment, but I do not see overlapping roles or functions. I see squad play; I do not see Scout Logis.
On Scout Logi:
Boost PG/CPU requirements of rep tools; give Logis an innate PG/CPU discount. Solves Scout Logi problem; does not create other problems.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
3329
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:53:00 -
[643] - Quote
breaks my commando suits where my gear is so PG/CPU tight my options are needle or rep tool. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2983
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:00:00 -
[644] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:breaks my commando suits where my gear is so PG/CPU tight my options are needle or rep tool.
Which Rep tool (it will not effect the needle fit whatsoever) and how integral to your role would you say that rep tool is?
I am not contenting this will have a net impact of zero on current fittings. It will obviously have a net impact on current fittings and that impact will obviously be a constraining one, but for example moving from a Six Kin Triage Repair Tool to a BDR-8 Triage Repair Tool did not strike me as role breaking for a role which is not primarily support focused. Am a wrong? Is that 8/HPs enough of a gulf as to be role breaking? (If so please elaborate as to why )
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
3329
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:05:00 -
[645] - Quote
Very basic. PG/cpu is too tight for more than STD/MLT
I tend to opt for repping people while my armor rep modules get to work. Nine times out of ten the logis aren't repping. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2984
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:30:00 -
[646] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Cross.
Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard.
I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences.
My two cents. o7 The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners. All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread. With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls? (As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7) I can't speak for any other frames, so I'll restrict my response to Scoutly functions ... Hives - Common to sniper, counter sniper, AV loadouts. Uplinks - Common to rush, infiltration, exfiltration loadouts. Scanners - Common to reconnaissance loadouts.
Valid uses and I am in no way trying to prevent them from existing, the question in large part however is a matter of degree (which is the aspect the proposal seeks to address).
Examples, as per your above:
- Hives - Transition from Ishkone to K-2, net loss 48 clusters (down to 96 from 144)
- Uplinks - Transition from Viziam Flux to N-11/A Flux, net loss 5 spawns and a 29.30% longer spawn rate (at 8% base) than the Viziams -21.30% (all effecting the 15 sec base) that's a net shift of ~4.4 sec I believe, no?
- Scanners - Transition from Duvolle Quantum to A-45 Quantum, Cooldown improved by 10 sec, Target Visibility down by 5.00 sec, Scan precision 8 dB negative shift.
Are those performance gaps sever enough to destroy their use in Scoutly functions?
Adipem Nothi wrote:The loadouts above perform battlefield functions physically and functionally removed from those of embedded logistics; I agree that they're using the same EQ that Logis use, but they're using it differently. For example ...
When FC says "I need an Uplink behind Echo", a Scout is dispatched as he has best odds of delivering that Uplink. When FC says "Push Echo", Slayers and Slayer Support come in on that Uplink and push the objective; Slayer Support reinforces friendly foothold with his own Uplinks.
In this scenario, I see two units using the same equipment, but I do not see overlapping roles or functions. I see squad play; I do not see Scout Logis.
I concur that the presence of such is non-problematic and wish to firmly reiterate that I am not seeking to eliminate any such, I was off the view however that a single meta step down grade in gear quality (or upgrade in cost) would not be so burdensome as break those roles, while it would conversely allow the specialized logi some way to stand out a bit more.
If this degree of change is truly destructive to the role please elaborate as to how and why so that a more workable solution can be reached. o7
continued in pt 2
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2984
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:33:00 -
[647] - Quote
pt 2
Adipem Nothi wrote:
On Scout Logi:
Why not mimic the cloak? Make rep tools and/or needles very resource intensive; give Logis an innate PG/CPU discount. Breaks the Scout Logi; doesn't break anything else. What do you think?
Currently racial logistics paradigms as defined by CCP are;
- Cal - Hives
- Amarr - Links
- Gal - Scans
- Min - Reps
Now, while a case can be made for not doing things this way, indeed I made such a case prior to this method being adopted, I cannot guarantee how willing CCP would be do to a ground up overhaul on the nature of racial logistics bonuses and as such have been trying to 'color within the lines' to a great degree with my proposal.
Leaving that aside for the moment to address the idea directly here is what I see as a long time support player.
Pros
- Strong link to rep/revive for all logi, and thus strong role definition.
- Access to reps for all logi, which would be a net upgrade for 3/4 racial types as compared to current (general comment, as not all players in each race would want to adopt the new playstyle)
- Uniqueness of function - key to defining any role
Hurdles or drawbacks
- Injectors have little room for an actual buff (we already have 100% injectors for sale) leaving only a discount on fittings. They are currently one of the 'lighter' bits of equipment to fit thus the net effect would be fewer non-logi suits running needles, in a meta where logi mortality is already their gravest concern.
- Requires new racial buffs across the boards. - I'm not strictly opposed to this by any means, but it would require a substantial enough change that none of the three community derived proposals in the spreadsheet are workable.
- Role Bonus - If the role bonus is changed from the current -25% to all equipment to a higher reduction applied only to repair tool/injector even with increased cost on those items that is likely to be a net nerf to overall logi fittings as the net savings would have to be high enough to counter balance the now unmodified cost of any other equipment being run. Further it would eliminate or cripple use of most non-medic centric logi (or even 'off brand' medic centric logi like needle + rep hive Cals).
Now all of that being said this idea, focusing on giving all Logi reps as a core element and then giving them non-equipment centric bonuses as the racial, has merit and I'm more than happy to explore it, but it does open the door much wider to combat capable logi, and unlike the proposed method does not include built in mechanics to stop pure slayer builds run on logistics frames (which is not to say there may not be ideas for how to do that in this context, simply that I haven't come up with one during the time it took to type up this reply )
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2984
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:42:00 -
[648] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Very basic. PG/cpu is too tight for more than STD/MLT
I tend to opt for repping people while my armor rep modules get to work. Nine times out of ten the logis aren't repping.
Current numbers
- MLT - 22 CPU 5 PG
- STD - 15 CPU 5 PG
Numbers under +25% proposal
- MLT - 28 CPU 6 PG
- STD - 20 CPU 6 PG
So if you can fit the MLT then you could fit the STD under the proposal (unless your PG is 100% used up already).
This being the case, considering your tight fittings, would you say that this 5 CPU 1 PG increase in cost on the STD Tool is role breaking for your Commando?
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
WeapondigitX V7
The Exemplars
POD-SQUAD
168
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:53:00 -
[649] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:[quote=Adipem Nothi]Thanks for the clarification, Cross.
Last but not least, the +25% non-Logi EQ tax is steep. From a Scout's POV, this change will make it very difficult to fit decent EQ alongside cloak. This will affect all Scouts (not just Logi Scouts) and will impact low-level Scouts especially hard.
I'd urge caution on this point. Direct buffs to the Logi I can get definitely get behind, but I don't know that it's necessary, appropriate or safe to kick other classes in the balls. Frames are closer than ever to balance, and an indirect nerf on this scale could have unintended consequences.
My two cents. o7 The table is improperly labeled (my fault), the +25% change is only applied to links, rep tool, hives, and active scanners. All other equipment types remain unchanged in their fittings values <-- Bold added to try and clear up the misconception my labeling fail has created within this thread. With that clarified does your stance on how this effects scouts/other roles alter? Because those four pieces of equipment are (in my view) pretty definitively support items (not more general case items like the RE). Also the step up in costs is a shift which should put proposed ADV at roughly current PRO fittings levels, does that meta step have a large enough impact when applied to those four pieces of support equipment to qualify as kicking other roles in the balls? (As per usual, these are actual not rhetorical questions, I have this up for feedback so people can present new data to be included o7)
I can't speak for any other frames, so I'll restrict my response to Scoutly functions ...
Hives - Common to sniper, counter sniper, AV loadouts.
Uplinks - Common to rush, infiltration, exfiltration loadouts.
Scanners - Common to reconnaissance loadouts.
The loadouts above perform battlefield functions physically and functionally removed from those of embedded logistics; I agree that they're using the same EQ that Logis use, but they're using it differently. For example ...
When FC says "I need an Uplink behind Echo", a Scout is dispatched as he has best odds of delivering that Uplink. When FC says "Push Echo", Slayers and Slayer Support come in on that Uplink and push the objective; Slayer Support reinforces friendly foothold with his own Uplinks.
In this scenario, I see two units using the same equipment, but I do not see overlapping roles or functions. I see squad play; I do not see Scout Logis.
quote above^
I agree with these statements about scouts and assaults with uplinks and nanohives looking like they are performing different roles to a logi but using the same equipment for a different purpose.
To buff logi nanohives you could:
make the logi's get a skill bonus towards non repping hives which increases the range of the hives to roughly 30m. However add the disadvantage where the further allies are from the nanohives (the centre of radius of effect), the larger they will be penalized by having less ammo restored. Add the additional effects where the further allies are from the nanohive the less the nanohive will be drained and the relationship between clusters of nanites lost per ammo round given to allies will change in proportion to distance. more distance = less clusters of nanites lost per ammo round given.
this will mean that players will want to stay at the edge of the nanohive radius to get max volume of benefit over a defined period of time with smallest loss of nanite clusters. that method of thinking will briefly change during battle sometimes to needing to be closer to nanohive to keep up with changing ammunition demands over a defined period of time when the enemy is attacking with many enemy clones at once.
then allies will likely change back to original behavior when enemy is not attacking in large numbers.
this will allow logis to have a larger area of effect than other scouts or assaults using nanohives. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3191
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 00:01:00 -
[650] - Quote
I think the question that needs to be asked here is:
"Should Non-Logistics suits be able to fit Proto equipment without sacrificing anything else?"
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
|
|
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2984
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 00:06:00 -
[651] - Quote
WeapondigitX V7 wrote:
To buff logi nanohives you could:
make the logi's get a skill bonus towards non repping hives which increases the range of the hives to roughly 30m. However add the disadvantage where the further allies are from the nanohives (the centre of radius of effect), the larger they will be penalized by having less ammo restored. Add the additional effects where the further allies are from the nanohive the less the nanohive will be drained and the relationship between clusters of nanites lost per ammo round given to allies will change in proportion to distance. more distance = less clusters of nanites lost per ammo round given.
this will mean that players will want to stay at the edge of the nanohive radius to get max volume of benefit over a defined period of time with smallest loss of nanite clusters. that method of thinking will briefly change during battle sometimes to needing to be closer to nanohive to keep up with changing ammunition demands over a defined period of time when the enemy is attacking with many enemy clones at once.
then allies will likely change back to original behavior when enemy is not attacking in large numbers.
this will allow logis to have a larger area of effect than other scouts or assaults using nanohives.
This is very dynamic, and (though I hate how often I end up saying this  ) it sounds like a method worth considering for Legion but AFAIK would require recoding the behavior of the nanohives (i.e. client / patch level alteration) rather than changing the values of currently existing behavior (i.e. server / hotfix level alteration, which is where we currently sit development wise).
I know how hard and even frustrating it can be to simultaneously think outside the box for innovation and side the box for possible function but that is the context we find ourselves in when seeking role balance currently within Dust 514.
0.02 ISK
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2984
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 00:07:00 -
[652] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:I think the question that needs to be asked here is:
"Should Non-Logistics suits be able to fit Proto equipment without sacrificing anything else?"
Agreed.
If answered "no" the conclusion is rather straight forward.
If answered "yes" the follow up question becomes "what mechanical metric should be used to define the support/logistics role if not equipment?"
0.02 ISK
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5392
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 00:44:00 -
[653] - Quote
@ Cross / Pokey
I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade).
I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit.
It seems much more likely to me we're talking about downgrading from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot.
Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2987
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 00:52:00 -
[654] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Cross / Pokey
I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade).
I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit.
It seems much more likely to me we're talking about downgrading from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot.
Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit.
Hummm...
*stares at drawing board* *kicks it a few times to shake inspiration loose*
There's got to be an angle to approach this from...
EDIT: What about a tiered approach to that upscale? If instead of a blanket increase to 'the big 4' at all levels it was something like
- STD - 10%
- ADV - 15%
- PRO - 25%
or
- STD - 5%
- ADV - 10%
- PRO - 20%
The above numbers are illustrative as much as anything as I haven't plugged them in at all, but how tight are these fittings, would a method such as the above listed provide more viable wiggle room?
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3192
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 00:58:00 -
[655] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Cross / Pokey
I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade).
I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit.
For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot.
Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit.
I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms
Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5392
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 01:13:00 -
[656] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Cross / Pokey
I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade).
I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit.
For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot.
Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak?
I have two Uplink fits.
The first is used start-of-match; I rush in, toss an uplink or two along the way, hack a point, toss another uplink or two then suicide. It has 2 pro uplinks, 3 kincats, 1 card reg, 1 shield, 1 empty high, pro knives, no primary and no grenade and exactly 1 PG to spare.
The second is used for infiltration (get uplink behind enemy lines) and exfiltration (get bluedots out of spawn trap). It has two damps, two kincats, 2 shields, pro uplink, adv cloak, adv combat rifle, pro knives, no grenade and exactly 1 CPU to spare.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3192
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 01:54:00 -
[657] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Cross / Pokey
I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade).
I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit.
For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot.
Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak? I have two Uplink fits. The first is used start-of-match; I rush in, toss an uplink or two along the way, hack a point, toss another uplink or two then suicide. It has 2 pro uplinks, 3 kincats, 1 card reg, 1 shield, 1 empty high, pro knives, no primary and no grenade and exactly 1 PG to spare. The second is used for infiltration (get uplink behind enemy lines) and exfiltration (get bluedots out of spawn trap). It has two damps, two kincats, 2 shields, pro uplink, adv cloak, adv combat rifle, pro knives, no grenade and exactly 1 CPU to spare.
Are all your fitting/optimizations maxed?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5393
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 02:16:00 -
[658] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Cross / Pokey
I'm willing to bet that if you check the numbers, you'll find that proto Scouts aren't typically running proto equipment. In the cases where they are, they are likely running a single-purpose fit and making big sacrifices elsewhere to do so (e.g. my Uplink runner has no primary weapon and no grenade).
I'm level 5 in Hives, Uplinks, Remotes, Active Scanners. I can count on two hands the number of times I've used proto hives or remotes. And I don't plan to. They're too expensive and too tough to fit.
For the vast majority of Scoutly fits and functions, it seems more likely to me we're talking about a downgrade from ADV EQ to STD and in the case of low-level Scouts, STD EQ to an empty slot.
Edit: As far as Active Scanners go, PRO are the only ones worth using when running forward recon; if I couldn't fit a prototype scanner, I very likely wouldn't run my forward recon fit. I actually have not done any recent scout fits, I was simply asking the question at hand in clear terms Now when you say that, are you running a cloak at the same time? Or two equipment? And in that case, what grade of cloak? I have two Uplink fits. The first is used start-of-match; I rush in, toss an uplink or two along the way, hack a point, toss another uplink or two then suicide. It has 2 pro uplinks, 3 kincats, 1 card reg, 1 shield, 1 empty high, pro knives, no primary and no grenade and exactly 1 PG to spare. The second is used for infiltration (get uplink behind enemy lines) and exfiltration (get bluedots out of spawn trap). It has two damps, two kincats, 2 shields, pro uplink, adv cloak, adv combat rifle, pro knives, no grenade and exactly 1 CPU to spare. Are all your fitting/optimizations maxed?
Nope. Pushing 60M SP and still room to grow :-)
But we're way off course, Pokey. You guys want to make Logis more useful. I can understand that. Can we not find a way to do that without shafting other EQ users?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3192
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 02:23:00 -
[659] - Quote
I think in general the concept is to make Logi's more valuable in general by making them more capable of fitting high end equipment over other suits. The devil is course in the details, so tweaking the numbers is really the nitty gritty part of it.
I'm curious to see if other suits suffer with equipment as much as the scouts seem to. The increase to the reduction bonus for the Logi is a no brainer for me. As for increasing the cost of said equipment, it comes down to how much or at all. I think in general the Uplinks are probably the most unforgiving of all equipment, so that one needs to be looked at most closely. Do you typically run equipment other than Uplinks and Cloaks on your scout? I'm curious to know if its an equipment cost issue, of if its just an uplink cost issue.
*is lazy and on his phone, thus not wanting to deal with protofits atm*
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5393
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 03:06:00 -
[660] - Quote
Yes, proto uplinks are indeed tough to fit. No, I typically do not run Uplinks. The previously described fits perform niche functions; they are not what I'd consider to be "general use" fits. The EQ on my "general use" fits vary by race and function ...
AM, CA Scout - Typically Ranged
MN, GA Scout - Typically CQC
Ranged fits typically employ advanced cloak, pro active scanner or adv hives. CQC fits typically employ advanced cloak, basic remotes or adv hives. Proto Hives and REs are too tough to fit for general use. Can't speak for needles or reppers (I've never used them).
For what its worth, I'm concerned about how this proposal would impact low-level Scouts. Recently skilled 1-5 both the MN Scout and the AM Scout. For levels 1-3, I ran mainly BSC remotes, compact hives or an A-19 active scanner. All fittings were down to the wire. At level 4, I was finally able to fit cloak. On Advanced Minmatar, cloak was all I could fit. On Advanced Amarr, I could fit it alongside a basic hive or remote.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |